Debate: Why do some people completely reject hadith?

In my humble opinion, I feel as the argument concerning the hadeeth being false is getting weaker by the minute and each post is just going around in circles...The same issues which have already been discussed keep arising...The brother has already provided that link as above and I dont think there is any point leaving this to remain open..InshAllah if any clever clogs does come to think up of any 'argument' or 'sufficent' proof that hadeeth are false then take it up with the breda via Pm inshAllah
Peace x

format_quote Originally Posted by M H Kahn

A Muslim mus believe that anything that contradicts the Quran is not Hadith.

Brother, I dont intend to get personal, but can you please tell me if you have any knowledge in the Hadith Sciences? As in do you have any Ijaazah? If so, from what university and who were your teachers?

If not, then its best that you dont say things about Hadith that you have no knowledge of. A reminder to myself first and foremost, and then to everyone else.

Hadiths and the Quran cannot contradict each other as a rule. Therefore, if something seems contradictory there are other interpretations that the Hadith Science scholors can work out.

format_quote Originally Posted by Alpha Dude

Anyone care to speculate?

most of whom i met are from Pakistan and India....

i might be wrong, but most are from there.

i dunno why

Yano when i read this, people allowing hadeeth I was real shock, its all new to meh..Allah guide them people!..Peace and Ameen x

i really dont know brother, but it is more in the eastern part of Asia

• A hadîth can be defined as a reported statement, action, or tacit approval of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) as well as anything thas been reported about his physical description and character.

• We know the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace be upon him) by way of the hadîth. The word “sunnah” literally means a set of practices or a mode of behavior. Like the Qur’ân, the Sunnah is revelation that Allah revealed to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), and like the Qur’ân, it has been meticulously preserved. However, unlike the Qur’ân, it is not the direct, literal word of Allah.

• It is obligatory for Muslims to follow the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace be upon him). First of all, it is revelation from Allah who says about His Prophet Muhammad: “He does not speak of his own desire. It is no less than inspiration sent down to him.” [Sûrah al-Najm:3]

• Moreover, Allah orders the believers to obey the Messenger. Allah says: “Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger.” [Sûrah al-Nisâ':59]

• One of the reasons that Allah sent human Messengers to mankind is so they could be living, practical examples of how people should submit to Allah and worship Him. Allah says: “You have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in Allah's praise.” [Sûrah al-Ahzâb:21]

www.islamtoday.com

thanks Halima

the Egyptian scientist, who later claimed himself to be a prophet without book.

The delclaration of faith states that one must tesitfy that he/she believes that Allah is one and Muhammed is his last messnger and servant so how does that one work out? Any Muslim should realise that this man is just chatting hobogoblish and ignore him right? Peace x

format_quote Originally Posted by M H Kahn

Corrupt Hadiths have corrupted Islam from a monotheist religion to a polytheist one where now the prophet, graves of good people and hypocrite saints are also worshipped alongside the woprship of Allah.

Ellaborate on your perspective of a 'corrupt hadith'
Yes the second point is blatently SHIRK, and I am sure no hadith promotes such a message Astaghfirullah it is blatently shown in the Quran how it is a the worse sin and how Allah dislikes it!

Peace x

please keep this thread open, there is alot of what i am learning here.

thanks

Some people reject hadith because they are doubtful

I know the sahihs are very authentic but there are some traditions that, well, raise questions.

And there always is the question of distortion to the hadith.

quoted from one of the members on MyIslamWeb.com

same argument of rejecting the hadith as well

Salam,

It is the duty of every soul to get the knowldge before rejecting or accepting the truth.

Many among us dont study Quran as it is supposed to be, neither they study Hadees in depth.

I can post a hadees a day which you may find weird, contradciting to quran, contradicting to the chracter of our beloved Rasool allah (Apbuh), and non-ethical.

ofourse there are very valid and valuable Ahadees in the same books.

Mixture of truth with false is the key to misguide anyone, just like Bible.

If I come to you drunk, invite you to a night club, you will sure know that i am not a person you wanna hang around. But if i change my appearance, keep a beard, hold a rosary in my hand, invite you to masjid, sure you will think I am a religious person. To misguide you I will be a stupid person to invite you to nightclub, isnt it?

And if I invite you to masjid that doesnot mean i am the most haonorable, respectable and guided person who is doing this under the will of Allah Subhana wa taala?

All praise is due to Allah,alone.

http://www.myislamweb.com/forum/show...?t=4094&page=4

Thread re-opened.

format_quote Originally Posted by ameen

format_quote Originally Posted by Ähmed

That is your [mis]interpretation. The Quran preaches prayer and since according to your [mis]interpretation that is ALL that the Prophet preached, one can pray in any way he likes, because the Quran does not mention how to pray.

actually, if you read the Qur'an, you will find that the Qur'an actually does mention the important aspects of Salah, including the prostration, the bowing, the standing, qiblah, wudhu etc. So No - a person cannot just pray 'any way they like' - as they must be fulfilling these criteria for prayer mentioned in the Qur'an. Similarly, the manner of performing hajj is also outlined in the Qur'an. Furthermore, the manner of Salah is more easily and accurately passed on through generations, than are the words recorded in the hadith, because they were mostly passed on by 'mouth' - so their accuracy deteriorates throughout the decades.

Using the Qur'an tell me how mank rak'ah in each salat, what must be recited in salah, how do we shorten our salat when travelling?

The Quran tells you to cut off the hand of the theif. Will you cut it off of children? An insane man? Or a person that was starving to death so he had to steal food? The Quran mentions some rulings regarding Prayer, i.e shortening of it when traveling but it does not tell you HOW this is to be done. The same applies to fasting and the same applies to Zakat.

Your problem is that you dont understand exactly what the Ahadith are and the rigorous system by which they are classified. Hadith rejectors are simply laymen who come across a hadith that they dont understand and thus they reject it because it doesnt make any sense to them.

Tell me what is the point of mentioning the Quran and then the Hikmah? If the Quran was the only thing to be followed, it would have been enough for Allah to have said "He has sent down to you the Book whereby he instructs you".

again if you look in the Qur'an, you will find that Allah refers to the Qur'an as being a Book full with Wisdom and Guidance. So it is no surprise that Allah refers to the Revelation as 'wisdom' being sent down to the Prophet:


"These are the revelations that we recite to you, providing a message full of wisdom." (3:58)


Do you see just how clear this verse is? It is clearly referring to THE QUR'AN - as being full with 'wisdom' - from the All-Wise. So when Allah says '...revealed to you the Book and wisdom' - it is referring to the Qur'anic wisdom from Allah.

Its clear but it doesnt prove your point in the least.

53:3 Nor does he speak of (his own) desire.

53: 4. It is only an Inspiration that is inspired.

These verses prove that whatever the Prophet said was an inspiration from Allah. Or are you saying that when the Prophet spoke he spoke only the Quran and nothing else?!

16:44 And We have also sent down unto you the reminder, that you may tubayyina (EXPLAIN CLEARLY) to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought.

The verse above makes it clear that there is not only the revelation (Quran) but there are also explanations that the Prophet has to give! These are the Ahadith. If there was no need for the Quran to be explained, this Book would have been revealed upon a mountain and man could have taken and understood in any which he desired. This is the Divine Wisdom behind sending a Prophet, so that men can see and learn from him the Book of Allah. This one verse refutes the claims of the Hadith rejectors that the Quran is all we need and proves that the role of the Prophet was not only to convey the message but to explain it as well.

The hadith were written down at the time of the Prophet as well. Ali r.a. asked the Prophet if he be allowed to write down his sayings that are other than the Quran and the Prophet gave him permission and this he and others wrote it down just like the Quran was written down.

The truth remains that most, if not ALL of the hadith were NOT WRITTEN or compiled during the time of the Prophet. So the hadith which are followed by Muslims today were not in the form they are in today, nor do they have any authority from the Prophet, or from Allah, to be a source of Divine Guidance or Law alongside the Qur'an.

You fail to comment on what was provided and you repeat your erroneous claim again! The link
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...ection=Hadeeth
put forth the myths that hadith rejectors have and it refuted them one by one in detail. I suggest you read that and reply to that instead of repeating your erroneous claim again.

Imam Bukhari was NOT the first person to write down the Ahadith or compile them.

I know that he is not the first compiler of hadith. I used him as an example because most Muslims take his collection of hadith to be the most reliable hadith-collection available. So I pointed out that EVEN HIS collection, which is considered most reliable, was compiled OVER TWO HUNDRED years after the Prophet died. This is easily verified just by looking at Imam Bukhari's date of birth (two hundred years after Prophet's death) !

You are again just simply repeating your erroneuos claims! This was responded to in my last response. Here it is again. Read it this time:

format_quote Originally Posted by kadafi

Myth #1 Ahadeeth were written 200 years after the Prophet (Peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)

This misconception is based on the hadeeth mentioned in Saheeh Muslim (Second authenthic Hadeeth collection):

It was narrated from Abu Sa’eed al-Khudri that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: Do not write anything from me; whoever has written anything from me other than the Qur’aan, let him erase it and narrate from me, for there is nothing wrong with that. (Narrated by Muslim, al-Zuhd wa’l-Raqaa’iq, 5326)

Those who use this hadeeth and argue that no ahadeeth were written are ignorant of the historical temporary prohibition of this statement. The temporary prohibition was meant as a precautionary step to ensure the correctness of the word of Allaah as distinguished from the words of the Prophet himself, as both came from the lips of the Prophet. This is one view and several other views are mentioned in the commentary on Saheeh Muslim by Imaam Al-Nawawi (May Allaah have mercy on him)


Al-Nawawi said in his commentary on Saheeh Muslim:

Al-Qaadi said: there were many disputes among the Sahaabah and Taabi’een concerning the writing down of knowledge. Many of them regarded this as being makrooh, but most of them regarded it as permissible. This dispute is no longer an issue.

They differed as to the meaning of this hadeeth which says that it is forbidden. It was said that this pertained to one who was sure of his memory, and there was the fear that he may rely upon what he had written if he wrote it down; the ahaadeeth which say that it is permissible to write things down is to be interpreted as referring to the one whose memory is not reliable, such as the hadeeth, “Write it down for Abu Shaah”; or the hadeeth of the saheefah of ‘Alee (may Allaah be pleased with him); the hadeeth of the book of ‘Amr ibn Hazm, which contains laws on inheritance, sunnahs and diyaat (blood money); the hadeeth about writing down charity, and the minimum amounts at which zakaah becomes obligatory (nisaab), with which Abu Bakr sent Anas (may Allaah be pleased with him) to Bahrain; the hadeeth of Abu Hurayrah which says that Ibn ‘Amr ibn al-‘Aas used to ; write things down but he (Abu Hurayrah) did not write things down, and other ahaadeeth. And it was said that the hadeeth forbidding writing down ahaadeeth was abrogated by these ahaadeeth.

The prohibition was in effect when there was the fear that (the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) might be mixed with the Qur’aan. When that danger was no longer present, permission was given to write down (ahaadeeth). And it was said that the prohibition mentioned in the hadeeth referred to writing ahaadeeth on the same page as Qur’aan, lest they become mixed and thus the reader would be confused when looking at this page. And Allaah knows best.

The hadeeth of Abu Shaah was narrated by al-Bukhaari from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him), who said:
‘When Allaah granted His Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) victory over Makkah, he stood before the people and praised and glorified Allaah, then he said: “Allaah protected Makkah from the elephant and has given authority to His Messenger and the believers over it, so fighting was forbidden for anyone before me, and was made permissible for me for part of a day, and it will not be permissible for anyone after me. Its game should not be chased, its thorny bushes should not be uprooted, and picking up its fallen things is not allowed except for one who makes public announcement for it, and he whose relative is murdered has the option either to accept a compensation for it or to retaliate.” Al-‘Abbas said, “Except Al-Idhkhir (a kind of plant), for we use it in our graves and houses.” The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “Except Al-Idhkhir.” Abu Shaah, a Yemeni, stood up and said, “O Messenger of Allaah! Get it written for me.” The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “Write it for Abu Shaah.” (al-Luqatah, 2254)

Ibn Hajar said: What may be understood from the story of Abu Shaah (“Write it for Abu Shaah”) is that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) gave permission for hadeeth to be written down from him.

This contradicts the hadeeth of Abu Sa’eed al-Khudri, which says that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, ‘Do not write down anything from me except the Qur’aan.’ (Narrated by Muslim).

The two may be reconciled by noting that the prohibition applied only to the time when the Qur’aan was being revealed, lest it be confused with something else, and that permission was given at other times; or that the prohibition applied only to writing down things other than Qur’aan with the Qur’aan on one thing, and that permission was given to write them separately; of that the prohibition came first and the permission abrogated that, when there was no longer any fear of confusion. This is most likely to be the case.

It was said that the prohibition applied only to those whom it was feared would depend on the writing and not memorize things, and that permission was given for those from whom such a thing was not feared.

The scholars said: a group of the Sahaabah and Taabi’een regarded it as makrooh to write down the hadeeth and they regarded it as mustahabb to learn it from them by heart, as they had learned it. But when people were no longer able to strive so hard (in memorizing) and the scholars feared that knowledge might be lost, they compiled it in books.”
There are countless instructions from the Prophet instructing his companions to write down some ahadeeth.

One of the Ansaar (The Helpers) asked the Prophet if there was another way to preserve ahadeeth as he sometimes forgets them. The Prophet replied:

Seek help from your right hand, and pointed out to a writing. (Tirmidhi)

Raafi ibn Khadij (May Allaah be pleased with him) said:

I said to the Prophet that we hear from you many things, should we write them down?” He replied: You may write. There is no harm. (Tadreeb ar Raawi)

Anas (may Allaah be pleased with him) narrates that the Prophet said:

Preserve knowledge by writing. (At-Tabari Jaami ul Bayaan)

Abu Raafi (may Allaah be pleased with him) sought permission from the Prophet to write ahadeeth and the Prophet granted him that permission (Tirmidhi)

Salma (student of Ibn Abbaas) says:

I saw some small wooden boards with Abdullaah Ibn Abbaas. He was writing on them some reports of the acts of the Prophet which he acquired from Abu Raafi’. (Tabaqaat Ibn Sa’d)

Abdullaah ibn Amr ibn al-Aas (May Allaah be pleased with him) reports that the Prophet said to him:

Preserve Knowledge

Abdullaah then asked,

how should it be preserved?

The Prophet replied,

by writing it.
(Mustadrik Haakim; Jaami ul Bayaan)

In another report, he says,

I came to the Prophet and told him, I want to narrate your ahadeeth. So, I want to take assistance of my handwriting besides my heart. Do you deem it fit for me?’

The Prophet replied,

If it is my hadeeth you may seek help from your hand besides your heart. (Daarimi)

He also says:

I used to write whatever I heard from the Prophet and wanted to learn it by heart. Some people of the Quraysh dissuaded me and said,
Do you write everything you hear from the Prophet, while he is a human being and sometimes he may be in anger as any other human beings may be? (Abu Dawood)

After Abdullaah ibn Amr conveyed their opinion to the Prophet, the Prophet replied by pointing to his lips and said:

I swear by the One in whose hands is the soul of Muhammad: nothing comes out from these two (lips) except truth(haqq). So, do write. (Abu Dawood; Tabaqaat ibn Sa’d; Mustadrik ul Haakim)

These narrations attest that ahadeeth were written during the era of the Prophet.

I will list here the prominent compilations written in the first and second century, some written by the sahabas (the Prophet’s companions), their students (taabi’een), and the students of the taabi’een (tabaa'at-taabi'een).

Some of the compilations during the era of the Prophet:

The Scripts of Abu Hurairah

Hasan ibn Amr reports that once:

Abu Hurairah took him to his home and showed him “many books” containing the ahadeeth of the Prophet. (Jaami’ Bayaan-ul-‘Ilm; Fath-ul-Baari)

The Script of Abdullaahi ibn Amr

Mujahid, his student, said

I went to Abdullaah ibn Amr and took in hand a script placed beneath his cushion. He stopped me. I said, You never save anything from me. He replied:

This is the Saadiqah (the Script of Truth). It is what I heard from the Prophet. No other narrator intervenes between him and myself. If this script, the Book of Allaah, and wahaz (his agricultural land) are secured for me, I would never care about the rest of the world. (Jaami’ Bayaan-ul-‘Ilm)

The Script of Anas

Sa’eed ibn Hilal, one of his students, says:

When we insisted upon Anas (may Allaah be pleased with him) he would bring to us some notebooks and say, These are what I have heard and written from the Prophet, after which I have presented them to the Prophet for confirmation. (Mustadrik Haakim)

The Script of Alee

Alee said:

I have not written anything from the Prophet except the Qur’aan and what is contained in this script. (Saheeh Bukhaaree- Book of Jihaad)

Ibn Sa'd reports that Alee stood in the mosque and delivered a lecture then he asked the people:

Who will purchase ‘knowledge’ for one dirham only?

meaning, who wants to learn ahadeeth should buy writing paper for one dirham and come to him for dictation.

It is reported that Haarith al-A’war bought some paper and came to him:

So, Alee wrote for him a lot of knowledge. (Tabaqaat Ibn Sa’d)

Scripts of Jaabir

Qataadah, one of Jaabir’s students, says,

I remember the script of Jaabir more than I remember Surah al-Baqarah (Qur’aan). (Tahdheeb at-Tahdheeb)

Scripts of Ibn Abbaas

Musa ibn Uqbah says:

Kuraib left with us a camel load of Ibn Abbaas’s books. When Alee ibn Abdullaah ibn Abbaas would need any book from them, he wrote to Kuraib, ‘Send to me such and such books.’ He would then transcribe the book and send to him one of the two copies. (Tabaqaat Ibn Sa’d)

The pupils of Ibn Abbaas would copy these scripts and read them over to him to confirm the correctness of the copies. (Tirmidhi)

Sometimes Ibn Abbaas would narrate the ahadeeth to his pupils while they would record them. (Daarimi)

The compilations of the First Century:

1. Book of Khalid ibn Ma’dan (d. 104)
2. Books of Abu Qilabah (d. 104). He bequeathed his books to his pupil, Ayyub Saktiyan (68-131 A.H.), who paid more than ten dirhams as a fare for them being loaded on a camel.
3. The script of Hammam ibn Munabbih,
4. Books of Hasan al-Basri (21-110 A.H.)
5. Books of Muhammad al-Baqir (56-114 A.H.)
6. Books of Makhul from Syria
7. Book of Hakam ibn ‘Utaibah
8. Book of Bukair ibn Abdullaah ibn al-Ashajj (d. 117)
9. Book of Qais ibn Sa’d (d. 117). This book later belonged to Hammad ibn Salamah.
10. Book of Sulaiman al-Yashkuri
11. Al-Abwaab of Sha’bi,
12. Books of Ibn Shihaab az-Zuhri
13. Book of Abul-Aliyah
14. Book of Sa’id ibn Jubair (d. 95)
15. Books of Umar ibn ‘Abdul Aziz (61-101 A.H.)
16. Books of Mujahid ibn Jabr (d. 103)
17. Book of Raja ibn Hywah (d. 112)
18. Book of Abu Bakr ibn Muhammad ibn Amr ibn Haq
19. Book of Bashir ibn Nahik.

The compilations of the second century (note that only the prominent ones are listed due length) :

1. Book of Abdul Malik ibn Juraij (d. 150)
2. Muwatta of Maalik ibn Anas (93-179)
3. Muwatta of Ibn Abi Zi’b (80-158)
4. Maghaazi of Muhammad ibn Ishaq (d. 151)
5. Musnad of Rabi’ ibn Sabih (d. 160)
6. Book of Sa’id ibn Abi ‘Arubah (d. 156)
7. Book of Hammad ibn Salmah (d. 167)
8. Jami’ Sufyan ath-Thauri (97-161)
9. Jami’ Ma’mar ibn Rashid (95-153)
10. Book of ‘Abdur-Rahman al-Awzaa’I (88-157)
11. Kitaab az-Zuhd by Abdullaah ibn al-Mubaarak (118-181)
12. Book of Hushaim ibn Bashir (104-183)
13. Book of Jarir ibn ‘Abdul-Hamid (110-188)
14. Book of Abdullaah ibn Wahb (125-197)
15. Book of Yahya ibn Abi Kathîr (d. 129)
16. Book of Muhammad ibn Suqah (d. 135)
17. Tafsîr of Zaid ibn Aslam (d. 136)
18. Book of Musa ibn ‘Uqbah (d. 141)
19. Book of Ash’ath ibn ‘Abdul-Malik (d. 142)
20. Book of Aqil ibn Khalid (d. 142)
21. Book of Yahya ibn Sa’id Ansari (d. 143)
22. Book of Awf ibn Abi Jamilah (d. 146)
23. Books of Jafar ibn Muhammad al-Sadiq (d. 148)
24. Books of Yunus ibn Yazid (d. 152)
25. Book of ‘Abdur-Rahman al-Mas’udi (d. 160)
26. Books of Zaidah ibn Qudamah (d. 161)
27. Books of Ibrahim al-Tahman (d. 163)
28. Books of Abu Hamzah al-Sukri (d. 167)
29. Al-Gharaaib by Shu’bah ibn al-Hajjaj (d. 160)
30. Books of Abdul-Aziz ibn ‘Abdullaah al-Majishun (d. 164)
31. Books of Abdullaah ibn ‘Abdullaah ibn Abi Uwais (d. 169)
32. Books of Sulaiman ibn Bilal (d. 172)
33. Books of Abdullaah ibn Lahi’ah (d. 147)
34. Jami’ Sufyan ibn ‘Uyainah (d. 198)
35. Kitaab-ul-AAthaar by Imaam Abu Haneefah (d. 150)
36. Maghaazi of Mu’tamir ibn Sulaiman (d. 187)
37. Musannaf of Waki’ ibn Jarrah (d. 196)
38. Musannaf of Abdur-Razzaaq ibn Hammam (136-221)
39. Musnad of Zaid ibn Alee (76-122)
40. Books of Imaam Shaafi’i (150-204)

The following are available today in printed form:

1. Al-Muwatta by Imaam Maalik.
2. Kitaab-ul-AAthaar by Imaam Abu Haneefah.
3. Musannaf by ‘Abdur-Razzaaq. This book has been published in eleven big volumes.
4. As-Seerah by Muhammad ibn Ishaq.
5. Kitaab az-Zuhd by ‘Abdullaah ibn al-Mubaarak.
6. Kitaab az-Zuhd by Waki’ ibn Jarraah (3 volumes).
7. Al-Musnad by Zaid ibn Alee (76-122).
8. Sunan of Imaam Shaafi’i.
9. Musnad of Shaafi’i.
10. Siyar of Awzaa’i (88-157).
11. Musnad of ‘Abdullaah ibn al-Mubaarak.
12. Musnad of Abu Daawood Tayalisi (d. 204).
13. Ar-Radd ‘ala Siyaril-Awzaa’i by Imaam Abu Yoosuf.
14. Al-Hujjah ‘ala Ahlil-Madeenah by Imaam Muhammad ibn Hasan Shaibaani.
15. Kitaabul-Umm by Imaam Shaafi’i.
16. Al-Maghaazi by Waqidi (130-206) (4 volumes).

It is an attack on the MILLIONS of scholors of the past 1400 years because you are claiming that their works were futile. Millions of people cannot agree upon error.

Millions of people cannot agree upon error? Are you sure about that?

Millions of Christians agree that Isa alayhis-salam is the 'Son of God' . So, have these 'millions of people' agreed on Truth? or have they agreed upon 'error' ?


wsalam

Your analogy is flawed for so many reasons. You have mistaken my argument for the fallacy of appeal to authority or majority. This is only considered a fallacy when the person cited is not an authority in that field. So a human being is not an authority on whether God exists or not, but a medical physican is an authority in medicine, a physicist is an authority on physics, a chemist on chemistry, and a scholar of Hadith (Muhaddith) is an authority on the sciences of Ahadith. And I am not quoting just one scholar of hadith, I am quoting the unanimous consensus of all scholars of Hadith for over a millenium. The scholars of hadith are an authority on hadith sciences. Secondly, You are comparing academic enquiry to faith. Researching the reliability of a group of narrators in a chain is incomparable to the rejection of faith by some people.

http://www.islamicboard.com/332656-post80.html

actually, if you read the Qur'an, you will find that the Qur'an actually does mention the important aspects of Salah

Show me where it describes Eid. Show me where it describes the Eid salah or even says that Muslims have such a celebration as Eid. I guess you won't be celebrating Eid with us.

, including the prostration, the bowing, the standing, qiblah, wudhu etc.

The problem with your argument is that you are interpreting all these practices in light of hadith. So your position is riddled with inconsistencies. For instance, if another hadith rejector came to you and said, "Salah just means to have a connection with God. So long as there is a connection in your heart you are fine; there is no need for all that formal prayers", what could you say in response? In the same manner they could reinterpret all these practices you mentioned and thus strip Islam of its most basic foundation!

Furthermore, the manner of Salah is more easily and accurately passed on through generations, than are the words recorded in the hadith, because they were mostly passed on by 'mouth' - so their accuracy deteriorates throughout the decades.

False again. You ignore the evidence from early compilations. The famous compilers of the Sunan and Sahih compilations were actually building upon the efforts of the thousands of scholars preceding them. Br. Ahmed has been so kind as to provide you with a list of hadith compilations from the first century hijrah and even from the companions themselves. The accuracy of the hadith does not deteriorate since it is affirmed by numerous transmitters.

Remember when you made the ridiculous claim in the other thread that a typical chain in Sahih Bukhari has 25 people and you were soundly refuted when confronted with the fact that it actually has only 5 or 6? I would repeat the same advice I gave you then to educate yourself about these basics.

Do you see just how clear this verse is? It is clearly referring to THE QUR'AN - as being full with 'wisdom' - from the All-Wise. So when Allah says '...revealed to you the Book and wisdom' - it is referring to the Qur'anic wisdom from Allah.

If you claim that there are no revelations to the Porphet Muhammad pbuh outside the Qur'an, then I have a challenge for you...

66:3 And when the Prophet confided to one of his wives a certain matter; and then, when she told of it, and God disclosed that to him, he made known part of it, and turned aside from part; then, when he told her of it, she said, 'Who told thee this?' He said, 'I WAS TOLD OF IT BY THE ALL-KNOWING, THE ALL-AWARE.'

The Prophet pbuh says in the above ayat that God informed him about what his wives had done (naba'aniyal aleem al-khabeer) : show me the ayat in the Qur'an where Allah swt disclosed this information. If you cannot then you must concede that the Prophet pbuh recieved other divine information not mentioned in the Qur'an.

The truth remains that most, if not ALL of the hadith were NOT WRITTEN or compiled during the time of the Prophet.

Actually the list Br. Ahmed quoted has the names of those companions who narrated the MOST Ahadith! Those mentioned are far above any others in the amount they narrated and they had scripts which they recorded on.

Also, the fact that we need the sunnah to understand the Qur'an NECESSITATES that it was preserved by Allah swt.

Millions of people cannot agree upon error? Are you sure about that?

What you're claiming is that the research done by millions of scholars on the hadith was flawed. You're claiming that they were all in error. I'd like to see this magical error in some hadith that has apparently elluded every hadith scholar for over a millenia. In fact, you're not claiming that they all made just one error. You're claiming that they unanimously agreed upon BILLIONS OF ERRORS!

format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

Are you saying that millions (literally) of hadith scholars were so BLIND that even after 1 and a half millenia they still missed HUNDREDS of ahâdîth in the MOST RENOWNED compilations, which are supposedly in BLATANT contradiction with the Qur'an? Jokes go in the Halal Fun section please.

Assalamu alaikum,

I hope me responding in this thread will not be going against the truce I have with Ansar-al-Adl as this thread is a debate thread. If it is, please let me know.

I will try to refute all the claims that are made about certain Qur'anic verses, and show how clearly the correct understanding should be, with the will of Allah, the Most Wise. However I do not have the time to refute all of them in one go, so I will do them one by one. Here is the first one...

format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

If you think this verse is saying that there is no need for information beyond the Qur'an, then you haven't read the entire Qur'an:

Qur'an 16:44 And We have also sent down unto you the reminder, that you may tubayyina (EXPLAIN CLEARLY) to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought.

If al that we need was the verses of the Qur'an, then why would Allah swt ordain for the Prophet pbuh to explain what had been revealed? This clearly means that the explanations are themselves divinely ordained by Allah.

First let us establish that the 'zikr' (reminder) refers exclusively to the Qur'an

And We sent down to you the Reminder( * ) to make clear to the people what was sent to them, and perhaps they will think. [Qur'an 16:44]

( * ) Zikr = reminder / citation / recollection / mention

The reminder (zikr) refers to the Qur'an, as we also see from other verses:

This We recite to you from the revelation and the wise reminder (zikr). [Qur'an 3:58]

A Scripture that has been sent down to you, so let there not be any burden in your chest from it, that you may warn with it; and a reminder (zikr) to the believers. [Qur'an 7:2]

And they said: "O you upon whom the Reminder (zikr) has been sent down, you are crazy." "Why not bring us the Angels if you are of the truthful ones?" We do not send down the Angels except with truth, and then they would have no more delay. Indeed it is We who have sent down the Reminder (zikr), and indeed it is We who will preserve it. [Qur'an 15:6-9]

So the 'zikr' is none other then the Qur'an. Now let us look at the next bit.

And We sent down to you the Reminder to make clear( * ) to the people what was sent to them, and perhaps they will think. [Qur'an 16:44]

( * ) tubayyina

Does this word mean give additional details? The translation you give says 'explain', however we shall see that the Qur'anic translation of the word shows us that the english 'explain' is not an accurate translation.

Let us look at another verse which uses the same word:

And God took the covenant of those who were given the Scripture: "You will make it clear (latubayyinunna) to the people and not conceal it (taktumuuna)." But they threw it behind their backs and purchased with it a cheap price. Miserable indeed is what they have purchased. [Qur'an 3:187]

In the above, Allah tells us how others who were given the Scripture and were entrusted 'to make it known' (tubayinah) to people what was given to them, and not conceal it (taktumuna). 'taktumuna' is used to mean 'to conceal and hide', and is used as a direct opposite to 'tubayyina'.

We see from the above, that Qur'anic meaning of the word 'tubayyina' is to 'disclose' or 'let it be known' and not 'give additional details' as you are suggesting.

Further we read the following verse, where the word is used once again in similiar manner and the meaning of it is further elucidated:

O people of the Scripture, Our messenger has come to you to clarify for you (yu bayyinu lakum) much of what you were hiding from the Scripture, and to pardon over much. A light has come to you from God and a clarifying Book. [Qur'an 5:15]

Thus we see that the Qur'an was sent to the Messenger to 'expose' or 'disclose' much of what the people of the Scripture are hiding. This further helps us understand the meaning of this word as per Qur'anic use.

Finally, another verse, further reinforcing this meaning:

There is no compulsion in the system; the proper way has been made clear from the wrong way (qad tabayyana alrrushdu mina alghayyi). [Qur'an 2:256]

The word has the root ba-ya-na. Which gives us the meanings:

"To be or become manifest, evident." - A Dictionary and Glosarry of the Koran by J.Penrice pp-21
"Be evident, render clear." - Arabic English Dictionary by F. Steingass pp-155
"Manifest, bring into view, disclose." - Al Mawrid Arabic English Dictionary pp-256
"To show, Manifest" - Al Asri Arabic English Dictionary pp 85
"To be or become plain, Evident, come out, visible, to announce." - Hans Wehr Arabic-Eng. Dictionary pp-87

(Note, I have not verified the above references my self but trust it to be correct)

Now we can understand fully, using the Qur'an the following verse:

And We sent down to you the Reminder to make clear (tubayyina) to the people what was sent to them, and perhaps they will think. [Qur'an 16:44]

It is saying that the reminder (the Qur'an) has been sent down so that the Messenger shall let it be known to all people (tubayyina), instead of keeping it to himself.

Peace unto you.

Now let us have a look at your following point:

format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

Really? I have a challenge for you:

66:3 And when the Prophet confided to one of his wives a certain matter; and then, when she told of it, and God disclosed that to him, he made known part of it, and turned aside from part; then, when he told her of it, she said, 'Who told thee this?' He said, 'I WAS TOLD OF IT BY THE ALL-KNWOING, THE ALL-AWARE.'

The Prophet pbuh says in the above ayat that God informed him about what his wives had done (naba'aniyal aleem al-khabeer) : show me the ayat in the Qur'an where Allah swt disclosed this information. If you cannot then you must concede that the Prophet pbuh recieved other divine information not mentioned in the Qur'an.

A revealed scripture, such as the Qur'an, the Torah, or Injeel, do not have to be the only sort of inspiration to its respective messenger. We see that people of the past have received knowledge, or inspiration, yet those inspirations were not parts of any Scripture. Prophet Yusuf's father said:

He said: "I merely complain my grief and sorrow to God, and I know from God what you do not know." [Qur'an 12:86]

This knowledge he received was not part of a Scripture.

Prophet Yusuf was also given the 'knowledge' of intepreting dreams [12:6].
However this knowledge given to him was not part of a Scripture.

Maryam was met by an angel who spoke to her on behalf of Allah, however there is no indication that those words uttered by the angel were to be part of any scripture bieng revealed to Maryam. [19:16-21]

The Prophet may well have been given knowledge, such as the actions of his wives outside of the Qur'an, however that knowledge given by Allah, and the revelation of the verses of the Qur'an, are two very different things. That is because the Qur'an is a Scripture (kitab), consisting of revealed verses, these are revealed to be part of a complete guide (the Qur'an attests to it bieng a complete book of guide). However other knowledges to the Prophet may not be in the form of verses.

That is why the status and authority of Allah's scriptures are far special and beyond these communications made to certain individuals, prophets or messengers, in terms of its exclusive status as a complete guide consisting of revealed verses for mankind. We establish that the Qur'an, is a complete book through its verses.

"Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this Scripture fully detailed( * )?" Those to whom We have given the Scripture know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt. And the word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower. [Qur'an 6:114-116]

( * ) mufassal = detailed / explained / eleborated

for We sent the Scripture down to you explaining everything, and as guidance and mercy and good news to those who submit to God. [Qur'an 16:89]

This revelation is no fabrication: it is a confirmation of the truth of what was sent before it; and explenation of everything; a guide and a blessing for those who believe. [Qur'an 12:111]

To reiterate, the Qur'an does not have to contain all that is inspired to the messenger. It will only contain verses which Allah reveals as verses, to be part of the complete Scripture - what is to be part of the guide for mankind.

The fact that the Prophet may have received knowledge outside of the Qur'an, does not do anything in the way to proove that we need any source other than the Qur'an, because the Qur'an tells us it is complete and fully detailed. Any other knowledge or inspiration to the Prophet, is not neccessary for guidance (which is why it is not in the Qur'an).

In conclusion, we have seen that the Qur'an is the only guide for mankind (because Allah says it is so), regardless of any other inspiration given to the Messenger (such the knowledge of the his wives actions).

Assalamu Alaikum everybody reading this thread

this subject interests me because I have been confronted in my own beliefs by those whom are not inclined to adhere to every ahadith

there are a few points I wish to make

First is that when the Prophet (Peach and Allah's blessing with Him) is in that time of being able to receive Qur'an, He is necessarily attuned mentally all night and all day to receiving other teaching in Allah. It is an insult to the Prophet to not be in due regard of every teaching He gave us.

Second it is within my own knowledge that, now that Shari'ah is within Arc of Covenant the matter can be readily clarified. This is simply because there was a specific moment in time at which all the Law placed into Arc of Covenant before that minute, were accessed by Arch Angel Gabriel for Qur'an to the the instrument of learning for; while after that minute the transmission of further Laws which were placed into Arc of Covenant became by a different individual Angel, whose name can not be spoken, (therein is the reasoning for Mohammed having been unable to reveal, and also the clue to what sort of being actualise transmitting the Law to Mohammed).

Assalamu Alaikum rvq

Some hadith are not very.....pleasent