Attitudes on apostasy softening?

  • Thread starter Thread starter glo
  • Start date Start date
  • Replies Replies 99
  • Views Views 14K
Would you cut them out of your life?
Yes

Would you threaten them?
like ill kill you or something? No. even though apostasy is a crime punishable by death this cant just be done by anyone. as far as im aware it would need to go through court.

Would you continue to socialise with them and talk to them?
no theyd be cut out of my life...
and i would pray for their guidance or they get what they deserve.
 
There is a radio programme on this very article playing right now on BBC4 radio.
Former Muslim radical Shiraz Maher spent his student days campaigning for an Islamic caliphate in which execution for renouncing Islam would be written into the constitution. Now Shiraz is calling for moderation and greater Muslim integration into British life, a stance which has meant he himself is now labelled an apostate by some Muslim radicals, for which the penalty is death. He asks whether such an extreme punishment is really justified by the Qu'ran and the example of the Prophet Muhammad.
Repeated: Sunday 27 April 2008 17:00-17:40 (Radio 4 FM)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/religion/pip/2fcan/
 
i think the best way to deal with this issue is how some of the great Islamic scholars have advised: I heard in one of the lectures that Shaykh ul-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah (May Allah have mercy on him) said that instead of immediately putting the apostate to death we should give him dawa'h and encourage him to come back. Here is the view of some of the other scholars (May Allah have mercy on them)

The apostate is not to be put to death immediately after he falls into apostasy, especially if his apostasy happens because of some doubt that arose. Rather he should be asked to repent and he should be offered the opportunity to return to Islam and resolve his doubts, if he has any doubts. Then if he persists in his apostasy after that, he is to be put to death.

Ibn Qudaamah said in al-Mughni, 9/18:

The apostate should not be put to death until he has been asked to repent three times. This is the view of the majority of scholars, including ‘Umar, ‘Ali, ‘Ata’, al-Nakhaii, Maalik, al-Thawri, al-Awzaa’i, Ishaaq and others. Because apostasy comes about because of doubt, and cannot be dispelled in an instant. Time should be allowed for the person to rethink the matter, and the best length of time is three days.
Source: http://www.islamqa.com/index.php?ref=14231&ln=eng
 
In the above mentioned radio programme I heard an Imam make the statement that although the death penalty exists in Islam, it was only ever be intended to be carried out by 'the infallible imaams'.

I don't know what that means, or who the infallible imaams are.

Can somebody help me?

Salaam
 
In the above mentioned radio programme I heard an Imam make the statement that although the death penalty exists in Islam, it was only ever be intended to be carried out by 'the infallible imaams'.

I don't know what that means, or who the infallible imaams are.

Can somebody help me?

Salaam

Peace

do you have any idea at all if this person was a shia? :?
 
I wouldn't put money on it since gambling is haram, but yeah probably shia, since there's no such thing as "infallible imam" in Islam
 
Thank you for the link, islamirama.
I enjoyed watching it. And I liked the speaker.

I didn't hear anything which seemed to contradict the notion of the article I posted - reasons for punishment being that of threat to Islam (i.e. treason) rather that the life choice of one individual.
One comment that stood our to me, was that apostates who just turn from their faith quietly, should not require punishment.

I specifically asked my questions on a personal level.
The reason is, that I think it is easy for us to look down on those who do wrong, and to be ready to pass judgment on the and demand that justice be done.

What I am interested in, is whether we would still apply those measures, if the people committing the wrong are people close to us?
Would somebody really throw his son/daughter out of the house, if they became apostates?
Would somebody really never speak to his brother/sister again?
Would somebody really become involved in the killing of a close family member?

Clearly some people do.
Perhaps we cannot answer those questions for ourselves, until we really find ourselves in such situations ...
But it is worth searching our own feelings and conscience.

Peace

I"m glad you found the video illuminating.

There were Muslims who had turned Christians at the time of the Prophet (pbuh) and he didn't hunt them down or anything. Clearly salman Rushdie and other anti-islam bigot ex-Muslims would be deserving of this punishment because they are clearly waging a war against Islam. Some Christians even criticized the pope for publicly baptizing this one ex-Muslim when uk's PM Blair was done in private. They questioned the faith of such an ex-Muslim because when someone converts to another religion (be it Islam or Christianity or what not) they do it out of love for that new religion and not hate for the old one, nor go on a hatred anti-religion rampage like a blind lunatic.

As for your questions on a personal level. It really depends from family to family and region to region. Those who are more cultural based will take more aggressive approach then those who are more islamic knowledge based.

As for the speaker. He is an african american convert. he's name is Bilal Phillips. Search him in youtube and you'll see many of his talks uploaded. Look for contemporary issue series to watch similar videos to the one i shared.
 
In the above mentioned radio programme I heard an Imam make the statement that although the death penalty exists in Islam, it was only ever be intended to be carried out by 'the infallible imaams'.

I don't know what that means, or who the infallible imaams are.

Can somebody help me?

Salaam

I may be misreading. But to me it seems that the Imam is stating that while the death penalty exists, it can not be carried out as the only ones who could carry it out would be infallible Imams. In other words there is nobody qualified to carry the penalty out.
 
Nutshelled; Kill apostates unless you are allied with them or they offer a treaty and are not attacking you.

Qur`an 4:88-91
The four verses, 4:88-91, when carefully examined, also show that the Qur`anic perspective conflicts with the death penalty for apostasy. The first two verses state:

Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two groups regarding the hypocrites? God has cast them backward (arkasa) because of what they have earned. Do you want to guide him whom God has made to go astray? And he whom God has made to go astray, you will not find for him any way. They wish that you reject faith as they have done, so that you all become the same. So take not protectors/friends from them till they emigrate in the way of God. But if they turn away, seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither protectors/friends from them nor helpers. (4:88-89)

This passage begins by talking about hypocrites, that is, people who had declared themselves Muslims but in their hearts had decided not to believe in the teachings of Islam. The demand that they should do hijrah fi sabil allah (emigrate for the sake of God) shows that they are not the hypocrites of Madinah but are living among non-Muslims in Makkah and possibly elsewhere. Verse 98 of the same surah shows that these people were not doing hijrah despite the fact that they were able to. The reason for their not doing hijrah was their hypocrisy. Makkan non-believers who had persecuted Muslims for years, would not have tolerated in their midst any true Muslims. They would have accepted among them only those “Muslims” who had stopped taking their “islam” seriously and felt more comfortable among non-believers, hostile to Islam, than among Muslims. These hypocrites pretended to be Muslims because they wanted to be secure from both sides (see 4:91). And Makkan non-believers did not force them to publicly renounce their “islam” because they found them useful for gathering information about Muslims or for some other subversive actions against the ummah.

In order to defeat these hypocrites in their game and force them to clearly choose between Islam and kufr, God commanded them to do hijrah. Their obedience to this command meant that they had chosen Islam and their disobedience meant that they had chosen kufr. Those who chose kufr in this way became apostates, since previously they called themselves Muslims. Thus the verses are a source of guidance for us regarding the way the apostates are to be treated.

At first sight the words “seize them and kill them wherever you find them” would suggest that they are to be killed. But this is quickly seen to be wrong if we read the next two verses:

Except those who join a group between you and whom there is a (peace-) treaty or those who approach you with their hearts restraining them from fighting you or fighting their own people. Had God willed he would have given them power over you and they would have fought you. So if they withdraw from you and do not fight you but give you (guarantees of) peace, then God has opened no way for you against them.

You will find others that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people. Every time they are sent back to temptation they give in to it. If they do not withdraw from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace, nor restrain their hands, seize them and kill them, wherever you find them. In their case We have provided you with a clear warrant against them. (4:90-91).

These verses clarify the command “seize them and kill them”. The apostates who rejected Islam by failing to emigrate as commanded by God are divided into three categories:

1)Those who ally themselves with a group with whom Muslims have a peace treaty;

2)Those who want to keep neutrality, committing themselves to peace with both the Muslims and their own people who had not accepted Islam;

3)Those who provide no real guarantee of peace to Muslims and by all indications ally themselves with non-believers engaged in hostilities towards Islam.

The first two types of apostates are to be left in peace while the third one is to be treated like any non-believers in a state of war: they are to be seized and killed wherever they are found. Notice that the Qur`an uses the words “God has opened no way for you against them” in connection with the apostates of the first two types. This means that the Qur`an actually prohibits killing those apostates who want to live in peaceful terms with the Muslims.

Thus according to the Qur`an the apostates are to be treated like other kuffar: If they want to live in peace with the Muslims, they are to be left in peace and if they assume a hostile attitude, then they are to be treated accordingly.

 
I may be misreading. But to me it seems that the Imam is stating that while the death penalty exists, it can not be carried out as the only ones who could carry it out would be infallible Imams. In other words there is nobody qualified to carry the penalty out.
Thank you, Woodrow. Being a radio programme, it was all too quick for me to find out who the speaker was, and what evidecne he based his statement on.

I don't know anything about the infallible imams (I came away with the impression that he meant an actual group of imams - possibly in the past ... but I might have misheard)
To clarify this I have asked a question about the infallible imams in the Seeking Knowledge section, so I will wait for the thread to be approved there, rather than take the thread off topic here.

Peace
 
Last edited:
Some Christians even criticized the pope for publicly baptizing this one ex-Muslim when uk's PM Blair was done in private. They questioned the faith of such an ex-Muslim because when someone converts to another religion (be it Islam or Christianity or what not) they do it out of love for that new religion and not hate for the old one, nor go on a hatred anti-religion rampage like a blind lunatic.
Do you think converting so publically to another religion could be seen as an act of treason?

(On a side note about the baptism, I would like to add that the baptism is meant to be a public and open declaration. Not to show off oneself, but for the glory of God - to demonstrate that one has left behind the 'old life' and entered into a new one with God.)

As for your questions on a personal level. It really depends from family to family and region to region. Those who are more cultural based will take more aggressive approach then those who are more islamic knowledge based.
What are your personal views?

As for the speaker. He is an african american convert. he's name is Bilal Phillips. Search him in youtube and you'll see many of his talks uploaded. Look for contemporary issue series to watch similar videos to the one i shared.
I might just do that. Thank you. I like his measured and calm way of speaking, and his ability to relate to the modern Western world. :)

Peace
 
Last edited:
Do you think converting so publically to another religion could be seen as an act of treason?

(On a side note about the baptism, I would like to add that the baptism is meant to be a public and open declaration. Not to show off oneself, but for the glory of God - to demonstrate that one has left behind the 'old life' and entered into a new one with God.)

What i meant was that the christian was stating how come the baptizing of blair was done in private and baptizing of this ex-muslim done in public. It goes on to say one has to question the intention and message pope is trying to send to the Muslim world, especially knowing well how much this ex is an anti-islam bigot. The author also questioned the sincerity of this conversion stating whether if he is convert for love of christianity to further hurt Islam with his actions. So basically the anti-islam trash has an agenda of his own and doesn't really care what religion he converts to, he makes his decisions based on how he think he can hurt islam the most.

What are your personal views?

I think i already gave those in my first post.
 
Speaking as an apostate I am completely cut off. The only one i have contact with is my brother and that is vary rare. My mother wept and my father warned me to never come around under threat of violence. It pained me tremendously but as time has passed I have forgiven them.
 
Speaking as an apostate I am completely cut off. The only one i have contact with is my brother and that is vary rare. My mother wept and my father warned me to never come around under threat of violence. It pained me tremendously but as time has passed I have forgiven them.

I'm sorry to hear that, and how big of you to forgive them. Would you mind if I ask some questions out of curiosity?
1. I take it you were born in a Muslim family right? So being muslim yourself must have been the most logical thing at first when growing up, but did you at some time truly believe, or were you just a muslim because your enviroment told you to?
2. If you did believe at some point, what changed in your views that made you apostate?
 
Speaking as an apostate I am completely cut off. The only one i have contact with is my brother and that is vary rare. My mother wept and my father warned me to never come around under threat of violence. It pained me tremendously but as time has passed I have forgiven them.

I feel for you.

I can't relate as I was raised by fairly secular people (though my mother is a christian she didn't push it on my dad or myself or my sister at all), but I have heard similar stories from others in similar situations, mostly from fundamentalist christian backgrounds.

It amazes and scares me how people can turn on their loved ones for what to me are entirely irrational beliefs, imaginary gods, etc.

All i can really say is that its probably for the best that you are away from them, so their influence does not effect your own children and continue the cycle of intollerance.
 
Last edited:
Speaking as an apostate I am completely cut off. The only one i have contact with is my brother and that is vary rare. My mother wept and my father warned me to never come around under threat of violence. It pained me tremendously but as time has passed I have forgiven them.

Amazing that you forgive them. A very sad story indeed.
 
Speaking as an apostate I am completely cut off. The only one i have contact with is my brother and that is vary rare. My mother wept and my father warned me to never come around under threat of violence. It pained me tremendously but as time has passed I have forgiven them.

Why are you on an Islamic forum? personally if I had extirpated myself from any binding 'imaginary beliefs'- I'd look some place else where I can be fostered with like minds, not walking into their den with my own two ..err fingers

Is this a form for you to gain approval from Muslims?
cheers
 
I'm sorry to hear that, and how big of you to forgive them. Would you mind if I ask some questions out of curiosity?
1. I take it you were born in a Muslim family right? So being muslim yourself must have been the most logical thing at first when growing up, but did you at some time truly believe, or were you just a muslim because your enviroment told you to?
2. If you did believe at some point, what changed in your views that made you apostate?
1. I truly believed up until I was a teenager.

2. At around 17 I became curious and started studying other religions from Christians to Wiccans. The more I read about christianity the more it felt right to me. I went to a church a couple of towns over when I was 22 and I was hooked. That being said I do keep an open mind and embrace evreyones beliefs but govern my life as a christian.
 
Why are you on an Islamic forum? personally if I had extirpated myself from any binding 'imaginary beliefs'- I'd look some place else where I can be fostered with like minds, not walking into their den with my own two ..err fingers

Is this a form for you to gain approval from Muslims?
cheers

lol I don't seek anyones approval but Gods nor have I labeled anyone beliefs imaginary. I came here because even though I'm an apostate I still miss the debates I had with people in my family.
 

Similar Threads

Back
Top