Christian Trinity and Muslim's Tauwheed [monotheism] = Same God? A Clarification.

RoseGold said:
Intercede? That is the key word. So, in asking Mary to help... you cannot ask God directly? I'm just curious. No priest could ever offer me a decent enough answer. That's why Islam made so much sense to me. One God. The One to ask for help. So simple. So easy. So beautiful.
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Think about it this way. As Christians we often say to one another "pray for me." Does that mean we believe that person worthy of worship as God? No, it is simply asking a person to pray for you, to intercede on your behalf.

It is the same principle with the saints and Mary. As a Catholic, they are asking Mary or a saint to pray for them, to intercede. Personally I do not find the practice to be necessary. That is why I'm a Protestant and not a Catholic.
 
Keltoi said:
It is the same principle with the saints and Mary. As a Catholic, they are asking Mary or a saint to pray for them, to intercede.
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So we're back to the worship point. In thinking Mary can hear and answer our prayers that is giving her a God-like status
 
RoseGold said:
So we're back to the worship point. In thinking Mary can hear and answer our prayers that is giving her a God-like status
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Mary's status is one area in which Protestants and Catholics will never agree. However, that status, to a Catholic, does not equal worship. I can say so, you can say so, but Catholics themselves will never state they worship Mary or the saints.
 
Whatsthepoint said:
But what is the point of Jesus telling them he never told them to worship Mary as a god (which he didn't according to the the Bible), even though they believe otherwise.
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The point is that Allah is questioning Jesus about whether or not he told his followers to worship him and his mother. What follows is Jesus' response to Allah. We believe that Jesus will disassociate himself on that Day from those who worshipped him.
 
My Queen, My Mother, I offer
myself entirely to Thee.
And to show my devotion to Thee,
I offer Thee this day, my eyes,
my ears, my mouth, my heart,
my whole being without reserve.
Wherefore, good Mother, as I am thine own, keep me, guard me as Thy property and possession.
Amen


Yes. This most certainly sounds like worship.


Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve! To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this, our exile, show us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!


Another Yes for worship.



The answer is simple actually. To the Christians saying that they don't worship Mary, your prayers are saying something else. It is a stretch to say that this is not a type of worship.

You offer your self to her.
You say that you are her property.
You cry out to her.
And ask for her mercy.

W-O-R-S-H-I-P
 
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These are Catholic prayers, not all Christians are Catholic, only one half are, and not all Catholics say those prayers.
 
Whatsthepoint said:
These are Catholic prayers, not all Christians are Catholic, only one half are, and not all Catholics say those prayers.
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They are Christian prayers and I applaud Christians who have turned away from such worship. They are one more step towards Islam.
 
MustafaMc said:
The point is that Allah is questioning Jesus about whether or not he told his followers to worship him and his mother. What follows is Jesus' response to Allah. We believe that Jesus will disassociate himself on that Day from those who worshipped him.
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That's the best point so far, but it still doesn't make complete sense.
 
Greetings and peace be with you AntiKarateKid;
I truly believe that if I knew all the facts about what we were debating about, I would win.
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You are implying you do not have all the facts, and if you don't know all the facts, why are you debating? Its a bit like saying I could win the lottery if only I knew the numbers in advance.

In the spirit of praying for an inner peace that surpasses all understanding,

Eric
 
Whatsthepoint said:
That's the best point so far, but it still doesn't make complete sense.
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Pope Benedict
"People who pray the Rosary are appealing to the Mother of Mercy and so merciful is She, that She's inclined to aid spontaneously, those who suffer. She is absolutely incapable of refusing help to those who invoke Her. The Rosary prayed daily is the most fitting formula for praying and meditating."


Just give it up. This is not homage or veneration. This is prayer for the type of help only God can give. What more proof do you need???? Oh .. you want the Bible to call Mary "God"... riiiiight just like it calls Jesus "God" right?


While your're at it see the boons of praying toward Mary!

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3543/PromisesRsry.htm
 
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Eric H said:
Greetings and peace be with you AntiKarateKid;


You are implying you do not have all the facts, and if you don't know all the facts, why are you debating? Its a bit like saying I could win the lottery if only I knew the numbers in advance.

In the spirit of praying for an inner peace that surpasses all understanding,

Eric
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I'm not a scholar. Thats all I am saying. Scholar vs scholar with literary proofs = eye opener. One states something, the other attempts to disprove it. Falsehoods will show sooner or later when the convoluted and ridiculous defenses of falsehood are readily seen.
 
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AntiKarateKid said:
Pope Benedict
"People who pray the Rosary are appealing to the Mother of Mercy and so merciful is She, that She's inclined to aid spontaneously, those who suffer. She is absolutely incapable of refusing help to those who invoke Her. The Rosary prayed daily is the most fitting formula for praying and meditating."


Just give it up. This is not homage or veneration. This is prayer for the type of help only God can give. What more proof do you need???? Oh .. you want the Bible to call Mary "God"... riiiiight just like it calls Jesus "God" right?
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No, it's not praying Mary for help, it's asking Mary to pray to or ask God to help.
I'd like you to find the slightest indication of Mary being god in the Bible, on indication, that's it.
 
AntiKarateKid said:
Onto the main topic. Your prayers clearly show a worship - esque attitude toward Mary. Adoration or veneration of her DOES NOT INCLUDE asking for forgiveness or asking for her to protect you or stating that you are hers. SHe herself offered herself to God and you are offering yourself to her.

Your words are not matching with your beliefs no matter how you cut it. I suggest, if I may be so bold, taking another look at your prayers and ask yourself if they are directed toward whom you want them to be directed.

Your own prayers are so misleading that other Christians and faiths have accused you of venerating Gods followers instead of Him. That is something to think about. Indeed even your own people spend more time praying to patron saint of X and Mary when what they pray for lay with God alone.

That is prayer to Gods servants not him no matter which way you cut it. Even if your doctrine may want to state otherwise, your prayers are self evident in their nature.
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Really? Please point out any of my prayers, my words, or my doctrines that do any of the things you suggest. Show me one time, not just in this thread, but any place on this entire forum where I have ever "offer[ed] [my]self to her [Mary]."

I think you mis-speak.
 
RoseGold said:
What about "Hail Mary full of grace etc..."? Isn't that classed as worship? That's how I took it as a little girl when I was in church. We'd also say it every morning in assemberly. We mentioned Mary and Jesus (peace be upon them) more than God.
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If so, then you are suggesting that the angel Gabriel that God sent to reveal to Mary that she was chosen to bear Jesus was not just delivering a message but worshipping Mary, for that is where those words come from.

Luke 1

26And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

27To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

29And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

30And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

34Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

36And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

37For with God nothing shall be impossible.

38And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.
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RoseGold said:
Really? How come? Do they believe it's worship as well and disagree with it? If so, doesn't that mean they are questioning their own faith?
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They don't choose not to use these prayers because they think its a form of worship, they choose to pray to God directly, and if they pray to Mary they may choose a different wording.
 
Grace Seeker said:
Really? Please point out any of my prayers, my words, or my doctrines that do any of the things you suggest. Show me one time, not just in this thread, but any place on this entire forum where I have ever "offer[ed] [my]self to her [Mary]."

I think you mis-speak.
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I think you mis-understand. You stated the Christians..CHRISTIANS do not pray to Mary like she is a god ( notice the lower case). Here are prayers showing people asking of HER what the should be asking of God ( capital here). You say that you have never done this? Good! My point is not to show that YOU were doing this but rather to show that Many Christians do this. As for the people who choose not to use these prayers and try to pray to Allah directly.. good for you. You are 1 step towards Islam because you realize that you should be directing thsoe prayers toward God and not Mary.
 

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