Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

[Malaikah]

I see "devotion", not "worship".

Unfortunately from an Islamic perspective it is worship and setting up partners with Allah.

You might not agree but you don't have to.

 

[MustafaMc]

I see "devotion", not "worship".

Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Main Entry: de·vo·tion
Pronunciation: di-'vO-sh&n, dE-
Function: noun
1 a : religious fervor : PIETY b : an act of prayer or private worship -- usually used in plural c : a religious exercise or practice other than the regular corporate worship of a congregation

Any way you dice it or slice it - it is still worship which should be reserved for the One God.

BTW Catholics also pray to "Patron Saints" for help and protection.

http://www.catholic.org/saints/patron.php
"Patron saints are chosen as special protectors or guardians over areas of life. These areas can include occupations, illnesses, churches, countries, causes -- anything that is important to us."

It seems that you and Christians can't see the distinction that Muslims make between polytheism and monotheism.

Muslims recite the Surah al-Fatiha (Quran 1:1-7) at least 17 times every day with one of the ayat being O'Allah! You Alone we worship and You Alone we call on for help.

Most Muslims also recite in their prayers:

Quran 112:1-4 Say: He is Allah the One and Only; Allah is the Self-Sufficient (independent of all, while all are dependent on Him); He begets not, nor is He begotten; And there is none comparable to Him.

These 2 passages clearly define what monotheism actually is.

Quran 3:64 Say: "O people of the Book! Let us get together on what is common between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah; that we shall not associate any partners with Him; that we shall not take from among ourselves any lords beside Allah." If they reject your invitation then tell them: "Bear witness that we are Muslims (who have surrendered to Allah)."

 

[ummzayd]

masha'Allah brother I think you nailed it, alhamdulillah!

 

[Trumble]

Any way you dice it or slice it - it is still worship which should be reserved for the One God.

Slicing and dicing by ignoring the the "religious exercise or practice" bit, you mean? Worship is a religious exercise or practice, but not all religious exercises or practice are worship. Would you like me to produce a few definitions of "devotion", even in the religious sense, that don't mention "worship" at all?

All that is just playing with words, anyway. Call it 'worship' if you like, but it is not the same activity that that word means in relation to God. Obviously Islam thinks such activity inappropriate, which is fair enough.. but the original suggestion was that Mary was worshipped as a god. That is not the case.

 

[Redeemed]

I don't see it that way. He is not Muslim and I do not expect him to be familiar with the Qur'an or the Ahadith. I can understand how there would be some confusion for a Non-Muslim over the words we use.

I do disagree with his beliefs and believe he is in error. But, I also believe he is very sincere as to what he does believe.

Because I disagree with his beliefs does not mean I believe he would intentionaly say something invalid.

I appreciate that. You are gracious. To be honest with you, if I say something that is not true, it is because of ignorance, not of any intention to hurt. It would still hurt me to think that I misrepresented your beliefs. I am trying to learn Islam so that I don't make these mistakes. I have learned so much on this forum. I knew nothing about Islam before except that they pray 5 times a day and believe in Allah. I feel, however, there is a built in mechanism in Islam that would cause Muslims to hate anyone they see trying to pull them away from what they believe to be true. Unfortunately, however, I have tasted this spirit (not from you). The difference I sense, in practical ways, between our doctrines or religions are the fruit I see in the lives of Christians and Muslims. Of course there are exceptions to the rule on both sides. But I would never get offended or threatened if one tries to pull me away from Christianity; moreover, it is no secret that I want not only you but everyone on this forum to come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and to see Him for who He really is in the Bible. There are certain Muslim brothers that send me secret e-mails stating that they know my stealthy mission to deceive Muslims. They said that most Muslims do not see my hidden agenda except for them. My intentions are not to deceive you or anyone. I have been out in the open regarding my intentions and if there are Muslims or Christians that are weak in the faith, maybe this forum is not the place for them. Just the same, I appreciate your understanding and kind words.:thumbs_up

 

[Redeemed]

last time I looked Catholics were in the majority (by a long way) in the Christian world. and Catholics worship Mary. And a god is 'one who is worthy of worship'. so they take Mary as a god.

the part of qur'an you quoted doesn't mention bible or trinity. as usual, no mistake there. it is entirely correct and even precise. all praise belongs to Allah ta'ala.

peace

I was born and raised Catholic, but I am not a Catholic. I am a follower of Jesus Christ. You might find it helpful to read about the reformation. The Catholics started off correctly, but they didn't heed Jesus' warning that men will come in and bring traditions that make the law of God to no affect. The fact that the Catholics are in the majority means nothing. To me, one with God is the majority and between us, I believe that would be me.

 

[Woodrow]

I believe your statement:

. I feel, however, there is a built in mechanism in Islam that would cause Muslims to hate anyone they see trying to pull them away from what they believe to be true.

Is true.

We do believe that as Muslims we are on the true path to heaven and that any person trying to sway a Muslim from Islam is leading the member into hellfire. It is impossible to not get angry at words we see as an attempt to lead our brothers and sister into hellfire, even if the words are spoken out of ignorance.


But, that also applies to Christians who firmly believe what they do. Would I not be at least a little bit condemned if I walked into any Christian church and tried to lead the members to the Truth of Islam?

 

[Redeemed]

I believe your statement:



Is true.

We do believe that as Muslims we are on the true path to heaven and that any person trying to sway a Muslim from Islam is leading the member into hellfire. It is impossible to not get angry at words we see as an attempt to lead our brothers and sister into hellfire, even if the words are spoken out of ignorance.


But, that also applies to Christians who firmly believe what they do. Would I not be at least a little bit condemned if I walked into any Christian church and tried to lead the members to the Truth of Islam?

We are to love the sinner and the deceived one not their sin, but when we make a person the object of our hatred whether their purpose is out of ignorance or deliberate, we sin against God and know not God. To the Christian, God is love and no one or nothing can separate us from the love of God. It is that same question of security that we have as true followers of Christ that appears to be absent in Islam.

 

[Redeemed]

Hello, I was brought up a catholic and was certainly taught to pray to her statue, praise her and ask her for things. what else do you call that? it is certainly not right to put her on a par with 'other saints'.

The whole month of May was devoted to the worship of Mary in my (& all other catholic) schools.

peace

Sorry Sister,
Some Catholics are closer to the truth than others, but there are many that do worship Mary. I have been around long enough to see it. In other words, Mary worship is not Biblical. No offense intented.
God bless U

 

[vpb]

Sorry Sister,
Some Catholics are closer to the truth than others, but there are many that do worship Mary. I have been around long enough to see it. No offense intented.
God bless U

well, if you worship God and son of God, it's not to be suprised that they worship the mother of the son of God, (wife of God). Why do you think your belief is smarter than theirs?

Astagfirullah.

 

[Woodrow]

We are to love the sinner and the deceived one not their sin, but when we make a person the object of our hatred whether their purpose is out of ignorance or deliberate, we sin against God and know not God. To the Christian, God is love and no one or nothing can separate us from the love of God. It is that same question of security that we have as true followers of Christ that appears to be absent in Islam.

Idealisticaly this is true, We are to love the sinner and the deceived one not their sin, but when we make a person the object of our hatred whether their purpose is out of ignorance or deliberate, we sin against God and know not God., but as Humans we react as humans. I do my best not to hate anyone for any reason, yet to be honest, I have met people I have honestly hated. I regret my weakness for those times, but I understand why I felt that way and do accept the fact I have human short comings.

It is that same question of security that we have as true followers of Christ that appears to be absent in Islam

I can see that you have not grasped the degree of security and assurance we do have as Muslims. We know that Allah(swt) is all just and merciful. We do know that he will punish us no more than what our sins warrant, but that out of his goodness and forgiveness he will reward us countless times more than what we could ever be worthy of. We trust in His word without any question and know fully that he will guide us as we walk on the path to Jannah.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

well, if you worship God and son of God, it's not to be suprised that they worship the mother of the son of God, (wife of God). Why do you think your belief is smarter than theirs?

Astagfirullah.

bro , u forgot to mention '' mother of God .''

yes , Astagfirallah.

May God show us all the straight path & keep us away from associate partner with God Almighty.


Ameen , Ameen , Ameen

 

[Redeemed]

Idealisticaly this is true, We are to love the sinner and the deceived one not their sin, but when we make a person the object of our hatred whether their purpose is out of ignorance or deliberate, we sin against God and know not God., but as Humans we react as humans. I do my best not to hate anyone for any reason, yet to be honest, I have met people I have honestly hated. I regret my weakness for those times, but I understand why I felt that way and do accept the fact I have human short comings.



I can see that you have not grasped the degree of security and assurance we do have as Muslims. We know that Allah(swt) is all just and merciful. We do know that he will punish us no more than what our sins warrant, but that out of his goodness and forgiveness he will reward us countless times more than what we could ever be worthy of. We trust in His word without any question and know fully that he will guide us as we walk on the path to Jannah.

Yes, i used to hate people too, but God has changed my life. I no longer do that. I am a new creation in Christ. He as given me a clean heart and a right spirit. As far as your comment on the security issue, can you show my chapter and verse in the Qur'an that you base that on? Cause, I don't see what you found that confidence on. My understanding is Allah can send you to hell just cause He feels like it regardless of how many good things you do with the exception maybe of dying in a jhad.

 

[vpb]

bro , u forgot to mention '' mother of God .''

I did it on purpose, bc sometimes you don't know wether Son of God, or One of the substances of the whole God. I think it's simultaniosly son of God, and God .

 

[vpb]

Surah Al-Baqara (The Cow) 2:120:

And the Jews will not be pleased with you, nor the Christians until you follow their religion. Say: Surely Allah's guidance, that is the (true) guidance. And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, you shall have no guardian from Allah, nor any helper.

 

[Woodrow]

Yes, i used to hate people too, but God has changed my life. I no longer do that. I am a new creation in Christ. He as given me a clean heart and a right spirit. As far as your comment on the security issue, can you show my chapter and verse in the Qur'an that you base that on? Cause, I don't see what you found that confidence on. My understanding is Allah can send you to hell just cause He feels like it regardless of how many good things you do with the exception maybe of dying in a jhad.

Oddly I can say very much the same. It is after accepting Islam I learned to be more peaceful and forgiving of others. Islam has changed my life and I am no longer that which I was before I was born into Islam.

What you see in us as insecurity we see as acknowledgement of the power of Allah(swt) We accept the fact that Allah(swt) is greater than us and it is only his will that is of importance. we have no control over what Allah(swt) will do, it is His will and it is for us to accept it and be forever grateful for what ever He chooses to bestow upon us. We also have faith that He will be fair and mercifull in his choices.

In contrast we see what you call security as being arrogance and an insult to the Power of Allah(swt). Do you not know that if for any reason He chooses he has the power to cast you and who ever he desires into the hellfire and he owes us humans no explanation as to why? Do you deny the absolute authority of Allah(swt) and feel that he does not have the right or ability to do as he wishes? Is not everything ultimatly up to the will of Allah(swt) and He will do as He wills, Inshallah?

I also believe Allah(swt) keeps his word and that in the Qur'an He has said:

98: 7. (And) lo! those who believe and do good works are the best of created beings.
98: 8. Their reward is with their Lord: Gardens of Eden underneath which rivers flow, wherein they dwell for ever. Allah hath pleasure in them and they have pleasure in Him. This is (in store) for him who feareth his Lord.

There are other passages with more description as to what is promised to those who believe. I strive to do what I can to know that when I die it will be as a believer. But, I have full faith in knowing Allah(swt) is the most fair and the most merciful. I have no further need in knowing more than that.

 

[vpb]

Surah Al Maeda (The Table, The Table Spread) 5:17:

In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things."

 

[Grace Seeker]

which came first after Paul and sun-god constantine; Catholicism or your particular version?

how do you trace your creed back to Paul if not thru Rome?

First, if I was a Roman Catholic, I would argue that Catholicism was the faith of all of the first Christians. It was the only faith. There was only one church and it was the Catholic Church. The Catholic church was in existence before either Paul or Constantine.


Second, I don't personally buy that particular argument. I think that the Catholic Church as I know think of it is one of many denominations within Christendom. Some of those denominations have split off from the Catholic Church. Some, such as the Coptics or the Orthodox churches, are just as original as the Catholic church.

Third, then there are groups such as that which I am a part of that did break away from the Catholic Church. We did so because we thought that errors had developed within the teaching of the Catholic Church. We noticed these errors by comparing the scriptures with the then current teachings of the church and found that there was a difference between them. At which time we decided to go with what we understood the scriptures to be teachings versus with what we understood the Catholic Church to have been teaching. In my mind, that means we were clinging to that which was most surely original Christianity vs. that which had evolved as the Catholic Church's expression of Christianity. So, though the Catholic Church might have come before my version of Christianity, my version has its own access to original Christianity without needing the input of the Catholic Church. We do not trace ourselves through Rome, but through the scriptures.



Oh, and btw, we don't trace ourselves back to either Constantine or Paul, we go back farther to Jesus. While Paul and Constantine may have had significant impact on the development of the Christian faith. Its origins lay in the experience not of these Johnny-come-latelys, but in those who were the companions of Jesus proclaiming the good news of the work of God that Jesus had accomplished in his death and resurrection.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Surah Al Maeda (The Table, The Table Spread) 5:17:

In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things."

I'll take that as a speech against the Christian understanding of the Trinity.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I submit to you that Peter was a Trinitarian, now please name a Unitarian before Peter.

Jesus. :thumbs_up

Very good.

Now if Jesus was a unitarian, please explain to me why he told Philip that seeing him was the equivalence of seeing the Father?

John 14

8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

And, if Jesus was a unitarian, please explain to me why he allowed Thomas to address him as God?

John 20

19On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

24Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!"
But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."

28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."