Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

[al-muslimah]

Jesus The Son Of Mary Is A Muslim Not A Jew,christian, Or Any Other Follower Of Other Religions So Deal With It!

 

[Pynthanomai]

I was following you pretty well until the "quasi-solipsistic" and I don't read what I suppose is Latin.

solipsism: a theory holding that the self can know nothing but its own modifications and that the self is the only existent thing; also : extreme egocentrism solipsistic adjective

...but anyway I could substitute Allah where you put Trinity and agree all the way up to, but excluding quasi-solipsistic. You are right that it is all a matter of faith and I contend that it boils down to whether one believes that the Quran or the Bible is the inerrant Word of God and whether Muhammad or the various Biblical authors received their revelations from God or not.

If a Muslims accepts the Quran as the Word of Allah, then there is absolutely no way that he will accept the Trinity concept with Jesus being the Son of God. If a Christian accepts the Bible as the Word of God, then there is no way that he can accept that saying Jesus is the Son of God is a polytheistic belief and actually ascribing a partner to the One God. So it seems that we are at an impasse.

impasse 1 a: a predicament affording no obvious escape b: deadlock2: an impassable road or way

Hi MustafaMc,

I did complete and send a reply to your post, and saw it on this thread, but it's disappeared. I haven't received any PMs from any of the moderators to say that they deleted it (or a couple of other postings I made) because it was off-topic (I didn't think it really was, since I was replying to the points you'd made), so I can only suppose it must have died a natural death in the transition to the new server.

I'll try and be briefer in this reply: (1) Yes, I agree that a better term than "quasi-solipsistic" could be employed. (2) The Latin phrases (which I apologise for not providing in translation - I think I assumed that since many in the forum appeared bilingual, based on the prevalence of Arabic words and expressions, a little Latin would be easily understood) may be translated as "I believe because it's absurd" and "I believe in order to understand". (3) I agree that we're at an impasse - though at least we understand why.

P.S. alapiana1, I posted a reply to your comment on one of my earlier postings, where I talked about people who adopted a belligerent approach to sharing their faith. I think you might have thought I was referring to you. Please be assured that I was only talking about myself; I have the highest respect for you and all the other members of this forum. I apologise that my post was probably not as clear as it could have been.

 

[Pynthanomai]

Hello all (but especially the moderators),

Just as an addendum to my last posting - and I realise that this particular posting I'm typing now probably fits the criteria for deletion - I would like to note that some of my previous postings that have been deleted, either by the transition to a new server, or because they were deemed off-topic or irrelevant by a moderator, would of course have been better sent via PM. However, the critical point is that I can't PM because my status is that of a "Limited Member"! Therefore I am obliged to make sometimes less-than-entirely-relevant posts in the thread to ensure that I'm not seen to be ignoring others who post in relation to things I've said.

I hope this explains my actions and the dilemma with which I'm faced. I appreciate that the moderators have the prerogative to make their own decisions about what postings can be deleted, and I understand that time restraints probably preclude the possibility of a PM being sent to the pertinent member in the case of every single post that might happen to be deleted, so as to inform them of the rationale behind act, or at least of the fact itself. But it's just a wee bit difficult for me at present, since I obviously don't want to appear nonchalant about other people's feelings (viz. referring to a couple of postings I'd previously made that have since been deleted).

Again, my profuse apologies for this long-winded and probably culpably off-topic post. Just as soon as I get to 50 posts I'll be able to PM and stop bothering people quite as much.

 

[MustafaMc]

I can see how you see that I have attacked Islam, but I can't see how you would be offended knowing that I want you to have a relationship with the Jesus of the Bible. Let me clarify. You (when I say "you" I mean all Muslims not just you) do not hate the Jesus in the Qur'an. You hold him in high esteem. I know that, but do you deny that you reject Jesus as God's son? If the answer is yes, then that is what Jesus means by hate; however, don't blame me for it. Your offense should be against Jesus who said, If you do not believe I am he, you will die in your sins, and he also says that if you have not heard and seen the works that Jesus had done which no other man has done, you would be without fault not believing that He is the son of God. But you have heard of the works and word of Jesus and reject the Jesus of the Bible. That is why Jesus said, “you hate both me and my father” But you respect and honor the Jesus in the Koran. These words are not mine; they are the words of Christ Jesus. I am tempted to be offended that you would take an offense at me for speaking the truth in love, but I refuse to, because I choose not to be. But, I would like to know what false statement have I made that you should be offended. I did not say anything false, but even if I did and if you are offended, that is because you choose to be.
I wish you peace, love and happiness!:happy:

BTW, I believe that most of the Christians if not all see things this way. They just have a different presentation then me. One that is is less confrontational, but their spirit of thinking is along these lines. They may not agree with my style, but they can't easily deny I speak the truth.

Alapiana, I realize that you have the best of intentions in "snatching us Muslims from the Hellfire" because of your love for humanity. I want you to realize, if you don't already, that guidance comes only from God. You can share what you believe is the Truth, but if it is contrary what I hold as the Truth, then it is certain that I will reject your contradictory words until my beliefs are shown to be false. But, yes, I can not hold what the Quran teaches about Jesus and what Christians claim about him to both be true at the same time. That does not mean that I hate the Jesus presented in the Bible -the one who said in Matthew 22:36-38:

Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.This is the great and first commandment.


The larger passage that you sub-quoted:


John 15:18-25 If the world hateth you, ye know that it hath hated me before [it hated] you.If ye were of the world, the world would love its own: but because ye are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.Remember the word that I said unto you, A servant is not greater than his lord. If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they kept my word, they will keep yours also.But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no excuse for their sin.He that hateth me hateth my Father also. If I had not done among them the works which none other did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.But [this cometh to pass], that the word may be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.


I understand the passage that you applied to me and Muslims applies to the Jewish leadership during Jesus' life on earth that rejected his teachings and who clearly hated and tried to kill Jesus. I do not accept that it applies to me and to Muslims for rejecting the divinity of Jesus.

 

[MustafaMc]

Yes, I suppose a better term could be found. As for "choosing to impart of himself to others", I was making a general allusion (not very clearly expressed, I can see now) that God, who is self-sufficient, nevertheless chose to create a world and its inhabitants, in order that they might enjoy his goodness and greatness. He had no obligation to do so (sc. because he's self-sufficient); but that he chose to do so demonstrates that his goodness is extremely abundant. I hope that makes more sense. Of course it's only my perspective, so I'm not expecting you to agree that it's correct or even that it's a particularly good description.

I agree with this explanation. I had understood that you were implying that God exists within His creation, which I now don't think you were.

I certainly hope that I don't fall into any group that makes a habit of ridiculing or attacking Muslims or Islam. Quite apart from such an approach being at odds with the stated intentions of this forum (as stipulated in the FAQ), my experience has been that even if discussing religious topics doesn't always result in the agreement of the parties involved, at the very least I usually end up improving my own knowledge of others' beliefs and practises. But attacking another person's beliefs directly, or loudly proclaiming, with little ingenuousness, that one's own beliefs are superior, has never much worked for me. (From which you can correctly infer that I have been bigoted in my opinions in the past. I like to think I'm not as bad as I used to be, but I guess that's for others to decide.)

Sometimes we get carried away with our zeal for what we hold as the Truth and sometimes unintentionally offend others. I, personally, would rather offend than to hold back on what I hold as the Truth and I am sure this POV is shared by some Christians. BTW if I do offend a PM would be much appreciated.

I enthusiastically welcome Christians and others who genuinely want to learn about Islam to increase their knowledge and understanding. I also welcome discussion with a Christian who wants to share his beliefs with me in order to clarify any misconceptions that I may have about Christianity. However, it upsets me when some Christians relentlessly post that I am doomed for Hell because I reject Jesus as the Son of God, when they dig up inflamatory rhetoric from anti-Islamic websites, and when they belittle my experiences as a Christian before becoming a Muslim. I look forward to discussing religious beliefs with you.

 

[MustafaMc]

Hi MustafaMc,

I did complete and send a reply to your post, and saw it on this thread, but it's disappeared. I haven't received any PMs from any of the moderators to say that they deleted it (or a couple of other postings I made) because it was off-topic (I didn't think it really was, since I was replying to the points you'd made), so I can only suppose it must have died a natural death in the transition to the new server.

I'll try and be briefer in this reply: (1) Yes, I agree that a better term than "quasi-solipsistic" could be employed. (2) The Latin phrases (which I apologise for not providing in translation - I think I assumed that since many in the forum appeared bilingual, based on the prevalence of Arabic words and expressions, a little Latin would be easily understood) may be translated as "I believe because it's absurd" and "I believe in order to understand". (3) I agree that we're at an impasse - though at least we understand why.

I really think posts were deleted by accident in the migration to a new server. You have posted nothing worthy of deletion. I try to explain Arabic words when they show up in posts without a translation. Please, let me know if there are any Arabic pharses and words you don't know the meaning for.

I think if we realize our impasse (road block) and the foundation for it, we can still discuss religion, but with the realization that we are not likely to convince the other of "the error of his ways".

 

[Pynthanomai]

I really think posts were deleted by accident in the migration to a new server. You have posted nothing worthy of deletion. I try to explain Arabic words when they show up in posts without a translation. Please, let me know if there are any Arabic pharses and words you don't know the meaning for.

I think if we realize our impasse (road block) and the foundation for it, we can still discuss religion, but with the realization that we are not likely to convince the other of "the error of his ways".

Thanks for your comments. If I get stuck with my Arabic (probability: 100.00%), I'll let you know!

I agree that discussion is still possible. For example, it's still possible for us to discuss the nature of the Trinity, or how Christians agree (or disagree) to explain it to each other and to non-Christians. As long as we don't confuse an inability to provide an acceptable logical explanation for an inherently and confessedly mysterious theological concept with the belief that its truth or falsehood is thereupon dependant (as we have just recently discussed and agreed), we should be fine.

May I offer my humble and modest (but sincere) services in explaining any particular aspect of the Trinity? Or have the other, more knowledgeable Christians around here already covered everything?

 

[Pynthanomai]

I agree with this explanation. I had understood that you were implying that God exists within His creation, which I now don't think you were.
Sometimes we get carried away with our zeal for what we hold as the Truth and sometimes unintentionally offend others. I, personally, would rather offend than to hold back on what I hold as the Truth and I am sure this POV is shared by some Christians. BTW if I do offend a PM would be much appreciated.

I enthusiastically welcome Christians and others who genuinely want to learn about Islam to increase their knowledge and understanding. I also welcome discussion with a Christian who wants to share his beliefs with me in order to clarify any misconceptions that I may have about Christianity. However, it upsets me when some Christians relentlessly post that I am doomed for Hell because I reject Jesus as the Son of God, when they dig up inflamatory rhetoric from anti-Islamic websites, and when they belittle my experiences as a Christian before becoming a Muslim. I look forward to discussing religious beliefs with you.

Sharing one's beliefs effectively and respectfully isn't easy. I think you're right in focussing on telling others what you know to be the truth - some things are too important to remain untold simply out of fear of possibly offending someone's sensibilities. That said, people can sure get offended easily enough! So it's a very delicate balancing act. I suppose so long as you're consistent in your approach, you're at least presenting an honest picture of who you are to others. I probably take a more reserved approach myself (having learnt from earlier encounters in my life), but it's now less to do with me wanting to avoid antagonising others and more to do with my realisation that I don't really know as much as I probably think I do. :hmm:

I appreciate your comments and look forward to some good discussions in the future!

 

[Grace Seeker]

I don't know how else to respond to someone who says that I hate Jesus and the one Jesus referred to as Father just because I don't adhere to the same beliefs that he has about them. I still take offense at this charge!

I assume that you are referring to the last sentence in a post that I made. Do you deny that you have explicitly attacked Islam?

MustafaMc,

Maybe I can word it differently and then tell me what you think???

Islam considers belief in the idea that any man could be held to be equal with God shirk. Muslims think that when we Christians say that Jesus is God that we are committing this sin of making a man equal with God -- though of course we see it differently. And shirk is considered by Islam to be the most grevious of sins, something to be hated. Therefore, although Muslims claim to respect Jesus the human being, Muslims actually hate the idea of Jesus that Christians have. For us Christians this is who Jesus is.

MustafaMc, if I may make a parrallel with regard to you personally... Imagine someone who says that they love Muslims but hate Americans. Where would that leave you? Would you feel loved or hated by such a person.

I have no doubt that Muslims do indeed love and have great respect for the Jesus that they know. I also know that Muslims hate even the idea of the Jesus that I know and have a personal relationship with. It is hard to reconcile those two views of claiming to love Jesus on one hand, and at the same time calling belief in the Jesus that I have come to have a personal relationship with shirk and the most grevious of all sins, so bad that it is hated.


One of the songs I love to sing is called: "Oh, How I Love Jesus"

Chorus:
Oh, how I love Jesus.
Oh, how I love Jesus.
Oh, how I love Jesus.
Because he first loved me.

1) There is a name I love to hear,
I love to sing its worth;
It sounds like music in my ear,
The sweetest name on earth.

Chorus:

2) It tells me of a Savior's love
Who died to set me free;
It tells me of His precious blood,
The sinner's perfect plea.

Chorus:
​

Well, at first, as long as one doesn't use instrumentation -- and I happen to have learned this acapella -- the chorus is one that a Muslim could sing just as much as a Christian. But as you can see from the verse, this song is filled with shirk. From a Christian point of view, to say that you love Jesus, but call the belief in who he is shirk is a complete and utter oxymoron. It is as if you love this idealized psuedo-Jesus that has been created in Islam theology, but fail to love the real Jesus who was born, lived, died, and raised again from the dead for us.

Of course, that gets us back to the heart of this thread's unending discussions, the impasse Muslim Woman spoke of -- Who is the real Jesus? I think what is loved is the Jesus we are each (be one Christian or Muslim) familiar with, and what is really hated is the Jesus that we don't know and don't believe ever existed.

I can see how you see that I have attacked Islam, but I can't see how you would be offended knowing that I want you to have a relationship with the Jesus of the Bible.

Alaphiana,

Now let me try to help us learn to walk in another's shoes. What I hear MustafaMc and the other Muslims on this board saying is not that they are offended by our relationship with Jesus, they have many times said things equivalent to: "to each person his/her own faith". What they are offended by is that another would try to tell them who Jesus is, when they think they have a better knowledge of him than anyone else could. They are offended that someone would try to lead them away from what they understand the truth to be. For some of them they were once Christians and believe they have examined both Islam and Christianity sufficiently well enough to make up their own minds, and now, when we tell them that they worship a false Jesus, we are not only attacking their faith, but actually challenging whether we preceive them as smart enough to make what they considered to have been an intelligent and rational decision based on the facts. If someone was to say to me, Grace Seeker, you do seem to understand what Islam' claims are, and yet your refused to accept its truth as truth, that is total shirk. I would feel that they were doing more than challenging my faith, I would feel that they had attacked me and my ability to reason. So, it does not surprise me that there are some here who might feel that we have done the same in saying that Islam doesn't tell the truth about Christ and they have therefore chosen unwisely. We may not wish to offend in saying that, we may even say it out of genuine love for a person, and wishing for them to avoid some terrible clamity we see at the end of the path they are on, but as long as we have two different vision of the truth and each others path, our challenges to the other's faith are going to also be challenges to the others ability to perceive and comprehend truth. I don't think there is any getting around this. And when one challenges what I call truth, that is like calling me either a liar or stupid. One doesn't have to use those words, one doesn't even have to think those thoughts, I am smart enough to understand, that this is the only ultimate conclusion available for those who see the same things that I do, yet call it by another name.

 

[Keltoi]

On Grace Seekers's line of thought, I think another way to think about it goes back to God Himself. When Christians speak and pray to Jesus Christ, they are speaking and praying to God. Yes, Christians believe that Christ existed in the flesh, but that He was not simply a "man." Muslims believe that Jesus was a messenger of God, but not God Himself. To a Christian, the Muslim belief is a direct denial of God Himself, even more than a misunderstanding of what Christ's mission and message was. On the other hand, Muslims believe Christians are committing shirk in assigning "partners" to God, where Christians believe Christ was and is God.

Just thought it might be beneficial to think about this issue from the aspect of God Himself.

 

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


I think these verses sum up alot of stuff well;

“And they worship besides Allaah things that harm them not, nor profit them, and they say: ‘These are our intercessors with Allaah’”

[Yoonus 10:18]

​

This is exactly what the polytheists of old would do, they would pray to the pious people who had died 'in order for them to intercede for them to God' - yet God has said (interpretation of the meaning: )

And your Lord said: "Call upon Me, I will answer you. Verily, those who scorn My worship they will surely enter Hell in humiliation!''. [Qur'an Ghaafir 40:60]


​

The polytheists would say;

“And those who take Awliyaa’ (protectors, helpers, lords, gods) besides Him (say): ‘We worship them only that they may bring us near to Allaah’”

[al-Zumar 39:3]


​

And if you asked them, "Who created the heavens and the earth?" they would surely say, " Allah [God]." Say, "Then have you considered what you invoke besides Allah ? If Allah intended me harm, are they removers of His harm; or if He intended me mercy, are they withholders of His mercy?" Say, "Sufficient for me is Allah ; upon Him [alone] rely the [wise] reliers." [Qur'an Zumar 39:38]


​

When they were asked to worship Him Alone;

When it is said to them: "Follow what Allah hath revealed:" They say: "Nay! we shall follow the ways of our fathers." What! even though their fathers Were void of wisdom and guidance?

[Qur'an 2: 170]


​

Then when those who associated partners with their Cherisher and Creator, the Compassionate are placed in the hellfire;

They will say, "Our Lord, You made us lifeless twice and gave us life twice, and we have confessed our sins. So is there to an exit any way [from the fire]?"

(It will be said): "This is because, when Allah Alone was invoked (in worship, etc.) you disbelieved, but when partners were joined to Him, you believed! So the judgement is only with Allah, the Most High, the Most Great!"

It is He who shows you His signs and sends down to you from the sky, provision. But none will remember except he who turns back [in repentance].

So invoke Allah , [being] sincere to Him in religion, although the disbelievers dislike it.


[Qur'an 40: 11-14]



And Allaah says:
“O My slaves, all of you are astray except those whom I guide, so ask Me for guidance, and I will guide you. O My slaves, all of you are hungry except those whom I feed, so ask me for food and I will feed you. O My slaves, all of you are naked except those whom I clothe, so ask Me for clothing and I will clothe you. … O My slaves, if the first of you and the last of you, your humans and your jinn, were to stand on a single plain and ask of Me and I were to give each one what he asked for, that would not cause any loss to Me greater than what is lost when a needle is dipped into the sea.”

Narrated by Muslim (2577).

​

Peace.

 

[Redeemed]

MustafaMc,

Maybe I can word it differently and then tell me what you think???

Islam considers belief in the idea that any man could be held to be equal with God shirk. Muslims think that when we Christians say that Jesus is God that we are committing this sin of making a man equal with God -- though of course we see it differently. And shirk is considered by Islam to be the most grevious of sins, something to be hated. Therefore, although Muslims claim to respect Jesus the human being, Muslims actually hate the idea of Jesus that Christians have. For us Christians this is who Jesus is.

MustafaMc, if I may make a parrallel with regard to you personally... Imagine someone who says that they love Muslims but hate Americans. Where would that leave you? Would you feel loved or hated by such a person.

I have no doubt that Muslims do indeed love and have great respect for the Jesus that they know. I also know that Muslims hate even the idea of the Jesus that I know and have a personal relationship with. It is hard to reconcile those two views of claiming to love Jesus on one hand, and at the same time calling belief in the Jesus that I have come to have a personal relationship with shirk and the most grevious of all sins, so bad that it is hated.


One of the songs I love to sing is called: "Oh, How I Love Jesus"

Chorus:
Oh, how I love Jesus.
Oh, how I love Jesus.
Oh, how I love Jesus.
Because he first loved me.

1) There is a name I love to hear,
I love to sing its worth;
It sounds like music in my ear,
The sweetest name on earth.

Chorus:

2) It tells me of a Savior's love
Who died to set me free;
It tells me of His precious blood,
The sinner's perfect plea.

Chorus:
​

Well, at first, as long as one doesn't use instrumentation -- and I happen to have learned this acapella -- the chorus is one that a Muslim could sing just as much as a Christian. But as you can see from the verse, this song is filled with shirk. From a Christian point of view, to say that you love Jesus, but call the belief in who he is shirk is a complete and utter oxymoron. It is as if you love this idealized psuedo-Jesus that has been created in Islam theology, but fail to love the real Jesus who was born, lived, died, and raised again from the dead for us.

Of course, that gets us back to the heart of this thread's unending discussions, the impasse Muslim Woman spoke of -- Who is the real Jesus? I think what is loved is the Jesus we are each (be one Christian or Muslim) familiar with, and what is really hated is the Jesus that we don't know and don't believe ever existed.





Alaphiana,

Now let me try to help us learn to walk in another's shoes. What I hear MustafaMc and the other Muslims on this board saying is not that they are offended by our relationship with Jesus, they have many times said things equivalent to: "to each person his/her own faith". What they are offended by is that another would try to tell them who Jesus is, when they think they have a better knowledge of him than anyone else could. They are offended that someone would try to lead them away from what they understand the truth to be. For some of them they were once Christians and believe they have examined both Islam and Christianity sufficiently well enough to make up their own minds, and now, when we tell them that they worship a false Jesus, we are not only attacking their faith, but actually challenging whether we preceive them as smart enough to make what they considered to have been an intelligent and rational decision based on the facts. If someone was to say to me, Grace Seeker, you do seem to understand what Islam' claims are, and yet your refused to accept its truth as truth, that is total shirk. I would feel that they were doing more than challenging my faith, I would feel that they had attacked me and my ability to reason. So, it does not surprise me that there are some here who might feel that we have done the same in saying that Islam doesn't tell the truth about Christ and they have therefore chosen unwisely. We may not wish to offend in saying that, we may even say it out of genuine love for a person, and wishing for them to avoid some terrible clamity we see at the end of the path they are on, but as long as we have two different vision of the truth and each others path, our challenges to the other's faith are going to also be challenges to the others ability to perceive and comprehend truth. I don't think there is any getting around this. And when one challenges what I call truth, that is like calling me either a liar or stupid. One doesn't have to use those words, one doesn't even have to think those thoughts, I am smart enough to understand, that this is the only ultimate conclusion available for those who see the same things that I do, yet call it by another name.

Thank you for your interjection. Actually, I see Muslims as very intelligent, but when it comes to the matter of the spiritual ground we stand on, that is of little importance. The way things are really is the religion of Islam attacks the very heart of Christianity, and Christianity does the same to Islam. Let’s call a spade a spade. You said, “If someone was to say to me, Grace Seeker, you do seem to understand what Islam' claims are, and yet your refused to accept its truth as truth, that is total shirk. I would feel that they were doing more than challenging my faith, I would feel that they had attacked me and my ability to reason.” Why would you feel that, and are you saying that in an attempt to identify with our Muslims brothers of humanity? Especially when you have the word of God that says’ “Great peace have they which love thy law and nothing shall offend them.” That is the difference between us Grace Seeker. I agree with very thing you said to MustafaMc, but I wouldn’t get offended or feel that they were attacking me personally if they tell me I can’t see or can see, that Islam is the truth or that I am destined for hell because of shirk especially if I knew they were doing it out of concern for my soul. I would understand. I don’t, however, believe I have been that graphic with them. Some Muslims have just attacked my personality or Character needlessly, because they know that I want them to see who the real Jesus is. Just this statement would be offense to them. Our relationship with non-Christians can and should only be evangelical. What does the Bible say? It says things like it were better for you to had never known the truth then to have heard it and turn away. What did Jesus say to the religious leaders? Most of these Muslims are scholarly. If they were babes who knew nothing of spiritual things, my approach would be different. It is written, “How shall you escape the judgment of God if you neglect so great a salvation.” I would like to see the fruit of our discussions come to a head. There can really be no peace or friendship until we become Muslims or they Christians. Everything Jesus said provoked people to a decision. He was very confrontational at times. I am not always that way, but sometimes I feel led of God to be. If you like, you can challenge my ability to follow God’s leadings. I have operated in the flesh many times before, but if this I say is from God, then beware lest you too be found to be fighting against God. Nevertheless, I appreciate what you trying to do, and I will pray about it further.

 

[Woodrow]

Your argument is understood and I can appreciate your reasons for not being able to accept Islam.

You do not believe the Qur'an to be the final word of Allah(swt).

If you did believe as we do that it truly is his final message for mankind, nothing could stop you from accepting Islam.

I can not give you any proof you would accept that The Qur'an is the truth. Nor can you give me any acceptable proof to accept the Bible as truth.

It all comes down to one thing, which one of us is following the true word of God(swt)

I love God(swt) with all of my being and I truly believe he would never lead me astray and that it is through His words through all of His Prophets(PBUT) that brought me to the path that allowed me the joy of accepting Islam and to sincerly worship and submit to Allah(swt) as he has requested me to do.

Until you can accept that as being the truth there is no common ground of discussions and all arguments are debated with no common reference.

No matter how hard you and I try, we will never be talking about the same subject until we both accept the same reference as being true.

A Muslim can discuss Jesus(as) with another Muslim and they can come to an agreement of his nature based upon reference acceptable for both.

A Christian can discuss Jesus(as) with another Christian and they can come to an agreement of his nature based upon reference acceptable for both.

But a Christian and a Muslim can not agree upon the nature of Jesus(as) as there is no mutual acceptance of the proof.

I believe I am absolutely following Allah(swt) to the best of my ability, my faith is equally strong as the faith of any person who believes different. I can not go against what I know to be true, no matter how attractive a person may think their perspective is. It saddens me deeply to see Christians worshiping an ideal concept of Jesus(as) and believe they are worshiping God(swt). the only consoling thought is I know they are doing so of their own free will and they do have a chance of awakening before they die.

Just a thought. My first wife was a very devout Christian throughout her life. She had very little knowledge of Islam. I was definitely an agnostic trying to live as a Buddhist at the time of her final days. Yet, for some reason within minutes before she died she gained consciousness, smiled and said the Shahadah.Those were her last words. I was not with her when she died but that was related to me later by the doctor who was in attendance with her. At that time neither the Doctor nor myself were Muslim and we could not understand the significance of why she would say the Shahadah. The Doctor was a family friend who was a Roman Catholic Arab from Lebanon and fluent in Arabic.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Woodrow,
First I feel it would be amiss of me to not recognize that you have a related a very personal story with regards to your wife. It is truly an intriguing instance in her life of which you write.

Now, also in your post your write:

No matter how hard you and I try, we will never be talking about the same subject until we both accept the same reference as being true.

I think that is true as long as we expect to convince people based on quote scriptures at people who don't recognize the validity of those scriptures. Quotes from the Qur'an can help me understand what it is that Muslims believe and why they hold to them, and hopefully quotes from the Bible can better explain to Muslims how Christians perceive the realities of God. But you are right that neither is going to convince the other of anything when we are appealing to something that is not recognized as an authority.

But are there not some references that we are able to both hold as true? They may not be of the level of divine authority, but don't we both use observation, reason, and logic to seek to understand the world? Perhaps someplace in their, and in the fact that both of our faiths enjoin us to reach out in compassion and understanding to not only adherents of our faith, but to humanity in general. We can then meet each other as brothers and sisters in humanity, and rather than arguing our differences seek to find and develop our commonalities. I have found that doing this can be very rewarding. I believe that once a true kinship is formed, one that is more than just a few words, but that has living experiences to ground it, that then (and only then) might one of the strength of connection established that is needed to speak of deeper, and potentially divisive things, without incuring enmity.

 

[Woodrow]

Woodrow,
First I feel it would be amiss of me to not recognize that you have a related a very personal story with regards to your wife. It is truly an intriguing instance in her life of which you write.

Now, also in your post your write:

I think that is true as long as we expect to convince people based on quote scriptures at people who don't recognize the validity of those scriptures. Quotes from the Qur'an can help me understand what it is that Muslims believe and why they hold to them, and hopefully quotes from the Bible can better explain to Muslims how Christians perceive the realities of God. But you are right that neither is going to convince the other of anything when we are appealing to something that is not recognized as an authority.

But are there not some references that we are able to both hold as true? They may not be of the level of divine authority, but don't we both use observation, reason, and logic to seek to understand the world? Perhaps someplace in their, and in the fact that both of our faiths enjoin us to reach out in compassion and understanding to not only adherents of our faith, but to humanity in general. We can then meet each other as brothers and sisters in humanity, and rather than arguing our differences seek to find and develop our commonalities. I have found that doing this can be very rewarding. I believe that once a true kinship is formed, one that is more than just a few words, but that has living experiences to ground it, that then (and only then) might one of the strength of connection established that is needed to speak of deeper, and potentially divisive things, without incuring enmity.

Peace Gene,

Your understanding attitude is always appreciated. You are quite correct in saying there are some references we can both agree upon. When you look at it most historical documentation does support the general facts for both of us. Those can be one mutually acceptable reference

Far better we concentrate on similarities and just accept the fact we have differences. In a forum where people have no direct contact and with no personal knowledge of each each other, there is no personal interaction, and that is essential if people desire to speak of differences without incurring enmity.

 

[Redeemed]

Your argument is understood and I can appreciate your reasons for not being able to accept Islam.

You do not believe the Qur'an to be the final word of Allah(swt).

If you did believe as we do that it truly is his final message for mankind, nothing could stop you from accepting Islam.

I can not give you any proof you would accept that The Qur'an is the truth. Nor can you give me any acceptable proof to accept the Bible as truth.

It all comes down to one thing, which one of us is following the true word of God(swt)

I love God(swt) with all of my being and I truly believe he would never lead me astray and that it is through His words through all of His Prophets(PBUT) that brought me to the path that allowed me the joy of accepting Islam and to sincerly worship and submit to Allah(swt) as he has requested me to do.

Until you can accept that as being the truth there is no common ground of discussions and all arguments are debated with no common reference.

No matter how hard you and I try, we will never be talking about the same subject until we both accept the same reference as being true.

A Muslim can discuss Jesus(as) with another Muslim and they can come to an agreement of his nature based upon reference acceptable for both.

A Christian can discuss Jesus(as) with another Christian and they can come to an agreement of his nature based upon reference acceptable for both.

But a Christian and a Muslim can not agree upon the nature of Jesus(as) as there is no mutual acceptance of the proof.

I believe I am absolutely following Allah(swt) to the best of my ability, my faith is equally strong as the faith of any person who believes different. I can not go against what I know to be true, no matter how attractive a person may think their perspective is. It saddens me deeply to see Christians worshiping an ideal concept of Jesus(as) and believe they are worshiping God(swt). the only consoling thought is I know they are doing so of their own free will and they do have a chance of awakening before they die.

Just a thought. My first wife was a very devout Christian throughout her life. She had very little knowledge of Islam. I was definitely an agnostic trying to live as a Buddhist at the time of her final days. Yet, for some reason within minutes before she died she gained consciousness, smiled and said the Shahadah.Those were her last words. I was not with her when she died but that was related to me later by the doctor who was in attendance with her. At that time neither the Doctor nor myself were Muslim and we could not understand the significance of why she would say the Shahadah. The Doctor was a family friend who was a Roman Catholic Arab from Lebanon and fluent in Arabic.

Woodrow were you writing this to me? If yes, you are right I would become a Muslim if I believed that the Qur'an was actually the word of God and Muhammad was the last Messenger. I feel, like you, that only one of the religions can be right, because they are diametrically opposed or mutually exclusive from one another. Both religions are as Muslim Woman states: “People of the Book” in that we both believe in the God of Abraham as the only true God and no other. All other religions can’t even hold a candle to these and yet even these two are deadly to each other. Do you feel that it was God showing you to become Muslim through your daughter and wife? I see something going on here. I could be wrong, but it could be because you were not on good spiritual ground being an agnostic in search of Buddha that your daughter became a Muslim, and she could have been a major influence on your wife. No offense intended, but as a result, instead of you leading or influencing your family spiritually (the way it should have been) they influenced you, and what influenced you is what is keeping you as well. Our world view and environment play a very strong role on what drives us. I was born and raised Catholic and went against all my family tradition to the point of my family disowning. I took a stand for Christ, because I was a Christian called by Christ. I didn’t choose this religion. As far as the rest of what you wrote, it sounds like you are paraphrasing what I have said repetitively to the point that even Christian brothers are questioning my rightness in dialogue with our Muslim brothers of humanity. We agree Woodrow that the only relationship we can have as Christians is on an evangelical bases. Neither can Muslims form a deep kindred friendship with a Christian, but we can love and pray for you. We do, and continue to sow the seed of God’s word into the fabric of Muslim society and hope to God to set the record straight speedily before it is too late. :smile:

You are loved

 

[MustafaMc]

Woodrow were you writing this to me? If yes, you are right I would become a Muslim if I believed that the Qur'an was actually the word of God and Muhammad was the last Messenger. I feel, like you, that only one of the religions can be right, because they are diametrically opposed or mutually exclusive from one another. Both religions are as Muslim Woman states: “People of the Book” in that we both believe in the God of Abraham as the only true God and no other. All other religions can’t even hold a candle to these and yet even these two are deadly to each other.

I agree with this except that Judaism is monotheistic as well.

Do you feel that it was God showing you to become Muslim through your daughter and wife? I see something going on here. I could be wrong, but it could be because you were not on good spiritual ground being an agnostic in search of Buddha that your daughter became a Muslim, and she could have been a major influence on your wife. No offense intended, but as a result, instead of you leading or influencing your family spiritually (the way it should have been) they influenced you, and what influenced you is what is keeping you as well.

This is a prime example of what I would find offensive. How can you presume to know Brother Woodrow's heart? It serves no purpose to speculate on his personal situation beyond what he was so brave and generous to say. This same presumption has been applied to things I have shared as well.

Our world view and environment play a very strong role on what drives us. I was born and raised Catholic and went against all my family tradition to the point of my family disowning. I took a stand for Christ, because I was a Christian called by Christ. I didn’t choose this religion. As far as the rest of what you wrote, it sounds like you are paraphrasing what I have said repetitively to the point that even Christian brothers are questioning my rightness in dialogue with our Muslim brothers of humanity.

It doesn't hurt to reiterate so we come to some common ground.

We agree Woodrow that the only relationship we can have as Christians is on an evangelical bases. Neither can Muslims form a deep kindred friendship with a Christian, but we can love and pray for you. We do, and continue to sow the seed of God’s word into the fabric of Muslim society and hope to God to set the record straight speedily before it is too late. :smile:

You are loved

I would disagree, I have kind feelings toward several Christians on this forum and among non-Muslims I personally know. These are the ones that respect me for who I am and vice versa. Never a post from you without an evangelical jab always presuming that you are right and that we are wrong! At least you are consistent.

 

[MustafaMc]

Sharing one's beliefs effectively and respectfully isn't easy. I think you're right in focussing on telling others what you know to be the truth - some things are too important to remain untold simply out of fear of possibly offending someone's sensibilities. That said, people can sure get offended easily enough! So it's a very delicate balancing act. I suppose so long as you're consistent in your approach, you're at least presenting an honest picture of who you are to others. I probably take a more reserved approach myself (having learnt from earlier encounters in my life), but it's now less to do with me wanting to avoid antagonising others and more to do with my realisation that I don't really know as much as I probably think I do. :hmm:

I appreciate your comments and look forward to some good discussions in the future!

I am sure that you can agree that we hold our respective beliefs close to our innermost being. To challenge another's belief system is akin to challenging his lenses through which he sees and experiences the world. To truly see that a different belief system is true and that the one we hold is false is similar to a scientific paradigm shift which is an extraordinary thing to happen. Having lived through this, I believe that it does not happen except by the Will and Guidance of God. The best that we can do is to share our respective ideas as accurately as possible and to leave the "aha" inspiration to come from above.

 

[MustafaMc]

Islam considers belief in the idea that any man could be held to be equal with God shirk. Muslims think that when we Christians say that Jesus is God that we are committing this sin of making a man equal with God -- though of course we see it differently. And shirk is considered by Islam to be the most grevious of sins, something to be hated. Therefore, although Muslims claim to respect Jesus the human being, Muslims actually hate the idea of Jesus that Christians have. For us Christians this is who Jesus is.

To hate the idea or concept of Christians claiming that Jesus was the Son of God and at the same time fully God is quite different from hating the actual historical being that Jesus was and the living being that he is. We Muslims believe that our understanding of Jesus and God is closer to the Truth than what Christians believe, but likewise the reverse is also true for you.

MustafaMc, if I may make a parrallel with regard to you personally... Imagine someone who says that they love Muslims but hate Americans. Where would that leave you? Would you feel loved or hated by such a person.

Not to be facitious, but it depends on who it is. If it was another Muslim, I would feel loved. I can't think of anyone other than an Iraqi or Afghani Muslim that would hate Americans enough to over ride that initial love.

I have no doubt that Muslims do indeed love and have great respect for the Jesus that they know. I also know that Muslims hate even the idea of the Jesus that I know and have a personal relationship with. It is hard to reconcile those two views of claiming to love Jesus on one hand, and at the same time calling belief in the Jesus that I have come to have a personal relationship with shirk and the most grevious of all sins, so bad that it is hated.

Still it is quite different to love a person, but yet to hate claims made by others about him that are held to be false.

One of the songs I love to sing is called: "Oh, How I Love Jesus"

...​

Well, at first, as long as one doesn't use instrumentation -- and I happen to have learned this acapella -- the chorus is one that a Muslim could sing just as much as a Christian. But as you can see from the verse, this song is filled with shirk. From a Christian point of view, to say that you love Jesus, but call the belief in who he is shirk is a complete and utter oxymoron. It is as if you love this idealized psuedo-Jesus that has been created in Islam theology, but fail to love the real Jesus who was born, lived, died, and raised again from the dead for us.​

Perhaps you fail to see that the flip side of this coin has just as much chance of being true. It is as if you love this idealized psuedo-Jesus that has been created in Christian theology as being God incarnate, but fail to love the real Jesus who was a prophet and messenger of God who came to teach the Jewish community the spirit of the Law and to prophesy the coming of the Comforter.​

Of course, that gets us back to the heart of this thread's unending discussions, the impasse Muslim Woman spoke of -- Who is the real Jesus? I think what is loved is the Jesus we are each (be one Christian or Muslim) familiar with, and what is really hated is the Jesus that we don't know and don't believe ever existed.

Muslims hate the claim that Jesus was the Son of God while Christians hate the claim that Jesus was only a highly respected man who God created. I will have to disagree with you - we both love both Jesus and God. It's just that we are talking apples and oranges here with both claiming they love apples - so to speak.

 

[Woodrow]

Woodrow were you writing this to me? If yes, you are right I would become a Muslim if I believed that the Qur'an was actually the word of God and Muhammad was the last Messenger. I feel, like you, that only one of the religions can be right, because they are diametrically opposed or mutually exclusive from one another. Both religions are as Muslim Woman states: “People of the Book” in that we both believe in the God of Abraham as the only true God and no other. All other religions can’t even hold a candle to these and yet even these two are deadly to each other.

Although it was primarily directed to one of your posts, I would not say it was directed to you personally as I believe it is possible others have similar views as yours. Yes, our difference over the nature of Jesus(as) keep us from coming to full acceptance of each others religious beliefs.

Do you feel that it was God showing you to become Muslim through your daughter and wife? I see something going on here. I could be wrong, but it could be because you were not on good spiritual ground being an agnostic in search of Buddha that your daughter became a Muslim, and she could have been a major influence on your wife. No offense intended, but as a result, instead of you leading or influencing your family spiritually (the way it should have been) they influenced you, and what influenced you is what is keeping you as well. Our world view and environment play a very strong role on what drives us.

With that said I am absolutely certain you did not know me before I reverted. I was not very close to my family. I was not even a very nice person. I was quite self centered very dominating and believed I was the true master of my own destiny. Did it not seem odd that I was not present when my first wife died? From my other posts you may have seen I was quite estranged from my children and it had been many years since I had contact with them. true I was not much of an influence on my family, except maybe my son, who seems to place wealth as the only truth in life. But, at the same time my family, except for my second wife had very little influence on me. Like I said I was not a nice person.

I was born and raised Catholic and went against all my family tradition to the point of my family disowning. I took a stand for Christ, because I was a Christian called by Christ. I didn’t choose this religion. As far as the rest of what you wrote, it sounds like you are paraphrasing what I have said repetitively to the point that even Christian brothers are questioning my rightness in dialogue with our Muslim brothers of humanity. We agree Woodrow that the only relationship we can have as Christians is on an evangelical bases. Neither can Muslims form a deep kindred friendship with a Christian, but we can love and pray for you. We do, and continue to sow the seed of God’s word into the fabric of Muslim society and hope to God to set the record straight speedily before it is too late. :smile:

You are loved

I don't have any disagreement there and I also love you and do pray that your future in eternity will be full of joy.

Oddly although i do tend to paraphrase you it is not meant to belittle your statements. Much of what you say describes Islam if you Substitute Allah(swt) for Jesus(as) and Muslim for Christian.