Hi Ranma
I'm glad to see you decided to drop the hit and run tactics from before. So I'll try to be nicer to.
The writing style is of course different than harry potter and other books but that does not make it superior. Its like saying this couch is made from black leather and so its better than yours with only cloth. Its just subjective.
The challenge from the Qur'an you mentioned, has some intrinsic wisdom to it. It's very purpose is to make people consider how hard it is to write such a book and how implausible it is that Muhammed (pbuh) made it up. You are right that "better" is a relative term. Then again I wouldn't use that specific term. Instead I would say that if you look at all the characteristics it has, it makes it unthinkable that a human wrote it, because I cannot imagen a human combining all these characteristics in one book with such elegance and balance. Even if it took 22 years.
The content of the books also differ but in quality of writing we once again get into subjective opinion. I see Harry potter to be a better written book.
I think you're forgetting like Keltoi pointed out that we shouldn't be comparing books, but instead religious books. The main feature of the Qur'an is that it is a guide for mankind. To use your own analogy, when you start comparing Harry potter to the Qur'an that is very similar to comparing a chair to a sofa and then saying:
"The chair is a better sofa then the sofa is because I prefer sitting in a sofa."
But you're forgetting the chair isn't a sofa at all, the similarity of the two objects is that both are objects to sit on. Just as the only similarity between child-novels and spiritual guidance is that both messages are written on pages binded in book form. But If I were a sofa-manufacturer who's competing for the title of ultimate sofa and challenge my competitors, and you bring a chair. Obviously you would have mocked me sofa-building techniques. I hope you understand now why I lost my patience earlier.
Its apparently more easily translatable into other languages.
I would argue that translatability is of lesser importance. If somebody who doesn't know Arabic wants to get the full message they can always read a tafsir. See the thing is, translatability would make it's style less unique. It would mean that it's style is easily copied in other languages. Which would make it less special and hence less of a "proof" for mankind.
I find the morals presented in other books to be better than the quran “once again a subjective opinion”.
I don't think morality itself is subjective. I do think that when people have a preference of morality that it is subjective. To give an example:
It is immoral to get drunk, because once you get drunk you'll loose your inhibitions and be immoral. So getting drunk enables immorality and is hence immoral by itself. Now, an alcoholic might say he doesn't like this morality I just presented, be that as it may, I think everybody in his right mind will see that the alcoholic himself will be much better off without alcohol. Ther might be other books that present morality. But so far I haven't found a book that presents it in such a complete, workable and universal way.
I also find that the billions of books written out there that are much longer and better written as well as written in a much shorter time.
I would argue, that quality is more important then quantity.
The subject of scientific miracles has been discussed many times on this forum and you being a mod surely have read them. It amounts to any actual knowledge in the quran was known at the time and borrowed from other sources. Any supposed knowledge is just misreading or changing meaning of words to fit some new concept. And some are just plain wrong. If you want to discuss this please post in the scientific miracles of the quran thread.
Inshaallah I will do so after this post.
Its been discussed the quran is universal. Here we seem to disagree on what universal means in this case my view universal is….
Universal : Common to all members of a group or class.
I do not deem the quran as a book to be accepted universally since I find its morals, its science and other parts to be flawed, poor, many times immoral etc… “of course that’s my opionon on morality” .
It's not universal because you don't like it? There are people out of all classes and groups that have accepted it, like your definition requires. Just because you don't accept it does not mean it's not universal. It seems to me that you're implying that for universality
all people should have to accept it. But that would defeat the purpose of testing us. Or to say it in the Qur'an's words:
Surely Allah is not ashamed to set forth any parable-- (that of) a gnat or any thing above that; then as for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord, and as for those who disbelieve, they say: What is it that Allah means by this parable: He causes many to err by it and many He leads aright by it! but He does not cause to err by it (any) except the transgressors, (al-baqara:26)
The fact that others can not read the quran “correctly” unless they know Arabic “and even then you need scholars to tell you what it means” prevents it from being universal.
To this argument I would reply with the same verse as before. But there are levels to its meanings. some parts are very literal and easy to understand whereas others are metaphorical. Some parts are stories of the other prophets, where other parts are direct answers to events in the life of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) and his followers. Although most people indeed do not understand many parts without proper explanation; the little I understood out of reading the translations was already sufficient proof for me and many other people to revert to Islam. I would even say that if the Qur'an was of such nature that anybody understands it to it's full depths from the first go, then it wouldn't be very special now would it?
So as a general conclusion I would say that most of your criticism comes from not seeing all the characteristics as one. The miracle of it is not only that it has several characteristics, but also that they are well balanced even though one characteristic makes the other harder. All the more reason why any book you'd bring foreward for this challenge should have
all of the characteristics.
