Why do we follow hadeeths?

Salaams Volvic,

Welcome to the forum.

Hope the above answers your question.

Wishing you a great stay.

We should follow hadith because it is the characteristics of the prophet Muhammed pbuh..

And seeing as you have no firsthand experience, the hadith is all we have left of that.

But its a double edged sword for sure...

If there is something that Connot be changed then the only way to corrupt it is the introduction of new material.

And the only way to counter it is knowing exactly what is written in the Quran and bring able to tell when contradiction occurs.

...your examples leave me doubting.

I shall have to read again.

Also if you look at any other monotheistic religion they have all faced the same problems as Islam..

So history is the warning.. Although even without corruption, the law and implementation of the law is what makes or breaks a people.

The beauty of Allah swt.. We are what he makes us.

Lastly there is no compulsion in religion.. Or firstly.

Its a learning experience if anything the hadith make it easier to recognise the similarities between people.. Brotherhood.

If they are adopted by others you would have to ask why.


Its an incomplete answer but allah swt is aware of us either way.

I bought a DSLR camera, it came with a manual. I ignored the manual because it was written by humans, but he camera was built by machines - i trust machines more than humans so I did not use the manual at all and spent a long time trying to figure out how to use DSLR... in the end i was doing it all wrong. So i referred to the manual and discovered how to use the DSLR properly...

...see what i did there?

Scimi

Welcome to the forum to our new members.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eesaa_F

And the Prophet (SAW) was indeed the greatest teacher, and yet, most of the things in hadith are only sunnah. If you choose to not comply, it's okay but would you live this worldly life without the sunnah of the Prophet (SAW) who was guaranteed accommodation in Janaah?

The term 'Sunnah' has different definitions depending on the discipline from which one approaches the topic. If we are talking about rulings in Islam, such as an action being prohibited (Haram), obligatory (Wajib) or recommended (Sunnah), then in such a case the term Sunnah means the performer of such an action is promised reward while the one who does not do it is not threatened with punishment. So in this case, yes a person has the choice not to do the action which is Sunnah.

However, as an authority of Islamic Law, the definition is whatever comes from the Prophet other than the Qur'an in speech, actions and tacit approvals. As a source of Islamic Law, it is not an option whether to comply or not, rather we are commanded to accept it and obey it as an integral part of Islam:

“And obey Allaah and the Messenger that you may obtain mercy” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:132 – interpretation of the meaning]

"So take whatever the Messenger gives you and keep away from what he forbids you." (Sûrah Al-Hashr 59:7– interpretation of the meaning]

“Say (O Muhammad to mankind): ‘If you (really) love Allaah, then follow me, Allaah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allaah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful’” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:31 – interpretation of the meaning]

Allah Himself has clearly stated in many places of the Noble Quran that everyone, regardless of any situation or status, should obey the Prophet in all times and conditions, and when they do so, then they have achieved obedience to Allah. What is obligatory upon all Muslims is that they do not separate the Quran from the Sunnah; moreover, it is obligatory to follow both of them and to formulate laws using both. This is a safeguard for the people, so that they do not falter and regress, as explained by the Prophet : “I am leaving behind two things - you will never go astray if you hold fast to them: the Quran and my Sunnah.”[At-Tirmithi]

A great scholar of Islam, Imam Ibnul Qayyim, stated that: “Muslims are in consensus that anytime a Muslim recognizes a Sunnah in relation to any issue then he has no way but to accept it, practice it and implement it.”

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.

If there is something that Connot be changed then the only way to corrupt it is the introduction of new material.

And the only way to counter it is knowing exactly what is written in the Quran and bring able to tell when contradiction occurs.

The Qur'an and Sunnah are both revelation from Allaah , therefore neither is the Sunnah 'new material' added in by someone else, nor is it possible for there to be a contradiction between the two.

Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination. It is not but a revelation revealed. [An-Najm 53:3-4]

The Prophet said: “Verily I have been given the Qur’aan and something similar to it along with it. But soon there will be a time when a man will be reclining on his couch with a full stomach, and he will say, ‘You should adhere to this Qur’aan: what you find that it says is permissible, take it as permissible, and what you find it says is forbidden, take it as forbidden.’ But indeed, whatever the Messenger of Allaah forbids is like what Allaah forbids.” Narrated by al-Tirmidhi (2664).

He also said: “I have left you upon clear proof, its night is like its day, no one deviates from it except he who’s bound to doom, and whoever amongst you lives for long will see great controversy. So stick to what you know from my Sunnah and the Sunnah of the Orthodox, Rightly-guided Caliphs, cling to that with your molar teeth.” [Ahmad]


Finally, some reject the Sunnah because they say that there are flaws in its recording. They claim that too many Hadeeths were fabricated or "projected back," or were not recorded until later generations. Hadeeth and Sunnah scholars have responded to all such claims throughout history. They showed definite evidence that the Hadeeth recording was established at the time when the Prophet was alive. As for fabricated Hadeeths, the methodology followed by these scholars ensured that none of them was to remain uncovered. Muslims do not accept but the Hadeeths that were proven acceptable under that methodology. Actually, this fact makes Islam unique among all religions. It rendered it immune to corruption and change.

Some material taken from (worth a read for more info):
http://library.islamweb.org/emainpag...f-the-sunnah-i
http://fatwa.islamweb.net/en/article...low-the-sunnah
http://fatwa.islamweb.net/en/article...unnah-in-islam

We also have a collection of threads on this topic which you might find useful :
Index of useful threads

Assalaamu alaikum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuh,

The two sources of guidance, instruction, and legislation for our faith, are the Qur'an, and the sunnah of the Prophet (as preserved in the authentic hadeeth).

The rejection of hadeeth, which is actually the rejection of the Prophets sunnah (example, way, commandments, approvals, deeds, sayings etc) as recorded in the hadeeth, is something, which strikes at the very roots, the very heart, and the very foundation, of one's entire Islam and imaan, in a way that can completely nullify both. It is a concept that is very dangerous, because people get taken in by the very weak arguments that hadeeth rejectors make.

In order to explain firmly, why hadeeth rejection is wrong, the post will become long and detailed, but there is no short way to do it, so it will be either one long post or a few shorter ones, so please bear with it/them, as there are many angles from which this has to be addressed, and evidence to substantiate what is said has to be provided from the Qur'aan and the hadeeth.

Hadeeth rejectors often call themselves Qur'an only Muslims, or Qur'anists, and tout themselves to be a purer kind of Muslim, or to be following a more authentic Islam. However, nothing could be further from the truth. The Prophet (may Allah's peace, blessings and salutations be upon him) did not know Qur'anism, nor did his companions (may Allah be pleased with them). The Prophet (may Allah's peace, blessings and salutations be upon him) established his sunnah, had it recorded, and the told us we must follow both the Qur'an and sunnah lest we go astray. The Prophet (may Allah's peace, blessings and salutations be upon him), his companions, and all the early generations of Muslims, followed the Qur'an and sunnah as instructed by the Prophet (may Allah's peace, blessings and salutations be upon him), and as do the main body of Muslims now, which one should not split away from. The rejection of his hadeeth is a relatively recent invention. We should not call them Qur'an only Muslims or Qur'anists, because, as will be shown later, if a person truly follows the Qur'an, they have to follow the sunnah, because Allah tells us in the Qur'an to follow the Prophet's sunnah. When you reject his sunnah, you actually reject part of the Qur'an, and we seek Allah's refuge from that.

The other thing to note, is that the sunnah was taught to the Prophet by Allah (as will be shown later), so if you reject the sunnah, you are rejecting what Allah taught the Prophet to teach people, so rejecting Allah's teachings, which is a kind of rebellion against both Allah and the Prophet he sent for us (may Allah's peace, blessings and salutations be upon him), which should demonstrate how very serious this issue is.

People often say that the sunnah (as recorded in the hadeeth), is the "how to" of commands given in the Qur'an. However, it is also important to know that the sunnah is also an independent source of law in itself, with prohibitions on gold, and silk, for men, only contained in the ahadeeth.

To be continued in shaa Allah...

format_quote Originally Posted by volvic

If the Quran (as Allah declares it) is " complete", "clear", "detailed" and "perfect" and if it is the ultimate guidance from Allah, then why do follow what hadith collections tell us i.e Sahih Bukhari. And why do we need some sharia laws when when they are derived from such hadiths?

There are verses used by those who harbour doubts about the hadeeth, to imply that anything other than the Qur'an is not meant to be followed by Muslims, because the Qur'an is a clear fully detailed explanation of everything, thus nothing else is needed, and if it is, that would imply something is missing from the Qur'an, thus contradicting those verses. Therefore, according to hadeeth rejectors, the Qur'an says that anything other than the Qur'an should not be followed. This is a very shallow and faulty argument and is easily addressed.

And another verse quoted by Qur'anists:

There is not a moving (living) creature on earth, nor a bird that flies with its two wings, but are communities like you. We have neglected nothing in the Book, then unto their Lord they (all) shall be gathered. (Qur'an 6:38)

One interpretation is that the Book here is not in reference to the Qur'an but the preserved tablet that has recorded on it everything that will occur up until the Day of Judgement. This is similar to Surah Hood, ayah 6.

If one takes the Book to refer to the Qur'an, this does not imply that the sunnah is not an authority and obligatory upon Muslims to follow. As we all know, the details concerning the prayer, zakat, fasts etc are not all spelled out, detailed, or explained in the Qur'an. So, in order for this interpretation to be accurate, given the reality of the situation, it must mean the following as ibn al-Jawzi explained it: "It is a general statement that has a particular intent behind it. The meaning therefore is: We have not omitted anything which you would be in need of except that it has been made clear in the book, either by clear text, undetailed statement, or indication." In other words, everything is mentioned in the Book, in either direct detail, or by reference to the source where the necessary detail can be found. Hence the Book itself does not contain details of the prayers, fasts and so forth, but the Book points the believer to where those details can be found: the sunnah of the Prophet (may the peace, blessings and salutations of Allah be upon him). When understood in this manner, such verses are not an argument against the authority of the sunnah (or it's records in the hadeeth), but rather it's indispensability.

Clearly Allah does not spell out all the details of worship, law and life in the Qur'an itself. Instead, the Qur'an points the believer to all that is needed to be truly guided. Included in this is the sunnah itself as well as other aspects such as contemplating creation and so forth. The Qur'an clarifies all that is needed in one's life and part of what is needed in one's life is adherence to the sunnah of the messenger of Allah . The Book itself makes this fact abundantly clear with it's numerous verses containing the command to obey the Prophet (may the peace, blessings and salutations of Allah be upon him). When we follow the Qur'an we are following Allah's words and command, as not a word of it is from the Prophet (may the peace, blessings and salutations of Allah be upon him). To obey the Prophet we must follow his sayings, commands, actions, as they are recorded in the hadeeth. There is no more accurate record of the sunnah, than their preservation in the authentic hadeeth.

The sunnah of our beloved prophet (may the peace, blessings and salutations of Allah be upon him) is preserved down to the minutest detail in the authentic hadeeth, which is only proper if he is the last prophet, sent for the whole of mankind until the end of time, after whom no prophet will come. Otherwise the verse telling us that we have in the Prophet's example a beautiful pattern of conduct for us, is meaningless.

If a person believes that nothing other than the word of Allah is to be considered, and any explanation by the Prophet (may the peace, blessings and salutations of Allah be upon him) is invalid, or that all explanations by him cannot be relied upon wholesale, in essence this is implying that Allah, instead of sending His book through a Prophet, could have sent printed copies directly to each individual, if it's explanation by the Prophet (may the peace, blessings and salutations of Allah be upon him) was not necessary, and if each individual had to use his/her own personal reasoning as it's explanation. It's implying that if He knew with His knowledge of the future that the records of the prophets explanations would be wholesale rejected and classified as corrupt, then He got it all wrong by sending it through a prophet and asking the prophet to explain it for mankind. But Allah did not leave us to fumble in the dark making our our own explanations, he sent the book to a prophet, described in the Qur'an as a mercy for all mankind, and as a teacher of the book, to show us how to put it into practice, to explain it to us, to show us the details for certain things mentioned without detail in the Qur'an etc. Allah was indeed was merciful to us in leaving us such a rich and detailed source of the explanation of the Qur'an, it exegesis, and in the Prophets character and practices, so that we can follow his example.

To be continued in shaa Allah...

On the contrary, the Qur'an makes it clear that the Prophet received another type of inspiration from Allah, one that was binding on him and his followers.

...And We did not make the qiblah which you used to face except that We might make evident who would follow the Messenger from who would turn back on his heels. And indeed, it is difficult except for those whom Allah has guided. (2:143, part)
We have certainly seen the turning of your face, [O Muhammad], toward the heaven, and We will surely turn you to a qiblah with which you will be pleased. So turn your face toward al-Masjid al-Haram. And wherever you [believers] are, turn your faces toward it [in prayer]. Indeed, those who have been given the Scripture well know that it is the truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do.(2:144)

These verses are in reference to the Muslims facing Jerusalem before the direction of the prayer was changed to Makkah. Allah explicitly states that it was He that appointed that original direction of prayer. However this inspiration and command to the Prophet to face Jerusalem never formed part of the Qur'an. Hence this shows that the Prophet received another type of inspiration/command from Allah, that was binding on him and his followers.

And do not pray [the funeral prayer, O Muhammad], over any of them who has died - ever - or stand at his grave. Indeed, they disbelieved in Allah and His Messenger and died while they were defiantly disobedient. (9:84)

This verse shows us that funeral prayers had already begun to be performed and that the Prophet used to offer prayers at the burial of the dead before this verse was revealed. Yet there is no verse in the Qur'an that orders the Prophet and the Muslims to pray specific funeral prayers over the dead. It must be conceded, that the command for the funeral prayer was given to the Prophet through the sunnah, and that command was binding on him and his followers.

These verses also show, that what the Prophet established as part of the religion, is approved by Allah. Nowhere in the Qur'an can one find any type of censure or rebuke or correction of the Prophet for establishing facts that are not in the Qur'an. If the Prophet , whose message and teachings are for everyone until the Day of Judgement, made any statement or established any practice that should not form part of the religion, one would expect that Allah would have clearly and unequivocally demonstrated that such practices do not form part of the religion, or that the Prophet does not have the right to establish any practice in the religion outside of the Qur'an. But one cannot find anything of that nature. Indeed, you can only find the opposite: approval or acceptance of what the Messenger of Allah established, in addition to the numerous verses ordering Muslims to accept and follow whatever the Prophet instructs them to do. If these practices of the Prophet are ordered/approved/accepted by Allah, and Allah commands us to follow them, then Muslims cannot reject them.

As I quoted above,He Allah said:

And We did not make the qiblah which you used to face except that We might make evident who would follow the Messenger from who would turn back on his heels. And indeed, it is difficult except for those whom Allah has guided. (2:143, part)

Take note. Not following the Messenger on a command which wasn't in the Qur'an, classed as not following the Messenger, and turning back on one's heels, and being misguided. That is very serious indeed. Condemnation from Allah not on one level, but on three levels. There can be nothing more serious than that. Allah had given the Prophet the command, but some people disobeyed it. So, in reality, they disobeyed Allah, from whom the command originated. And that is exactly what hadeeth rejectors are doing now, not following the Prophets commands which aren't in the Qur'an, even though Allah also says:

"Nor does he speak of (his own) desire." (53:3), asserting that nothing the Prophet utters, is of his own desire or wish.
"It is only an Inspiration that is inspired." (53:4) i.e. he only conveys to the people what he was commanded to convey, in its entirety without additions or deletions. (Tafseer ibn Katheer)

The Arabic word used here, yantiqu, means specifically to speak. There is a difference of opinion as to whether these verses refer just to the Qur'an, or to everything the Prophet spoke. Even if they refer to the Qur'an, we know that Prophet did not just recite Qur'anic ayaat, but spoke other than that in matters of deen too, gave commands, explanations etc, the hikmah (will be mentioned later on), as ordered and taught to Him by Allah, Glorified and Exalted be He.

To be continued in shaa Allah...

format_quote Originally Posted by volvic

If the Quran (as Allah declares it) is " complete", "clear", "detailed" and "perfect" and if it is the ultimate guidance from Allah, then why do follow what hadith collections tell us

This is an argument that hadeeth rejectors often use. It has been pointed out already, that the Qur'an clearly does not give details of how many rakats to pray, how much zakat to give, what to say in each rakat, and the explanation of those verses passages has been given in post number 8.

Firstly, if one claims as the very basis of one's faith and 1st pillar of Islam on which everything else stands, that there's no God but Allah and that Muhammad (peace, blessings and salutations of Allah be on him) is the messenger of Allah, but then rejects everything that Messenger said and did and commanded, how much of an acceptance is that?

Secondly, Qur'anists insist that the Qur'an is a fully detailed explanation of everything, directly, in and of itself, without any need to refer to any external or complimentary sources. But you see Qur'anists asking each other what words they personally use for even the most important of fundamentals, such as the shahaadah. If the Qur'an was a directly fully detailed explanation of absolutely everything, without need to consult any other source, then these things should be clearly detailed in the Qur'an and there should be no need to ask anyone. But Qur'anists consult each other and accept what others say, but will not accept what the Prophet (peace, blessings and salutations of Allah be on him) said and did (as Allah taught him) and the sahaabah (may Allah be pleased with them) and their students transmitted and practiced and recorded, and in actuality, they are implying that they are better than the prophet (peace, blessings and salutations of Allah be on him) or know more than him, or that he (peace, blessings and salutations of Allah be on him) (and by default, Allah) was wrong. We seek refuge in Allah from that. Nobody knows better than he to whom the Qur'an as revealed, and He who revealed it him and taught him the sunnah.

Their asking each other in this manner proves that although they use the verses that say the Qur'an is fully detailed, to mean no external source is required, their practice shows that they know that this isn't the case, and they know that they are misinterpreting the verse. It is against the logic they profess, and against these ayaat, amongst others:

It is not for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter, that they should [thereafter] have any choice about their affair. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has certainly strayed into clear error. (33:36)

But no, by your Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction. (4:65)

Qur'anists do not even agree on how many times a day to pray. Some believe you should pray two times, others believe three times, some believe five times. When you cannot agree on one of the most important and basic fundamentals, and there is no clear unequivocal answer, something is very wrong. That is just the tip of the iceberg of that is Qur'anism, because they reject the sunnah of the Prophet (peace, blessings and salutations of Allah be on him) as recorded in the hadeeth, and literally do what feels right to them personally, not what Allah and his prophet (peace, blessings and salutations of Allah be on him) taught and commanded.

Thirdly, sometimes Qur'anists say they know they must believe in the the sunnah but don't trust hadeeth. Then, simply, they should bring what sources of the Prophets sayings thye have that are more accurately and transparently recorded than the hadeeth. From the Qur'an, we know that sunnah external to the Qur'an exists (as will be shown later), so if it's not in the hadeeth, they should just show where it is outside of the Qur'an.

Once you accept the status of the sunnah of the Prophet (peace, blessings and salutations of Allah be on him) as a necessary and non-negotiable part of Islam, then we can move on to discuss it's preservation in hadeeth, and the recording, authenticity etc. No other literature of the era is preserved so accurately and transparently, and no mans' every saying, deed, command has been recorded in such detail. We know who the Prophet (peace, blessings and salutations of Allah be on him) said it to, who that person taught it to, biographies of people in the chain of transmission such that it is even known who had a weak memory etc, so we know which are not so strong. Allah said in the Qur'an that we have in the Prophet (peace, blessings and salutations of Allah be on him) a beautiful pattern to follow, and it is part of Allah's blessing to us that this rich and detailed source, with a method of scrutiny, is available to us. If we were meant to use our own reasoning, printed books would have been sent down with no need for a teacher. Not only did Allah ensure there was a teacher, but also that his sunnah was preserved for us so that we could follow his example. That verse applies now, then and always.

You cannot be a Qur'anist and follow the Qur'an properly. The two are mutually exclusive. A better term is sunnah or hadeeth rejector.

As much as Qur'anists may like to think that their beliefs are logical, they are not quite as logical as they like to think, and are a misplaced and self-contradictory set of beliefs, as shown, using both the Qur'an itself, and the logic they like to profess.

To be continued in shaa Allah..

Sahih International
Certainly did Allah confer [great] favor upon the believers when He sent among them a Messenger from themselves, reciting to them His verses and purifying them and teaching them the Book and wisdom, although they had been before in manifest error. (3:164)

The Prophet (may Allah's peace, blessings and salutations be upon him) is specifically referred to as "reciting to them His verses" and also, "teaching them the book". This implies two separate roles that the Prophet (may Allah's peace, blessings and salutations be upon him) fulfilled, otherwise the passage would be redundant. It shows that not only did the Prophet (may Allah's peace, blessings and salutations be upon him) receive the revelations from Angel Jibreel (alayhissalaam) and recite the verses to the Muslims, but he also taught and explained to them the meaning of those revelations/verses.

Reciting and teaching cannot mean the same things, as they are mentioned separately.

If teaching meant the reading out aloud of the Qur'an, making people commit it to memory, there was no need to specify it as something different to recitation.

Any teacher teaching something, does not simply make people commit a given text to memory, but explains what is in it, it's context, how to apply it, it's background etc.

Teaching evidently means therefore, explanation and interpretation of the Qur'anic verses, and the exposition of their meaning, wisdom, and commands.

Once it is established that the Prophet (may Allah's peace, blessings and salutations be upon him) is a teacher and explainer of the Qur'an, we must look at the ways in which the Prophet (may Allah's peace, blessings and salutations be upon him) explained the Qur'an:

• He explained the meanings of words whose meanings were ambiguous for different reasons. Sometimes the companions did not understand the context or meanings of certain words, so he explained it to them (e.g. Surah al-An'aam 82).
• He corrected the misunderstandings of his companions or others, as in the "shortening one's prayers in case in fear of attack" verse (an-Nisaa 101).
• He qualified the unrestricted, and particularised the general, and explained how verses were to be applied. Eg despite Surah al-Maaidah, ayah 38, he explained that not every thief is to have their hand cut off. (incidentally would hadeeth rejectors cut off the hand of every thief?). He also explained that for al-An'aam 145 (mentioned above) and al-Maaidah 3, there are exceptions, and two types of carrion are allowed (fish and locust) as are two types of blood (liver and spleen). Without the prophet explaining these verses, Muslims would be denying themselves some of the good things Allah has in fact, made lawful for them. Similarly, in addition to al-An'aam 145, the Messenger has prohibited other types of food, such as the flesh of donkey, which was not mentioned by Allah in the verse.
• He clarified which verses are abrogated, such as an-Nisaa 15.
• He gave detail to the non-detailed commands in the Qur'an. So the Qur'an tells us to pray, but the prophet taught us how to implement that, i.e. how to pray.
• He made statements whose meanings were similar to verses in the Qur'an, which emphasised and further clarified the points in the Qur'an.
• He supplied details of incidents that are mentioned in the Quran with not much details, such as the incident mentioned in Surah al-Burooj.

Amongst many other ways of explaining the Qur'an.

We can see that Allah obliged the Prophet (may Allah's peace, blessings and salutations be upon him) to explain the Qur'an and to expound the meanings of His words... Therefore it is absolutely necessary for anyone who interprets the Qur'an to base his interpretation upon what has been narrated of it's interpretation by the Messenger (may Allah's peace, blessings and salutations be upon him), as recorded in the authentic hadeeth, and not to deviate from it and [instead] turn to personal judgement by looking at the Arabic wording to determine it's meaning and application.

Extracted and adapted from: The Authority and Importance of the Sunnah, by Jamaal al-Din M. Zarabozo, Al-Basheer publications, Denver, 2000

How can we not refer to the records of one who knew it better than anyone, the one who it was revealed to, and instead refer to our own desires and make up our own erroneous explanations and interpretations?

To be continued in shaa Allah...

The Qur'an says, on many many occasions, obey Allah and obey the Messenger (may the peace, blessings and salutations of Allah be on him).

You will agree with me that not one word or one letter of the Qur'an is the Prophet's own (may the peace, blessings and salutations of Allah be on him) and that all of it is from the word of Allah. To obey the Prophet, you need to obey those words the Prophet spoke himself, those actions he did, those explanations he gave, even if they are not in the Qur'an, as outlined above, along with the Qur'an. On some occasions the Qur'an tells us to obey the messenger (may the peace, blessings and salutations of Allah be on him) without mentioning Allah, because if you obey the messenger then by default you obey the one who taught and ordered him. But if you disobey him, even if by disregarding what he said outside of the Qur'an, then by default you disobey the One Who taught him:

And establish prayer and give zakah and obey the Messenger - that you may receive mercy. (24:56)

He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah ; but those who turn away - We have not sent you over them as a guardian. (4:80)

In this verse, Allah states clearly that obedience to the Messenger is nothing less than obedience to Allah. It proves that any command from the Prophet actually originated with Allah. Most of those commands are recorded in the hadeeth.

Also, some verses tell us that obedience to the Prophet does not mean just with what he came with of the Qur'an, and that obedience to him has sources external to the Qur'an, that must be followed as well:

And when it is said to them, "Come to what Allah has revealed and to the Messenger," you see the hypocrites turning away from you in aversion. (4:61)

Come to what Allah has revealed, and to the Messenger. In other words, following only the Qur'an is not enough. Following only the prophets commands mentioned in the Qur'an is not enough. You must obey his commands that are not in the Qur'an too (which is the majority of them), those that are recorded in the hadeeth.

The passage continues:

And We did not send any messenger except to be obeyed by permission of Allah . And if, when they wronged themselves, they had come to you, [O Muhammad], and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Accepting of repentance and Merciful.

But no, by your Lord, they will not believe, until they make you [O Muhammad] judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against your decisions, but accept them with full submission. (4:64-65)

Indeed, verse 65 above tells us that accepting the Prophet's rulings and decisions is part of our very faith, part of our imaan. It is noticeable that Allah begins the verse by swearing by the Lord of the Prophet, and this is much more greater and serious than any of the other types of swearing that Allah has used in the Qur'an, such as the stars, the sky, the dawn, the morning light etc. And it is after this great swearing that Allah informs the believers that it is necessary for them to completely accept the authority of the Prophet .

"With clear proofs and writings; and We have revealed unto thee the Remembrance that thou mayst explain to mankind that which hath been revealed for them, and that haply they may reflect. " (16:44)

That explanation of the Qur'an by the Prophet (peace be upon him) is recorded in the hadeeth. So where the command to pray is given, one will not find details of how many units for each prayer in the Qur'an. That is explained by the Prophet (peace be upon him) as taught by Allah, and the explanation preserved in the hadeeth.

This duty of the Prophet (peace be upon him) has been stated in 16:43-44 especially to show the wisdom of sending a man as a Messenger, for, otherwise the Book could have been sent through the angels or could have been printed and sent directly to each human. But in this way, that purpose for which Allah in His Wisdom and Bounty and Providence designed to send the Book could not have been served. For, that purpose demanded that the Book should be brought by a perfect man, who should present it piece by piece, explain its meaning, remove any difficulties and doubts, answer objections, and should guide those who believed in it in every aspect of life and set before them his own excellent pattern of life. Then he should train them individually and collectively on the principles of the Book; so as to make them a model society for the rest of mankind.

16:44 shows that the view that the Book should be accepted without any exposition of it from the Prophet (peace be upon him) and using one's own independent reasoning instead, cannot be correct if Allah says that the Prophet is the teacher and explainer of the book.

Allah tells us that the Prophet (may the peace, blessings and salutations of Allah be on him) is the example for us to follow:

Indeed in the Messenger of Allah (Muhammad SAW) you have a good example for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah much. (33:21)

See this verse also:

O you who believe, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result. (4:59)

The companions of the Prophet and later scholars have understood "refer it to Allah", to mean, "refer it to the book of Allah." And referring the matter to the Messenger of Allah, means to refer it directly to him in his lifetime, and to his sunnah (as recorded in the hadeeth) after his death. Note that the two, the book of Allah, and the sunnah of His Messenger (may the peace, blessings and salutations of Allah be on him), are placed together here, and the verse does not say "refer it to Allah and then to the Messenger", nor does it say, "refer it to Allah, and if you do not find the answer there, then refer it to the Messenger". The two (Qur'an and sunnah) come together, hand in hand.

There are many such verses where Allah commands obedience to Himself and His prophet (may the peace, blessings and salutations of Allah be on him), and many of those begin, "O you who believe". This means that the command is not just restricted to the Prophet's lifetime, or to his companions. Instead, the command is addressed to everyone who claims to be a believer - then, now, and always.

Therefore to reject the hadeeth (which contain the Prophets commands), mean you go directly against the verses that tell you to obey Allah and the Prophet, that tell you to obey the Prophet, and as the Qur'an states, this has implications for our very faith: "if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day", "But no, by your Lord, they will not believe", "but those who turn away".

Very serious.

To be continued in shaa Allah..

The Prophet (may the peace, blessings and salutations of Allah be on him) also taught something else, along with the Book:

Just as We have sent among you a messenger from yourselves reciting to you Our verses and purifying you and teaching you the Book and wisdom and teaching you that which you did not know. (2:151)

"The Messenger also takes them away from the darkness (of disbelief) to the light (of faith) and teaches them the Book, the Qur'an, and the Hikmah (i.e., the wisdom), which is his Sunnah. He also teaches them what they knew not." (Tafseer ibn Katheer 2:151)

And do not take the verses of Allah in jest. And remember the favor of Allah upon you and what has been revealed to you of the Book and wisdom by which He instructs you. And fear Allah (2:231 part)

Certainly did Allah confer [great] favor upon the believers when He sent among them a Messenger from themselves, reciting to them His verses and purifying them and teaching them the Book and wisdom, although they had been before in manifest error. (3:164)

And Allah has revealed to you the Book and wisdom and has taught you that which you did not know. (4:113)

It is clear here that Allah has taught and revealed to us not just one thing, but two separate things that go together. The Arabic words used are kitaab (book) and hikmah (literal meaning is wisdom). Nowhere in the Qur'an has the word Hikmah been used for the Qur'an, or the word kitaab used for the hikmah, and the particle "and" is placed between them, which shows us they are two distinct entities. So, what else did Allah reveal to the Prophet (may the peace, blessings and salutations of Allah be on him) apart from the Book? It can only be the sunnah (outside of the Qur'an as proven). It is part of the blessing on the believers that the Prophet (may the peace, blessings and salutations of Allah be on him) taught them both the book (Qur'an) and the hikmah (sunnah).

In summary:

• Allah says in the Qur'an that not following the Messenger on a command which wasn't in the Qur'an, is classed as not following the Messenger, and turning back on one's heels, and being misguided. It is also not following Allah as the command originated with Allah.
• Whatever the Prophet spoke in matters of the deen (outside of the Qur'an) is inspired to him by Allah.
• The Qur'an is Allahs word without a word from the Prophet, so to obey the Prophet is to obey the Prophets words, which the Qur'an isn't. The authentic ahadeeth are.
• Not obeying the Prophets words is not obeying the words of the One who taught him (i.e. Allah).
• In the Qur'an, Allah tells the Prophet (may the peace, blessings and salutations of Allah be on him) to explain the Qur'an to us, explanations which aren't in the Qur'an as the Qur'an isn't the Prophets word. These explanations are recorded in the authentic ahadeeth.
• Allah clearly states that He revealed the book and the wisdom. The wisdom is not the book, so can only be the sunnah (which is recorded and preserved in the authentic ahadeeth).

The only way you can obey the messenger (sallallahu alayhi wa sallam) is by obeying what he said and did, which is recorded in the ahadeeth. If someone does not believe in the ahadeeth and reject them, then they are rejecting Allah's command in the Qur'aan (mentioned in numerous Qur'anic verses) and thus, have, in reality, rejected the Qur'aan too. The sunnah was taught to the Prophet by Allah, to teach people, so rejection of those teachings, is actually rejection of what Allah taught, and therefore rebellion against Allah and his Prophet (may Allah's peace, blessings and salutations be upon him). It is also following one's personal whims and desires, instead of following the Prophets explanations. As has been shown with evidence from the Qur'an in previous posts, this concept of Qur'anism or rejection of the sunnah as recorded in the hadeeth, has huge implications for the validity of one's faith. May Allah save us all from that and keep us firm on the straight path of the Qur'an and authentic sunnah, ameen.

The Quran says Idle/Vain speech is to be Avoided,

Music comes under Idle/Vain speech, this is proven by the understanding of the Sahaba the best generation of Muslims.

secondly there are Numerous Authentic Ahadith Explicitely prohibiting Music.

third by no means Least,

Hadith Rejectors are Non-Muslims. They are out of the fold of Islam.

the Ayaat of the Quran was transmitted to us via Authentic ahadeeth, by the same Sahaba who narrated to us the sayings of the Prophet

to accept one and reject the other is Absurd.

Allah ta'ala tells us to Obey him (Allah ta'ala) AND the Messenger

if one rejects the Hadith, one cannot do the latter.

several Ayaat are made redundant by Hadith rejectors (Kufr) for example ...

Surah Al-Hashr : Ayah 7
----------------------------
"What Allah gave as booty (Fai') to His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) from the people of the townships, - it is for Allah, His Messenger (Muhammad SAW), the kindred (of Messenger Muhammad SAW), the orphans, Al-Masakin (the poor), and the wayfarer, in order that it may not become a fortune used by the rich among you. And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it) , and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Severe in punishment."

as the Quran is the speech of Allah ta'ala, and not the Mesenger :saw:, Hadith rejectors can in no way follow this ayaat, several other examples are available. Including the command to follow the example of the Prophet :saw:, praying Salaah and various other Issues, none of which can be followed/implemented if one is a Hadith Rejector.

in short to Reject authentic Ahadith is Kufr, takes one out of Islam.

Nauzubillah min zaliq

Sounds as orthadox as it gets.

I apolagise.

...to be fair we only have to account for ourselves within the circle of people we know.

...and what we talk about often reflects in them..

Those that invent lies against Allah swt do nothing but condemn themselves.

The book and its similar will protect themselves for as long as Allah swt wishes.

Sorry about my ranting.

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.

Seems like for most the sunnah a moderate path of neither reward or punishment us used for abstaining.

Brother M.I.A,

The term sunnah, which you are referring to, as per the first paragraph of brother Muhammad's post, is actions which the prophet did which aren't compulsory. But I am wondering if you have read the next paragraph, where the Islamic source of law and guidance that goes together with the Qur'an, is called the sunnah. The term sunnah, has different meanings, depending on which discipline is being referred to, and we have to be clear about what it means when someone uses the term i.e. which of it's meanings they are referring to - not realising these different meanings, can mean one has huge misunderstandings, as well as it being a potential disaster for one's faith. E.g. someone may only know one usage of term sunnah, and think it means only non-compulsory things, such as fasting on Mondays and Thursdays, and so may erroneously come to the conclusion that the prophet's sunnah is optional and doesn't have to be followed, not realising that sunnah used in that way, not referring to a specific act, actually means something different.

The definition of the term sunnah, as being used in this particular thread, from an Islamic legal theory perspective, is: "Whatever comes from the Prophet , other than the Quran itself, in the form of his speech, actions and tacit approvals." His speech includes, what he commanded, recommended, permitted, disapproved, or forbade. .

All the Prophets had a sunnah that people had to follow. The prophets were sent by Allah to be role models and examples for human beings, showing us practically how to put the guidance they were sent with into practice in our daily lives, explaining the scriptures, warning against wrong-doing, giving good tidings, and giving additional legislation from Allah. This was inspired and instructed by Allah to them - they didn't make it up. And it went together with, and had to be followed along with, any scripture that Allah gave then, as a mandatory source of law for the faith. Even previous prophets sunnah was compulsory for their followers to follow. Jesus (Isa, peace be upon him) had a sunnah that people should follow:
And when Jesus brought clear proofs, he said, "I have come to you with wisdom and to make clear to you some of that over which you differ, so fear Allah and obey me.(43:63)
Then We sent following their footsteps Our messengers and followed [them] with Jesus, the son of Mary, and gave him the Injeel... (57:27, part)
We know that Allah gave Jesus (alyhissalaam) the Injeel, which was Allah's words, so obeying the Prophet meant listening to him explaining Allah's words, and following whatever else he commanded in respect to the deen as inspired by Allah.

So in this thread, the term sunnah doesn't mean e.g. fard, wajib, sunnah ( ie specific acts which might be compulsory, recommended, permissibe etc), but it refers to a source of evidence and source of law. As the Qur'an is a source of law and source of evidence, so the Sunnah of the Prophet (what the prophet taught along with the Quran, to explain it and complement it) is also mandatory source of law and evidence, that goes hand in hand with the Qur'an, and to reject it is tantamount to rejecting the Prophet, and more.

So this term sunnah, used with the above meaning, is an authority in Islamic law, that goes together with the Qur'an, as we have been commanded to obey the Prophet , follow his example, and been told by Allah that the Prophet is our teacher, and that the Prophet has explained the Book to us. If we reject the sunnah, and reject everything the prophet said and did, then that means when we say we declare that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, that that declaration has not gone past our throats, and it means we go against the Quran where Allah has told the Prophet to teach us, to explain the Quran to us, and told us that we must obey him and follow him. Therefore in rejecting the sunnah, we actually reject part of the Qur'an. Also, the sunnah was divinely inspired to the Prophet by Allah, so if someone rejects the sunnah, they are rejecting what has come from Allah, and this is rebellion against Allah and his prophet . In essence, it can completely nullify our faith, and the scholars agree that such a person has left Islam.

The Prophets Sunnah is recorded in the authentic hadeeth, and this is compulsory, obligatory, fard, mandatory, a must, to follow. This is a source of law that goes together hand in hand with the Qur'an, and the Prophet told us that if we stick to the Quran and sunnah we will not go astray, but if we let go of any of them, we will, as alluded to above.

Sounds as orthadox as it gets.

This is not orthodox, this is a fundamental and foundational part of Islam, without which there is no Islam, no matter how much someone may delude themselves in to thinking it is. The prophet , his companions (may Allah be pleased with him), all the early generations of Muslims, and the main body of Muslims nowadays, all follow the Quran and sunnah, as their two sources of law.

May Allah save us from the rejection of the sunnah, and hence from going astray, ameen.

We are Obligated and Required to follow the Ahadith cause Allah Azzawajal tells us to follow the Example of the messenger, to listen to and Obey him,

Rejecting authentic Ahadith is Kufr

Also it is impossible to follow several Ayaat of the Qur'an of one rejects Ahadith

The Shariah revealed at the Time of Muhammad is till Qiyama,

There will be no prophet or messenger after him and no new Shariah

Alcohol and Gambling has always remained Haraam since its prohibition,