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I shall respond to your concerns.
1. References to “it”.
You stated:
Imam, since there were only two possibilities for “it”, I listed both. You are free to choose the option that you wish.
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your response showed obviously how greatly you still confused with such Quranic issue,but no wonder as you never studied the Quranic language .
Grenville, there we go again !!!
What linguestic factor you based your (two possibilities for “it”, )on?
It would be interesting to show me any Arabic grammatical reference,Quranic interpretation...argues that “it” has two possiblities.not that (It) may means (He)....
a primary school Arabic student knows the simplicity of your error,in such simple gramatical role !!!
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2. The Context
You stated:
Very good Imam. This is the type of response where we can all learn something.
Let us examine the sentence in its entirety.
4:157, 158 - That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
You quoted “… but only conjecture to follow”, but let us quote the remainder, “for of a surety they killed him not”. Therefore any one who believes that the Jews killed the Messiah are full of doubts - for clearly it was the Romans who killed Jesus.
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You know what have you done?
You Never cared for the Quranic context,all what you did is a try to read the verse with a Biblical context,which is not Quranic...
what a distortion you made to the context !!!
you adviced me to read the context well,but did you do your advice?
I will analyse the context,and let the reader judge which one of us respect the context:
4:157, 158 - That they(the Jews) said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it(the issue of crucifiction) was made to appear to them so, and those(including any group Jews,Romans etc) who differ(some believed the hearsay of the crucifiction, others denied it) therein about it(The crucifiction) are full of doubts(whether the crucifiction occured or not), with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
nothing in the verse ,even remotely denotes that any one who believes that the Jews killed the Messiah are full of doubts
for clearly it was the Romans who killed Jesus.
My friend any NT claim ,while discussing a Quranic text is wholly without merit..
from now and on avoid any NT quotation while discussing the Quran with me.....or I will consider you as those who debated me before about Quranic issues and after they failed to prove it, they seek the help of the Bible.....
we are debating
oes the Quran say that the Roman crucified Jesus?
If in a future time you decided to debate: Does the NT say that the Roman crucified Jesus?
you should put in your mind well the following words of Paul:
1 Thessalonians 2 :14 For, brethren, ye be made followers of the churches of God, that be in Judaea, in Christ Jesus, for ye have suffered the same things of your even-lineages, as and they of the Jews. 15 Which slew both the Lord Jesus and the prophets.
from now and on,anytime I will see NT stuff in your posts or any other material outside the Quran,I will never respond to your posts.
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4. Effectiveness
You wrote”
You are correct. It would have been more effective to simply state that the Romans killed Jesus. However, look at the context of verse.
From 4:153 to 4:157, the Israelites’ unfaithfulness to God in the past is presented. Then the Qu’ran accuses the Jews of continuing this behaviour during the time of Mohammed.
So the context is providing a list of offences, namely that they:
- rejected Faith;
- uttered against Mary a grave false charge;
- said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";
- hindered many from Allah's Way;
- took usury, though they were forbidden; and
- devoured men's substance wrongfully;
In each instance, they are accused of doing something wrong. Therefore emphasising that the Jews were not in possession of the facts is consistent with the context.
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well done .......
according to your apeculation, If the Quran tells that the Jews claimed falsly that they killed Jesus means the Quran affirms that the Romans did it !!!
if so then the burden is on your shoulder to quote a quranic verse supports such wild speculation...and remember my advice (Never ever use external sources) in order to keep the discussion Quranic , and to avoid my ignore to your posts....
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5. Another Verse Denying the Crucifixion
You provided 5:110. Let us examine this verse in context.
5:109-110 - One day will Allah gather the messengers together, and ask: "What was the response ye received (from men to your teaching)?" They will say: "We have no knowledge: it is Thou Who knowest in full all that is hidden." Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'
Now the instructive part of this verse relevant to our discussion is: “And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'”
When did God restrain the Children of Israel? “I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs”
What were the clear signs? “and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave.”
What was the Jews’ response? “and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'”
Therefore, the context for this verse is when Jesus was healing others during His ministry, not when he was being crucified. Therefore this verse does not support the claim that Jesus was not crucified.
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Sadly,your argument here shows the nagative effects on the person who read others' posts with a hurry ....
what I wrote leaves no room to such assertions:
I showed before that the context for this verse is not only when Jesus was healing others during His ministry,the verse highlights the basic lines in the whole life of Jesus:
1-his childhood
Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood
2-His receive to the prophethood and wisdom
Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel
2-his miracles
behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave.
3-his last days
And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from violence to thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.
in other words:
1-Jesus performed miracles.
2-then The Jews thought he is a magician,and false prophet.
3-they tried to do (harm,violence)to him.
as long as we have no Qualifiers/Modifiers to the word (violence,harm) then it has to include any kind of harm (several attmepts to kill him,or their urge to the Romans to kill him),and ANY TIME....(.beginning from the first time he performed miracles till his last minute on his earthly mission.)
till you provide from the same verse any Qualifiers/Modifiers to the word (violence,harm), your claim that it is a limited harm holds no merit.
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6. Last Nail
You wrote:[the last nail I put in the coffin of your argument is that: If God allowed the Jews to bring Jesus to the Romans to kill him,What kind of bless he will remind him day of Judgment?[/quote]
Your error here is that you are linking verse 4:157 to verse 5:110 when they are both speaking of different events. Verse 4:157 addresses Jesus’ crucifixion at the end of His earthly ministry, while verse 5:110 addresses Jesus’ miracles during His earthly ministry.
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lol
anyone reads my Question will find out easily that I'm not linking verse 4:157 to verse 5:110 ,I asked a simple Question:
If God allowed the Jews to bring Jesus to the Romans to kill him,What kind of bless he will remind him day of Judgment?
(And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs)
this specific verse shoots your whole argument in the foot....
If God will remind him of a bless it would be nothing less than all the way protections from the Jews and logicaly others as well....
under such ridiculous scenario too ,God protected him from the Jews letting them bring him to the Romans to crucify him and deform his corpse afterwards Allah raised him up unto Himself,and day of judgment he will remind him of such bless on him !!!!:giggling:
(of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself)
Grenville ,
Sadly you has embarked upon a journey into the realm of fantasy in which people search for the nonexistent. Nothing is so biased as someone whose heart precedes his head, whose desire precedes his discretion, whose wish precedes his wisdom.
