How much Christians know about Bible? What about Muslims?

how can a son and father be one? I can't percept how can God pray? humans pray to God but God praying?? God having a son?? Hellooooooooooo :p
For one, they could be one in purpose couldn't they? In this case they are (the FATHER and the Son) one not only in purpose but in essence. You find it impossible. Why?:? It is also impossible that God had no begining, end or creator. I don't find it anymore difficult to believe that than they are one in substance! I understand why you oppose this so strongly. It is bcause if God is one as we say, it threatens the foundations of what you believe even though you too believe God is one.:)
 


Salaam/peace;

I heard Dr. Zakir Naik's lecture that Christians are not supposed to drink alcohol. He gave 2 references :



Prohibition of alcohol in the Bible

The Bible prohibits the consumption of alcohol in the following verses:

a. Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging; and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise. [Proverbs, 20:1]

b. And be not drunk with wine. [Ephesians 5 :18]

what do u think of it ?

http://www.islamicvoice.com/march.99/zakir.htm
 
I understand why you oppose this so strongly. It is bcause if God is one as we say, it threatens the foundations of what you believe even though you too believe God is one.:)
No, we oppose you so strongly because you are twisting words around to say that God (Father to you), Jesus (Son of God to you) and the Angel Gabriel (Holy Spirit to you my interpretation) are three "persons" or "manifestations" of the One God. Just say God and lay all the other stuff aside and we would see eye-to-eye.
 
That is not true. You have not been born again to know that the Spirit of God bears witness with our spirit that we are His and no one can snatch us away from Him. There is a spiritual strength in Christianity that is not match in other faiths in the world. I can see this clearly. There is no question to us that the Christian doctrine is true. I only wish and pray that you could see it the way I do for one minute.

Have you noticed is that both of us feel virtually the very same way about our beliefs? Your statement is equally valid for a Muslim if writen as such:

"You have not been born again to know that the Spirit of God bears witness with our spirit that we are His and no one can snatch us away from Him. There is a spiritual strength in Islam that is no match in other faiths in the world. I can see this clearly. There is no question to us that the Muslim doctrine is true. I only wish and pray that you could see it the way I do for one minute."

We do feel that We can depend on the "Rope of Allah(swt)" (Faith) to be strong enough to keep us from being snatched away from Allah(swt). We do know that Allah(swt) guides us in all things.
 

and my hot seat no : is ......???
Sorry, can't answer that. I don't know that you even have a reservation, let alone a ticket.



But if there is a clear verse that says anybody takes Jesus (p) as Saviour will surely go to heaven , then why the question arised about Mother Teresa ?
I've told you. There are some Christians that are stupid idiotic prejudicial bigots. There are some that don't bother to ever even read the Bible, so they don't know what it teaches. They only know what the other stupid idiotic prejudicial bigots they hang around with say. And according to them you have to be just like them to get into heaven. So, based on that view only stupid idiotic prejudicial bigots will get into heaven. Now, of course the Bible doesn't say that, but if you're just listening to whoever you want to listen to, and believing whatever you want to believe, you can arrive at pretty much any belief in the world that you want to. Some people have done just that. And because they only talk to people they already know are going to agree with them, they never hear anything different. But they will get on the internet or answer an opinion poll to tell everyone else what they think. Probably less than 1 in 100,000 Christians really think this way (at least I hope it is less than that), but there are a few out there and they have big mouths. It's your choice whether you listen to them or not, but I can't really explain why they think the way they do to you, as I don't happen to think that way myself. In their mind, I'm sure that Mother Theresa and I are bound for the same place.



I heard that many debates took place among Church members if women have souls or not , if women will go to heaven or not etc . Why they had such debates ?



I found it quite surprising & also scary that so many Christians believe they don't have to be good / stay away from sins to go heaven.

They think , just because they believe --our Lord is Christ (p) , they won't taste hell fire. From where they got that idea that they will surely go to heaven ?

What role Church is playing to remove this wrong concept ( if it's wrong ) ?

You seem to hear all sorts of crazy things that I don't hear. I wonder if maybe you've got a special line by which you tap into the few crazies that do exist? Seriously, I am 50 years old and was raised in the church. I have been a pastor for 25 years. I attended a Christian university. And I have Christian friends in many different denominations and some scattered around the world. And I listen to some Christian radio. But I have never heard some of the things that you claim to have heard with regard to Christianity.

Now, I don't know it all. But if it is a common belief held by more than an isolated few I am sure I would have heard of it. But the idea that women don't have souls????? That is just ridiculous.

As far as what role the Church is playing to remove wrong concepts.

One such as the one about women having no souls, as far as I am aware the church is doing nothing, because it is not something that the church has ever even heard of. If you have, it must be a very localized idea. It isn't Christian in its origins, even if it is an idea being held by some Christians someplace.

For other wrong concepts. The church generally tries to counter wrong concepts by teaching what are the right concepts. When an issue gets out of hand and becomes a societal problem for many, then the church will also address it as a sin that needs to be dealt with in society by being confessed and repented of. Sometimes, local congregations will mobilize a task force of people to try to address the situation through hands on ministries. Those are the general ways that I am aware of the church trying to counter and remove wrong concepts.
 
The Christian "assurance of salvation" is true ONLY if their doctrine is true. Although they sincerely BELIEVE that the Christian doctrine is true that salvation is assured for those who accept Jesus as their Savior and believe that Jesus was the Son of God and at the same time God, that he died on the cross for their sins, and that he was raised from the dead after 3 days, there is absolutely no way for them to KNOW that it is true on this side of death and Judgment Day. The deception comes in to play when they say they KNOW they are saved.

To be assured of salvation is a great temptation to mislead Muslims from Islam. I hope that all Muslims can see the deception.

But the same thing is also true in reverse. To say that one knows that Muhammad is a prophet of God and that his message is true is a doctrinal statement this is true only if the doctrine is itself true. There is no way for a Muslim to KNOW that it is true on this side of death and Judgment Day any more than (and also no less than) for a Christian to KNOW his beliefs to be true.
 


Salaam/peace;

I heard Dr. Zakir Naik's lecture that Christians are not supposed to drink alcohol. He gave 2 references :



Prohibition of alcohol in the Bible

The Bible prohibits the consumption of alcohol in the following verses:

a. Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging; and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise. [Proverbs, 20:1]

b. And be not drunk with wine. [Ephesians 5 :18]

what do u think of it ?

http://www.islamicvoice.com/march.99/zakir.htm


The Bible does say not to be drunk. It doesn't say not to drink. Proverbs is filled with all sorts of pithy little sayings. I would say that to be deceived by anything is not wise. And certainly, some people when they drink, drink to excess. When they do they make all sorts of silly and unwise decision, because their mental faculties are impaired. In that way alcohol is a deceiver. But taken in moderation it does not have the same effect. Even though I myself do not drink, I cannot say that I am so commanded by the scriptures. The scriptures are against drunkenness, not against drinking. If Dr. Naik was saying more than this, then he was mistaken.
 
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Am I Allow To Write What I Know About The Bible ?

as long as it not for the purpose of insulting or bashing any members or a deliberate blatant attempt to promote a religion other than Islam You may.
 
For one, they could be one in purpose couldn't they? In this case they are (the FATHER and the Son) one not only in purpose but in essence. You find it impossible. Why?:? It is also impossible that God had no begining, end or creator. I don't find it anymore difficult to believe that than they are one in substance! I understand why you oppose this so strongly. It is bcause if God is one as we say, it threatens the foundations of what you believe even though you too believe God is one.:)

I can be 'one in purpose' with my mother, but that doesn't MAKE us 'one in essence'. if that is an attempt to make sense of the trinity it's very poor.

If you truly said 'God is One' there would be no argument from us. It's because you say 'God is One and also Three' that we disagree. but be assured, your muddled theology is no threat at all to us.

God is eternal and had no creator. check.

God divided himself up & came down to earth at the same time as He was in heaven, and His earth-self prayed to Himself in heaven, and His earth-self was ignorant of something that his Heaven-self knew - but this doesn't negate the idea of Him being One - nope it's nonsense.

I would have more respect if you just admitted that 'God is Three' is not the same as 'God is One'.
 
Most christians believe in and have heard the story about how The Angelic Being Gabriel appeared to a virgin name mary 2,000 years ago to bring her news . In the form of The Holy Ghost , Mary would miraculously become Impregnated by God himself , Because she was

'' Full Of Grace '' , They never really explained exactly how this would happen . The just say , By the '' Will Of God '' , It happened . The child she bore was The '' Son Of God '' , Who Later Grew Up To Be God Himself . They Say God The Father , God The Son And God The Holy Ghost , Are One In The Same .


What makes maith so special ?

1 plus - 1 plus - 1 plus =
God the father
God the son
God the holy ghost

3
cannot
go into
One

This is the popular story that christians teach around Christmas and Easter to explain what they understand about the birth of The Messiah Jesus of 2,000 years ago . It sounds nice and its '' Clean '' Enough to tell children
( But It's Just Not True ).

The real truth is , The holy ghost who appeared to Mary is the same Angel named Gabriel of which Jesus was born . Thus making The Angel Gabriel The Father Of The Child Named Jesus . Refer to ; Luke 1 ; 29 ; 35 , Luke 4 ; 18 , And Koran 2 ; 253 , 3 ; 45 , 4 ; 171 and 19 ; 17 - 22 .


How did they get fooled so easy ?
The Christian preachers preach the bible don't teach , know , understand nor can translate the holy scriptures in their languages .


What were the scriptures original languages ?
The old testament called the torah was revealed in Ancient Aramic ( Hebrew )
, The new testament was reavealed in the greek language , And recorded many years after the actual incidents took place .

What does that mean ?
The recorders who recorder it in the greek language were recording incidents that were being spoken in Aramic ( Hebrew ) and Syretic ( Arabic ) .

Am I saying there is no Greek Bible ?
No , That's not what I'm saying . There are many Greek bibles ; Today's New Jehovah's Witnesses are a christian group with their own greek version , None of the christian churches are translating from the original Manuscripts because they don't have access to them

And even if they did have access to these manuscripts , They can't read them because they don't know the language . Ask the head of these churches does He / She read '' Ancient '' Greek or '' Ancient '' Aramic . If they are HONEST they would have to say '' No '' . But it is clear from the Book of Acts , Chapter 2 Verse 1 - 13 that these language were there at the day of Pentecost .

Its important to use that which was translate word for word from the Greek and The Aramic ( Hebrew ) and The Ashuric / Syriac ( Arabic ) so you can check it yourself . Seek Out A Book Entitled '' The Greek Key Study Bible World Bible Publishers Inc . To Check The Translation .
 
:sl:
The Bible does say not to be drunk. It doesn't say not to drink. Proverbs is filled with all sorts of pithy little sayings. I would say that to be deceived by anything is not wise. And certainly, some people when they drink, drink to excess. When they do they make all sorts of silly and unwise decision, because their mental faculties are impaired. In that way alcohol is a deceiver. But taken in moderation it does not have the same effect. Even though I myself do not drink, I cannot say that I am so commanded by the scriptures. The scriptures are against drunkenness, not against drinking. If Dr. Naik was saying more than this, then he was mistaken.
That is correct, however, the Bible also states that we should keep it to ourselves what we believe about this to avoid stumbling people. Most Christians are weak in this area.
 
I can be 'one in purpose' with my mother, but that doesn't MAKE us 'one in essence'. if that is an attempt to make sense of the trinity it's very poor.

If you truly said 'God is One' there would be no argument from us. It's because you say 'God is One and also Three' that we disagree. but be assured, your muddled theology is no threat at all to us.

God is eternal and had no creator. check.

God divided himself up & came down to earth at the same time as He was in heaven, and His earth-self prayed to Himself in heaven, and His earth-self was ignorant of something that his Heaven-self knew - but this doesn't negate the idea of Him being One - nope it's nonsense.

I would have more respect if you just admitted that 'God is Three' is not the same as 'God is One'.


God is One. God is not Three. And I will admit that saying that 'God is Three' is not the same as 'God is One'. No problem with that.

Now to where the problem lays:
If, when we Christians say that God exists in Trinity, what you hear is 'God is Three', then either we are not communicating what we believe very clearly, or you are misunderstanding what we are trying to say. For we are infact trying to say 'God is One' by such a statement.

We are saying that though the Bible describes God as Father, and God as Son, and God as Holy Spirit, that God is nonetheless NOT Three. God is only One. We refuse to ascribe partners to God. Jesus is not the partner of God. Jesus is the ONE God incarnate. Now you can disagree with that too; I understand that. But, please, understand that the doctrine of the Trinity is a way of saying that there really is just One God, no matter what it might look like from the outside looking in.
 
The real truth is , The holy ghost who appeared to Mary is the same Angel named Gabriel of which Jesus was born . Thus making The Angel Gabriel The Father Of The Child Named Jesus . Refer to ; Luke 1 ; 29 ; 35 , Luke 4 ; 18 , And Koran 2 ; 253 , 3 ; 45 , 4 ; 171 and 19 ; 17 - 22 .


How did they get fooled so easy ?
The Christian preachers preach the bible don't teach , know , understand nor can translate the holy scriptures in their languages .


What were the scriptures original languages ?
The old testament called the torah was revealed in Ancient Aramic ( Hebrew )
, The new testament was reavealed in the greek language , And recorded many years after the actual incidents took place .

What does that mean ?
The recorders who recorder it in the greek language were recording incidents that were being spoken in Aramic ( Hebrew ) and Syretic ( Arabic ) .

Am I saying there is no Greek Bible ?
No , That's not what I'm saying . There are many Greek bibles ; Today's New Jehovah's Witnesses are a christian group with their own greek version , None of the christian churches are translating from the original Manuscripts because they don't have access to them

And even if they did have access to these manuscripts , They can't read them because they don't know the language . Ask the head of these churches does He / She read '' Ancient '' Greek or '' Ancient '' Aramic . If they are HONEST they would have to say '' No '' . But it is clear from the Book of Acts , Chapter 2 Verse 1 - 13 that these language were there at the day of Pentecost .

Its important to use that which was translate word for word from the Greek and The Aramic ( Hebrew ) and The Ashuric / Syriac ( Arabic ) so you can check it yourself . Seek Out A Book Entitled '' The Greek Key Study Bible World Bible Publishers Inc . To Check The Translation .


What are you talking about?

Perhaps in the Qur'an one identifies the angel Gabriel with the Holy Spirit. But in the Bible they are NOT one and the same. This can be seen by the very verses from Luke which you cited:
και αποκριθεις ο αγγελος ειπεν αυτη πνευμα αγιον επελευσεται επι σε και δυναμις υψιστου επισκιασει σοι διο και το γεννωμενον αγιον κληθησεται υιος θεου

Who is speaking? Answer: ο αγγελος .
To whom is the angel speaking? Answer: αυτη, the pronoun refering back to its antecedent in verse 30 -- μαριαμ
And what is the subject of the conversation between the angel and Mary? Answer: πνευμα αγιον
So the angel and the Holy Spirit are not one and the same.


Also, take a look at επισκιασει. It carries the sense of the holy, powerful presence of God himself, not just that of a messenger. So when Mary is overshadowed by the power of the Most High it is as in the description of the cloud "covered" (in the Hebrew sakan ) the tabernacle when the tent was filled with the glory of God (cf. Exodus 40:35 -- וּמָשַׁחְתָּ֣ אֹתָ֗ם כַּאֲשֶׁ֤ר מָשַׁ֙חְתָּ֙ אֶת־אֲבִיהֶ֔ם וְכִהֲנ֖וּ לִ֑י וְ֠הָיְתָה לִהְיֹ֨ת לָהֶ֧ם מָשְׁחָתָ֛ם לִכְהֻנַּ֥ת עֹולָ֖ם לְדֹרֹתָֽם ׃ ).

Also compare with

Matthew 17:5 -- ετι αυτου λαλουντος ιδου νεφελη φωτεινη επεσκιασεν αυτους και ιδου φωνη εκ της νεφελης λεγουσα ουτος εστιν ο υιος μου ο αγαπητος εν ω ευδοκησα ακουετε αυτου.

Mark 9:7 -- και εγενετο νεφελη επισκιαζουσα αυτοις και εγενετο φωνη εκ της νεφελης ουτος εστιν ο υιος μου ο αγαπητος ακουετε αυτου.

and
Luke 9:34 -- ταυτα δε αυτου λεγοντος εγενετο νεφελη και επεσκιαζεν αυτους εφοβηθησαν δε εν τω εισελθειν αυτους εις την νεφελην.

Note how we have the same word, that I have highlighted for you, in those texts which recount the Transfiguration of Jesus when they describe the overshadowing cloud. And likewise, in each account the voice comes out of the cloud identifying Jesus as God's son (not Gabriel's son), a striking reminder of Luke 1:35 where the life that results from the enveloping cloud is identified as the Son of God.


Oh, and just as a point of information, the New Testament was written in Koine Greek, not ancient Greek; and while Hebrew and Aramaic are related languages, they are not the same as you seem to have implied above -- "recording incidents that were being spoken in Aramic ( Hebrew )". Indeed, there were people who could read Aramaic who could not read Hebrew.

And lastly you don't translate word-for-word between any two langauges if you want to get an understanding of the message. Again, let's look at one phrase from the verse above: το γεννωμενον αγιον κληθησεται υιος θεου. Literally that translates into English as follows: "the thing being born holy will be called son of God". Of course, Jesus is not a thing, Jesus is a person. Also, is αγιον to be understood as a predicate adjective or a modifer of the subject? Personally, I prefer to render it "the holy one to be born will be called (the) son of God", in which I have added the English article "the" which I believe is also implied by the syntax.
 
God is One. God is not Three. And I will admit that saying that 'God is Three' is not the same as 'God is One'. No problem with that.

Now to where the problem lays:
If, when we Christians say that God exists in Trinity, what you hear is 'God is Three', then either we are not communicating what we believe very clearly, or you are misunderstanding what we are trying to say. For we are infact trying to say 'God is One' by such a statement.

We are saying that though the Bible describes God as Father, and God as Son, and God as Holy Spirit, that God is nonetheless NOT Three. God is only One. We refuse to ascribe partners to God. Jesus is not the partner of God. Jesus is the ONE God incarnate. Now you can disagree with that too; I understand that. But, please, understand that the doctrine of the Trinity is a way of saying that there really is just One God, no matter what it might look like from the outside looking in.
Sounds good to me:thumbs_up
 


Salaam/peace;


... You seem to hear all sorts of crazy things that I don't hear.

:giggling:

hehe i heard of it about 2 / 3 yrs back .

In a Christian -Musim dialogue forum , a Muslim asked about a Christian site where a discussion took place over this issue. Don't remember now what was the ans.


Also 3/4 days back , i was listening to Peace TV channel . A revert bro ( westeren ex-Chrsitian )---forgot his name , [ ok , just remember , Abdur Rahim Green ]

his lecture is available here .


adul_rehman_bg.jpg



http://peacetv.in/sp-abdurraheem_green.php



Insha Allah will try to watch his lecture again if they repeat----mentioned that Church had debate over this issue.


I just got it from another site .....did not read the whole article



fifty years before the birth of the prophet Muhammad (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) who was born around 560 CE
we find that there was a gathering of bishops in France to discuss whether women possessed souls or not, and that, if they do possess souls, what would be their purpose on earth?



Was it to worship God? And if they worshipped God, would they go to paradise?


In the end it was decided that, yes, women do possess souls - which was a break from previous tradition - but that their purpose was not just to worship God, but also to serve men

http://www.islamfortoday.com/womensstatus.htm



The church generally tries to counter wrong concepts by teaching what are the right concepts.


i have an impression that some or many Christians beleive they will surely go to heaven because of faith in Jesus (p) & they don't have to keep away from major sins like adultery , gayism etc . Their concept is correct ? If not , what Church is doing to remove this wrong idea ?

To be a good Muslim , it's a must to keep away & forbid evil things & do & encourage good things.

Do Chrsitians have any such command / criteria in Bible to be a good Christian ?



 
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What are you talking about?

Perhaps in the Qur'an one identifies the angel Gabriel with the Holy Spirit. But in the Bible they are NOT one and the same. This can be seen by the very verses from Luke which you cited:


Who is speaking? Answer: ο αγγελος .
To whom is the angel speaking? Answer: αυτη, the pronoun refering back to its antecedent in verse 30 -- μαριαμ
And what is the subject of the conversation between the angel and Mary? Answer: πνευμα αγιον
So the angel and the Holy Spirit are not one and the same.


Also, take a look at επισκιασει. It carries the sense of the holy, powerful presence of God himself, not just that of a messenger. So when Mary is overshadowed by the power of the Most High it is as in the description of the cloud "covered" (in the Hebrew sakan ) the tabernacle when the tent was filled with the glory of God (cf. Exodus 40:35 -- וּמָשַׁחְתָּ֣ אֹתָ֗ם כַּאֲשֶׁ֤ר מָשַׁ֙חְתָּ֙ אֶת־אֲבִיהֶ֔ם וְכִהֲנ֖וּ לִ֑י וְ֠הָיְתָה לִהְיֹ֨ת לָהֶ֧ם מָשְׁחָתָ֛ם לִכְהֻנַּ֥ת עֹולָ֖ם לְדֹרֹתָֽם ׃ ).

Also compare with

Matthew 17:5 -- ετι αυτου λαλουντος ιδου νεφελη φωτεινη επεσκιασεν αυτους και ιδου φωνη εκ της νεφελης λεγουσα ουτος εστιν ο υιος μου ο αγαπητος εν ω ευδοκησα ακουετε αυτου.

Mark 9:7 -- και εγενετο νεφελη επισκιαζουσα αυτοις και εγενετο φωνη εκ της νεφελης ουτος εστιν ο υιος μου ο αγαπητος ακουετε αυτου.

and
Luke 9:34 -- ταυτα δε αυτου λεγοντος εγενετο νεφελη και επεσκιαζεν αυτους εφοβηθησαν δε εν τω εισελθειν αυτους εις την νεφελην.

Note how we have the same word, that I have highlighted for you, in those texts which recount the Transfiguration of Jesus when they describe the overshadowing cloud. And likewise, in each account the voice comes out of the cloud identifying Jesus as God's son (not Gabriel's son), a striking reminder of Luke 1:35 where the life that results from the enveloping cloud is identified as the Son of God.


Oh, and just as a point of information, the New Testament was written in Koine Greek, not ancient Greek; and while Hebrew and Aramaic are related languages, they are not the same as you seem to have implied above -- "recording incidents that were being spoken in Aramic ( Hebrew )". Indeed, there were people who could read Aramaic who could not read Hebrew.

And lastly you don't translate word-for-word between any two langauges if you want to get an understanding of the message. Again, let's look at one phrase from the verse above: το γεννωμενον αγιον κληθησεται υιος θεου. Literally that translates into English as follows: "the thing being born holy will be called son of God". Of course, Jesus is not a thing, Jesus is a person. Also, is αγιον to be understood as a predicate adjective or a modifer of the subject? Personally, I prefer to render it "the holy one to be born will be called (the) son of God", in which I have added the English article "the" which I believe is also implied by the syntax.




Are you says their TWO DIFFRENT Gabriel YES OR NO LOLOLOLOLOL
 
Are you says their TWO DIFFRENT Gabriel YES OR NO LOLOLOLOLOL


What?

I'm sorry, I thought that English was your first language and that perhaps you also spoke the original languages the scriptures were written in based on your previous post.

What is it that you did not understand in my previous post?
 
Salaam/peace;




i did not read the ans ......to my knowledge , Christians do believe that Angel Gabriel is one.



Christians believe that there are many angels. The name of one of those angels is Gabriel. Christians believe that it was this angel, Gabriel, who made the announcement to Mary that she would conceive Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit. Christians do NOT believe that the Angel Gabriel is himself the Holy Spirit; in fact we would vehemently deny it to be true. Christians do not believe that the Holy Spirit is anyone other than God himself. Like Muslims, Christians believe that angels are messengers of Gods. Jesus was not conceived in Mary by some divine messenger, Jesus was conceived by God's power -- a view considerably different than that held by Muslims.
 

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