Competitor for the Holy Qur'an

[Abdul Fattah]

Oh so the Qur'an is not the guide of millions of people?
The Qur'an has not touched millions of people?

Please read: http://www.logicalfallacies.info/appealtopopularity.html

Hi Basirah

I understand that when you arrive at a thread that has been going for a while it's not pleasant to go trough every single posts before replying. However if you don't, you can easily misinterpret arguments.

I am very much aware of logical fallacies. And I try very hard not to resort to them. And I'm quite confident that the argument you quoted from me wasn't a logical fallacy. Allow me to explain what you missed:

*First of all I mentioned that Muslims believe that the Qur'an is divine not because it says so, but rather because of it's intrinsic features. And Allah subhana wa ta'ala challenges people to make a book like it, knowing fully well that it is not possible for mankind to do so. And I asked for people to come and present any book that they think fit the bill.
*Ranma replied to this by listing children novels.
*I replied to that (among other arguments) that those books are not religious guidance which is apparent by the fact that there are no people leading their live by those books as opposed to millions of people leading their lives by the Qur'an.
*To this Ranma replied (in general) that he disagrees with the Qur'an having the characteristics I mentioned.
*Not knowing which of the characteristics he meant by that statement, I listed them saying among other items on my list: Oh so the Qur'an is not the guide of millions of people?

So you see, my argument was not a logical fallacy at all. If I were to have argued that the Qur'an is true because millions of people follow it, yes then you would have been right. But that is clearly not the case here.

 

[ranma1/2]

Hi Ranma
.....I think you're forgetting like Keltoi pointed out that we shouldn't be comparing books, but instead religious books. The main feature of the Qur'an is that it is a guide for mankind. To use your own analogy, when you start comparing Harry potter to the Qur'an that is very similar to comparing a chair to a sofa and then saying: "The chair is a better sofa then the sofa is because I prefer sitting in a sofa."......

The point was that there is no better writing and my point is there are much better written books. there are better guides to living and better books of poetry. Even if the quran is a excellent book of poetry "which is subjective" it seems to me that there are many books out there that are better guides for humanity.
Being a guide for mankind i find the quran a poor one. it, like many religious books, creates seperatism "mine is better than yours etc..." and has some very poor morals. "its very puritanical toward sexuality to name some."
Of course morality is also subjective and varies from culture to culture so this is expected.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Re: A question on faith (for atheists)

Salaam/peace;

superior how?

......
harry potter,

.

;D


So , u believe reading Harry P will save us from hell fire ???

H P is a guide line for the whole humanity for this life & hereafter ?



:giggling: :giggling:





HP can be memorized by millions whose mother tongue is not Eng ? :hmm:

So many things can be said …but may be it will be a wastage of time to debate with a person who does not believe in God.


verses we all need for this life & the hereafter

Consider the heavens and that which comes in the night!

And what could make you conceive what it is that comes in the night? It is the star that pierces through [life's] darkness: [for] no human being has ever been left unguarded.


-Quran (86:1-4)




God invites [man] unto the abode of peace, and guides him that wills onto a straight way.

-Quran (10:25)

 

[barney]

Ranny, the miracle of the Quran is felt in Muslims hearts.
They cant prove that it's divine...they just "know" it is because they "feel" it is.

Imagine that you read harry potter. That it had been read to you from birth, every day. that you were coerced into reciting the Adventures of Ron Weasley by society. Imagine that the whole of society was wrapped up in Potterism (even more than it is ), Imagine that there were special places to go and listen to Potter and that respected Adults accross the World read it and discussed it's wonders again and again endlessly. Imagine that Rowling wrote it over a millenia ago and it had absorbed millions of peoples lives.
Imagine that everyone you ever mixed with or met said it was the word of God.

Would you say , Yeah..it's not bad?

No...you would get caught up in it all. You FEEL it in your heart, that feeling that you get is wonderful and surely this is a sign in itself!

The other kicker is that since you were born you have been under no illusion what whould happen if you DIDDNT like this book or feel it's wonder.

There is no point argueing with Logic this point. I certainly agree with all you have said, but it's pointless. The Quran will be miraculous because it is the "word of God", we know it is because it says it is and repeats how authentic it is inside itself, multiple times. Circular logic? Sure. it's religion dude...

 

[ranma1/2]

Re: A question on faith (for atheists)

Salaam/peace;
So , u believe reading Harry P will save us from hell fire ???

H P is a guide line for the whole humanity for this life & hereafter ?

HP can be memorized by millions whose mother tongue is not Eng ? :hmm:
....
verses we all need for this life & the hereafter
..

Nope, of course i dont believe in hell either. However i do see the morals presented in HP to be good in general. Loyalty to friends, the desire to combat evil selfishness. the willingness to stand up and admit was is real and contiue fighting despite how tough it may get. these i find to be good morals over all.

Also the fact that its not presented as a way of life I am able to take my own morals from it without fear of others judging me.

However religous books that are often deemed as guides to life often have racism, the subjugation of women or others, slavery, genocide , wars etc often done in the name of god...
I find what i deem as the oppresion of women in islam "including the quran hadiths." to be horrible. I find the hatred often created in gays to be disgusting. I find the oppresion of music and art horrible and close mineded.

 

[Isambard]

No one has addressed my points...which means no one has read the Divine Comedy and the Qur'an....that makes me really sad...especially how I an atheist, seems to be more well versed in religious literature that your everday theist :S

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Re: A question on faith (for atheists)

Nope, of course i dont believe in hell either. However i do see the morals presented in HP to be good in general. Loyalty to friends, the desire to combat evil selfishness. the willingness to stand up and admit was is real and contiue fighting despite how tough it may get. these i find to be good morals over all.

Well that's a start, but that's hardly a guide for life and all it's aspects.

However religous books that are often deemed as guides to life often have racism,

O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things). (Qur'an 49:13)

the subjugation of women or others,

“For Muslim men and women,- for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in Charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise,- for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward.” (Qur’an 33:35)
“And their Lord hath accepted of them, and answered them: 'Never will I suffer to be lost the work of any of you, be he male or female: Ye are members, one of another: Those who have left their homes, or been driven out therefrom, or suffered harm in My Cause, or fought or been slain,- verily, I will blot out from them their iniquities, and admit them into Gardens with rivers flowing beneath;- A reward from the presence of Allah, and from His presence is the best of rewards.' ” (Qur'an 3:195)

slavery,

It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the prophets; and giveth wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor-due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the Allah-fearing. (Qur'an 2:177)
Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe: A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But Allah beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind: That they may celebrate His praise. (Qur'an 2:221)

genocide

On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. (Qur'an 5:32)

, wars etc often done in the name of god...

And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. (Qur'an 2:191-193)

I find what i deem as the oppresion of women in islam "including the quran hadiths." to be horrible.

Maybe you could direct us to the specific verse? Have you ever heard of Yvonne Riddley?

I find the hatred often created in gays to be disgusting.

The Qur'an does not preach that. It only implies that sodomy is forbidden. You cannot hold the Qur'an responsible for the hatred that simple-minded people keep just because the Qur'an states states that rule.

I find the oppresion of music and art horrible and close mineded.

Well music has more vices then virtues, making the ban of it justified. I would say this is yet another case of "the alcoholic being angry for a prohibition on alcohol".
As for Art, it is only forbidden in two cases. If it's disrespectful like the case of the danish cartoons (if you can even call that art). Or if the object of art is being worshiped. In fact there's many art in the Muslim history just think of calligraphy and architecture.

 

[Isambard]

Abdul, I am curious how you see the ban of music is justified w/o creating a double standard. Perhaps thou, a different thread is needed for that discussion

 

[ranma1/2]

Re: A question on faith (for atheists)

Well that's a start, but that's hardly a guide for life and all it's aspects.

As stated before. Neither is the quran. "it may be a guide but not a good one in my opinion"

... ... ... ...
Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe: A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But Allah beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind: That they may celebrate His praise. (Qur'an 2:221)[/B]

im not sure how most of those quotes relate but this one above seems to show the accpetance of slavery as well as seperatism. "believers are better than non believers"

On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - ..... (Qur'an 5:32)

So what is mischief?

And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

Im getting a little confused here. Kill them everywhere except church. this once again seems to drive the idea of we are better than than them.

But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. (Qur'an 2:191-193)

cease what?

Maybe you could direct us to the specific verse? Have you ever heard of Yvonne Riddley?

The Qur'an does not preach that. It only implies that sodomy is forbidden. You cannot hold the Qur'an responsible for the hatred that simple-minded people keep just because the Qur'an states states that rule.

there is plenty to interpretation and implication. And remember my comment was that many religions create this justification for certain actions.

Well music has more vices then virtues, making the ban of it justified. I would say this is yet another case of "the alcoholic being angry for a prohibition on alcohol".
As for Art, it is only forbidden in two cases. If it's disrespectful like the case of the danish cartoons (if you can even call that art). Or if the object of art is being worshiped. In fact there's many art in the Muslim history just think of calligraphy and architecture.

I disagree as i imagine most non muslims would. Could you list these vices? And whats bad about them.

prohibited substances.
I think the best thing to say is this.
In all things moderation. There is no reason why i cant drink beer, smoke, etc... as long as i dont harm others. "sure it may be better not to but its not a imperative" Also these prohibitted items may often have good uses. "medicianal to name a big one"

And the view on art goes against the idea of free speach that i value. "not to mention i would never worship a god that is so vain as to want to be worshipped."

 

[Basirah]

How would you answer this?

Hal ata AAala al-insani heenunmina alddahri lam yakun shay-an mathkooran

What does this verse have to do with critical thinking? A few verses later you will read: "Ina aatadna lilkaafireenasalasilah waaglalan wasaaeeran", which if you understand arabic is basically another threat against the unbelievers.

Oh yes, if you do not believe god chokes you and chaines you and blazes you with flames!!! Very intimidating. I'm sorry, woodrow, I don't understand what the verse signifies. Please tell me if I complety missed something.

 

[Basirah]

Back when my hearing was intact and I had not reverted I loved classical Music. Yes I have listened to Mozart, Chopin, Schroeder, Schubert, Beethoven, and many others. I did prefer Beethoven and would listen to him for hours. Yes, I viewed Beethoven as a miracle, considering that he never heard any of his music. However, he was also a very gifted mathematician and his works were the result of excellent analytical skills in the field of mathematics. what we perceive as music he perceived as order in mathematical composition.

Wait, are you saying your conversion to Islam stopped you from listening to classical music?

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Re: A question on faith (for atheists)

As stated before. Neither is the quran. "it may be a guide but not a good one in my opinion"

Well then the difference is that the completeness of guidance in the Qur'an is a matter of opinion whereas the incompleteness of guidance of Harry potter is obvious and not even worth debating.

im not sure how most of those quotes relate but this one above seems to show the acceptance of slavery

"and to set slaves free"

as well as separatism. "believers are better than non believers"

First of all, it's obvious that it is better for a muslim to marry another muslim albeit only for practically. Second of all yeah the believer is better then the disbeliever, That is because the believers follow a much stricter morality.
Like the other verse said: Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you.

So what is mischief?

Google has this feature where you can type "define:" and then the word you needed to know and it will show a list of definitions from different sites.

Im getting a little confused here. Kill them everywhere except church. this once again seems to drive the idea of we are better than than them.

Yeah you are obviously confused I can agree to that much. the place mentioned here was mekka. And the polytheists were living there at that time.

cease what?

well what do you think? Cease giving water to your plants and trimming your hedges? Cease fighting of course!

there is plenty to interpretation and implication. And remember my comment was that many religions create this justification for certain actions.

Yes but remember I already refuted that with the stalker analogy.

I disagree as i imagine most non muslims would. Could you list these vices? And whats bad about them.

Made a separate thread for it.

prohibited substances.
I think the best thing to say is this.
In all things moderation. There is no reason why i cant drink beer, smoke, etc... as long as i dont harm others. "sure it may be better not to but its not a imperative" Also these prohibitted items may often have good uses. "medicianal to name a big one"

You're building on the assumption that people are capable of limiting themselves. Or perhaps you would have found it more fair if Allah subhana wa ta'ala said: some of you can and some of you can't? Or perhaps we would have been better guided if Allah subhana wa ta'ala would have said: "figure it out for yourself"? Yeah, I don't think so. and even then I disagree with these small doses being harmless to. The effects might not be that visible but even small doses do have an effect on mentality and morality.

And the view on art goes against the idea of free speach that i value.

did you know that even in the west there are limits to free speech and that if you look at it from a juridical pov that in most western countries slander is an exception to freedom of speech to, and is punishable by law?

"not to mention i would never worship a god that is so vain as to want to be worshipped."

That's like saying I would never consume a beverage that is so liquid it can only be "drunk". And I think what this shows is that the one who is vain is you, not God.

 

[ranma1/2]

Re: A question on faith (for atheists)


Google has this feature where you can type "define:" and then the word you needed to know and it will show a list of definitions from different sites.
I know what mischief is but im not sure what it is ment in this case.
Should we kill children that cause mischief? Adults? Perhaps if you play a prank on your buddy. Should you die? Sounds pretty steep to me.

well what do you think? Cease giving water to your plants and trimming your hedges? Cease fighting of course!

It seems to me that it is referring to fighting, and not being muslim.
“Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah;”

You're building on the assumption that people are capable of limiting themselves.

We are. I can assume it because I can and others can.

did you know that even in the west there are limits to free speech and that if you look at it from a juridical pov that in most western countries slander is an exception to freedom of speech to, and is punishable by law?

Yes and in general the limits have to do with safety “no yelling fire in a theater” And lying. Giving your opinion and expressing yourself is not limmited


That's like saying I would never consume a beverage that is so liquid it can only be "drunk". And I think what this shows is that the one who is vain is you, not God.

No its not. Lets say a god did exists and it made is self known but did not demand being worshiped, that one might be worthy of it.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Re: A question on faith (for atheists)

I know what mischief is but im not sure what it is ment in this case.Should we kill children that cause mischief? Adults? Perhaps if you play a prank on your buddy. Should you die? Sounds pretty steep to me.

Yeah, we all know thousands of childrens are killed each year for their use of slingshots. Real tragedy ...

It seems to me that it is referring to fighting, and not being muslim.
“Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah;”

I geuss that you are the one guilty of adding extra interpretation then.

We are. I can assume it because I can and others can.

Yet I've seen thousands of people fail. With repugnant results might I add. In fact I would even say that the large majority of people do not seem to be able to control it as desirable. But I geuss this is just like the case of the non-existing bad male drivers. You'll never hear a guy say he's a bad driver. Yet when you're on the road...

Yes and in general the limits have to do with safety “no yelling fire in a theater” And lying. Giving your opinion and expressing yourself is not limmited

No, you can be punished for slander even if what you say is true and does not compromise safety.

No its not. Lets say a god did exists and it made is self known but did not demand being worshiped, that one might be worthy of it.

If God exists, that alone makes him worthy by definition. Any objectives you add to that have nothing to do with God's features but with your vanity. You are to vain to worship. Instead you would give it compulsory when you see fit. If he exists, well geuss what, he made you, he owns you, he feeds you gives you air holds the universe together, gave you intelligence and emotions. And then you're telling me it's vain if he tests us to separate the good from the evil by putting those who are unwilling to worship him in hell and those who are willing in heaven. Well like I said, that is more an indication of who you are then it is an indication of who God is.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Re: A question on faith (for atheists)

Salaam/peace;

However i do see the morals presented in HP to be good in general. .

I did not read H P. Here is few lines from an article.

Harry Potter: Facts about Fiction

By Khalid Baig



The fight between good and evil in this book is actually a conflict between "good magic" and "evil magic", both of which are evil.



The books are in effect promoters of paganism.



They glorify magic and paganism while non-magical people, called Muggles, are despised and portrayedas boring, narrow-minded, and paranoid of magic.



Not surprisingly, the main characters in the story have few noble qualities; they lie with impunity, use profanity, don't respect their elders, break rules regularly, and are unrepentant.


And for all these qualities and more, the books are popular and are having an effect. It is the "in" thing to purchase the book.


And not just the book. Children have gone crazy over Harry Potter memorabilia, surrounding themselves with Harry Potter T-shirts, posters, toys, costumes, wands, hats, etc. The media has been glorifying the book that glorifies sorcery.



For More Information on Islam please visit http://www.muslimconverts.com

However religous books that are often deemed as guides to life often have racism

,


Quran does not teach us racism . God says in Quran that ( not the exact words ) ..... best among u who fears God most.


.......does not matter if s/he is black , white , rich or poor , Japanese Or Indian or American.

the subjugation of women or others, slavery, genocide , wars etc often done in the name of god...

ya ...in the name of god people did / do many evil things . So , put blame on those people ...why bash religion ? Islam teaches us to be good , not the opposite.

I find what i deem as the oppresion of women in islam "including the quran hadiths." to be horrible.

lol .....funny

women are embracing Islam more than men...why is that ? why not ask our revert sisters ? Many of them are active in dawah online. U will find some revert sisters in this forum also.

In another thread , a non-Muslim sis was complining against women's right ....later boooommmmm .....she became our sis in Islam

...Alhamdulillah.


a related link

Number of Jewish Women Embracing Islam to Double in 2006 visit

base URL: http://www.israelnationalnews.com


posted by toronto 398 days ago




With all the islamophobia (especially instigated by Jews around the world), you would think that Jewish people aren't learning about Islam?

Think again!



http://www.muslimshout.com/story.php?title=Number-Jewish-Women-Embracing-Islam-to-Double-in-2006

PS. i can't see video online. If possible , anybody pl. let me know if the link is working properly . Thanks in advance

I find the hatred often created in gays to be disgusting.

it's pathetic that some/many people show sympathy to the sinners. Thus creating injustice , unrest in the society.


If anybody goes against nature / God's commands , s/he should be punished if does not repent .....it's not the hatred ....it's for the sake of establishing peace in the society.



And why worry about gays ??? What's their problems ??

They are enjoyng gay parade , they have thier legal marriage , they have their own churches even in a Muslim majority country like Malaysia ...so , what more do u want for them ?????

Save some sympathy for their eternal punishment . Yes , i know u don't believe in hereafter ...but what if really it's true ????

So , save some tears for them....they will need that badly on the last day.

I find the oppresion of music and art horrible and close mineded

we have many threads on it...pl. visit those .

 

[Uthman]

Sister, Muggles are not despised. :embarrass

And the main characters aren't perfect but they do have quite a few noble qualities. :embarrass

Especially Dumbledore. I wish he didn't die. He is my Sheikh. :laugh:

Ok, carry on now. :embarrass

 

[ranma1/2]

Sister, Muggles are not despised. :embarrass

And the main characters aren't perfect but they do have quite a few noble qualities. :embarrass

Especially Dumbledore. I wish he didn't die. He is my Sheikh. :laugh:

Ok, carry on now. :embarrass

He died.. Nooo you ruined it for me. I hope your happy..."just kidding"

 

[Basirah]

With all the islamophobia (especially instigated by Jews around the world), you would think that Jewish people aren't learning about Islam?

You realize that the number doubled from something like 16 to 32. More Muslims in the Palestinian territories are leaving Islam and becoming enlightened faster than the amount of Jews. But either way, if Israel becomes less oppresive because of it, then fine, but they are at least an enlightened society in the sciences.

 

[Basirah]

ya ...in the name of god people did / do many evil things . So , put blame on those people ...why bash religion ? Islam teaches us to be good , not the opposite.

What is good? We may have different views of good I am afraid. I believe the entire "ummah" cannot agree on what is actually good either. Osama Bin Laden believes that 4,000 dead in New York City is "good", Muslims in Michigan believes freedom is "good".

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

. More Muslims in the Palestinian territories are leaving Islam

Really ????

Palestines are suffered since decades for their Muslim identity. If they leave Islam & become Jews , then they will be surely benifitted in this world.

Still , i don't know how many Muslims in Palesntian left Islam. Can u give me the link for ur claim ?

In the west , if Chrisitians become Muslims ...they become minority & come under harrassment . Still they are accepting Islam . It's not easy to be a Muslim in the west ...but even anti-Muslim media are reporting that so many western men & women accepted Islam.


U can't compare this with few people leaving Islam in a country where Muslims are poor & oppressed.