How much Christians know about Bible? What about Muslims?

alapiana1 said:
You said that the verse I quoted about the Muslim state is not in reference to what I spoke about then what is it speaking of if not respecting non-Muslims. It sounds like you are trying to add insult to injury, but I am not offended, because I know there are Christians that know more than I about the Bible and history maybe even some non-Christians as well. You, however, wouldn't be one of them.
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Whatever.
 
Keltoi said:
I wasn't referring to this thread alone, and to be honest the question was more rhetorical than anything. What turns me off most about this sub-forum, even though I'm addicted to it, is that many seem to feel the need to "prove" another faith wrong. Mainly from Muslims, to be honest about it. I mean, I could go around the forum calling Muslims "disbelievers" and followers of a false prophet, but that isn't in my nature. Plus, it wouldn't accomplish anything but annoying the heck out of people. Of course we are going to disagree, but I have no interest in bad mouthing the Muslim faith, because I am quite secure in my faith.

Just had to rant for a bit. None of this personal to you at all.
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We do not need to prove our faith to no one. We only state our beliefs just like you state yours. That's all.
 
Grace Seeker said:
Then you must also think that we worship a different God than do you. And I do not just mean those you call partners (Jesus and the Holy Spirit), based on what you said, even our understanding of God the Father is different than your understanding of Allah.
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Yes, I would have to agree with you. To deviate from believing in the One God without father, mother, son, daughter, partner, or equal is to believe in a different God. We in no respect attribute divinity to Jesus. If you retranslated the term Father into Lord and left off the Jesus and the Holy Ghost part, then we would be seeing eye-to-eye. To say Father implies having offspring which all Muslims staunchly deny!
 
Grace Seeker said:
So, since this thread is "How much do Christians/Muslims know about the Bible?", let's discuss these issues based on the Bible. And based on the Bible that we have access to, not the one you think was once written, but cannot produce for anyone to actually see what it teaches, but you may use any extant version of the Bible including variant texts if you so desire.

I will accept that you see Christians as polythiests. It sounds like you are willing to accept that Christians see themselves as monotheists. Now, how does the Bible see Christians? I think we are going to end up with different conclusions still, but let us resolve to base those conclusions on what we find in the present (even if corrupted) Bible, not the Qur'an or Hadith and not later writings by early Church fathers like the folks at Nicea.
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As for my quotations from the bible: You have seen that I quote only from the sources you accept and not from some obscure books. All my quotations are in the bible that you read. However this is not the point.

Yes I do accept that Christians consider themselves as monotheists and all muslims accept that. What we do not agree is what you uphold as monotheism. Just like you say, we will bring verses from the bible (any version you choose) and still disagree as to the meaning of such verses. So I think that such discussion would not come to an end.
 
Grace Seeker said:
Keltoi, I'm going to put this out there in the public, not to speak against you, but as a reminder to us all and to do a bit of reflection. I do agree that there are those on these forums that seem to have a need to "prove" things to others. But I don't know that this attitude is dominated by one faith more than others. Yes, you and I run into more with Muslims than with Christians, but I think there are several reasons for this.
1) There simply are more Muslims than Christians or any other faith on this forum. No surpirse there. But if even a small percentage of Muslims have this personality, we are going to encounter if more frequently than the same attitude being expressed by Christians just by the sheer force of aggregate numbers.
2) Given that we are Christians, you and I are going to be more sensitive to Muslim comments and more oblivious to similar worded Christians comments.
3) I'm also on a Catholic Forum, and I find that Catholics there try to "prove" things to Protestants. In fact, I get the feeling there that Catholics hate Protestants, even though in real life I have wonderful relationships with a wide variety of Catholics, including all the Catholic priests and nuns in any community in which I have ever lived. So, it may be a function of the internet that produces these types of conversations.
4) Compared to some of the heat I get from my brothers and sisters in Christ on some predominately Christian forums, the "attacks" here are mild. It seems that the closer two people are to thinking similarly, the more important it is to get the "other" into final and complete agreement. Thus we argue of minutia with great passion, and allow glaring differences to pass with cursory politeness.

OK. End of anti-rant. And meant no more personally than the original rant was. :D
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I agree with your coments and wish to add that any member of a religion or way of thinking for that matter, will stick firmly to his/her beliefs and will speak from that position. It might seem to the others that he/she is trying to prove his/her beliefs or that he/she is right and so on but in fact it is only affirmation of one's beliefs. This will also be found within the same religion no exeption to any.
 
alapiana1 said:
Maybe this will help clarify it. We really don't need your advice about what we Christians believe. We don't tell you what you believe. We accept what you tell us you believe. Being on this Islamic forum for us non-Muslims (Christians) is like being in a Muslim state. Are you not going against the Qur'an by dishonoring us non-Muslims? You may ask how? Polytheism is idolatry and an abomination to God and Christian alike. If we say we believe in one true God, you have no right before God, man, Bible or the Qur'an to say otherwise. It is written, Judge not lest you be judged. Allah himself will judge and be against any Muslim who disrespects a non- Muslim in a Muslim state. Qur’an, 2:256. I find it disrespectful and dishonoring to keep coming against what we say we believe about God being ONE. You can believe that the Bible teaches there are three Gods, but you can’t tell us what we believe about God without being very disrespectful and very accountable to God for your words. :enough!:
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If you will remember, we get what we say about Christian theology from the Quran which we accept as the inerrant Word of Allah. Therefore, we are in no way disrespecting or dishonoring you. We are trying to show you the errors of Christian belief and to show you the Truth of the Oneness of Allah.
 
Woodrow said:
Arguments about religion do tend to become heated. The very nature of what we are debating is of such high importance to each of us, that we view any difference of opinion as a personal attack against that which we hold and cherish.

As Muslims and Christians we probably have it the most difficult as our beliefs are so similar. It is a simple fact of common knowledge that if either of us can prove to the other that our belief is correct, it is a statement that the other is false.

The biggest problem is we have no common basis of reference for out beliefs. Within Christianity there is a certain degree of validity in stating which denomination is correct as all of the denominations are based upon the same scripture, so it is simply a giving of verification as to what the scriptures say.

While with a debate between coming down to the validity of Islam or Christianity it becomes a question of which "Book" is the true scripture. Since we all place our belief to a very large degree in faith, it is nearly impossible to satisfactorily prove to the other that our individual acceptance of what is the "Word of God(swt) is the true word. In essence when I say that the Qur'an is the truth it is a normal connotation for a Christian to hear that as saying the Bible is false and vice versa. The connotation soon falls into the realm of being heard as a statement of "You are a liar." No body wants to be called a liar so the arguments fall into personal clashes rather than an exchange of facts.

It is very difficult for any of us to keep things on the path of trying to offer proof as to why we are correct, without it sounding like a statement of "You are wrong." We all tend to fall into the final argument of saying, "Prove it" Yet we have no common reference of proof.

Face to face debates are much less heated as often the person we debate with is a close friend or acquaintance. Over the internet we tend to loose sight of the other persons sincerity and any knowledge of the person's "goodness" we become very mechanical and try to place it into the realm of debating with a machine and forgetting, that on the other side of the monitor there is a live person who is probably a very decent, good person.
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Well said.
 
Grace Seeker said:
Is that what those others you call polytheists say? Or do they actually say that they do have more than one God? Maybe I haven't listened to Hindu descriptions of God well enough. I haven't heard them say that there is only one God.

Of course, I found 99 names for God in the Qur'an, maybe you aren't really a monotheist either. Who are all those other gods besides Allah?
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You clearly misunderstand. These 99 names or attributes of Allah are not 99 different Gods. These attributes are in the Quran whereby we will have some knowledge of Who it is that we worship. I have copied this list from an earlier post that I forgot to document.

ALLAH (The Name Of God)
الله

الذى لا اله الا هو

AR-RAHMAN (The Beneficent)
الرحمن

AR-RAHIM (The Mercifull)
الرحيم

AL-MALIK (The Sovereign Lord)
الملك


AL-QUDDUS (The Holy)

القدوس

AS-SALAM (The Source Of Peace)
السلام

AL-MU'MIN (The Guardian Of Faith)
المؤمن

AL-MUHAYMIN (The Protector)
المهيمن

AL-AZIZ (The Mighty)

العزيز



AL-JABBAR (The Compeller)

الجبار


AL-MUTAKABBIR (The Majestic)

المتكبر

AL-KHALIQ (The Creator)
الخالق

AL-BARI (The Evolver)
البارىء


AL-MUSAWWIR (The Fashioner)

المصور


AL-GHAFFAR (The Forgiver)

الغفار


AL-QAHHAR (The Subduer)

القهار


AL-WAHHAB (The Bestover)
الوهاب

AR-RAZZAQ (The Provider)
الرزاق

AL-FATTAH (The Opner)
الفتاح

AL-ALIM (The All Knowning)
العليم

AL-QABID(The Constrictor)
القابض

AL-BASIT (The Expender)
الباسط

AL-KHAFID (The Abaser)
الخافض

AR-RAFI (The Exalter)
الرافع

AL-MUIZZ (The Honourer)
المعز

AL-MUZILL (The Dishonourer)
المذل

AS-SAMIE (The All Hearing)
السميع

AL-BASIR (The All Seeing)
البصير

AL-HAKAM (The Judge)
الحكم

AL-ADL (The Just)
العدل

AL-LATIF (The Subtle One)
اللطيف

AL-KHABIR (The Aware)
الخبير

AL-HALIM (The Forbearing One)
الحليم

AL-AZIM (The Great One)
العظيم


AL-GHAFUR (The All-Forgiving)
الغفور

ASH-SHAKUR (The Appreciative)
الشكور

AL-ALI (The Most High)
العلى

AL-KABIR (The Most Great)
الكبير

AL-HAFIZ (The Preserver)
الحفيظ

AL-MUQIT (The Maintainer)

المقيت


AL-HASEEB (The Reckoner)

الحسيب


AL-JALIL (The Sublime One)

الجليل


AL-KARIM (The Generous One)

الكريم


AR-RAQIB (The Watchfull)
الرقيب

AL-MUJIB (The Responsive)

المجيب


AL-WASI (The All-Embracing)

الواسع


AL-HAKEEM (The Wise)

الحكيم


AL-WADUD (The Loving)

الودوود


AL-MAJEED (The Most Glorious One)
المجيد

AL-BA'ITH (The Resurrector)
الباعث

ASH-SHAHEED (The Witness)

الشهيد


AL-HAQQ (The Truth)
الحق

AL-WAKIL (The Trustee)

الوكيل


AL-QAWI (The Most Strong)
القوى

AL-MATEEN (The Firm One)

المتين


AL-WALI (The Protecting Friend)
الولى

AL-HAMEED (The Praiseworthy)
الحميد

AL-MUHSI (The Reckoner)

المحصى


AL-MUBDI (The Originator)

المبدىء


AL-MU'ID (The Restorer)

المعيد


AL-MUHYI (The Giver Of Life)
المحى

AL-MUMIT (The Creator Of Death)
المميت

AL-HAYEE (The Alive)
الحى

AL-QAYYUM (The Self-subsisting)
القيوم

AL-WAJID (The Finder)
الواجد


AL-MAJID (The Noble)

الماجد


AL-WAHID (The Unique)
الواحد

AL-SAMAD (The Eternal)

الصمد


AL-QADIR (The Able)

القادر


AL-MUQTADIR (The Powerful)
المقتدر

AL-MUQADDIM (The Expediter)
المقدم


AL-MU'AKHKHIR (The Delayer)
المؤخر

AL-AWWAL (The First)
الأول

AL-AAKHIR (The Last)
الآخر

AZ-ZAHIR (The Manifest)
الظاهر

AL-BATIN (The Hiddeen)
الباطن

AL-WALI (The Governor)
الوالى

AL-MUTA'ALI (The Most Exalted)
المتعالى

AL-BARR (The Source Of All Goodness)
البر

AL-TAWWAB (The Acceptor Of Repentance)
التواب

AL-MUNTAQIM (The Avenger)
المنتقم

AL-'AFUW (The Pardoner)
العفو

AR-RAOOF (The Compassionate)
الرؤوف

MALIK-UL-MULK (The Eternal Owner Of Sovereignty)
مالك الملك


ZUL-JALAL-E-WAL-IKRAM (The Lord Of Majesty and Bounty)
ذوالجلال والاكرام

AL-MUQSIT (The Equitable)
المقسط

AL-JAAMAY (The Gatherer)
الجامع

AL-GHANI (The Self-Sufficient)
الغنى

AL-MUGHNI (The Enricher)
المغنى

AL-MAANAY (The Preventer)
المانع

AD_DAARR (The Distresser)
الضار

AN-NAAFAY (The Propitious)
النافع

AN-NOOR (The Light)
النور

AL-HAADI (The Guide)
الهادى

AL-BADI (The Incomparable)
البديع

AL-BAQI (The Everlasting)
الباقى

AL-WARIS (The Supreme Inheritor)
الوارث

AR-RASHEED (The Guide To The Right Path)
الرشيد

AS-SABOOR (The Patient)
الصبور
 
MustafaMc said:
Yes, I would have to agree with you. To deviate from believing in the One God without father, mother, son, daughter, partner, or equal is to believe in a different God. We in no respect attribute divinity to Jesus. If you retranslated the term Father into Lord and left off the Jesus and the Holy Ghost part, then we would be seeing eye-to-eye. To say Father implies having offspring which all Muslims staunchly deny!
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Given your pre-Islamic faith, I would hope you can see the humor in your suggestion. Christians do use the word "Lord", but most frequently we use it with regard to Jesus. I have a feeling that a Muslim would have a hard time seeing eye-to-eye with a faith that would equate a divine/human being with Allah. (Though that is exactly what we do do and why the two faiths are incompatible.)
 
Grace Seeker said:
OK. We'll do away with the Trinity. I don't need that descriptor. But be aware that while the Bible says there is just one God, that the Bible also does call the Father God, the Bible does call the Son God, and the Bible does call the Holy Spirit God.

So, as a Muslim you can just say the Bible is wrong if you want. Fine. Go ahead. But I'm not going to change my belief that Jesus is God. It wasn't Paul who came up with that. It was the disciples who first acknowledged.

If you think that Paul invented it, I guess that just shows how little you know about the Bible. He actually says relatively little about it compared to the rest of the New Testament.
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Here we clearly differ to the nth degree. We Muslims in no manner, shape or form attribute divinity to Jesus or to any other human.
 
Grace Seeker said:
Given your pre-Islamic faith, I would hope you can see the humor in your suggestion. Christians do use the word "Lord", but most frequently we use it with regard to Jesus. I have a feeling that a Muslim would have a hard time seeing eye-to-eye with a faith that would equate a divine/human being with Allah. (Though that is exactly what we do do and why the two faiths are incompatible.)
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I see no humor in what I wrote. When I was a Christian, my faith was in Jesus and his death on the cross. Now my faith is simply in the One God without the Christian baggage of Son and Holy Spirit. In this sense, I believe that the One that Jesus prayed to in the Garden of Gethsemane is in fact Allah!

There is only one Lord according to Islam - Quran 1:2 Allah All praise is for Allah, the 'Rabb' (Lord) of the Worlds.
.
 
MustafaMc said:
You clearly misunderstand. These 99 names or attributes of Allah are not 99 different Gods. These attributes are in the Quran whereby we will have some knowledge of Who it is that we worship.
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No, you misunderstand the tongue-in-cheek nature of my previous post. I DO know that the 99 names are not different God, but many attributes of the one God. My point was that in ascribing Fatherhood, Sonship, and the character of the Spirit to God we Christians are doing much the same thing. We have not 99 different names for God, we have 3 because we have encountered God in these three different ways. Now, yes, it does get a bit more involved than that, but the essence of where the concept of the Trinity comes is more similar to your own views than you might realize.
 
Salaam/peace;


Grace Seeker said:
... We have not 99 different names for God, we have 3 .
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do Christians call holy spirit as begotten son of God ? To my knowledge , NO. Do Chrisitans Call Jesus (p) as Father ? Again ans is No.

So , it's clear that Christians have different names for different dieties ( as God is only one , i want to use the word dieties ....i guess , it's ok ? )
 
Muslim Woman said:
Salaam/peace;




do Christians call holy spirit as begotten son of God ? To my knowledge , NO. Do Chrisitans Call Jesus (p) as Father ? Again ans is No.

So , it's clear that Christians have different names for different dieties ( as God is only one , i want to use the word dieties ....i guess , it's ok ? )
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The word dieties is a perfectly accetable word. But the various persons you speak of all are one and the same diety (singular).
 
Grace Seeker said:
No, you misunderstand the tongue-in-cheek nature of my previous post. I DO know that the 99 names are not different God, but many attributes of the one God. My point was that in ascribing Fatherhood, Sonship, and the character of the Spirit to God we Christians are doing much the same thing. We have not 99 different names for God, we have 3 because we have encountered God in these three different ways. Now, yes, it does get a bit more involved than that, but the essence of where the concept of the Trinity comes is more similar to your own views than you might realize.
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I understand your point, but at no point has the Merciful ever prayed to the Holy and neither does the Majestic sit beside the Forgiver. When has the Great One descended in the form of a dove, lighting upon shoulder or head of the Judge?

I hope that you see the distinction that I am making between the Muslim and Christian point of view.
 
MustafaMc said:
I understand your point, but at no point has the Merciful ever prayed to the Holy and neither does the Majestic sit beside the Forgiver. When has the Great One descended in the form of a dove, lighting upon shoulder or head of the Judge?

I hope that you see the distinction that I am making between the Muslim and Christian point of view.
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Yes, which is one of the reasons I did not say that they concepts are identical.
 
Muslim Woman said:
Salaam/ peace;



ummm , confusing :blind:

so , holy Spirit is begotten son of God ?
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No, the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. But now I am using technical terms. Even the concept of "begotten" as we think of it with respect to human "begottenness" is not appropriate for God. God the Son was not begotten in the same way that human sons are begotten.

But again, even in saying that we are not talking about three separate beings. It is just one being. The Holy Spirit has always, from before the beginning, existed as God.

Here, this will either help a bit, or make things incredibly more confusing:
When most humans think of a Father and Son, they think of it from the human persective. A person is born, grows to a certain age and then becomes a father or a son. So, we tend to think of the father as being before the son.

But look again. When does this individual become a Father? Not until the moment that the person has a Son (or daughter). So Fatherhood is actually dependent on Sonship.

Now, we in the Church (not Islam) talk about the eternal Fatherhood of God. That is that God has always been a Father, since, again, before the beginnig of time. What I mean before the beginnig of time, is that there was not a time when God was not. But if God is also the eternal Father, then that means that there was not a time when God was not a Father. And for that to be true, then it follows that there is also not a time in which there was not the Son, for God could not be a Father absence the presence of the Son. The are co-eternal together. And just as God has always been both Father and Son, so God has always been Spirit. This is who God is. One being who has always been all of this and all at the same time (or before time).
 
Grace Seeker said:
Yes, which is one of the reasons I did not say that they concepts are identical.
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Yes, and this difference clearly points out the reason why Muslims view Christians as polytheistic in their belief about God.

BTW I believe that the list of Names was originally posted by Muslim Woman.
 
Grace Seeker said:
Keltoi, I'm going to put this out there in the public, not to speak against you, but as a reminder to us all and to do a bit of reflection. I do agree that there are those on these forums that seem to have a need to "prove" things to others. But I don't know that this attitude is dominated by one faith more than others. Yes, you and I run into more with Muslims than with Christians, but I think there are several reasons for this.
1) There simply are more Muslims than Christians or any other faith on this forum. No surpirse there. But if even a small percentage of Muslims have this personality, we are going to encounter if more frequently than the same attitude being expressed by Christians just by the sheer force of aggregate numbers.
2) Given that we are Christians, you and I are going to be more sensitive to Muslim comments and more oblivious to similar worded Christians comments.
3) I'm also on a Catholic Forum, and I find that Catholics there try to "prove" things to Protestants. In fact, I get the feeling there that Catholics hate Protestants, even though in real life I have wonderful relationships with a wide variety of Catholics, including all the Catholic priests and nuns in any community in which I have ever lived. So, it may be a function of the internet that produces these types of conversations.
4) Compared to some of the heat I get from my brothers and sisters in Christ on some predominately Christian forums, the "attacks" here are mild. It seems that the closer two people are to thinking similarly, the more important it is to get the "other" into final and complete agreement. Thus we argue over minutia with great passion, and allow glaring differences to pass with cursory politeness.

OK. End of anti-rant. And meant no more personally than the original rant was. :D
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I agree with you. I think I was becoming slightly annoyed. It would have been better just to leave the forum for awhile and come back with a smile. Sometimes rants are good for mental health..:D

I realize we are in a Muslim forum. I don't expect Muslims to accept the Christian faith or agree on the nature of God as Christians see Him. I'm sure when Muslims visit a Christian forum they too feel fairly uncomfortable with the way their faith is characterized there.
 

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