Why so stress out?

[Trumble]

The same applies to Evolution. Now evolution, scientifically speaking, is “[t]he gradual process by which the present diversity of plant and animal life arose from the earliest and most primary organisms…” (Concise Science Dictionary) But the Evolution of the atheists is not this process; rather it is the agent which brings about the process. Only in this unscientific and imaginary sense can evolution take the place of God; otherwise, a believer who accepts the theory of evolution can easily reconcile it with his belief in God, by saying that that process is itself the work of the Creator.

Not this ridiculous strawman again...?! The 'evolution of the atheists' is exactly the same as the evolution of everybody else. Atheists do not deny that the theory of evolution could be reconciled with a belief in God (although a great many theists do!), although they would deny that it requires God. No scientific theory requires belief in God.

As a former atheist i would say that atheism is a childish phase of man's life. When you grow up and get know the world, you start to believe in God.

Oddly enough, for this former theist, 'growing up' and getting to know the world had precisely the opposite effect - at least as far as the Judeo/Christian/Islamic conception of God is concerned. Many atheists, of course, would consider that it is belief in God or gods that is 'childish'. The use of such terms in relation to other's beliefs is both arrogant and unhelpful.

 

[Isambard]

First I will tell you something that we know from Quran and Hadith:

1- For every nation on earth God send to us messengers and Prophets, and they are about 124 000 Messanger and Prophet!

2- The Prophets that we know by name and mentioned their stories in Quran and we agree with Christians and Jews except Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) whom they reject are 25 Prophet and Messenger!

From those stories we know what Humans did from History (FACTS) with their faith, they simply added sharers and Pagan believes to the TRUTH that were revealed for them, even Miracles that they saw were not enough for them!

What facts are you referrring to? Just because the Qur'an says so doesnt make it fact. If anything, its the reverse. The Jews ripped off the Sumerians with Gensis and Cain and Abel as well as the Flood.

The Qur'an is similarily strikingly similar to gnostic theology and texts, granted an expanded and detailed version.

Dont feel safe christians! The Bible is a hodgepodge of a grabbag of pagan believes, hell even Christ myth isnt original in any way
So Kali, Varuna, Thor, Demiurge, Sheogorath were invented by humans after they were send message that there is Creator!

See faith came to us step by step (evolution in faith) for example if you read the bible Prophet Jesus (pbuh) said to his disciples that there is a lot to be said but the comforter when he comes will say it, and told them this because they are NOT READY to BEAR what he will say!

Im assuming you got this from Deedat. Old Deedat had a nasty habit of quote mining. if he had read the entire thing and used the context of John, he wouldve seen it meant (quite obviously) the Holy Spirit would be the Comforter. So unless Muhammed was an entirely spiritual being, he fails at meeting the criteria

Also we can read some Prophets all what they asked their people to do to worship God and enter paradise is To believe in God and dont kill specific Cow or camel, they didn’t have to go to Mosque or Pray five times or anything like Christians or Jews do, NOTHING, because their Creator knew their capabilities!

Unfortunately and Ironically and Amazingly till today there is people who cannot BEAR and realize TRUTH!

May Allah (swt) open our heart and mind!

Peace

You may want to read up on ancient religions and history. Histrography is also key and may hlp you get a more rounded view of the evolution of religions and myths.:coolious:

 

[Isambard]

Ditto,

The funny thing is, they wish to use science for their belief. It is scientific to believe in God - because science tells us the universe is not an independant deity. They would rather believe somthing exists that they don't know - but they will deny God. Do they not know, that thing that exists that they don't know (that which "scientists" can't explain yet but is trying to) - is what we know as God????

Atheism seems to be rather anti-religion than Anti-God. Because God is misunderstood by atheists.

Atheism predates science. The inherent contradictions in belief in deities (especially tru of monotheistic deities) is reason enough to abandon faith.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?” "

Epicurus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicurus#Teachings

 

[Md Mashud]

Is God willing to prevent evil but not able to? Because God does not stop evil does not mean he doesn't exist. Since when did the existance of God mean that evil must not exist? This arguement is similar to one which I heard that why is the human body flawed, surely God is perfect and won't make flawed creatures. This is again making the assumption that God must make humans perfect. Infact, making him having to make humans perfect would indeed limit him.

 

[tarek29]

You may want to read up on ancient religions and history. Histrography is also key and may hlp you get a more rounded view of the evolution of religions and myths.:coolious:

Originally Posted by tarek29
First I will tell you something that we know from Quran and Hadith:

1- For every nation on earth God send to us messengers and Prophets, and they are about 124 000 Messanger and Prophet!

2- The Prophets that we know by name and mentioned their stories in Quran and we agree with Christians and Jews except Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) whom they reject are 25 Prophet and Messenger!

From those stories we know what Humans did from History (FACTS) with their faith, they simply added sharers and Pagan believes to the TRUTH that were revealed for them, even Miracles that they saw were not enough for them

!

What facts are you referrring to? Just because the Qur'an says so doesnt make it fact. If anything, its the reverse. The Jews ripped off the Sumerians with Gensis and Cain and Abel as well as the Flood.

The Qur'an is similarily strikingly similar to gnostic theology and texts, granted an expanded and detailed version.

Dont feel safe christians! The Bible is a hodgepodge of a grabbag of pagan believes, hell even Christ myth isnt original in any way

If you think carefully about what I wrote, you will understand what I want to say, first I said that all Prophets and Messengers that we know are 25 and we agree about them with Christians and Jews, and there is Prophets that we know them by History and not only religion scriptures!

The Quran is different then other scriptures and obviously you don’t understand or even read the Quran, it is very different then other scriptures!

So Kali, Varuna, Thor, Demiurge, Sheogorath were invented by humans after they were send message that there is Creator!

See faith came to us step by step (evolution in faith) for example if you read the bible Prophet Jesus (pbuh) said to his disciples that there is a lot to be said but the comforter when he comes will say it, and told them this because they are NOT READY to BEAR what he will say!

Im assuming you got this from Deedat. Old Deedat had a nasty habit of quote mining. if he had read the entire thing and used the context of John, he wouldve seen it meant (quite obviously) the Holy Spirit would be the Comforter. So unless Muhammed was an entirely spiritual being, he fails at meeting the criteria
You now confuse me, are you are Christian or atheist or disappointed in Christianity athiest!? In the beginning you talked against the bible and now you use it!?

The comforter is not the Holy spirit if you put John in context or without, and we didn’t see anyone who could directly answer Sheikh Ahmed Deedat (may Allah (swt) rest him in peace) and this in debates he made with Pastors and Priests!

Christians say Jesus came as a man in flesh so that we can see, touch etc... him, then you want to tell me he will come as holy spirit!? (feel the contradiction)

and The Holy spirit will say the words that will be put in its mouth!?

And how does look the mouth of the holy spirit!?

etc..... if you want after Ramadan we can discuss all those things, all is needed is some Logic, with little reason to realise the Truth!

May Allah (swt) guide us all!

Peace

 

[Isambard]

Is God willing to prevent evil but not able to? Because God does not stop evil does not mean he doesn't exist. Since when did the existance of God mean that evil must not exist? This arguement is similar to one which I heard that why is the human body flawed, surely God is perfect and won't make flawed creatures. This is again making the assumption that God must make humans perfect. Infact, making him having to make humans perfect would indeed limit him.

So God is both lazy and malovolent then?

 

[Md Mashud]

So God is both lazy and malovolent then?

Why so? This is treating God as human if anything, limiting him to certain systems. I read that and I don't find it to be really realistic when talking about God in context. Can you explain why god should create humans in a perfect manner and stop the evil on Earth? Does he not know what he is doing? Are you denying his capability of the master plan? Does he not have infinite powers to account all things at the end? If humanlife was a test and he denied evil - is he not denying freewill itself? If he did how could one be accounted?

 

[ranma1/2]

Hii Ranma1/2, ..... and hii all...

God is not an atheists nor he is an agnostic...

There is no God save Him, the Alive, the Eternal. Neither slumber nor sleep overtaketh Him. Unto him belongeth whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth. Who is he that intercedeth with Him save by His leave? He knoweth that which is in front of them and that which is behind them, while they encompass nothing of His knowledge save what He will. His throne includeth the heavens and the earth, and He is never weary of preserving them. He is the sublime, the tremendous.
Baqara 2:225

lol, God doesnt believe in any gods. So he is an atheists.
He Knows he exists "so its not a belief" so hes not an agnostic "which doesnt know"

 

[Md Mashud]

If I was the only human being in the world, does that mean I don't believe in human beings, seeing as I am one myself? :skeleton:

Accepting existance is already accepting it. This "belief" term is used very ambigiously.

Anyway, this is quite the pointless topic!

 

[Isambard]

Why so? This is treating God as human if anything, limiting him to certain systems. I read that and I don't find it to be really realistic when talking about God in context. Can you explain why god should create humans in a perfect manner and stop the evil on Earth? Does he not know what he is doing? Are you denying his capability of the master plan? Does he not have infinite powers to account all things at the end? If humanlife was a test and he denied evil - is he not denying freewill itself? If he did how could one be accounted?

Read what i quoted again

Via physical imperfection, a human can exist that is both mentally retarded as well as suffer great physical pain.

You could call it a test, but he/she wouldnt have the mental capabilities to understand and thus it would be needless suffering.

Same for someone who is left completely paralyized (sp?). Then now lack the ability to commit sins but can do little else aside from be conscience. (Even more terrifying if they are also blind!).

What master plan would this be?

 

[Md Mashud]

Read what i quoted again

Via physical imperfection, a human can exist that is both mentally retarded as well as suffer great physical pain.

You could call it a test, but he/she wouldnt have the mental capabilities to understand and thus it would be needless suffering.

Same for someone who is left completely paralyized (sp?). Then now lack the ability to commit sins but can do little else aside from be conscience. (Even more terrifying if they are also blind!).

What master plan would this be?

Lets leave religion aside - as you know religion calls that suffering on Earth will be retributed with good in the afterlife.

Now, not everyone believes in religion. So lets talk about God in a more scientific manner. Due to the dependant nature of the World (evident by big bang theory and laws of science), we know an agent was required for this Universe to exist. Some call this agent God, others ofcourse, call it the "unknown" or unexplained. Anyway, the fact is, we can't explain or describe the nature of this agent. Furthermore, its nonexistance is hard to derive from mere morality principles of life, don't you agree? Philosophically, people do believe that how can God exist if evil exists. But, scientifically, is God to be a saint to begin with? Is God given responsibility to stop evil?

You can say, religion says he is the righteous, he is perfect etc - But now we are dwelling in religion. If we dwell in religion, we must take all into context. That is, everything is accounted by the afterlife hence all just/unjust deeds will not go without consequences. The being of them, is the freewill that God gave them, and life is merely a short test.

If you don't agree with afterlife, then thats an opinion - but we can't, take half of the religious teachings and use it to deny the existance of God. You take it all into context, believe it or not thats your choice. But, if you wish to not accept some of the religion (e.g. that their will be afterlife) then why keep the principle that God must be fair hence evil should not exist etc.

As an agnostic/atheist, their is as much logic to believe God can be evil as their is good, as their is no basis for either - only religion derives characteristics of God and in the context they do hold when the whole religion is taken into context.

The philosopher in hand, seems to rather, be against the religious idea - but as far is it should go, is that he denies that religion, but to conclude the nonexistance of God on that basis is somewhat flawed. Similarly, if someone believed Christianity was a false religion, or Islam - its not a basis to believe God does not exist. For, religion only can exist because of God, but God does not have to exist on the dependance of a religion existing/being true.

 

[ranma1/2]

Athiests = polytheists...

Peace

Nope. I guess if you really deform what a god is. "god is what created us. God is the bigbang.

Athiesm is simply the lack of belief is a god or gods.

You can even be religous and not believe in a god.

 

[Md Mashud]

You can even be religous and not believe in a god.

Like atheists?

 

[ranma1/2]

I bet even the Astheist accept the Oneness of god, deep down.

True, and i know the Zeus will forgive me and not hit me with lightning.


Of course everyone realy accepts Zeus deepdown.

 

[ranma1/2]

Alot of people use this, I wonder if they took the time to see how stupid this arguement is. There is a difference, between believing in 0, 1 and 2 gods. A huge difference when you go to 0.

Whether you believe in 1 or more, you believe in an intellectual existance outside of this universe - With 0, you deny it altogether. How can, this difference be merely measured as atheism level? That you are more atheist if you believe in 1 god then 2? Illogical. Atheism is the disbelief of any outside intelect of this Universe - its not a linear progression as you include God(s).


I had to just get that off my chest :skeleton:

lets say there are 1 billion concepts of god.

If your a Atheists you deny 1billion.
If your a muslim You deny 999,999,999 of them
etc... etc..

I would also recommend looking up Strong and Weak atheism.

 

[ranma1/2]

As a former atheist i would say that atheism is a childish phase of man's life. When you grow up and get know the world, you start to believe in God.

I disagree, and i always thought that the belief in invisible imaginary people belonged more to children. I find that many atheists "particularly adults" come ot their conclusion based on available evidence or lack of evidence on the gods part.

 

[tarek29]

True, and i know the Zeus will forgive me and not hit me with lightning.


Of course everyone realy accepts Zeus deepdown.

Zeus is human made becuase they also felt deep inside them that there is creator but their minds couldnt realise the Greatness of Allah (swt) and that he is ONE!

and most probably they also had Prophet or Messenger who were send to them or their grand fathers by Allah (swt) and they made like all other Pagans sharers and names that they invented etc... !

This DEEP feeling is our nature that we are bron with, nature that says that there is Creator and that HE is ONE and beleiving in that this means in one word:

I S L A M

Peace

 

[ranma1/2]

Is God willing to prevent evil but not able to? Because God does not stop evil does not mean he doesn't exist. Since when did the existance of God mean that evil must not exist? This arguement is similar to one which I heard that why is the human body flawed, surely God is perfect and won't make flawed creatures. This is again making the assumption that God must make humans perfect. Infact, making him having to make humans perfect would indeed limit him.

this deals only with the all knowing all good/loving all powerful god.

 

[ranma1/2]

If I was the only human being in the world, does that mean I don't believe in human beings, seeing as I am one myself? :skeleton:

Accepting existance is already accepting it. This "belief" term is used very ambigiously.

Anyway, this is quite the pointless topic!

we are talking about the difference between knowing and believing.

God being ALL KNOWING can not believe. He Knows.

You being the only human in the world may believe you are. But you cant know. Heck You cant know if your actually just a reallly sophisticted AI that is programmed to believe what it does "ala matrix"

 

[ranma1/2]

Like atheists?

Like buddhists, shinto etc.. some forms of wiccan...