How old is planet earth

Yeah i suppose it is completly off topic, so when comparative religion opens up again, i'll start a new thread.
Any chance all this can be shifted to such a thread cos i think both me and sky have come up with some interesting stuff?

format_quote Originally Posted by barney

So the only way to show if Johns book was "real" would be if it was exactly the same as the quran? Lets take a single god. Ra for instance off the top of my head. plenty of pre-abrahamites worshipped Ra as their only god. Thats however not a sign that the beleifs of Ra's followers were inspired let alone revealed to the egyptians by Allah, (and they just got the name wrong),. Ra had his own story, his own legends his own dogma etc etc. None of which was in any real way similar to Islam.
We can take two things from this. Either:

To wrap it up and cut the crap, because this is indeed a waste on the most holy night of the entire month, tell me why would it be like the Quran?

قُل لَّوْ كَانَ الْبَحْرُ مِدَادًا لِّكَلِمَاتِ رَبِّي لَنَفِدَ الْبَحْرُ قَبْلَ أَن تَنفَدَ كَلِمَاتُ رَبِّي وَلَوْ جِئْنَا بِمِثْلِهِ مَدَدًا {109}

[Pickthal 18:109] Say: Though the sea became ink for the Words of my Lord, verily the sea would be used up before the words of my Lord were exhausted, even though We brought the like thereof to help.

So again, perhaps you need to explain to me why other books have to be exactly like the Quran?

1) The Egyptians were given the message and they corrupted it, by basically throwing everything out and making up new stories that had nothing to do with Gods real message.
2) Ra was a made-up God with nothing to do with Islam. The egypians were not sent a messanger, or they were sent a messenger and his message was discarded/wiped out by the followers of Ra and all the other Gods, Seth/Horus etc.

Ra was the sun King.. I have no reason to believe the Egyptians were given a book, just persons who peaks by divine inspiration of the one God, and I have given an example of a monotheist pharaoh pre Moses!
Eventually, there was Moses, There was also Joseph who had no books but had prophetic dreams and spoke of the same God.. I mention him over his father because he was given a very high status in Egypt!

So it is possible that there are equivelent messages, written into ancient Navaho writings or legends.They may or may not have been corrupted.

I really have no idea where you are going with this? Considering the Quotes given to you earlier.. Anyone not given a message will not be punished as per Quran.. I don't know what the Navajos were given pre Mohammed PBUH.. I don't believe the world was as isolated as you'd like to believe.. Ancient Egyptians were in America way before Columbus took credit for it!

Yup, floats my boat.

Apparently you float alot of people's boats.. just not your wife's?

Oh I do. I'm all for rallying against intolerance and pointless bloodshed as I'm sure you are.

Personally, I lust for blood sports..

Nope.There are Polytheists and unbeleivers in scriptures. The unbeleivers are people who dont beleive in Yahweh or allah. Theyre not unbeleivers in any god.
Some ancient atheists did exist but generally it was a good idea to go through the motions of beleif in fear of the backlash.

Really.. why do you suppose folks ask these sort of questions as per Quran

وَلَئِنْ أَطَعْتُم بَشَرًا مِثْلَكُمْ إِنَّكُمْ إِذًا لَّخَاسِرُونَ {34}

[Pickthal 23:34] If ye were to obey a mortal like yourselves, then, lo! ye surely would be losers.

أَيَعِدُكُمْ أَنَّكُمْ إِذَا مِتُّمْ وَكُنتُمْ تُرَابًا وَعِظَامًا أَنَّكُم مُّخْرَجُونَ {35}

[Pickthal 23:35] Doth he promise you that you, when ye are dead and have become dust and bones, will (again) be brought forth?

هَيْهَاتَ هَيْهَاتَ لِمَا تُوعَدُونَ {36}
[Pickthal 23:36] Begone, begone, with that which ye are promised!

إِنْ هِيَ إِلَّا حَيَاتُنَا الدُّنْيَا نَمُوتُ وَنَحْيَا وَمَا نَحْنُ بِمَبْعُوثِينَ {37}

[Pickthal 23:37] There is naught but our life of the world; we die and we live, and we shall not be raised (again).


Sounds to me like folks who don't believe Ra, or Odin or shaka zulu is going to put them back together again, once they are dead there were no Gods waiting.. what do you think, oh one who has read the Quran?

Whoah! What about Adam? Wasnt he the first Monotheist? Are we saying here that Humans spread from the middle east all over the world! Are we also saying that only by looking at the shooting stars "missing" a village etc that Abraham decided that there was one God? God sent him angels, thats kinda hard to argue with.

There were no other monotheists around the time of Abraham, so he is indeed considered the first of his kind for his time.. we don't know how far back Adam lived, could have been eons before him and Abraham..
just like prophet Mohamed PBUh was the first amongst his people who worshipped manat, Al-Lat and Al-'Uzza in lieu the one God, further though they detested women, Manat was a female goddess!
so he too is considered a first amongst his people!

Well great. We are all happy. If you enjoy circling my posts like a hungry vulture then stop moaning about something you enjoy doing!
Islam has been followed for 1400 years by billions of Muslims, I hardly think a middleaged fat bald and mostly drunken Yorkshireman is going to debunk anything.

I know you like to lick your wounds and shelter your own ego by believing your non-questions are something of substance. But you are inept least considering your self-professed knowledge of Islam and the QUran. And I do enjoy making a spectacle of you on occasion especially when you decide to go quoting wiki articles without understanding the content of what your quote

Bah. basically repeating myself.
The Quran says all nations were sent a messenger. The quran is the word of god, gods perfect, so it has to be true. Hence messengers were sent.
So why dont they show up anywhere in any Writing/legends/stories/sagas/cave paintings/you-tube vids. Why does the Quran only reference things that appear in the Jewish Torah and Christian writings of 150AD

Quran doesn't reference things only in Judeo/Christian beliefs why just a paragraph ago I referenced you to Manat, and the rest.. .. but this time I insist you read the Quran which you've practically mustered.. amongst other things you'll find reference to gods not mentioned in preceding books

أَفَرَأَيْتُمُ اللَّاتَ وَالْعُزَّى {19}

[Pickthal 53:19] Have ye thought upon Al-Lat and Al-'Uzza

وَمَنَاةَ الثَّالِثَةَ الْأُخْرَى {20}

[Pickthal 53:20] And Manat, the third, the other?

أَلَكُمُ الذَّكَرُ وَلَهُ الْأُنثَى {21}

[Pickthal 53:21] Are yours the males and His the females?

تِلْكَ إِذًا قِسْمَةٌ ضِيزَى {22}

[Pickthal 53:22] That indeed were an unfair division!

إِنْ هِيَ إِلَّا أَسْمَاء سَمَّيْتُمُوهَا أَنتُمْ وَآبَاؤُكُم مَّا أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ بِهَا مِن سُلْطَانٍ إِن يَتَّبِعُونَ إِلَّا الظَّنَّ وَمَا تَهْوَى الْأَنفُسُ وَلَقَدْ جَاءهُم مِّن رَّبِّهِمُ الْهُدَى {23}

[Pickthal 53:23] They are but names which ye have named, ye and your fathers, for which Allah hath revealed no warrant. They follow but a guess and that which (they) themselves desire. And now the guidance from their Lord hath come unto them.


.. furthermore there are cave carvings of expulsion from Eden that pre-date Judaism, as I have personally attended a lecture on it, at the Walters, will look it up for you when I have the time..
other than that, of fate of other nations is a question you should address to the Christians and Jews.. ask them of the fate of all those non-Israelite, as well the fate of those who refuse to worship the man Jesus who was in fact also sent to the lost sheep of Bani Israel-- perhaps Their God doesn't care for the rest of humanity, but that isn't what Islam teaches!

All people were of one faith. That faith was Islam. So they had to learn islam from someone/thing. They differed about the faith. If it hadnt been for the word god sent before, their differences would have been resolved.

2:213. Mankind was one single nation, and Allah sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings; and with them He sent the Book in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed; but the People of the Book, after the clear Signs came to them, did not differ among themselves, except through selfish contumacy. Allah by His Grace Guided the believers to the Truth, concerning that wherein they differed. For Allah guided whom He will to a path that is straight.


as per the QUran you read and purposefully misapprehend!

To be honest this brings up about 30 new questions for me, all of them horribly convoluted! Before i start diving in, i think I'd better get a muslim perspective on what this verse is Supposed to mean!

Great...try to make the beginning match the end as much as possible with your next set, I hate sorting through heaps of junk especially in the best night of Ramadan

cheers

Baraka Allah feeki ukhty.. pls if you are up for qyam elyel make du3a for me..

Jazaki Allah khyran

format_quote Originally Posted by barney

I suppose it goes back to my earlier thread, "was Adam a cavemen".
Assuming that all the nations got a warner/messenger, then the Inuits (eskimo's) and the Aztecs and Native Americans also got their warners too.
I wonder what happened to them. Clearly the ancesteral spirits and the animal gods have little that equates with Islam, so whoever these messengers were with those nations, their message diddnt take hold.

Nothing new. You've read the Quran, I believe, right? If so, you should already know that there is nothing new about Messengers being rejected by their people.

There are thousands of nations/tribes, if each got a messenger then some remains of these thousands of message's all identical to that revealed to mohammed and uncorrupted by the jews may be found yes?

It depends on what you mean. You aren't going to find a copy of the Quran - because only Muhammad was given the Quran. We don't share law with the older generations, only beliefs (such as God is One, mankind came from Adam, there is a resurrection, heaven and hell etc). I highly doubt we would be able to find records that old, anyway.

So would you agree that if Allah sent all nations a prophet or a messenger then the Quran was given to other people? Perhaps tens or hundreds of thousands of years ago?

Again, a big emphatic, NO! Only Muhammad was given the Quran, some other Messengers were given their own books (which are not the Quran).

So why dont they show up anywhere in any Writing/legends/stories/sagas/cave paintings/you-tube vids. Why does the Quran only reference things that appear in the Jewish Torah and Christian writings of 150AD

That is not true - there are stories in the Quran not mentioned in hte Jewish or Christians texts - such as the stories of the people of 'Ad and Thamud.