US admits killing Iraqi civilians

[krypton6]

America can declare a truce, Bin Laden can too but I really doubt that he will and I hope that he wont, because at least he is fighting for the better.

 

[krypton6]

He did more harm to the middle east than what he did any good for and because of that I dont like him too much, I just want what he want which is a free middle east.

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

He did more harm to the middle east than what he did any good for and because of that I dont like him too much, I just want what he want which is a free middle east.

And that's exactly what I meant when I said his complaint was poorly presented. Please, DEFINE what you mean by a free Middle East?

I understand the concept as it's applied to "after" the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, but I'm still not 100% on the concept BEFORE all this 911 crap happened, except that the issue stems from the state that has been called Israel.

I can deal with that state, but I have no idea how Muslims define a "free Middle East" or what they expect for a satisfactory out-come because Muslims don't seem to agree on what the out-come itself should look like.

You just have no idea how frustrating it is, when viewing all the histories, to be looking in from the outside! Some Muslims like America and want us there, like Saudi Arabia. Others hate us there and hate our influence, even though we never hated or feared the Muslim influence. If we do something to please one Muslim country, we wind up pissing off another so we're always confused - or at least we appear to be.

For me, personally, this is a major challenge because I hear every dispute. No Muslim scholar has a problem complaining to me because I'm willing to hear them out. The problem? They'll all talk to me - but they won't talk to each other!

So... what if Israel disappeared? Would that please the Middle East? No. Why? Because the scholars have differences of opinion on what a free Middle East would look like - they're not all on the same page and they don't even trust each other enough to Assemble under one roof and work it all out. It's all very confused!

For instance, Osama recently published the following statement:

I contest this unjust statement and remind you all that the morality and culture of the Holocaust belongs to YOUR culture (Western), not OUR culture. In fact, burning living beings is forbidden in our religion… even if they are as small as an ant, so what of man? The holocaust had been carried out in the middle of Europe! Had this happened closer to our countries, most of them would have been saved, by taking refuge with us. My proof for this accusation is found in your history, when the Spanish set up the horrible courts of the Inquisition to try both Muslims and Jews. The Jews only found safe shelter by taking refuge in our countries and that is why the Jewish community in Morocco is one of the largest communities in the world today. They are alive – with us – and we have not incinerated them… nor shall we ever incinerate them! Also, your Christian brothers have lived among us for 14 centuries! In Egypt alone there are millions of Christians and we have not and shall not ever incinerate them!

Now, what am I to make of this? Incineration is what happens when you fire a missile into a building. Incineration happens when you set off a powerful bomb in a marketplace. So what is he trying to say here? Was he trying to state that, should the U.S. withdraw it's defense of Israel, there would be no slaughter of the Israeli people? It sounds that way. It also seemed that he did not object to a small Jewish community there, similar to the ones in Egypt and Morocco. The problem? Osama does not speak for ALL Muslims.

So, the definition of "free Middle East" is impossible for anyone to understand, Muslims included, since some do and some don't agree with Osama. Some do and don't agree with Hezbollah. Some do and some don't agree with... you see where this goes?

The Jews have the same problem. There is a serious dispute concerning whether that state violates Jewish holy law. I say it does, but there are others who say it doesn't. I accuse them of picking and choosing between the laws to suit their purpose: They say they don't have to obey the laws of the international court because they are only required to obey holy law. On the other hand, the presence of that state is a violation of holy law.

As much as I'd love to see the end of the matter, I somehow feel it will never happen because the complaints just go around in circles like this!

The Ninth Scribe

 

[Cognescenti]

Attributed to OBl by Ninth:

I contest this unjust statement and remind you all that the morality and culture of the Holocaust belongs to YOUR culture (Western), not OUR culture. In fact, burning living beings is forbidden in our religion… even if they are as small as an ant, so what of man? The holocaust had been carried out in the middle of Europe! Had this happened closer to our countries, most of them would have been saved, by taking refuge with us. My proof for this accusation is found in your history, when the Spanish set up the horrible courts of the Inquisition to try both Muslims and Jews. The Jews only found safe shelter by taking refuge in our countries and that is why the Jewish community in Morocco is one of the largest communities in the world today. They are alive – with us – and we have not incinerated them… nor shall we ever incinerate them! Also, your Christian brothers have lived among us for 14 centuries! In Egypt alone there are millions of Christians and we have not and shall not ever incinerate them!

What a guy, eh?! Fortunately, so as not to upset his lame rationalizations and excuses for the purposeful murder of thousands of innocents, most of those being incinerated in the WTC chose to jump to their deaths.

Are none of the Muslims here at least slightly embarrased by the OBL supporter among you?

Of course, this post will likely be erased as are about 90% of my posts reagrding good ole OBL

 

[wilberhum]

Attributed to OBl by Ninth:



What a guy, eh?! Fortunately, so as not to upset his lame rationalizations and excuses for the purposeful murder of thousands of innocents, most of those being incinerated in the WTC chose to jump to their deaths.

Are none of the Muslims here at least slightly embarrased by the OBL supporter among you?

Of course, this post will likely be erased as are about 90% of my posts reagrding good ole OBL

I just had a post deleted because it is unnecessary to respond to OBL supporters.

If Muslims don't condemn OBL, Why should we assume he does not represent them? :-\

 

[Roasted Cashew]

If Muslims don't condemn OBL, Why should we assume he does not represent them? :-\

Because you have a brain and not stupid. Is it too much to ask? Of course Osama has supporters amongst us. If he didn't would there be Al-Qaeda??? Do you have common sense? Just because one of us supports him you feel right to discard all the others(majority) who don't. Wow, this is so helpful. Let these stupid Osama supporters rot and die. Though I agree that people who respond to OBL supporters should not have their posts deleted. UNLESS one of our moderator is also an OBL supporter. Now that would be revelation!

 

[wilberhum]

Because you have a brain and not stupid. Is it too much to ask? Of course Osama has supporters amongst us. If he didn't would there be Al-Qaeda??? Do you have common sense? Just because one of us supports him you feel right to discard all the others(majority) who don't. Wow, this is so helpful. Let these stupid Osama supporters rot and die. Though I agree that people who respond to OBL supporters should not have their posts deleted. UNLESS one of our moderator is also an OBL supporter. Now that would be revelation!

You think I have a brain and I'm not stupid. You have made my day.

But do remember that a few do not represent the majority and the majority does not represent all when you address other topics.

Fake picture. Burt and OBL are not friends.

 

[Cabdullahi]

I just had a post deleted because it is unnecessary to respond to OBL supporters.

If Muslims don't condemn OBL, Why should we assume he does not represent them? :-\

Time and time again we are being told that there is this man hiding in the caves that we cannot find with all the satellite and gps technology america has. im starting to believe that there isnt even an OBL the intelligence of you and i is being insulted how could i believe that a man in a cave with probably just some water and rifle mastermind 9/11 WITHOUT some help by america itself lol

 

[wilberhum]

Time and time again we are being told that there is this man hiding in the caves that we cannot find with all the satellite and gps technology america has. im starting to believe that there isnt even an OBL the intelligence of you and i is being insulted how could i believe that a man in a cave with probably just some water and rifle mastermind 9/11 WITHOUT some help by america itself lol

You have made it obvious that you have no ability to intelligently look at anything.

Some day you will find out that ignorance is not bliss.

 

[Cabdullahi]

You have made it obvious that you have no ability to intelligently look at anything.

Some day you will find out that ignorance is not bliss.

OK MY man wilberhum i dont know what ur saying about intelligently looking at things but it seems at ur age u cant look either, america captured saddam hussein in his own backyard it didnt take them long to do so, why because when it matters about oil and the countries resources everything seems to be done with ease if they want to end terrorist movement why dont they kill the shepherd and the sheep will flee but who wants to go after a man thats alone in a place where there is probably no oil.

Listen sir!! plz explain to me this because why did america make business with saddam hussein selling him weapon only to seize him 10-15 years later and what about the four non arabs cheering and screaming loud with joy in newyork bridge just after moments of the twin towers collapsing and why it disapeared from the media.
thank you sir

 

[wilberhum]

OK MY man wilberhum i dont know what ur saying about intelligently looking at things but it seems at ur age u cant look either, america captured saddam hussein in his own backyard it didnt take them long to do so, why because when it matters about oil and the countries resources everything seems to be done with ease if they want to end terrorist movement why dont they kill the shepherd and the sheep will flee but who wants to go after a man thats alone in a place where there is probably no oil.

Listen sir!! plz explain to me this because why did america make business with saddam hussein selling him weapon only to seize him 10-15 years later and what about the four non arabs cheering and screaming loud with joy in newyork bridge just after moments of the twin towers collapsing and why it disapeared from the media.
thank you sir

In stead of some long dribble about assorted junk, why don't you point out where I have been so stupid that I have denied reality.

It is not my function in life to debunk conspiracy theories that have been debunked a thousand times.

 

[Roasted Cashew]

You have made it obvious that you have no ability to intelligently look at anything.

Some day you will find out that ignorance is not bliss.

Wilberhum, it should be clear to you by now that most Al-Qaeda and Taliban symphatizers are usually those who believe in conspiracy theories. Those who believe that "mossad" might be behind it and those who therefore assume that OBL is a victim of "............". My vocab is not that good.

 

[Cabdullahi]

In stead of some long dribble about assorted junk, why don't you point out where I have been so stupid that I have denied reality.

It is not my function in life to debunk conspiracy theories that have been debunked a thousand times.

It looks like i need to give you a history lesson America is the biggest terrorist country they might not be practising theyr terrorism as much as they used to do centuries ago,

the massacre of innocent indians by YOUR forefathers you came u saw u conqered while making a genocide raping women and the mistreatment of children simply because the whites thought they were superior and the indians are dirty,the europeans came with guns and cannons similar to what so called muslim terrorists would use but just alil outdated

And what about the enslavement of africans who were oppressed for four centuries thats 400 years not 10 not 20 but 400,i dont want to be disrespectful but considering your age ur grandad probably owned a slave and probably and most definetly cause trauma to him

americans have a dark history that will always overshadow them, these terrorist attacks that were carried out for centuries are horrendous

America started terrorism and will always live and experience terror
it looks like the chicken is coming home to roost

thank you wilberhum im out!!!!!!

 

[AhlaamBella]

It looks like i need to give you a history lesson America is the biggest terrorist country they might not be practising theyr terrorism as much as they used to do centuries ago,

the massacre of innocent indians by YOUR forefathers you came u saw u conqered while making a genocide raping women and the mistreatment of children simply because the whites thought they were superior and the indians are dirty,the europeans came with guns and cannons similar to what so called muslim terrorists would use but just alil outdated

And what about the enslavement of africans who were oppressed for four centuries thats 400 years not 10 not 20 but 400,i dont want to be disrespectful but considering your age ur grandad probably owned a slave and probably and most definetly cause trauma to him

americans have a dark history that will always overshadow them, these terrorist attacks that were carried out for centuries are horrendous

America started terrorism and will always live and experience terror
it looks like the chicken is coming home to roost

thank you wilderhum im out!!!!!!

*slowly* Breathe, brother breathe

Some good points there though :thumbs_up

 

[Keltoi]

It looks like i need to give you a history lesson America is the biggest terrorist country they might not be practising theyr terrorism as much as they used to do centuries ago,

the massacre of innocent indians by YOUR forefathers you came u saw u conqered while making a genocide raping women and the mistreatment of children simply because the whites thought they were superior and the indians are dirty,the europeans came with guns and cannons similar to what so called muslim terrorists would use but just alil outdated

And what about the enslavement of africans who were oppressed for four centuries thats 400 years not 10 not 20 but 400,i dont want to be disrespectful but considering your age ur grandad probably owned a slave and probably and most definetly cause trauma to him

americans have a dark history that will always overshadow them, these terrorist attacks that were carried out for centuries are horrendous

America started terrorism and will always live and experience terror
it looks like the chicken is coming home to roost

thank you wilderhum im out!!!!!!

How do you know who Wilberhum's forefather's are? In any event, that was a nice rambling post full of self-righteous indignation, but hardly a "history lesson". In case you failed to notice in your study of history, Muslims were just as much if not more involved in the African slave trade as anyone else...and for a much longer period of time I might add.

As for America "starting terrorism"....well that is so proposterous I don't think it really deserves a reply.

 

[Cabdullahi]

How do you know who Wilberhum's forefather's are? In any event, that was a nice rambling post full of self-righteous indignation, but hardly a "history lesson". In case you failed to notice in your study of history, Muslims were just as much if not more involved in the African slave trade as anyone else...and for a much longer period of time I might add.

As for America "starting terrorism"....well that is so proposterous I don't think it really deserves a reply.

No! you are making a mistake it was the arabs who where involved in the slave trade THE muslims were involved but gave them first class treatment compared to the evil europeans and americans

"Your servants and your slaves are your brothers. Anyone who has slaves should give them from what he eats and wears. He should not charge them with work beyond their capabilities. If you must set them to hard work, in any case, I advise you to help them."

Islam forbade the traditional practice of enslaving free individuals by capturing them and selling them into slavery. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said:

"There are three categories of people against whom I myself shall be a plaintiff on the Day of Judgment. Of those three, one is he who enslaves free men, then sells him and eats this money…"
this is what sister fatima posted that was in another thread that u probrably and arrogantly ignored because it conflicts with what you think about muslims that u think they are a bunch of fanatics


Listen brother the real truth is evident its a shame that is hard for u to grasp it.Its seems that you would use any sort of irrational excuse to get your point across this is pure demagogy,i told u simple and plain that americans an europeans if u look at the history that they are the fathers of terrorism but as a typical demagog u will say but the muslims did it too

Thank you

 

[Keltoi]

No! you are making a mistake it was the arabs who where involved in the slave trade THE muslims were involved but gave them first class treatment compared to the evil europeans and americans

"Your servants and your slaves are your brothers. Anyone who has slaves should give them from what he eats and wears. He should not charge them with work beyond their capabilities. If you must set them to hard work, in any case, I advise you to help them."

Islam forbade the traditional practice of enslaving free individuals by capturing them and selling them into slavery. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said:

"There are three categories of people against whom I myself shall be a plaintiff on the Day of Judgment. Of those three, one is he who enslaves free men, then sells him and eats this money…"
this is what sister fatima posted that was in another thread that u probrably and arrogantly ignored because it conflicts with what you think about muslims that u think they are a bunch of fanatics


Listen brother the real truth is evident its a shame that is hard for u to grasp it.Its seems that you would use any sort of irrational excuse to get your point across this is pure demagogy,i told u simple and plain that americans an europeans if u look at the history that they are the fathers of terrorism but as a typical demagog u will say but the muslims did it too

Thank you

I was simply pointing out the reality that America was far from the only country involved in the slave trade. Regardless of what it says in the Quran, there were plenty of self-described Muslims who were deeply involved in the practice. Slavery was wrong regardless of who practiced it, and pointing fingers at the U.S. and ignoring the larger reality does an injustice to those enslaved globally.

As for who is the "father" of terrorism, that is an absurd line of reasoning to begin with. Terrorism, meaning the use of violence against civilians is as old as mankind itself.

 

[Roasted Cashew]

I think it's hard for Americans to grasp the fact that their foreign policies are responsible for all the Muslim related terrorism in the world. If it was all about killing the infidels, Why aren't Muslim terrorists killing them in Canada or even China? WHY AMERICA. Because "with great powers, comes great responsibilities" and currently America is abusing it's powers by supporting the filthy, brutal and accursed regime of Israel.

What motivated the 9/11 hijackers? See testimony most didn't
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1bm2GPoFfg

 

[Cabdullahi]

I think it's hard for Americans to grasp the fact that their foreign policies are responsible for all the Muslim related terrorism in the world. If it was all about killing the infidels, Why aren't Muslim terrorists killing them in Canada or even China? WHY AMERICA. Because "with great powers, comes great responsibilities" and currently America is abusing it's powers by supporting the filthy, brutal and accursed regime of Israel.

What motivated the 9/11 hijackers? See testimony most didn't
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1bm2GPoFfg

I do not want to blame anyone here, yes wilderhum is right about some muslims using their religion as an excuse to carry out terrorism or whatever but you must not forget and im addressing wilderhum here that while so called muslim extremists use their religion to cause terror,western countries do the same exactly but only the excuse here is 'we will bring democracy and freedom' they use this as a free annual oil withdrawal pass.
everybody now admits the iraq war was a mistake alot of MP's in britain make these confessions but not the proud americans they see the iraq war as a success simply because there pockets are swollen and they are fairly satisfied
And what about abu ghraib prison the evils of america echoed superbly through the incidents that happened
time and time again all i hear is muslims do this muslims oppress but what occured in abu ghraib if that isnt pure oppression i dont know what liberation looks like!

thank you

 

[Keltoi]

I think it's hard for Americans to grasp the fact that their foreign policies are responsible for all the Muslim related terrorism in the world. If it was all about killing the infidels, Why aren't Muslim terrorists killing them in Canada or even China? WHY AMERICA. Because "with great powers, comes great responsibilities" and currently America is abusing it's powers by supporting the filthy, brutal and accursed regime of Israel.

What motivated the 9/11 hijackers? See testimony most didn't
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1bm2GPoFfg

America is responsible for all the Muslim related terrorism in the world? How convenient.