Keltoi
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He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him. John 3:36
See how pointless this could get?
Christian Trinity and Muslim's Tauwheed [monotheism] = Same God? A Clarification.
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He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him. John 3:36
See how pointless this could get?
O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All*Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs. (An-Nisa 4:171)
Allah SWT has an answer to all your concerns, Maybe you won't find things so pointless afterwards.
Keltoi
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...and the cycle continues
Nay, We fling (send down) the truth (this Qur'an) against the falsehood (disbelief), so it destroys it, and behold, it (falsehood) is vanished. And woe to you for that (lie) which you ascribe (to Us) (against Allah by uttering that Allah has a wife and a son). (Al-Anbiya 21:18)
Glory be to Allah!!!!!
Now open your heart and let Allah SWT Speak to you....
O you who believe [in Musa (Moses) (i.e. Jews) and 'Iesa (Jesus) (i.e. Christians)]! Fear Allah, and believe too in His Messenger (Muhammad SAW), He will give you a double portion of His Mercy, and He will give you a light by which you shall walk (straight), and He will forgive you. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Al-Hadid 57:28)
Keltoi
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Hmmm...No Christian ever stated God had a "wife." So either God is wrong or God didn't "write" that verse.
My advice is when your at loss its more befitting for you that you don't pick at things that are fruitless.
As you can see the words are in brackets signifying the translators logic behind what the nature is of creating a Son (By a legal marriage of husband and wife in which offsprings are created).
The brackets were inserted by myself.
And the Word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can change His Words. And He is the All*Hearer, the All*Knower. (Al-An'am 6:115)
Keltoi
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So the translator is telling us that God had a legal marriage in which an offspring was created?
No, other translations do not have what Brother Coddles76 had in parenthesis. I believe that he said he himself inserted them for explanation.
Malik 21:18
Nay! We give falsehood a violent blow with the Truth to knock it out and behold! Falsehood vanishes away. Woe be to you, for all the false gods you have invented.
Yusuf Ali 21;18
Nay We hurl the Truth against falsehood and it knocks out its brain and behold falsehood doth perish! Ah! woe be to you for the (false) things ye ascribe (to Us).
Pickthal 21:18
Nay, but We hurl the true against the false, and it doth break its head and lo! it vanisheth. And yours will be woe for that which ye ascribe (unto Him).
Whatsthepoint
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This is a peculiar verse:
And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden? 5:116
It seems the author of the Quran wasn't familiar with the teachings of mainstream Christianity..
And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden? 5:116
It seems the author of the Quran wasn't familiar with the teachings of mainstream Christianity..
Fazl Ahmad
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Many Christians mistakenly assume that the sacred Quran is referring to the trinity concept (father, son, holy ghost) in this blessed ayah. However, this is not necessarily the case. As you may know many Christians, especially the Catholic sect, worship and pray to Mary, and along with Jesus (alaihi salatu wa salam) they have become two objects of devotion in orthodox Christianity.
In essence, Muslims, Christians, and Jews are devoted to the same God, the Mighty God of Abraham (alaihi salam), but the other religions have mistaken notions about God. Christians also believe Jesus (alaihi salam) is the begotten son of God, which Islam considers a violation of monotheism.
Whatsthepoint
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Catholic don't worship Mary. And by no means is she referred to as god, which is what the verse says:
Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah.
If the verse was talking of objects of devotion, it should have mentioned saints as well, who Catholics also pray to.
Fazl Ahmad
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What Catholics consider Mary to be or not is besides the point. The fact of matter is, and you cannot deny, that many Christians pray to Mary, though they claim this is "intercession". For example you may be familiar with a prayer "Hail Mary", which is their equivalent of "Allahu Akbar" (Allah is the Greatest). If you go to their places of worship, you will see images and statues of Mary and other saints as well, but Mary is the most prominent after Jesus (alaihi salam) himself. Look what Allah holy and exalted is He says in the sacred Quran: Is it not to Allah that sincere devotion is due? But those who take for protectors other than Allah (say): "We only serve them in order that they may bring us nearer to Allah." Truly Allah will judge between them in that wherein they differ. But Allah guides not such as are false and ungrateful. (az-Zumar 39:3)
Definitely this blessed ayah is referring to the tendency of the unbelievers to worship saints and intermediaries which they claim is bringing them nearer to Allah. In a sense, Catholics praying to their "saints" is really no different than Hindus praying to their avatars and idols claiming it is bringing them to moksha (liberation with the divine essence) according to their religion.
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The verse clearly says two gods! Mary is not a god, end of story. The Holy Spirit holds greater prominence than Mary, after all he is a god, Mary isn't.
Fazl Ahmad
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Of course you are entitled to your opinion, only I wish you were a little more open minded and try to see the beautiful teaching of the sacred Quran.
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I'm fine with the one god thing, seems much more logical than the trinity, I'm just saying this verse is wrong, it either mistakenly assesses Christians believe Mary is a part of the Trinity or that certain Christians view Mary as a god or that they pray to her, which they don't.
Jesus will be addressing Christians, so why would he be addressing them from a Muslim point of view, rather then theirs?
Imagine Muhammad coming to Earth saying he never told Muslims to worship the moon god. Even though some people claim Muslims worship the moon god, they in fact don't and it wouldn't make sense for Muhammad to address Muslims in that way.
Am I making sense?
Fazl Ahmad
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Yes sir I see where you are coming from. But I really think you have to understand that Islam has a different standard and understanding of devotion than other religions. From our perspective, many Christians do make Mary into a god, even if they don't admit it or it isn't their intention. You know the saying, "a spade is a spade", you can call it anything you want, but you can never change the reality. The real point I am trying to make though is that you have to really consider the sacred Quran with an open mind and see what it is really trying to say rather than making quick judgments and dismissing it without second thought. Thanks.
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I can tell Muslims may feel Mary is a god, but:
1. Why aren't The Holy Spirit and the saints mentioned?
2. As I explained in my post (read it again), I don0t see why Jesus would address non-Muslims without the proper knowledge of Islam in an Islamic manner? Would that make sense?
After all, the Christians could simply reply that they never held Mary is a God. What would happen next? A theological debate between Christians and Jesus and possibly Allah?
I have given it a lot of thought and no matter how liberally I try to interpret it it still doesn't make sense.
Fazl Ahmad
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Yes sir thank you for being honest, and I think that if you ask questions instead of passing quick judgments you will be much more enlightened, and happier for it as well. As far as I can see, I believe that if you read the sacred Quran, from beginning to end, you will see the beautiful message of this special book and you will also find, insha Allah, that is makes perfect sense.
The Quran mentions many spiritual subjects in order to gently rebuke mistaken beliefs and misconceptions of other religions. For example, the sacred Quran mentions that Jesus (alaihi salam) was indeed strengthened by the holy spirit, as Christians believe, but than it also explains what exactly the holy spirit is:
Say, the holy spirit has brought the revelation from your Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims (an-Nahl 16:102)
The function of the holy spirit is to deliver revelation and strengthen the true believers with glad tidings. The holy spirit is in fact the angel Gabriel, the angel of revelation. So this is how the sacred Quran answers the misguided beliefs of other religions by not just attacking them, but also explaining the truth of the matter.
The sacred Quran does indeed mention the fatal error of saint-worshiping: They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no god save Him. Be He glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)! (at-Tauba 9:31)
Allah Most High has rebuked the tendency of other religions for taking their spiritual leaders, priests, monks, rabbis, etc., as "gods", praying to them and ascribing qualities to them which are only befitting for Allah, the One and Only true God.
On the Day of Judgment, the Christians and others who took for objects of devotion their saints, the virgin Mary, and Jesus (alaihi salam) will have to answer for their fatal error. Allah will question them why did they pray to human beings? Why did they dedicate shrines to them? Why did they sacrifice animals in their name? Why did they give them titles and names which violate the sanctity of Allah and which go against monotheism? They did all these things with their full intention and despite the warning of all Allah's prophets to be devoted to Allah alone and forsake the devotion of everything else. So I don't believe there will be any "debate", but their will be lots of regret and gnashing of teeth on the part of the unbelievers.