What is an agnostic?

It is human nature to want to bring others to your way of thinking. Atheists do this re religion yes, but they will also do it re sports and politics, etc.

Beyond that, many atheists, myself included, see many of today's religions as dangerous to society. So it makes perfect sense to try to bring others away from them. Asking this type of atheist why try to bring someone away from these religions is like asking them why try to bring someone away from racism or any other hurtful belief system.

And beyond that, many atheists, myself included, worry a little about social pressure, conformity, mind programming that exists in our society (and this doesn't only apply to religion). People are usually practicing their religion because they were brought up to do so. They were infused with it in their youth. Only a handful of believers have actually ever stopped to question their own beliefs. I respect and admire those who have done so and still retain their beliefs, I think they have a stronger foundation to stand on than the sheeple, but the sheeple still rule.

as an american, i worry plenty about the increasing influence of christianity on my gov't. it isn't really christianity that concerns me, it is the slipping away of separation of church and state that alarms me. actually -it just plain scares me.
i've never belonged to any religion (tho i do believe in god), but i don't think it is nothing but harmful. and i don't see how you can compare it to racism. religion brings a lot of comfort and solace to people, it causes many to study and reflect. it's given people motives to go on living, to give up drugs etc etc. i think it is simplistic to see it as all-negative. it's a mixture.
you pointed out yourself that religion has no monopoly on brainwashing and programming (it's rampant when you consider politics).
personally i don't like religion, as i've said a million other times, but if someone finds that it makes their lives better - why try to change them?
all i know is that i sure don't like it when missionaries come to my door and try to change me! :raging: and you are trying to do the same thing - you're on a mission of your own! altho at least your holy book doesn't require it of you. ;D
i must say no atheist has ever rung my doorbell, tho, thank god!
but why can't people ever let each other just be?
 
i've never belonged to any religion (tho i do believe in god), but i don't think it is nothing but harmful. and i don't see how you can compare it to racism.

Depends on the religion we speak of. If we're talking Jainism, I agree.

If we're talking Christianity, as taken literally (rather than the feel good fluff christians), I disagree. Christianity's base belief is the concept of sin, making all human beings worthy of eternal torture and in need of "saving". Thats awful. Moreover, its inherited sin from Adam, teaching that you are responsible for the wrongdoing of your ancestors. And moreover, it then teaches that FAITH is what will save you, rather than being good and king towards your fellow human beings. And moreover, it teaches that it is ok for an innocent person (Jesus) to take the punishement in the place of the guilty (us) - in no other context is that acceptable.

All of this is fundamentally immoral in my view and I am more than happy to do whatever I can to encourage others to get away from it. And note, I haven't even touched upon the nastiness that is the OT bible (showing a truly psychopathic monster god that these people call loving and just).

And then there is the whole concept that they all, even the fluff ones, consider me deserving of eternal torture because I don't conform to their mindset and worship their imaginary God. What I spoke of in the above paragraphs show the nastiness of religion but this particular part is most on point to your comment about racism. It is easily comparable to racism when they are saying anybody who is not like they are justly deserve to be tortured for all eternity.

And did you know that various surveys and studies in the USA have shown atheists to be the most distrusted and poorly regarded "group". Sure sounds like racism to me. The US has had presidents declaring that atheists should not be considered patriots (bush the first). And many many religious people will tell you that you can not have morals without God (we've seen a slight hint at that in this very thread).

So yes, to many of us many religions' beliefs (I'm only picking on christianity here because its the one I know best) are easily on par with racism.

religion brings a lot of comfort and solace to people

Including those who do horrible things and then use their religion to justify their stance.

i think it is simplistic to see it as all-negative. it's a mixture.

Bad things can have silver linings sure. Thats no reason not to work against them. And I'm actually ok with those feel good fluff christians I spoke of above, who use their religion only as a comfort tool and inspiration for goodness etc... but these Christians are ignoring rather large parts of the bible and still support the base beliefs I noted above.

And more to your point, religion offers nothing you can't find outside religion, including the classic religious draws of comfort, inspiration, a sense of belonging, etc.

you pointed out yourself that religion has no monopoly on brainwashing and programming (it's rampant when you consider politics).

That is true. We should expose it and fight against it in these places too. Far to many people like to be told what to do and what to think, and these sheeple need to wake up and stop being so lazy and easily led and start thinking for themselves.

but if someone finds that it makes their lives better - why try to change them?

Really depends on who they are. I wouldn't make any effort to try to change an old lady whose based her life around her religion and needs to to cope with some life threatening disease.

But I will ALWAYS encourage young minds to question what perceived authority figures are telling them. And I include myself in that. I would never want somebody to believe as I do because I told them to. No. I want them to think for themselves and come to their own conclusions. And If they do come to a religious conclusion, I'm far more ok with that than the vast majority who accept whatever they were fed as a child and remain sheeple.

all i know is that i sure don't like it when missionaries come to my door and try to change me! :raging: and you are trying to do the same thing - you're on a mission of your own!

i must say no atheist has ever rung my doorbell, tho, thank god!

I have yet to meet an atheist who would do that. I have yet to meet an atheist who would even try to convert anybody to atheism. It isn't changing the religious person's mind that we are really after. Its getting them to use their mind to begin with, for something other than affirming what they already believe.
 
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I know this may sound dumb- its confusing enough to work out the difference between a christain and a catholic..... but what is a agnostic?

An agnostic is someone who is noncommittal!-- Noncommittal persons broadly speaking don't make good surgeons or ER staff or anything that requires quick, precise, and deeply thought cerebral approach to any problem-- however, they make for a good example of echopraxia and tend to imitate each other in that regard, if you have visited one website or read a post by such a group or person then, they all tend to run along the same lines.. they are a driven herd!.. However, they do fancy themselves deucedly clever and a part of the few literary and 'scientific' intelligentsia-- I suppose there is no harm in that, until they come and harass people and baiting them into like indecisiveness and vain discourse ! Frankly life is too short for this kind of indecision or to simply exercise a blasé attitude of this magnitude! It is beyond me.... Make a decision or don't come bothering others of your indecision, in my view is how such individuals ought to live until such a time when things become more discernible for them!
hope that helps?
:w:


p.s Snake I wrote this without you in mind, to me you are a deist, who doesn't subscribe to a particular religion... Most Agnostics I have encountered are atheists incognito, I suppose for some fear of reprisal? :confused: ..

peace!
 
Depends on the religion we speak of. If we're talking Jainism, I agree.

If we're talking Christianity, as taken literally (rather than the feel good fluff christians), I disagree. Christianity's base belief is the concept of sin, making all human beings worthy of eternal torture and in need of "saving". Thats awful. Moreover, its inherited sin from Adam, teaching that you are responsible for the wrongdoing of your ancestors. And moreover, it then teaches that FAITH is what will save you, rather than being good and king towards your fellow human beings. And moreover, it teaches that it is ok for an innocent person (Jesus) to take the punishement in the place of the guilty (us) - in no other context is that acceptable.

all the things you have mentioned above, i consider absolutely hideous. this is one reason why i could never be a christian. it is senseless to argue with them on this because belief is based on faith, so it is impossible to prove either way. (which is not the same as saying that it is not real, or that it is false).

All of this is fundamentally immoral in my view and I am more than happy to do whatever I can to encourage others to get away from it. And note, I haven't even touched upon the nastiness that is the OT bible (showing a truly psychopathic monster god that these people call loving and just).

And then there is the whole concept that they all, even the fluff ones, consider me deserving of eternal torture because I don't conform to their mindset and worship their imaginary God. What I spoke of in the above paragraphs show the nastiness of religion but this particular part is most on point to your comment about racism. It is easily comparable to racism when they are saying anybody who is not like they are justly deserve to be tortured for all eternity.

i consider the above atrocious also. but here is something funny: by being upset by this belief and feeling a need to "correct" it, you are agreeing with them that there is an afterlife! if you don't believe in an afterlife, what difference does it make if they believe these things??
you are giving the afterlife the same amount of validity as this life if you can compare this to racism, which is something wrong going on right in the here and now! are you really equating the 2?


And did you know that various surveys and studies in the USA have shown atheists to be the most distrusted and poorly regarded "group". Sure sounds like racism to me. The US has had presidents declaring that atheists should not be considered patriots (bush the first). And many many religious people will tell you that you can not have morals without God (we've seen a slight hint at that in this very thread).

on the above, you are right. if they discriminate against atheists, this is wrong. but not all religious people would, or would condone this. is their religion 100% wrong or is it the discrimination that is wrong? could it be that they don't understand their religion correctly? how would you know?

So yes, to many of us many religions' beliefs (I'm only picking on christianity here because its the one I know best) are easily on par with racism.

once again, not all people who follow a specific religion will act in this way. when they do, it is wrong. it is the action that matters!

Including those who do horrible things and then use their religion to justify their stance.

is this the individual involved using his religion to excuse unacceptable behaviour, or is this his religion?

Bad things can have silver linings sure. Thats no reason not to work against them. And I'm actually ok with those feel good fluff christians I spoke of above, who use their religion only as a comfort tool and inspiration for goodness etc... but these Christians are ignoring rather large parts of the bible and still support the base beliefs I noted above.

again, this is what is wrong. not the religion itself.

And more to your point, religion offers nothing you can't find outside religion, including the classic religious draws of comfort, inspiration, a sense of belonging, etc.

some people are moved by the song of a bird, some are moved by death metal rock music. people are more receptive of some sources of inspiration than others. what's wrong with that?

That is true. We should expose it and fight against it in these places too. Far to many people like to be told what to do and what to think, and these sheeple need to wake up and stop being so lazy and easily led and start thinking for themselves.

this is indeed alarming. but you are trying to do them the exact same thing: tell them what to believe (in this case not believe!) you don't really want them to think for themselves, but to take your word for it over others. your motives may be good, but it is the same.

Really depends on who they are. I wouldn't make any effort to try to change an old lady whose based her life around her religion and needs to to cope with some life threatening disease.

how do you know what is in someone else's heart or what is going on in his life?

But I will ALWAYS encourage young minds to question what perceived authority figures are telling them. And I include myself in that. I would never want somebody to believe as I do because I told them to. No. I want them to think for themselves and come to their own conclusions. And If they do come to a religious conclusion, I'm far more ok with that than the vast majority who accept whatever they were fed as a child and remain sheeple.

as you see by my signature, this is a big thing with me also. but you can stand there and jump up and down all day - why should they listen to you?

I have yet to meet an atheist who would do that. I have yet to meet an atheist who would even try to convert anybody to atheism. It isn't changing the religious person's mind that we are really after. Its getting them to use their mind to begin with, for something other than affirming what they already believe.

i was of course joking about atheists ringing doorbells.
if you want to point out to somebody that they are programmed or not using their minds, why not find some more territory that is less precious to people than their religious beliefs?
there is no end of examples of programming that really lead to horrendous crimes. example: "saddam hussein is a threat to the u.s." people just except this because bush told them so.
if you want to avoid political battles - here's an even better one: advertising. people believe the authoritative voice in the box that tells them that they are too ugly, too fat, or to "square". happens all the time and sells billions of $ worth of totally useless products.
 
Pygoscelis said:
If we're talking Christianity, as taken literally (rather than the feel good fluff christians), I disagree. Christianity's base belief is the concept of sin, making all human beings worthy of eternal torture and in need of "saving". Thats awful. Moreover, its inherited sin from Adam, teaching that you are responsible for the wrongdoing of your ancestors. And moreover, it then teaches that FAITH is what will save you, rather than being good and king towards your fellow human beings. And moreover, it teaches that it is ok for an innocent person (Jesus) to take the punishement in the place of the guilty (us) - in no other context is that acceptable.


Snakelegs said:
i consider the above atrocious also. but here is something funny: by being upset by this belief and feeling a need to "correct" it, you are agreeing with them that there is an afterlife! if you don't believe in an afterlife, what difference does it make if they believe these things??

Not so. I don't believe that they have an afterlife. And I don't have to believe that to find their thinking dangerous and thus oppose it.

I am also upset by white supremecists who believe that white people are a superior race and all others are below human. I do not have to observe them acting on these beliefs for me to object to them. Same with those who hold immoral views based on their religions. Racism by the way is not a set of actions, it is a set of beliefs. Those beliefs then lead to actions (Ie, what Hitler was able to do to Jews because his people saw them as inhuman) but the beliefs alone should raise red flags.

Once they do hold such beliefs their paradigm is tilted, and they ARE prone to act and also to spread their dangerous ideas and have those they infect act in unethical ways.

By opposing Christianity I see myself as opposing the unethical views I noted above.

on the above, you are right. if they discriminate against atheists, this is wrong. but not all religious people would, or would condone this. is their religion 100% wrong or is it the discrimination that is wrong? could it be that they don't understand their religion correctly? how would you know?

If they are not following their own Bible, then I'm happy to see that, but they are then obviously Christian in name only. And they still continue to propogate the book, which is filled with these ideas, which will thus gain a foothold again in the future as those they spread it to read it.

And I seriously think you would be hard pressed to find a Christian who does not believe that Jesus is their saviour, and that his sacrifice erased their sins. That statement contains every one of the negative views I outlined in my opening paragraph. All the other nasty stuff, ie burning witches, homophobia, etc, is just additional negativity added on.

is this the individual involved using his religion to excuse unacceptable behaviour, or is this his religion?

Sometimes one, sometimes the other, sometimes both. In any of these 3 cases, the religion is destructive (its either the cause or its a justifier, or both).

Pygoscelis said:
Bad things can have silver linings sure. Thats no reason not to work against them. And I'm actually ok with those feel good fluff christians I spoke of above, who use their religion only as a comfort tool and inspiration for goodness etc... but these Christians are ignoring rather large parts of the bible and still support the base beliefs I noted above.

Snakelegs said:
again, this is what is wrong. not the religion itself.

By "this" you mean what? That some "fluff" christians ignore their own religion's teaching? I find that a good thing. I just wish they'd drop the trappings then. If they don't follow the bible and actually oppose its ideas, then they should trash it and create a new and friendlier religion. Otherwise they are enabling others that they spread these ideas to to latch onto them.

i was of course joking about atheists ringing doorbells.
if you want to point out to somebody that they are programmed or not using their minds, why not find some more territory that is less precious to people than their religious beliefs?

I do. But that is no reason not to attack it here too. If somebody finds their racism (the analogy you suggested above) to be precious to them, is that any reason not to try to encourage them to question it?

there is no end of examples of programming that really lead to horrendous crimes. example: "saddam hussein is a threat to the u.s." people just except this because bush told them so.

Yes that was awful. And guess what Bush uses time and time again to push his followers to follow him? Religion. He was elected by appealing to the "religious right" in the US.

if you want to avoid political battles - here's an even better one: advertising.

Indeed. And I work on this one extensively. I have worked for years now with Concerned Children's Advertiser's freethought wing. Here are links to two of my favourite advertisements they've put out on Canadian TV. I especially like the second one. Its hillarious and very to the point. They also do workshops with kids in schools from kindergarten to high school. As for this avoiding political battles though, think again. There are is a very powerful force within politics fighting against this sort of effort.

http://www.cca-kids.ca/tvandme/english/video/smart.mov
http://www.cca-kids.ca/tvandme/english/video/hippo.mov
 
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A few points that popped into my head after reading purest ambrosia's post. Perhaps these should be a thread of their own, but I don't feel like starting one :p

1. Is belief or nonbelief in God(s) and belief in which particular religion is right really something you can freely decide? I don't think I could believe in Zues no matter how hard I tried to. Could you?

2. Is it always better to make the wrong choice instead of making no choice?
 
Noncommittal persons broadly speaking don't make good surgeons or ER staff or anything that requires quick, precise, and deeply thought cerebral approach to any problem-
:giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling:
As apposed to theists that are will believe anything that they find in what someone told them was a "Holy Book". :-\
 
i think i just skipped a beat...what are u guys giggling at? theists? if yes, why?...coz they are unable to perform surgery?

sorry to burst the bubble of sarcasm...
 
i think i just skipped a beat...what are u guys giggling at? theists? if yes, why?...coz they are unable to perform surgery?

sorry to burst the bubble of sarcasm...

Someone thinks a person’s entire ability to function in a profession is based on their belief system.:confused:

I wonder what kind of a belief system is necessary to think you are intellectually superior to everyone else. :hiding:
 
Someone thinks a person’s entire ability to function in a profession is based on their belief system.:confused:

I wonder what kind of a belief system is necessary to think you are intellectually superior to everyone else. :hiding:

ohhh ok...were attacking 'someone'...i dnt knwo who that is..i havent read that far into the thread...but...

i can say that that thought is wrong,...very wrong...and a little ignorant as well..no offense...

also, a belief system to think ur above everyone else...well judaism is one...not pointing the finger...its in the religion...and i guess out right narcisism...

again...no fingers being pointed at anyone...im just flowing with the thread.
 
ohhh ok...were attacking 'someone'...i dnt knwo who that is..i havent read that far into the thread...but...

i can say that that thought is wrong,...very wrong...and a little ignorant as well..no offense...

also, a belief system to think ur above everyone else...well judaism is one...not pointing the finger...its in the religion...and i guess out right narcisism...

again...no fingers being pointed at anyone...im just flowing with the thread.
Yes attacking someone is wrong,...very wrong...and a little ignorant as well.. :thumbs_do
The original attacker has a long history of insulting people. :offended:
 
Yes attacking someone is wrong,...very wrong...and a little ignorant as well.. :thumbs_do
The original attacker has a long history of insulting people. :offended:

no no no mate...

i was talking about the initial attacker...he/she is ignorant and wrong...

not u guys...i find the thought that ppl who dnt have belief systems cant do critical thinking etc etc wrong...

so i guess i was also sort of attacking 'someone'...

all credits to u and ur counter-attacking...

peace.
 
no no no mate...

i was talking about the initial attacker...he/she is ignorant and wrong...

not u guys...i find the thought that ppl who dnt have belief systems cant do critical thinking etc etc wrong...

so i guess i was also sort of attacking 'someone'...

all credits to u and ur counter-attacking...

peace.
Thank you. I truly appreciate what you said. :thumbs_up :thumbs_up

It is 1:00 AM, I need to get to bed. So have a good night.

Thanks Again,
Wilber
 
An agnostic is someone who is noncommittal!-- !

Untrue. Sweeping generalisations are not usually helpful. This is like saying "Muslims are dogmatic" or "Bhuddists are lazy", so it's just lightweight bigotry, well worth discarding.

Agnostics are as likely to be focused on something like surgery or science far more than a Theist of a major religion. In evrything the Theist Surgeon does they are asking for God to guide them and their mind is on God not the job.

Most Agnostics are people who shrug their shoulders about theology and say " I dunno, dont really care- ive more things to do in this real life than a possibility of some life after it"

The Agnostics here are the ones who think about theology, and so they have questions to ask. Awkward questions which Theists find difficult or impossible to answer. This will cause the reaction of some theists to be dismissive , angry or ridiculing.

Thats all folks!
 
I consider myself an a (weak) atheist because I see no prove for God's or any other deities' existance. The only arguement that isnt self-contradictory is the God of the gaps arguement, but then your simply replacing the word ignorant with God.

I am open to the possibility of his/it/their existance, but at the same lv of openess that I consider invisible flying toads with crazy mind controlling powers to exist. So its so small, its simply easier to say it probably doesnt exist.
Strong atheism though is really a folly of logic as you cant really prove a negative.

With all that said, I also feel many (contemporary) atheists, or 'youtube atheism' is on par with theistic fundamentalism, in that the border somewhere between delusional and retarded. I am tired of these psedo-atheists acting as though atheists are inherently better to theists or that atheism automatically means you are morally superior and that you must follow X secular ethics.
Honestly, I consider a theist someone who is simply comfortable with their current standing philosophically and metaphically. How is in any different than my understanding of how my tv works? You could tell me some lie and I would most likely believe it because I am comfortable and feel no motivation to investigate further. Its just a matter of interest.

Sometimes out of spite, I play stupid and indulge these supposed 'free-thinkers' and let them spout off their garbage of some supposide perfect ethical system they have discovered. Then I poke holes. If I feel lazy Ill just attack Dawkins strange assumption that atheism = humanism. For 'free-thinkers' they certainly do get angry when you speak ill of the 'atheist prophet'. lol
 
Sometimes out of spite, I play stupid and indulge these supposed 'free-thinkers' and let them spout off their garbage of some supposide perfect ethical system they have discovered. Then I poke holes. If I feel lazy Ill just attack Dawkins strange assumption that atheism = humanism. For 'free-thinkers' they certainly do get angry when you speak ill of the 'atheist prophet'. lol

Those who know me from this board probably won't believe me when I type this, but I do the same thing :)

There is indeed a certain group of atheists who try to speak for "atheists" and try to decide what atheists believe. Atheism is nothing more than a lack of belief in Gods. Full stop. That's it. There is nothing else to it. Atheism is not humanism and it is not whatever other ethical system these people try to pin on it. It is ironic when ones try to call themselves "free-thinkers" or "brights" (anybody remember that idiocy?). They are not freethinking; they are blindly following a doctrine, just like religious people do.

That said, this group of "atheists" though outspoken and organized are a very small minority of atheists in general. Most atheists are difficult to organize precisely because they have nothing in common other than their lack of belief in gods and perhaps their concerns about religion doing harm to society (but then not all atheists see religion as harmful).

I must say though, it also annoys me when people speak of writers like Dawkins as "atheist prophets". I don't follow Dawkins and I find him horrid. He doesn't speak for me and he doesn't speak for atheism or for anti-religion. Refering to Dawkins, or Darwin, as "atheist leaders" is a button many theists like to push to annoy atheists, and it works because it shows a fundamental lack of understanding of what atheism is and it tries to attribute a group identity and group think to people who usually treasure their free thinking and individuality (If they didn't they'd stay or become the prevailing religion in their community - its a much easier life)
 
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Untrue. Sweeping generalisations are not usually helpful. This is like saying "Muslims are dogmatic" or "Bhuddists are lazy", so it's just lightweight bigotry, well worth discarding.

Agnostics are as likely to be focused on something like surgery or science far more than a Theist of a major religion. In evrything the Theist Surgeon does they are asking for God to guide them and their mind is on God not the job.

Most Agnostics are people who shrug their shoulders about theology and say " I dunno, dont really care- ive more things to do in this real life than a possibility of some life after it"

The Agnostics here are the ones who think about theology, and so they have questions to ask. Awkward questions which Theists find difficult or impossible to answer. This will cause the reaction of some theists to be dismissive , angry or ridiculing.

Thats all folks!

You ran a random double blind study on what sorts of folks go into surgery? or are you speaking from eye witness account? or are you undoing a generaliZation with another? Most good doctors, are ones that will admit their limitations, and know God indeed works through them, they chisel, excise, mediate, listen and prescribe, console, they are indeed arbiters, therapists, but the actual healing comes from something nothing short of a miracle, perhaps they give a tiny nudge and even that fails at times.. you'd pay $400 a tube of beclapermin and still most likely die of your stage four decubitus, over something that was given you endogenously, naturally, under physiological conditions, indeed the ability to heal is nothing short of a miracle, perhaps a great deal of theists simply know something you don't? ( every diminutive detail by your standards, is nothing short of a miracle, here is your sign, one after the next, find it where you will) don't find it at all, it is inconsequential to most of us-- but an Atheist isn't a 'free thinker', in fact if you wished a more descriptive attribute, it would be that of an ingrate, I take away one of your naturally bestowed accolades and just you watch, what you'd pay to be well again!

--- at least I base my opinion on something I actually witness, something factual!... 65% of doctors believe in God! and believe that their patients who believe in God had generally a more positive outcome that their 'noncommittal' counter parts, either way, I don't see why it should bother you what I say or write one way or the other?... I reckon you'll go to your grave the way you are, and what you say frankly doesn't have much effect on me save the minor irritations every now and then.

Is it that Atheists really love the sight of their own writing and the sound of their own voice that drives them to bore everyone along with them? Do you have something to prove? I don't! I parted with my two cents, and how you view my two cents doesn't impact me in the least-- it is disturbing however, this incessant need to prove that Atheists are the proud few intelligentsia, when in fact they represent no more than 7-10% of any population in their own way a driven herd who will go to any extreme to make a moot (un-provable) point most peddling their brochures even here on board, and on a personal level, I just find them lacking something human, deep and spiritual (I don't believe that will change) I can sign on any day and read something by Rav, Eric H or Grace seeker, and be thoroughly touched and pleased though, I might not agree with them on certain theological aspects.. there is still something unequivocally real and human.. I have not experienced the same from any Atheist on board.. everything runs in the way of a cheap antic, a quick liner, I know they are not really looking for a serious response and readily drive gratification out of simplistic conclusions -- to me they are assimilated to a life stipped of poetry, art, or natural adornment of the cosmos, like a day without night or vice versa, just incomplete!

my only sound advise is, stop wasting your too brief a life on a forum..You are not going to make a difference in how anyone perceives anything, in fact thinking so almost borders on a grand delusion accompanied by a psychotic disorder ( I can't think of a faster way to get you committed) than to walk around boastful that you have made some change in a young impressionable youth's life! if s/he is swayed by you, they will be by anything that comes their way, that is what most would classify as fickle!...if I had nothing to believe, I'd be eating life up right now... what is holding you back and freezing you in front of your computer?

Physicians View Religiosity as Factor in Patients' Health

By Judith Groch, Senior Writer, MedPage Today
Reviewed by Robert Jasmer, MD; Associate Clinical Professor of Medicine, University of California, San Francisco
April 10, 2007


Add Your Knowledge™ Additional Alternative Medicine Coverage


CHICAGO, April 10 -- A majority of physicians in a large survey declared that religion and spirituality, including divine intervention, affect their patients' health.

The survey of more than a thousand practicing physicians found that 56% believe religion and spirituality have a significant effect on health, researchers reported in the April 9 issue of the Archives of Internal Medicine.
Action Points

Explain to interested patients that, for the most part, physicians believe patients' religious or spiritual beliefs have a positive effect on health.


If patients ask, explain that physicians' own religious beliefs are likely to influence their perception of the effect of religion on health.
Nearly as many said that on occasion the influence is attributable to divine intervention, said Farr A. Curlin, M.D., of the University of Chicago, and colleagues. Yet only a few said that these beliefs change "hard" medical outcomes.


"We find it notable, particularly in light of perennial discussions about the relationship between science and faith, that most physicians apply medical science while maintaining a belief that God intervenes in patients' health," said Dr. Curlin and colleagues.


The survey also found that the physicians' perceptions were strongly influenced by their own religious convictions. "Patients are likely to encounter quite different opinions about the relationship between their religion and spirituality and their health, depending on the religious characteristics of their physicians," the authors wrote.


Although many patients draw on prayer and other religious resources to manage the spiritual challenges that arise from illness, controversy has remained about whether, and to what extent, religion and spirituality help or harm patients, Dr. Curlin and colleagues said.


To study this relationship, the researchers mailed a cross-sectional survey in 2003 to a stratified, random potential sample of 2,000 practicing U.S. physicians, 65 or younger, representing all specialties.


Physicians were asked to estimate how often patients mentioned religion and spiritual issues, how much these issues influenced health, and in what ways the influence manifested itself.


The survey also included questions to determine the physicians' own religious characteristics, general observations, and interpretations of religion.


Among eligible physicians, the response rate was 63% (1,144 of 1,820), and the average age of the physicians was 49. Most physicians (56%) believed that spiritual issues had much or very much influence on health, while 54% believed that at times a supernatural being intervenes, the researchers reported.


However, although 85% of the physicians believed that the influence of spirituality is generally positive, only 6% perceived that these beliefs often changed "hard" medical outcomes.


Rather, the study found that 76% of the physicians believed that spirituality helps patients cope, 74% said that it gives patients a positive state of mind, while 55% reported that spirituality and religion provide emotional and practical support via the religious community.


Only 7% of the physicians said that spirituality often causes guilt, anxiety, or other negative emotions, while 2% said it leads patients to decline medically indicated therapy, and 4% reported that patients use it to avoid responsibility for their own health. Finally, about one-third said it can have these harmful influences sometimes.


The physicians' observations and interpretations were strongly influenced by their own religious beliefs, the researchers said.


Compared with those with low religiosity, highly religious physicians were substantially more likely to report that patients often mention spiritual issues (36% versus 11%; P<0.001).


They were also more likely to believe that religion and spirituality strongly influence health (82% versus 16%; P<0.001), and to interpret the influence of religion and spirituality in positive rather than negative ways, the researchers found.


These associations persisted in multivariate analyses that controlled for religious affiliation, region of practice, age, sex, ethnicity, and specialty.


In further analyses, comparing physicians with religious affiliations with those with no religious affiliation, Protestant physicians were more likely to report that their patients bring up spiritual issues and are more likely to believe that God intervenes, that spirituality helps patients cope, and sometimes prevents hard medical outcomes.


Catholic physicians put their faith in God's intervention first and also agreed that belief helps patients cope. They were less likely to say that belief causes negative emotions.


Physicians of other religious affiliations were more likely to report that their patients bring up spiritual issues, that God intervenes, and that spirituality strongly influences health and sometimes prevents hard medical outcomes.


Finally, physicians who practiced in the South, followed by the Midwest, were more likely to report that their patients often mention religious beliefs, with those in the West and Northeast not as likely to do so.


This survey indicated, said Dr. Curlin and colleagues, that religious issues may influence end-of-life care in which some patients and families express hopes for miracles. Because religious physicians may be more likely to share such hopes, further study is needed to explore how these differences may affect the care patients receive.


As a cross-sectional survey, this study was not able to explain why religious and non-religious physicians differed so markedly in their observations and interpretations, the researchers said.


Yet it is possible, they said, that other factors being equal, physicians with different religious or secular commitments may interpret the same evidence in different ways. What the secular physician may not notice or ignore, the religious physician may emphasize or exaggerate.


The study had important limitations, the investigators wrote. Although the study had a better-than-average response rate and there was no substantial evidence to suggest response bias, religious and other characteristics may have affected physicians' willingness to respond in unmeasured ways.


There may also have been other ways to define physicians' religiosity. However, the analyses found similar relationships for frequency of attendance at religious services and self-reported religiousness, the investigators said.


Limitations, notwithstanding, the investigators said, these findings challenge any attempt to create a single interpretation of the relationship between religion and health. The study lends support to recommendations by the Association of American Medical Colleges that physicians recognize how their own beliefs affect the way they provide care for their patients.


"Future studies should examine the ways physicians' religion (and secular) commitments shape their clinical engagements in these and other domains," Dr. Curlin concluded.


No financial disclosures were reported. The study was funded by the Greenwall Foundation of New York, the Robert Wood Johnson Clinical Scholars Program, and the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine.



Additional Alternative Medicine Coverage

Primary source: Archives of Internal Medicine
Source reference:
Curlin FA, et al "Physicians' Observations and Interpretations of the Influence of Religion and Spirituality on Health" Arch Intern Med 2007; 167:649-654.

P.S I don't find any theological questions difficult to answer or too thought provoking as to shake the very foundation of my belief system... your inability to accept the answer has more to do with your own heart and psyche than an actual flaw on part of the theists... with that said, I am actually done with this topic... "I toast those who will and those who won't".. but not those who say they will and then decide they won't! (leave that is).. if you catch my drift? as I thought you had long said your goodbyes yet grace us again with your presence?!


peace!
 
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Not so. I don't believe that they have an afterlife. And I don't have to believe that to find their thinking dangerous and thus oppose it.

oh, ok. if i don't believe that something exists in the first place, or if it does, that what the person is saying about it is wrong - then i see no reason why his beliefs would upset me in any way because the subject doesn't exist. (btw - i have no belief re: afterlife. its something that doesn't really much interest me.)

I am also upset by white supremecists who believe that white people are a superior race and all others are below human. I do not have to observe them acting on these beliefs for me to object to them. Same with those who hold immoral views based on their religions. Racism by the way is not a set of actions, it is a set of beliefs. Those beliefs then lead to actions (Ie, what Hitler was able to do to Jews because his people saw them as inhuman) but the beliefs alone should raise red flags.

the "enemy" is always portrayed as subhuman, simply because it makes them easier to kill. but i agree with you completely.
i have a hard time seeing racism as the same as some christian who is convinced that i will burn in hell forever because i don't believe in christian dogma. that seems a bit of a stretch to me.


Once they do hold such beliefs their paradigm is tilted, and they ARE prone to act and also to spread their dangerous ideas and have those they infect act in unethical ways.

you may have a point here - but if so, then what you are doing could be viewed "pre-emptive strikes" ;D

By opposing Christianity I see myself as opposing the unethical views I noted above.

you have a mission!!! ;D ;D ;D
i don't believe anything that christians believe - but see no reason to oppose them. if i think their views are nonesense, then why would i spend time on the subject?


If they are not following their own Bible, then I'm happy to see that, but they are then obviously Christian in name only. And they still continue to propogate the book, which is filled with these ideas, which will thus gain a foothold again in the future as those they spread it to read it.

the bible is the most violent book i have ever read.

And I seriously think you would be hard pressed to find a Christian who does not believe that Jesus is their saviour, and that his sacrifice erased their sins. That statement contains every one of the negative views I outlined in my opening paragraph. All the other nasty stuff, ie burning witches, homophobia, etc, is just additional negativity added on.

so do you regard every christian as a potential witch hunter, inquisition employee, etc.?


Sometimes one, sometimes the other, sometimes both. In any of these 3 cases, the religion is destructive (its either the cause or its a justifier, or both).

indeed it can be (and has been) extremely destructive. but isn't it a big leap from there to say that we must "correct" the christian next door?



By "this" you mean what? That some "fluff" christians ignore their own religion's teaching? I find that a good thing. I just wish they'd drop the trappings then. If they don't follow the bible and actually oppose its ideas, then they should trash it and create a new and friendlier religion. Otherwise they are enabling others that they spread these ideas to to latch onto them.

i guess i tend to believe that if a person is a hateful, murderous person, he will use whatever tool he has, religion, political ideology, etc. as an excuse or motivation for his crime. it is the act that is the crime.


I do. But that is no reason not to attack it here too. If somebody finds their racism (the analogy you suggested above) to be precious to them, is that any reason not to try to encourage them to question it?

as a non-christian growing up in the 50's, i had christians trying to convert me ever since i was a child. i have very little tolerance for missionaries. to me, trying to force your beliefs on a person, is an attitude of violence and arrogance. i see atheists no differently. they are convinced that they are right, know "the truth" and must correct the "misguided" - can anything be more arrogant or condescending? and the atheist knows "the truth" just as the christian knows "the truth". can you see the similarity?
it reaches the absurd point that someone can post a poem (as was done recently) or interpret something they observe in nature as confirmation of god's existence. you may not agree, but what is wrong with that? why do some atheists (i don't know if you were one of them or not, cuz i just skimmed through it) come rushing out and "correct" him. do you see nothing wrong with that picture, with that attitude???
i see this over and over on this forum and it gets absurd and can be quite irritating.



Yes that was awful. And guess what Bush uses time and time again to push his followers to follow him? Religion. He was elected by appealing to the "religious right" in the US.

absolutely! this concerns me very much - the growth of the christian right and its influence on/in our government. it is very alarming indeed and scary.
but i am not going to pounce on a christian and try to "correct" him.
i deplore racism as much as you do - and maybe for that very reason, i am convinced that we need to learn how to live with and respect people who have other cultures and beliefs.
i am certainly not going to hang around a christian forum so i can preach "the truth" and "enlighten" the simple minded! this is what i don't understand.
now where i will turn in to an intolerant and down right nasty person, is if one of those christians persists in trying to shove his beliefs down my throat - but that is a separate issue and some atheists are not that different!
i don't want unsolicited "enlightenment" from any source!

there are many americans who believe that "we must support our president". this is horrendous! such people are ripe for the picking of someone like hitler, or potentially, bush. another statement that sets off my alarms is "we need a good leader". but i'm sure you no doubt have the same reaction.



Indeed. And I work on this one extensively. I have worked for years now with Concerned Children's Advertiser's freethought wing. Here are links to two of my favourite advertisements they've put out on Canadian TV. I especially like the second one. Its hillarious and very to the point. They also do workshops with kids in schools from kindergarten to high school. As for this avoiding political battles though, think again. There are is a very powerful force within politics fighting against this sort of effort.

http://www.cca-kids.ca/tvandme/english/video/smart.mov
http://www.cca-kids.ca/tvandme/english/video/hippo.mov

this whole subject of advertising and mind control is horrendous. there are people who spend their entire lives buying crap that they are told will make them more beautiful, loveable, successful, happy etc etc - and that they are not good enough the way the are. a whole nation (world?) believing that more things is the solution to everything.

and here is the best part of all. i am trying to change you to believe that it is wrong to try to change people!!!! ;D ;D
 
Snakelegs said:
i have a hard time seeing racism as the same as some christian who is convinced that i will burn in hell forever because i don't believe in christian dogma.

It isn't just that they believe you will burn in hell forever. It is that they AGREE that it is JUST for you to burn in hell forever. You don't have to believe their dogma to see how morally bankrupt it is. And all of these negative views can and do carry over from their religion to their other views. Religious views do not exist in a vacuum.

Christianity teaches self-depreciation (we all deserve eternal torure). And it teaches that belief and worship are the way out instead of works. Those who disbelieve are not to be saved and are to be punished. Is it any wonder that highly religious countries such as the US are highly authoritarian and people there will snap at you for questioning the authority figure? Is it any wonder that disasters in the distant future like global warming are ignored, when a good portion of the country sees the end of the world as soon to come and as being a GOOD THING?

Christianity teaches inherited blame. It says that we should be punished for what our ancestor, Adam did. Can you see bad behavoiurs that may result if this mindset is copied over to other aspects of life?

Christianity teaches that blood and death are the way to make up for wrongdoing, rather than good deeds. It teaches that we are forgiven our sins not by working them off but by the death and torture of Jesus. Is it any suprise that the US allows capital punishment? And that so often punishment is placed above reform and reparation?

Chrisitanity, and most other religions, teach a black and white, good vs evil, God vs Satan view of the world. Is it then any wonder that US politics are so sharply polarized and binary and ingroup/outgroup? "We must destroy the evildoers before they destroy us". "You are with us or against us".

i don't believe anything that christians believe - but see no reason to oppose them. if i think their views are nonesense, then why would i spend time on the subject?

Because their views effect you.

Do you also ignore white supremecists or those who speak speak terrorist sentiments?

the bible is the most violent book i have ever read.

Indeed, and if it were released for the first time today, as a novel or a movie, it would likely be banned as hate speech designed to encourage violence and intolerance. But because it is a religious holy book it is taboo to speak a word against it.

so do you regard every christian as a potential witch hunter, inquisition employee, etc.?

No, because secularism has subdued this part of Christianity in the west. But so long as the bible reads as it does and so long as Christians continue to pass it off as the word of God, the part of Christianity you refer to is merely subdued, not dead, and it could very well rise up again.

but isn't it a big leap from there to say that we must "correct" the christian next door?

I don't advocate "correcting" the christian next door. I don't "correct" the racists next door either. We're not about to round people up like an inquisition.

But we should speak against these things, and we should encourage people to question the authority that pushes these beliefs on them and to question these beliefs themselves by looking at them in other contexts. We should not allow Christian to go unchallanged. Our voices as non believers need to be heard as well.

i guess i tend to believe that if a person is a hateful, murderous person, he will use whatever tool he has, religion, political ideology, etc. as an excuse or motivation for his crime. it is the act that is the crime.

That is true. But its far easier to justify attrocity to yourself and your society when there is a handy religious texts to support it.

And as I mentioned above, many religions encourage hate and intolerance. For example, do you know many non-religious people who oppose same sex couples having equal rights to heterosexual couples? Or is it mostly religous people who take this stance? And if you've asked those religious people why they descriminate like this, have they ever given you good rational and fair explanations, or do they just tell you its an "abonimation" and their God declares it "evil"? At the extreme you've got Fred Phelps - and he and those like him have plenty of bible passages directly backing their views.

it reaches the absurd point that someone can post a poem (as was done recently) or interpret something they observe in nature as confirmation of god's existence. you may not agree, but what is wrong with that? why do some atheists (i don't know if you were one of them or not, cuz i just skimmed through it) come rushing out and "correct" him. do you see nothing wrong with that picture, with that attitude???

I was not one of them. Was it posted in a fellowship section of the board or here in "Comparative Religion"? If the former I'd equate an atheist jumping in and "correcting" the post to somebody rushing into a mosque or church and screaming at everybody. Rude. But if it was here in "Comparative Religion" I see nothing wrong with people pointing out the flaws in the logic.

absolutely! this concerns me very much - the growth of the christian right and its influence on/in our government. it is very alarming indeed and scary.
but i am not going to pounce on a christian and try to "correct" him.

So you are alarmed by the growth of the christian right and its influence but you feel it is wrong to do anything about it?

i am certainly not going to hang around a christian forum so i can preach "the truth" and "enlighten" the simple minded! this is what i don't understand.

Nor will I. I find that offensive too. People like Dawkins (the author of "the god delusion") do more harm than good. But I also won't just sit around and smile as a hateful ideology spreads and tries to control my environment either. That is just as bad, if not worse.

this whole subject of advertising and mind control is horrendous. there are people who spend their entire lives buying crap that they are told will make them more beautiful, loveable, successful, happy etc etc - and that they are not good enough the way the are. a whole nation (world?) believing that more things is the solution to everything.

Yep. They try to control what you wear, what you eat, and what you believe about just about everything so that they can profit from it. Advertising, religion, fashion "trends", it is all the same deal.

and here is the best part of all. i am trying to change you to believe that it is wrong to try to change people!!!!

Tell that to Martin Luther King Jr. It is not wrong to try to change people's beliefs and opinions, especially if those beliefs and opinions are harmful or dangerous. Its just a matter of how you go about it.
 
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