"Views on Atonement for Sin."

[Phil12123]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

You know, I don't mean any offence towards any Christians, but I'm still trying to understand the concept of "killing god."

I understand that most(probably all) Christians believe that Jesus (a.s) died on the cross for the sins of Mankind. So what exactly is the purpose of "God" letting his creation kill Him?

You answered your own question. Read your last two sentences.

Q. What is the purpose...?
A. Jesus died on the cross for the sins of Mankind.

Got another question?

 

[Phil12123]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Phil,

One big problem is we do not have any mutual grounds of acceptable proof.

You believe the Bible is true and that all is as it is written and that The words about Isa(as) are the true words. The teachings of the Qur'an you view as being full of errors and not to be trusted,

I believe that the Qur'an is the truth and the words in it about Isa(as) are the truth. I view the teachings of the Bible to be full of errors and are not to be trusted.

Both of us have what we each do believe are valid reasons to believe as we do.

Until we can come to an agreement as to which is truly the word of God(swt) we will have no mutual source to base our debates upon.

all we can do is stand here telling each other of the errors we believe we see.

as long as we can do this without malice, it can be constructive, at least in terms of learning that somewhere within each of us, we are all Human and share the same feelings if not the same beliefs.

I think what you have said is very true. We have concluded that we do share some beliefs in common. Recall the list of 9 things we could agree on; the first four were beliefs we have in common, primarily relating to the existence of sin, which will keep us all out of heaven if not dealt with. That's a good start, but the crucial items that followed were all based on what each of us has accepted or rejected as the source of Truth, that which we see as the word of God. So, you are very right. Until we can come to agreement as to which is truly the word of God, we will have no mutual source to base our debates on, at least not as to that ultimate source, the word of God. We can look as historical sources and probably agree that they may be neutral, simply stating historical facts. But even then one of us might dispute their accurancy if they contradict what we have accepted as the word of God. Historians can be wrong. God is never wrong. The issue then is, Did God really say such and such? Back to square one.

In presenting a case to a jury, each side presents evidence to support what it seeks to prove. In the U.S., if it is a criminal case, the proof of the prosecution must be beyond a reasonable doubt, not every possible doubt, but a reasonable doubt. In a civil case, it is a less stringent standard---proof by a preponderance of the evidence, or by a greater weight of the evidence.

In our discussions, we each present an argument to add to the "proof" of our respective positions, sometimes back and forth. But there really isn't a jury that weighs it all and decides a verdict pro or con either side. So, it might seem pointless to even advance one side or the other. We each will come away from it believing the same thing, though perhaps understanding the other side's "evidence" better than before we ever heard it. And perhaps that's the best we can expect---we each can better understand why each of us believes what we believe. On the issue of the Trinity, though, I think we both understand that, don't we? There may be others, new posters, who come onboard and not understand what we do, that need to hear what we have to say. If they could just go back and read all the posts they might learn all they need to know. But most of them will "come in at the tail end of the conversation," as my dad used to say, and just want a quick answer to the same question we've been discussing and posting about for 40+ pages.

 

[vpb]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

If you want non-Biblical accounts of Christ's crucifiction, I believe Tacitus wrote something about the "Messiah" of the Jews being crucified and causing alot of problems. I will try to find the name of that writing and maybe find an on-line edition of it.

u didn't get my point, as for historical evidences, writings of people, u give me one, I give u hundred, but what I'm asking was scientific evidence for the crucificion of Jesus a.s. We have evidence about Pharaoh which is much older than Jesus a.s. But we don't have any about Jesus crucificion. So what I'm trying to say is that don't go and tell people who have opposite ideas of what u believe that

Nor is it supported by ANY evidence, historical records or proof.

. when you can't bring evidence yourself. it's foolish.
so the only place we base our history is the Qur'an or the Bible.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

cuz you guys not that u don't have the biographies of these disciples, but you even don't have a full biography about Jesus. so I don't want to hear about peters or pauls, cuz they have nothing to do with Jesus a.s . They didn't teach what Jesus taught.
Just bc you tell me that Peter was a fisherman, it doesn't prove to me who he was, or what he did or was he pious or what.
The bible is just one of the layers of the gospel of Q, so there is no point of me beliving on it.

There is no such thing as a complete biography of anyone's life. Always biographers include somethings and leave out others. Even if a biography recorded every minute of activity, the biographer would not have access to all of a person's thoughts and these to are part of giving someone's biography.

But the gospels were never intended as a biography. They were intended as proclamation. And they do that job exceedingly well.

Jesus a.s was not on the cross, so he didn't get killed. so the question of "where is his dead body", falls, bc he was not on the cross, and he was raised up in the heaven.

As you said yourself: "ok, bring on the proof....I dont want historical fact, I want scientific fact !!! So don't give me stories allright? bring me scientifical evidence."

 

[vpb]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

There is no such thing as a complete biography of anyone's life. Always biographers include somethings and leave out others. Even if a biography recorded every minute of activity, the biographer would not have access to all of a person's thoughts and these to are part of giving someone's biography.

what are you talking about? the biography of Jesus is incomplete. totally incomplete. Even the biography of Napoleon Bonaparta is more complete than that of Jesus. and as for the biography of Prophet Muhammed saws, there is no need to discuss on that. We can start his biography even from his grand grandfathers. http://www.islamicbookstore.com/b7111.html you can get one of these, a 800+ pages of biography.

But the gospels were never intended as a biography. They were intended as proclamation. And they do that job exceedingly well.

and I wasn't saying if Gospel should be a history of Jesus a.s. I was talking about history itself.

As you said yourself: "ok, bring on the proof....I dont want historical fact, I want scientific fact !!! So don't give me stories allright? bring me scientifical evidence."

first, I didn't say to anyone

Nor is it supported by ANY evidence, historical records or proof.

which would make someone ask me for scientific evidence.
second,
third, I said that the history is too young to remember about such events,so that's u base them on Bible, we do it on Qur'an.
foruth, I don't have to show you scientific evidence, because once you prove Qur'an is the word of God, and without errors on it, than you can prove the event by just saying "Qur'an says so", it's like people nowdays prove mathematical concepts by using Theorem of Pithagora. Theorem of pithagora has been proved by independent facts. so now no one now asks for independent evidence about particular concept, but they just use the pithagora's theorem, to prove the other theorems. so they use pithagora's theorem as dependent evidence.
fifth, again I don't have to show u scientifical evidence, bc we don't claim that Jesus was crucified, so we find nothing, we say nothing.

 

[vpb]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

We Christians are not your enemies; we are the best of all friends you ever had, but you reject us, and Jesus said, "Those that reject you reject me."

2:120. Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah.

2:135. They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah."

and Jesus said, "Those that reject you reject me."

if those christians at the time of Muhammed a.s would see you know, that you say to you "you have deivated", and would recite the same biblical verse "Those that reject you reject me."

 

[Redeemed]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

2:120. Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah.

2:135. They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah."


if those christians at the time of Muhammed a.s would see you know, that you say to you "you have deivated", and would recite the same biblical verse "Those that reject you reject me."

I guess that would be true under those circumstances.

 

[Phil12123]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

I was a Christian at one point, but my perception of Truth changed over 25 years ago. The focus in my worship is not Jesus, Muhammad, or any other than the One God. I admit that I don't understand Allah's Nature, but it is inconceivable for me to imagine His need to become a human and to die on the cross for my sins. You and other Christians emphasize that there MUST be a blood atonement for sins, yet negate the ability and willingness of Allah to forgive sins of His own accord.

Alapiana1 has answered you well, "It wasn't Allah's need to become human and die on the cross for our sins; it was and is our need. It is written, "Without the shedding of Blood there is no remission for sin." God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to the knoweldge of truth." I would add my "Amen!" to that and also the following elaboration.

I answered a similar thought voiced by Woodrow a while back. Let me copy and paste it here (I don't have the link to that post):

Christians believe God is fully capable of forgiving each of us with just a thought, or of His own accord. But God has revealed, first in the Old Testament, that to be just God must punish every sin. So He instituted the animal sacrifice system and, for example, a lamb without spot or blemish was sacrificed for the sins of the people. There were probably millions of animals sacrificed over the hundreds of years they did that. Why? Because:

Lev. 17:11 "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul."

Now the blood of those animals merely covered sins, as in the Passover, when God saw the blood, He would pass over the sinner and judgment would not fall on him. The sin was paid for by the animal's life, its blood. God's MERCY on the sinner was based on the shedding of blood of the animal in payment for the sinner's sins.

All of that was a type or picture of the Ultimate Sacrifice to come when Jesus, "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29) would lay down His life, shedding the "precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Peter 1:19). But Christ's blood doesn't just cover sins, it washes they away (Rev. 1:5; 1 John 1:7).

That is now the basis of a person's redemption and of God's mercy and grace toward the sinner. That is God's way. For a sinner to say to God, "No, I reject what Christ did for me," is to reject GOD'S way of salvation, which then removes any chance for mercy and forgiveness. God "spared not His own Son but delivered Him up for us all" (Rom. 8:32). In effect, God sent His Son to save the world by His shed blood, showing HIM no mercy as He (Jesus) bore our sins (taking our punishment), so that God could be JUST in terms of punishing all sin, and show US mercy by giving us forgiveness as a free gift. And because it is free to us, we have no excuse. If we reject it, we simply sentence OURSELVES to an eternity paying for our own sins.

 

[Phil12123]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

One other thought. When I said (last paragraph above), "For a sinner to say to God, "No, I reject what Christ did for me," is to reject GOD'S way of salvation, which then removes any chance for mercy and forgiveness," I mean to also say that a sinner can also reject what Christ did for him/her by saying or believing, "No, He never died for my sins, but God took Him to heaven instead."

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

One other thought. When I said (last paragraph above), "For a sinner to say to God, "No, I reject what Christ did for me," is to reject GOD'S way of salvation, which then removes any chance for mercy and forgiveness," I mean to also say that a sinner can also reject what Christ did for him/her by saying or believing, "No, He never died for my sins, but God took Him to heaven instead."

I think more on point would be this verse, that has already been referenced once in this thread:

And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matthew 12:31-32)

While faith in Christ provides assurance of salvation, I think we should leave it to God to say who is excluded.

 

[MustafaMc]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Alapiana1 has answered you well, "It wasn't Allah's need to become human and die on the cross for our sins; it was and is our need. It is written, "Without the shedding of Blood there is no remission for sin." God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to the knoweldge of truth." I would add my "Amen!" to that and also the following elaboration.

I answered a similar thought voiced by Woodrow a while back. Let me copy and paste it here (I don't have the link to that post):

Christians believe God is fully capable of forgiving each of us with just a thought, or of His own accord. But God has revealed, first in the Old Testament, that to be just God must punish every sin. So He instituted the animal sacrifice system and, for example, a lamb without spot or blemish was sacrificed for the sins of the people. There were probably millions of animals sacrificed over the hundreds of years they did that. Why? Because:

Lev. 17:11 "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul."

Now the blood of those animals merely covered sins, as in the Passover, when God saw the blood, He would pass over the sinner and judgment would not fall on him. The sin was paid for by the animal's life, its blood. God's MERCY on the sinner was based on the shedding of blood of the animal in payment for the sinner's sins.

All of that was a type or picture of the Ultimate Sacrifice to come when Jesus, "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29) would lay down His life, shedding the "precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Peter 1:19). But Christ's blood doesn't just cover sins, it washes they away (Rev. 1:5; 1 John 1:7).

That is now the basis of a person's redemption and of God's mercy and grace toward the sinner. That is God's way. For a sinner to say to God, "No, I reject what Christ did for me," is to reject GOD'S way of salvation, which then removes any chance for mercy and forgiveness. God "spared not His own Son but delivered Him up for us all" (Rom. 8:32). In effect, God sent His Son to save the world by His shed blood, showing HIM no mercy as He (Jesus) bore our sins (taking our punishment), so that God could be JUST in terms of punishing all sin, and show US mercy by giving us forgiveness as a free gift. And because it is free to us, we have no excuse. If we reject it, we simply sentence OURSELVES to an eternity paying for our own sins.

You emphasize payment of blood of an innocent (lamb or Jesus) to atone for or expiate for sin rather than that of the actual perpetrator - is this justice?

Please, explain this verse:

Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what [this] meaneth, I desire mercy, and not sacrifice, for I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.

Interesting, how Islam emphasizes the Mercy of Allah and His forgiveness with repentance.

Hadith Qudsi (Holy) #33
A servant [of Allah's] committed a sin and said: O Allah, forgive me my sin. And He (glorified and exalted be He) said: My servant has committed a sin and has known that he has a Lord who forgives sins and punishes for them. Then he sinned again and said: O Lord, forgive me my sin. And He (glorified and exalted be He) said: My servant has committed a sin and has known that he has a Lord who forgives sins and punishes for them. Then he sinned again and said: O Lord, forgive me my sin. And He (glorified and exalted be He) said: My servant has committed a sin and has known that he has a Lord who forgives sins and punishes for sins. Do what you wish, for I have forgiven you.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?






someone wanted to know about fate of Christians mentioned in Quran that he found contradictory . Don't know if anyone answered..... here is a short , quick reply .


The Jews & Christians who came before Prophet Muhammed (p) & worshipped One God only , God Willing they will go to heaven :statisfie


after coming of the last Prophet (p) , those who rejected him , some scholars gave fatwa that they will .....................God knows best .

here is a link.



Name Hossam -

Question



My question is about the People of the Book, like Christian and Jews. if they are committed to their religions and they refrain from most of the things which we see the majority of the non-Muslim do.



I mean if they are truly good people and they did they best as regard their religion but they don't convert to Islam, on the day of judgment, what will be their fate? Will they go to Heaven or Hellfire?


Also if they reached a conclusion according to their way of thinking that Christianity or Judaism is good for them and it is the religion that will satisfy their Lord and they truly believe in that, what will be their fate of the Day of Judgment.


Answer




In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.




We don't judge the people’s fate, but we judge the concept itself. To believe in trinity or divinity of Jesus is, in fact, blasphemy and an act of shirk (associating other partners with Allah).



We know from the Qur’an that Allah does not forgive shirk:



“Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.”


(An-Nisa’: 48)

Therefore, Islam is the only religion accepted by Allah and the only message that was protected from any act of distortion. Though some Christians and Jews might be excused for the lack of knowledge, Allah does not accept any other religion from anyone of them who knows of Islam.



You can also read:

Fate of Non-Muslims

Allah Almighty knows best.



http://www.islamonline.net/livefatwa/english/Browse.asp?hGuestID=3p8wzC

 

[vpb]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

I mean if they are truly good people and they did they best as regard their religion but they don't convert to Islam, on the day of judgment, what will be their fate? Will they go to Heaven or Hellfire?

well, if they recieved the message of Islam, and they had the opportunity to know about it, and didn't accept it, and continued joining partnership to Allah swt, then there is no doubt that they will go to Hell. But as for those who didn't get the message or those before Muhammed saws came, then I dont know about that.

Book 001, Number 0284:

It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) observed: By Him in Whose hand is the life of Muhammad, he who amongst the community of Jews or Christians hears about me, but does not affirm his belief in that with which I have been sent and dies in this state (of disbelief), he shall be but one of the denizens of Hell-Fire.




​

Volume 4, Book 55, Number 657: Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, surely (Jesus,) the son of Mary will soon descend amongst you and will judge mankind justly (as a Just Ruler); he will break the Cross and kill the pigs and there will be no Jizya (i.e. taxation taken from non Muslims). Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it, and a single prostration to Allah (in prayer) will be better than the whole world and whatever is in it." Abu Huraira added "If you wish, you can recite (this verse of the Holy Book): -- 'And there is none Of the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (i.e Jesus as an Apostle of Allah and a human being) Before his death. And on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness Against them." (4.159) (See Fateh Al Bari, Page 302 Vol 7)

 

[Phil12123]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

You emphasize payment of blood of an innocent (lamb or Jesus) to atone for or expiate for sin rather than that of the actual perpetrator - is this justice?

Obviously not for the innocent victim, but the sin did not go unpunished, and as long as God accepted payment for the sin by punishing the lamb or His Son, justice was done and mercy to the repentant sinner is justified. And who are WE to question God's arrangement whereby He extends His mercy to the sinner upon such payment for the sin? Apart from that arrangement the sinner has to pay for his own sins. That's not the kind of justice that any sinner wants.

Please, explain this verse:

Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what [this] meaneth, I desire mercy, and not sacrifice, for I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.

Let's look at its context:

Matthew 9:
9. Then as Jesus passed on from there, He saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax office. And He said to him, "Follow Me.'' And he arose and followed Him.
10. And so it was, as Jesus sat at the table in the house, that behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and sat down with Him and His disciples.
11. And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to His disciples, "Why does your Teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?''
12. But when Jesus heard that, He said to them, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.
13. "But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice.' For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.''

This feast or meal at Matthew's house included "tax collectors and sinners" whom Matthew may have invited so Jesus might win them to Himself. To the Pharisees, who drew the most rigid distinctions and regarded themselves as righteous, Jesus responded that His ministry was needed by sinners, just as a physician's services are needed by the sick. Jesus used the Pharisee's estimate of themselves to answer their objection. Jesus then tells them to go and learn what is meant by the quoted verse from Hosea 6:6, "I desire mercy and not sacrifice." In that context the verse means that a merciful attitude toward the spiritually needy is far better than the mere formality of religious duties (sacrifice) without concern for others. The Pharisees may have kept those formalities with a strictly proper observance but showed little or no mercy toward the spiritually needy, such as tax collectors and sinners. Jesus really takes them to task in Matthew 23, closer to the end of His public ministry. He calls them hypocrites and compares them to white-washed sepulchres or tombs (nice and clean on the outside but full of dead men's bones, full of corruption and evil, on the inside).

What can we conclude from that quoted verse? God looks on the heart. If, for example, you observe all your religious duties like pray five times a day, give to the poor, fast when required, etc., etc., but your heart is not right with God, God looks at you and would tell you, you might as well stop all that ritual and religiosity and repent---get right with Him before you do another thing that is only outward observance. What you and I have a difference about is HOW a person gets right with God. I would say he needs to repent and believe the Gospel that Jesus died for his sins and rose again. To do so would wash all his sins away and make him a brand new person. Then his worship of God would be truly acceptable to Him. You would say, just repent.

By the way, there are other verses that are similar to the one quoted in Matt. 9:13, where God says, for example, obedience is better than sacrifice:

1 Sam. 15:22 Then Samuel said: "Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed than the fat of rams.
23. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, He also has rejected you [Saul] from being king.''

Does this mean God was cancelling the animal sacrifices or saying they were no longer to be performed for the sins of the people? No, because think about it: If they would obey God, they wouldn't have a sin that would NEED a sacrifice to pay for it. But if they do the sacrifices and then just keep on sinning, continue disobeying, they are missing the whole point.

 

[BanGuLLy]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

so wats goin on in this thread

 

[vpb]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

so wats goin on in this thread

Chocolate cake. what else?

 

[Redeemed]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

alpiana1, hey any recent problem?? it has been a long time since u haven't brough us some problem to discuss about

If you are so established in your faith, I wouldn't be causing you problems. I seems like Christianity is the big problem for Muslims. No other religion appears to be a threat. When I read the Qur'an I see Muhammad blasting away, mostly if not all, the concepts of Christianity. Why didn’t he attack the concepts behind Buddhism, Hinduism and all the other different eastern religions or other religions of the world? That is because the devil fights Christianity, because that is the strongest force against the kingdom of darkness. The devil is the enemy of our souls. When we purpose in our hearts to follow the narrow road, which there are few that find, as Jesus mentions, then, we pose a threat to Satan's realm. In fact, Jesus warns us to beware of false prophets who come to you dressed in sheep’s clothing. That means appear to you to be from God. Satan is a master at it. He knows Christianity and Islam better than us all. I know I am a sinner. I look in the mirror and see the truth about myself. The heart of man is desperately wicked who can know it? I thank God very time I write you that I won’t be judged based on my works whether I have tipped the scale to go to paradise. All those depending on that system will be in outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. :raging: hew

 

[NoName55]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

why didn’t he attack the concepts behind Buddhism, Hinduism and all the other different eastern religions or other religions of the world?

are you really that dim? Learn the difference between concepts of Tawheed and idolatery and that might stop you from posting stupid questions and statements

 

[Redeemed]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Actually, Allah has no son see Surah Ikhlas. By definition of Muslim and Christian we will never agree on this issue - at least this side of Judgement Day.

I was a Christian at one point, but my perception of Truth changed over 25 years ago. The focus in my worship is not Jesus, Muhammad, or any other than the One God. I admit that I don't understand Allah's Nature, but it is inconceivable for me to imagine His need to become a human and to die on the cross for my sins. You and other Christians emphasize that there MUST be a blood atonement for sins, yet negate the ability and willingness of Allah to forgive sins of His own accord.

Moreover, it wasn't our idea for the blood atonement. God had prepared that from before the foundations of the world. Of course, I can conceive of God's mercy and forgiveness but not outside of His terms. You remind me of the man who was stranded in the ocean. Someone came by in a boat, and said, “I’ll save you”, but your response is, “That’s OK, but Allah can do it. Then a helicopter comes by as someone shouts, “We can save you if you grasp this rope.” You would respond. “No thanks, I am trusting in Allah’s rescue.” You finally die and stand before Allah only to ask “What happened why you didn’t rescue me?” And Allah will say, I sent you a boat and a plane, but you refused my salvation. hew

 

[MustafaMc]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

What can we conclude from that quoted verse? God looks on the heart. If, for example, you observe all your religious duties like pray five times a day, give to the poor, fast when required, etc., etc., but your heart is not right with God, God looks at you and would tell you, you might as well stop all that ritual and religiosity and repent---get right with Him before you do another thing that is only outward observance.

I would agree with you that acts of worship with the wrong intention or attitude or from someone that sins and has no regret for his sins most likely will not be accepted. One should worship in truth (proper manner) and in spirit (proper intentions, etc).

What you and I have a difference about is HOW a person gets right with God. I would say he needs to repent and believe the Gospel that Jesus died for his sins and rose again. To do so would wash all his sins away and make him a brand new person. Then his worship of God would be truly acceptable to Him. You would say, just repent.

Yes, one should repent, ask for forgiveness from Allah, continually strive to avoid that sin in the future and also continue to strive to follow the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the worship of the One God.

By the way, there are other verses that are similar to the one quoted in Matt. 9:13, where God says, for example, obedience is better than sacrifice:

1 Sam. 15:22 Then Samuel said: "Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed than the fat of rams.
23. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, He also has rejected you [Saul] from being king.''

Does this mean God was cancelling the animal sacrifices or saying they were no longer to be performed for the sins of the people? No, because think about it: If they would obey God, they wouldn't have a sin that would NEED a sacrifice to pay for it. But if they do the sacrifices and then just keep on sinning, continue disobeying, they are missing the whole point.

Yes, I agree that obedience to Allah in submission (Islam) is better than any sacrifice and it is our intention to submit our wills to that of the One God.