Islam = logic + ethics + morality.

[aamirsaab]

Recently I read some criticisms of Islamic teachings on this forum. One of those was rather specific: the member stated words to the effect of a lack of ethics in Islamic teaching is what puts them off Islam.

Let us now look at some common Islamic teachings, starting with theft.
Now most of you who will be reading this will be aware of the sharia punishment towards theft; the cutting of hands.

What is the logic in that? Simple, it is a preventative method; that person cannot steal again with that hand.

What is the ethic behind that? First of all, to be applicable for the theft punishment, the item being sold must not be food. Secondly, the item must have a value of over approximately 3 dollars - which is around £2 (I have put this value in today's context so that you may obtain a clearer understanding). To answer the ethics behind the punishment:
A) Is it ethical to steal (an item over the value of 3 dollars and something that is not food) in the first place?
B) It is the ultimate deterrence towards theivery. Combined with the logistics behind it (cut of the limb they stole the item with) and it is rather simple. SO simple in fact that in all the western countries, theft is a crime. What changes between countries is the punishment but as I have already explained there is logic in doing this in accordance to Sharia (certainly more than imprisonment)

Let us take another example. Homosexuality.
What is the logic of this being a crime? It is actually very interesting since the answer should be well known amongst evolutionists.

Can the human species propogate via homosexuality? The answer is no. Infact, homosexuality is a huge door to diseases. Now one can argue, well so can eating food - and yes this is true. But here we are talking about something that is not neccessary for mankind to do - heck, it is actually something counterproductive towards the species as a whole. It prevents (any) species from reproducing. So given that information, we have clear reason to see this as a crime against humanity and oneself.

So from the above examples we see that there is no lack of ethic, logic or morality in any of those. Certainly no more so than there is within the acts themselves

I would now like to present the following question to all members of this forum: is there any teaching of Islam that you feel lacks ethic, logic, morality or a combination of the three?

If yes, please ask on this thread and I shall prove to you that it does.

 

[Keltoi]

"Mohammed is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Sura 48.29)

This verse always troubled me. Basically it is saying be ruthless to those who do not believe like you do, but be nice to each other. Perhaps it is troubling to me because it is the opposite of what Christ spoke about.

I would appreciate any added context to this verse that might shed a more positive light on what seems a straightforward statement.

 

[Trumble]

:
Let us take another example. Homosexuality.
What is the logic of this being a crime? It is actually very interesting since the answer should be well known amongst evolutionists.

Can the human species propogate via homosexuality? The answer is no. Infact, homosexuality is a huge door to diseases. Now one can argue, well so can eating food - and yes this is true. But here we are talking about something that is not necessary for mankind to do - heck, it is actually something counterproductive towards the species as a whole. It prevents (any) species from reproducing. So given that information, we have clear reason to see this as a crime against humanity and oneself.

As always, I find the presentation of such bigoted garbage as something to do with logic, ethics OR morality utterly depressing.

I really shouldn't have to point out the absurdity of claiming that anything should be a "crime against humanity" because it is not necessary for mankind to do it.

If the majority of the species suddenly switched from heterosexual to homosexual behaviour that wouldn't do much for its chances of reproducing itself, true. But do you seriously expect us to believe that is a credible scenario? Homosexuals have always been a minority, and with plenty of those pesky gays about the population of the planet is currently doubling every fifty years or so. When that actually starts being a problem, and people start to starve you might just find your 'logic' comes back and bites you on the backside.

The 'door to diseases' is relevant not to homosexuality per se, but to promiscuous sexual behavior in general. I would also point out that the one particular act most relevant to this is actually practicised by considerable numbers of heterosexual couples as well, albeit usually on an infrequent basis. I'm afraid if one is going to parade 'logic' without appearing foolish, one needs to remain focussed.

All we have "clear reason to see" is that your case is laughable.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Homosexuals have always been a minority, and with plenty of those pesky gays about the population of the planet is currently doubling every fifty years or so. When that actually starts being a problem, and people start to starve you might just find your 'logic' comes back and bites you on the backside.

Indeed. Homosexuality will be seen as a great virtue, a way to discharge the sexual drive while not contributing to the over poplulation and resource scarcity problem.

As to the threat title, I say Islam = Obedience. And thats all there is to it. No morality involved, just obedience. When obedience is seen AS morality, that is where these religions (christianity included) go off the rails.

Don't be good to please God. Be good for the sake of being good.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Ok, I'd like to know why 1 male witness equals 2 female or non-Muslim witnesses. Haven't seen a satisfactory reply yet.

 

[aamirsaab]

...All we have "clear reason to see" is that your case is laughable.

Tell me then, is it logical to commit sodomy today?

Indeed. Homosexuality will be seen as a great virtue, a way to discharge the sexual drive while not contributing to the over poplulation and resource scarcity problem.

We are not living in a time where resource scarcit is a problem. Nor are we living in a time were over population is. Even in such cases, homosexeuality is not the only way to 'discharge the sexual drive'
Let us look at china for example - it has an extraordinary population yet is homosexuality high? No. There are numerous ways around it without commiting sodomy. One of them is contraception, another is abstinance. Both of those cases exist today.

As to the threat title, I say Islam = Obedience. And thats all there is to it. No morality involved, just obedience. When obedience is seen AS morality, that is where these religions (christianity included) go off the rails.

Not all the time. My point is there is a lot of logic, ethics and morality within the teachings of Islam (so much so that almost every society that exists contains similar teachings - I wonder why that is?)

In any case, I believe your argument is fundementally flawed. Take for example the UK: it is illegal to marry more than one woman yet you can commit adultery (with as many people) as you please. This is not a law of any religion - rather this is a law made up of ''secularists''

Don't be good to please God. Be good for the sake of being good.

I do both.

Ok, I'd like to know why 1 male witness equals 2 female or non-Muslim witnesses. Haven't seen a satisfactory reply yet.

I do not know why this is. I've consulted my sharia law text book but it has no mention of this. I'll look into it.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

One more thing, what do you do with the person whom you've just cut off a hand? Are you required to care care of him or her?

 

['Abd al-Baari]

Ok, I'd like to know why 1 male witness equals 2 female or non-Muslim witnesses. Haven't seen a satisfactory reply yet.

http://www.islamicboard.com/miscell...women-considered-equal-testimony-one-man.html

Hope it's a satisfactory answer

 

[aamirsaab]

One more thing, what do you do with the person whom you've just cut off a hand? Are you required to care care of him or her?

Once they've had their punishment, end of. It works similar to the way after a theft would have received his/her punishment in any other country; you go to court - if the verdict finds you guilty and the judge is convinced then you get your punishment (whatever it is) then you go home.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

One of them is contraception, another is abstinance. Both of those cases exist today.

You said homosexuality is a crime against humanity because it prevents reproducing, why not claim the same for contraception and abstinence?

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Once they've had their punishment, end of. It works similar to the way after a theft would have received his/her punishment in any other country; you go to court - if the verdict finds you guilty and the judge is convinced then you get your punishment (whatever it is) then you go home.

Yeah, but the person would most probably be bleeding heavily, are you required to help him or her?

 

[aamirsaab]

You said homosexuality is a crime against humanity because it prevents reproducing, why not claim the same for contraception and abstinence?

We are dealing with seperate issues - that particular comment was referring to extreme circumstances (i.e overpopulation). Secondly, I would make the same complaint but I was dealing with just two at the time. I then asked you guys to provide examples where logic, ethics or morality didn't exist.

Yeah, but the person would most probably be bleeding heavily, are you required to help him or her?

Lol. Obviously you'd have to ''tend'' to the wound - that goes without saying. It's not even an issue.

Woops sorry keltoi, I forgot about your post:

"Mohammed is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Sura 48.29)

This verse always troubled me. Basically it is saying be ruthless to those who do not believe like you do, but be nice to each other. Perhaps it is troubling to me because it is the opposite of what Christ spoke about.

I would appreciate any added context to this verse that might shed a more positive light on what seems a straightforward statement.

I will look into this tonight. My initial assumption is that it is contextual based but will definitely look tonight.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

http://www.islamicboard.com/miscell...women-considered-equal-testimony-one-man.html

Hope it's a satisfactory answer

It's not, keep trying.
If I were a feminist, I'd get furious after reading that.
And besides, it doesn't cover non-muslim.

 

[Tornado]

I'm glad I don't live in a world where the only acceptable relationship would be to be with another guy and have to force myself to be something I'm just not. Especially considering that same-sex marriage would be between two consenting parties and would not hurt anyone at all. (Is this off-topic?)

 

[Whatsthepoint]

We are dealing with seperate issues - that particular comment was referring to extreme circumstances (i.e overpopulation). Secondly, I would make the same complaint but I was dealing with just two at the time. I then asked you guys to provide examples where logic, ethics or morality didn't exist.

I don't think it exists in the case of homosexuality, the logic you described is flawed. Trumble's repmly sums it all up, I wish you'd took time to reply all of his points.

Lol. Obviously you'd have to ''tend'' to the wound - that goes without saying. It's not even an issue.

Ok.

 

[aamirsaab]

I'm glad I don't live in a world where the only acceptable relationship would be to be with another guy and have to force myself to be something I'm just not.

But why stop there? What happens when you get bored with the same gender? Maybe move on to animals? Cus that's what some guys are doing.

Can you not see the logic behind these rulings? Can you not see why these barriers are there? THis is the point I am making with Islam - there IS logic, there IS morality, there IS ethics. All of which HELP society!

Especially considering that same-sex marriage would be between two consenting parties and would not hurt anyone at all.

Consent does not negate the crime. If I consent to being shot in the head with a real bullet and someone does it and I get killed, would you trial that person for manslaughter (or murder depending on how you interpret it)?

I don't think it exists in the case of homosexuality, the logic you described is flawed. Trumble's repmly sums it all up, I wish you'd took time to reply all of his points.

What doesn't exist in the case of homosexuality?

 

[Whatsthepoint]

The cutting of the hand again.
What would be the case of a drug-addict, stealing drugs the value of more than 3 dollars? Or a diagnosed kleptomaniac? Or a woman desperately trying to finance her little boy's education which is why she stole over 3 dollars?
What I'm trying to find out is whether the Islamic law deals with each case of theft individually, on a trial?

 

[Tornado]

But why stop there? What happens when you get bored with the same gender? Maybe move on to animals? Cus that's what some guys are doing.

Clearly the animal doesn't have a say in this so I'd be against it.

Consent does not negate the crime. If I consent to being shot in the head with a real bullet and someone does it and I get killed, would you trial that person for manslaughter (or murder depending on how you interpret it)?

Euthanasia?
No one is harmed when it comes to homosexuality.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

What doesn't exist in the case of homosexuality?

Logic, ethics morality.
Your' question was this:

I then asked you guys to provide examples where logic, ethics or morality didn't exist.

But why stop there? What happens when you get bored with the same gender? Maybe move on to animals? Cus that's what some guys are doing.

Animals cannot consent.

Consent does not negate the crime. If I consent to being shot in the head with a real bullet and someone does it and I get killed, would you trial that person for manslaughter (or murder depending on how you interpret it)?

You have to prove homosexuality is a crime (using logic).
If it were proven you were sane at the time of the request, I personally wouldn't prosecute the person who shot you. Of course, proving the sanity of a dead person is very hard, but not so hard with living adults (homosexuals in this case)

Can you not see the logic behind these rulings? Can you not see why these barriers are there? THis is the point I am making with Islam - there IS logic, there IS morality, there IS ethics. All of which HELP society!

Some of us hold individual liberty in higher esteem then the well being of society, which the legalization of homosexuality would not change drastically.

tornado, sorry for replying to a post meant for you.

 

[aamirsaab]

What would be the case of a drug-addict, stealing drugs the value of more than 3 dollars?

First of all we are not to go anywhere near anything that is harmful to us (such as intoxicants or drugs). Secondly, if it is in the case of medicine then obviously it's not a crime. Lastly, it would depend on the case. I gave the general rule of thumb.

Or a diagnosed kleptomaniac?

Having such a disorder would negate the cutting of hand punishment.

Or a woman desperately trying to finance her little boy's education which is why she stole over 3 dollars?

The ruler would be held accountable; if a mother is not able to finance her own son's education, then there is something wrong with that country. In the event that this is not the case it would ultimately reside into the hands of the court.

What I'm trying to find out is whether the Islamic law deals with each case of theft individually, on a trial?

Most of the laws are general but there is always room for common sense. Infact, one of the requirements to be the judge in an Islamic state is to have common sense (since they are dealing with PEOPLE'S LIVES). It is also for this reason the judge carries so much weight in the courtroom.