100% proof that jesus is NOT god

[Gator]

Keltoi, thank God your here. Hope I din't miss represent your views.

I'm out.

 

[------]

:salamext:

Lol! I wonder why you want to defend Christianity Gator, when you are an atheist?

...despite our faults God does indeed wish for us to achieve salvation through Him, otherwise Christ would not have been sent to us.

Actually, it makes more sense if the people that rape, steal, etc. get their punishment for what they did.

E.g. if a person rapes someone, and declares his faith in Jesus tomorrow, he will be forgiven? He will attain salvation? How is that fair?

 

[------]

:salamext:

You are saying he gave us the tendencies to sin (powerful enough to overcome reason) and then gives us a book telling us to repress these god-given tendencies or we burn in hell.

Nope. I am saying that He gave us Free Will, so that lets us to choose whether to sin and live a life of misery in this world and the hereafter, or happy lives in both.

E.g. You steal, ur gonna have cops after you, and punished in the Hereafter.
You earn ur living, u will have the satisfaction of that and no cops running after you. Get me?

 

[Gator]

Hey AhLÄÄM,
Just like to debate and thought there were some weakness in the course of the discussion.

I do understand what you are saying about freewill, but I don't think you're getting my point.

God is the creator. He creates me. Gives me freewill. Gives me reason. Gives me the need to eat. Gives me the ability to love. Gives me the ability to hate. Gives me the need to procreate. Gives me world I grow up in (beaten and neglected by my parents). Gives me the need to drink alcohol (alcoholic). Gives me the tendency to find other men attactive (just for the record, I'm not gay, not that there's anything wrong with that).

God not only gives us freewill, but the tendencies to SIN. Why?

We are way off topic I think so after your response, that'll be it. Unless you open another thread.

Thanks for the discussion.

 

[Mikayeel]

:salamext:



Not 99 specifically. God can be called by any name in Islam as long as its beautiful and does not form an image in the mind. E.g. All Merciful, All Loving, etc.

Let me give another example here (Zakir Naik's): Some Christians say to describe the trinity that water is still water, whether its water vapour in the gas form, water in the liquid form, or ice in the solid form. The formula remains the same. This is like the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

However, the properties of H20 (Water) remains the same throughout all three processes. It does not 'change' the formula of the water. It remains H20.

If we put this into perspective, we can see that God, Human and 'bird' [excuse my lack of vocabulary] do not have the same properties, functions etc, when they are known to be as one.

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله تعالى وبركاته

loool i was just about to give an example of the zakir naik kay: u beat me with it GRRR nice one

 

[------]

:salamext:

God not only gives us freewill, but the tendencies to SIN. Why?

Do you mean inclinations? Wanting to sin? I understand your point, but I don't agree with it I'm afraid. E.g. A beautiful woman walks past some men in revealing clothes. Those men that have in their consciousness that they will be judged for everything they do, or those who have found more satisfaction [inner peace] with God, would not want to look at her. Other men who just obey their desires and do not care about the hereafter or God, will look.

Yes we are off topic big time. If you want to continue this discussion then kindly drop me a PM. Thanks.

EDIT: truemuslim sis, I am sorry for turning this thread into a debate, but I needed to clear the confusion. Sorry once again.

 

[Souljette]

Back ON TOPIC

Proof that Jesus is not God is found in the bible itself...

Mathew 11:25
"At that time Jesus answered and said, 'I thank Thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent and has revealed them unto babes.'"

Mathew 14:23
"And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray..."

If Jesus is God or part of God then why did he pray? In fact, prayer is always from a submitting, needy and dependent one for the Mercy of Almighty Allah as mentioned in the Qur'an:

"O mankind! it is you who stand in need of Allah but Allah is Rich (Free of all wants and needs), Worthy of all praise" (V.35:15)

mATTHEW 19:16-17-
"And behold, one came and said unto him, 'Good master, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?' And he said unto him, 'Why callest thou me good? (There is) none good but one, (i.e.) God, but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.'"

In the above verses we note this acknowledgement of his submissiveness to God.

Matthew 21:45-46
"And when the chief priests and pharisees had heard his parable, they perceived that he spoke of them. But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude because they took him for a Prophet."

Here it is proved that all those who believed in Jesus during his lifetime did not believe in him being God or the Son of God or one in the doctrine of Trinity; but they believed in him as being a Prophet only.

Correct me if i'm wrong..

 

[Keltoi]

:salamext:

Lol! I wonder why you want to defend Christianity Gator, when you are an atheist?



Actually, it makes more sense if the people that rape, steal, etc. get their punishment for what they did.

E.g. if a person rapes someone, and declares his faith in Jesus tomorrow, he will be forgiven? He will attain salvation? How is that fair?

If that faith is honest and a sinner sincerely gives his or her life to Christ then they are indeed forgiven, it is up to God to judge the sincerity of a person's soul.

 

[Keltoi]

Back ON TOPIC

Proof that Jesus is not God is found in the bible itself...

Mathew 11:25
"At that time Jesus answered and said, 'I thank Thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent and has revealed them unto babes.'"

Mathew 14:23
"And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray..."

If Jesus is God or part of God then why did he pray? In fact, prayer is always from a submitting, needy and dependent one for the Mercy of Almighty Allah as mentioned in the Qur'an:

"O mankind! it is you who stand in need of Allah but Allah is Rich (Free of all wants and needs), Worthy of all praise" (V.35:15)

mATTHEW 19:16-17-
"And behold, one came and said unto him, 'Good master, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?' And he said unto him, 'Why callest thou me good? (There is) none good but one, (i.e.) God, but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.'"

In the above verses we note this acknowledgement of his submissiveness to God.

Matthew 21:45-46
"And when the chief priests and pharisees had heard his parable, they perceived that he spoke of them. But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude because they took him for a Prophet."

Here it is proved that all those who believed in Jesus during his lifetime did not believe in him being God or the Son of God or one in the doctrine of Trinity; but they believed in him as being a Prophet only.

Correct me if i'm wrong..

No, it only proves you cited verses that don't include Christ's claim to divinity.

 

[mohsen1985]

Let me add this to the discussion.

Some prerequisites first.
1. The holy Qur'an is prophet Mohammad's miracle. As we all know he was illiterate and bringing a book like the holy Qur'an is an impossible task for even the most intelligent literate man.

2. As said by the prophets before prophet Mohammad he will be the last prophet, also, as said in the Qur'an and many occasions by prophet Mohammad himself.

3. Based on many historical reasons we know there haven't been any changes made in the holy Qur'an, so it is exactly the Qur'an that was revealed to the prophet. Some historical reasons include the Arab people's love for the it which resulted in them memorising it, writing it, etc... And since it was a holy book they preserved it well. The holy Qur'an was revealed in small pieces, two, three verses and the prophet would memorise those, recite it, and his followers would write it. Also, as Allah says in the Qur'an, he will protect it himself. These are just a couple of the basic reasons, there are many other proofs of the this and the statements before.

Now that we have the basic facts that the holy Qur'an is from Allah, and has not been changed, we take a look at surah Al-Ikhlas:

Tell them Mohammad that Allah is "AHAD". ahad here is a key word, with this interpertation: ahad means the one where it has no second. For example you could have a "first, second, third, etc . . .", however ahad means "the one" which has no second. It's second is also itself which mean it's the one.

Allah is "SAMAD". Samad means something that has no color, no place, no amount, no weight, it's neither here or there, it's everywhere, it cannot be seen, has no shape, time and dimension are not defined for it, etc . . .

He hasn't given birth to anyone, nor was he given birth to. Pretty clear what it means.

He has no equal or partner.

Now, if God himself says he hasn't been born, and hasn't given birth to anyone:

1. Jesus cannot be God > Jesus was born from the virgin Mary. Hint: given birth to < not God!
2. God is not Jesus' father > God hasn't given birth to anyone

 

[جوري]

For Jesus to be 'God' , that would defy the very concept of monotheism.
And what a sorry existence for a 'God', first to come down in form of a 'spirit' to impregnate a young woman with himself, forget about his Godly duties of governing the universe, the orbits, the stars, night and day, the setting of the sun, and everything therein in between, only to go dormant for some 20 years or longer, then one day, he decides, hey everyone I am God worship me. I am a little poor and unkepmpt but I have come to absolve you from your sins, he then gets crucified, dies for three days or so, I am not sure what the deal was with the angel of death who took his soul, to bring him to another God who is also supposed to be him, who knows where the third God the 'holy spirit' was hanging out meanwhile and voila, 'monotheism'-- if you can get someone to believe in santa clause, then you'll get them to believe that too!

And then you have a fellow who states Islam borrows from christianity, lol.. which part did we borrow? the idolatry? the man-god? the confounding and contradictory passages, or the anti-climax itself of God dying for our sins?



christianity is pretty, there is stain glass and candles, but that is as far as it goes as a religion.. the prayers are no more than singing to the ominous sounds of the organ, the holidays are nothing but a commercial endeavor to boost the economy after the dog days of summer...

at this stage, I say worship what you will!
But no amount of reason is going to makeup the deficiencies and frank erroneous beliefs...



peace!

 

[جوري]

Let me add this to the discussion.

Some prerequisites first.
1. The holy Qur'an is prophet Mohammad's miracle. As we all know he was illiterate and bringing a book like the holy Qur'an is an impossible task for even the most intelligent literate man.

2. As said by the prophets before prophet Mohammad he will be the last prophet, also, as said in the Qur'an and many occasions by prophet Mohammad himself.

3. Based on many historical reasons we know there haven't been any changes made in the holy Qur'an, so it is exactly the Qur'an that was revealed to the prophet. Some historical reasons include the Arab people's love for the it which resulted in them memorising it, writing it, etc... And since it was a holy book they preserved it well. The holy Qur'an was revealed in small pieces, two, three verses and the prophet would memorise those, recite it, and his followers would write it. Also, as Allah says in the Qur'an, he will protect it himself. These are just a couple of the basic reasons, there are many other proofs of the this and the statements before.

Now that we have the basic facts that the holy Qur'an is from Allah, and has not been changed, we take a look at surah Al-Ikhlas:

Tell them Mohammad that Allah is "AHAD". ahad here is a key word, with this interpertation: ahad means the one where it has no second. For example you could have a "first, second, third, etc . . .", however ahad means "the one" which has no second. It's second is also itself which mean it's the one.

Allah is "SAMAD". Samad means something that has no color, no place, no amount, no weight, it's neither here or there, it's everywhere, it cannot be seen, has no shape, time and dimension are not defined for it, etc . . .

He hasn't given birth to anyone, nor was he given birth to. Pretty clear what it means.

He has no equal or partner.

Now, if God himself says he hasn't been born, and hasn't given birth to anyone:

1. Jesus cannot be God > Jesus was born from the virgin Mary. Hint: given birth to < not God!
2. God is not Jesus' father > God hasn't given birth to anyone

Great post.. do you ever wonder why Allah SWT has used the term 'Ahad' and not 'Wahid' as an attribute to himseld? essentially both denote 'one'-'singular'.. he used 'Ahad' to denote indivisible!
And that is all the refutation I need as to him taking a 'son'

 

[snakelegs]

Christ didn't come to Earth to "learn how human beings suffered", He came down to be one of them, to redeem mankind in the eyes of God, and to suffer for their transgressions, thereby allowing a path to salvation. The ultimate act of atonement.

one thing i can't understand is why did God find this necessary - the atonement? couldn't he just forgive people if they repented without this sacrifice thing?

 

[mohsen1985]

Everyone is responsible for what they do, why should Jesus suffer for other people's actions?:uuh:

 

[Keltoi]

one thing i can't understand is why did God find this necessary - the atonement? couldn't he just forgive people if they repented without this sacrifice thing?

This goes back to the Old Testament and the sacrificial atonements for sin observed by the Jewish people. Sin must be punished. Going back to the Old Testament...

"In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness." Hebrews 9:22

The blood of bulls and and goats in the days of Moses delayed God's wrath against sin, but it was never enough to remove sin completely.

Jesus was a sacrifice because only His blood could roll backwards to the first sinner and forward to the last.

 

[Keltoi]

Everyone is responsible for what they do, why should Jesus suffer for other people's actions?:uuh:

Simply put, for the sake of forgiveness and reconciliation with God.

 

[mohsen1985]

Prophets are sent to guide us, not to suffer for us. Anyway, I don't know much about Christianity, I proved Jesus is not God nor his son based on my knowledge. How can you defy that?

 

[Keltoi]

Prophets are sent to guide us, not to suffer for us. Anyway, I don't know much about Christianity, I proved Jesus is not God nor his son based on my knowledge. How can you defy that?

Sorry, but you didn't "prove" anything. If you wish to see the verses in the NT in which Christ claims divinity they are spread about everywhere on this forum. Try the comparative religion section.

 

[mohsen1985]

Yeah I did, 8 or 9 posts before this one.

 

[جوري]

How did Jesus' people know him?


"And when he would have put him to death, he feared the multitude, because they counted him as a prophet." - Matthew 14:5 (compare with Matthew 21:26)

"And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee." - Matthew 21:11


"But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet." - Matthew 21:46

"And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:" - Luke 24:19

"The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet." - John 4:19

"Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world." - John 6:14

"Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet." - John 7:40

Indeed, how did Jesus himself describe himself? Let us read:

"Nevertheless I (Jesus) must walk to day, and to morrow, and the [day] following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem." - Luke 13:33

And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.- Matthew 13:57

This is once again confirmed in the noble Qur'an:

"And when Jesus son of Mary said: O Children of Israel! Verily! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was [revealed] before me in the Torah"- The noble Qur'an, Al-Saf(61):6