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In response to Hawking's new stated position on God

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    In response to Hawking's new stated position on God (OP)


    I ordinarily don’t do this. Through gradual tapering I’ve more or less stopped responding to atheists altogether, at least in forums or other places where there’s an immediate and direct back-and-forth. (This is why I may well never write another “Atheistic Chestnuts Refuted” article, for instance.) There are two reasons. First, because most of the atheists you’ll talk to respond to your arguments with nothing more than talk that is little different from the insults of an elementary schooler, and their behavior otherwise is no less immature or appalling. They even use directly childish idioms and reference points, each more puerile and needlessly obnoxious than the last. (For instance, take their cliché analogies to God: Santa Claus, The Flying Spaghetti Monster, invisible pink unicorns...stop and think for a minute how odd it is to hear this coming from the mouths of grown-ups.) Some of them try to rationalize away their constantly insulting way of speaking by saying that humor helps to open the mind or that anyone who believes the “silly” things we do deserves to be mocked ruthlessly (apparently their sense of justice is no more advanced beyond the fifth grade than their sense of humor); others make no apologies but still get just as defensive anyway when you label their horrible behavior for what it is. I’m not saying that there aren’t civil atheists out there: probably there’s a lot of them, and years ago I was close friends with one. But the more vocal ones almost always seem to be the ones who mock and deride instead of reason: this trait reaches far beyond the ubiquitous forum trolls who exist among people of every stripe and goes all the way into many if not most of their most esteemed, “professional” scholars.

    The second reason is that you can’t win with these sorts anyway since they’re constantly shifting their ground or fortifying themselves with catch-22’s. The modern atheistic intellectual zeitgeist is little more than a mass of self-contradictory double standards which leave no conceivable means for even a theoretical possibility to slip in from any quarter of anything making the holders of these standards change their minds. If one or two extraordinary events happen then the skeptics say that of course that doesn’t indicate anything because it’s obviously a fluke instead of a sign or divine intervention because after all, it’s not like such unlikely things happen all the time; if they do end up happening all the time then these people say that of course it doesn’t mean anything because it’s obviously just the statistical effect called clustering: an epidemic of extraordinary things has to happen to someone eventually. A lot of these skeptics walk around saying, “I’ll believe it when I see it,” yet if they do see something themselves they pass it off as a hallucination or some other sort of phantasm or illusion. They complain (rightly, perhaps) of atheists always being depicted, in fiction and even in real life, as being merely prejudiced by some emotional or psychological impetus like a personal trauma or something, but at the same time they go around talking about religious faith like it is automatically and inherently a purely emotional or psychological phenomenon, or even a mental illness. Some of these atheists (many of them the same people who on other occasions demand miracles as proof) claim that if something were to break the laws of physics then that would just necessitate a redefinition of those laws—again, leaving no room for any persuasion that there was divine intervention. Something in reality that doesn’t fit your worldview? Just patch it up by redefining a word.

    Most egregiously of all, they criticize creationist “science” (again, rightly) of bringing the subject of the supernatural into science when by definition science is the study of the natural world only and therefore it’s like mixing oil and water, but then many of these same people also say that they disbelieve in God because there is no scientific evidence for Him. It’s no use pointing out to them that if scientific proof of the supernatural is impossible then so is scientific disproof of the supernatural, or that it is unreasonable and irrational in the first place to say that you disbelieve in God, a supernatural Being and therefore something that wouldn’t and couldn’t yield scientific evidence of His existence even if He did exist, because there is no scientific evidence for His existence. Oh, they’ll get the self-refuting and mind-closing discrepancy involved but somehow they still won’t get what’s wrong with holding to it. Do you see my predicament now? How are you to argue with a man who insists that something can’t be in the next room behind a locked door because his methods of studying this room have disclosed no reason to think that the object is here in it, even though he very well knows this is not where the object could possibly be if it exists, and he doesn’t care (or even takes pride) in how beside the point his reasoning is? And that’s not even close to the worst thing you have to deal with when trying to reason with these folks. It’s difficult and seemingly pointless to go on—in person, at any rate.

    Every now and then, though, I come across a piece of anti-theism propaganda that is so very asinine, unoriginal, and nigh unreadable behind the words FALLACY being written all over it a thousand times in giant bold letters—and yet so likely to be talked about endlessly--that I know a refutation seems necessary and even with my ordinary distaste for such things I can hardly resist anyway. Such a piece is Stephen Hawking’s recent cant about God having no role in the universe. This is one of those articles that is so drenched in illogic that it seems necessary to go through it bit by bit:

    STEPHEN HAWKING: GOD HAS NO ROLE IN UNIVERSE, by Theunis Bates

    LONDON (Sept. 2)—Entering the ongoing debate between faith and science, renowned British scientist Stephen Hawking claims that modern physics has now proved that God played no role in the creation of the universe.

    In a new book—“The Grand Design,” co-written with American physicist Leonard Mlodinow—the theoretical physicist sets out to demolish Sir Isaac Newton’s claim that an "intelligent and powerful Being" must have shaped the universe, which he believed could not have emerged from chaos. Hawking and Mlodinow rule out the possibility of divine intervention, saying that new theories have made the idea of a supernatural creator redundant.
    I refer you to what I said above. Science, the study of nature, could no more prove anything about supernature one way or the other than linguistics could prove a mathematical formula. I suppose the idea is that nauseatingly old “God of the Gaps” nonsense, which posits that the real purpose of theism is to explain things that science has not “yet” explained. I’ve always had two serious problems with this theory. First, there’s the absurd literalism and historical snobbery involved with the implications and typical explanations or supports of the idea. Second, science has, in the end, not explained diddly squat as a replacement for how nature works as opposed to divine agencies or whatever. All science has done is put the words "the forces of nature" in as a placeholder and pretend that it already is what it is a placeholder for, and for that matter that these words even have a definition in the first place—or at least one that’s specific, coherent, articulate, and meaningful enough to have any practical value whatsoever so that it really makes any difference whether the definition is there or not. The concept of “the forces of nature” is a non-explanation—indeed, it’s really a non-concept. Descriptions are not the same thing as explanations. Saying the word “force” does not supply any new information. It doesn’t even communicate anything. Science can describe, to some degree, what gravity or electromagnetism does, but not what it is, or what causes it. The laws of the universe are just patterns of consistent behavior for which science has no actual explanation whatsoever, just semantics masquerading as explanations. These people notice a common type of occurrence, affix a label to it, and then say, “There, now the occurrence is explained.” Well, maybe they don’t go so far as to put it directly into words like that: one wouldn’t want to openly reveal the malarkey for what it is and force oneself to face the reality of one’s ignorance and, worse, one’s denial.

    Not to mention that even if a fact does render something redundant, that is not the same as rendering it untrue. Or that these “forces of nature” themselves form an arabesque of pattern and organization to begin with which in every other instance is an evident mark of design. We are a colony of microscopic creatures living in one isolated corner of a vast Persian rug, and once we’ve seen enough of our corner to notice some patterns in the rug which form the basis and structure that our little “world” stands on, a few of us come up with names for these patterns, pretend the names are themselves existential and causal accounts, and then, most puzzlingly of all, use these names as evidence that we must not be on a woven thing of any sort. Because consistency is a sign of lack of design, apparently. At least when you give it a name which allows people to forget that you’re not talking about anything in the first place more specific and explanatory than things behaving consistently in certain ways. Such is “the forces of nature”.

    But wait, if we read on then we see that Mr. Hawking isn’t saying that: no, it’s worse. He’s saying that not only was there no weaver, the rug wove itself:

    "Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing," the pair write, in an extract published in today's London Times. "Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist. It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the Universe going."
    Except that there must have been something to light the paper with, and something to have ignited it and set it to the paper. It seems ridiculous that I should actually have to explain that and why things can’t create themselves, let alone out of nothing, but all right. For one thing, something has to exist before it can perform any action or function such as creation. And if it already exists to begin with, that means it’s already been created, and furthermore...oh, enough of this. Like I said, it shouldn’t bear explaining. (Additionally, even if it were not necessary to invoke God, that would not mean that He’s not there. “Necessary” and “real” are two very different concepts, and thus to say that an absence of necessity indicates an absence of reality is to speak in non-sequiturs.)

    "The Grand Design," which goes on sale next week, is a significant shift away from Hawking's previous comments on the divine. In his 1988 best-seller, “A Brief History of Time,” he suggested that it was possible to believe in the concept of God as creator and also hold a scientific view of the universe. "If we do discover a complete theory...of why it is that we and the universe exist...it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason—for then we would know the mind of God," he wrote.

    And in a 2007 interview, he appeared to portray himself as an agnostic. "I believe the universe is governed by the laws of science," he told the BBC. "The laws may have been decreed by God, but God does not intervene to break the laws."
    The “mind of God” statement is open to various possible interpretations. Indeed, many people have suspected Hawking of being a flat-out atheist all along, who didn’t want to admit to it because it would mean a drop in book sales or reputation. He has been maybe a little vague and evasive on the subject, and I do seem to remember reading at infidels.org or somewhere a few years back, in some article about how more atheistic celebrities should proudly proclaim their atheism rather than keep it a secret, that...I can’t remember the author’s name for the life of me, but whoever it was put months of “tremendous pressure” (i.e. obnoxious poking, prying and pestering instead of letting the poor man have his right to privacy) on Hawking until finally his secretary said, “When Mr. Hawking says ‘God’ he is referring to the forces of nature.” I don’t know if that’s true or not—it was only secondhand information from a secretary who may have just been trying to shut that badgering fellow up—but in any case, whatever Hawking believed Bates should not just declare a flip-flop in Hawking’s position on theism when his previous position was not at all clear and he himself has not said anything about changing his mind.

    Hawking now argues that Newton's assertion that the laws of nature cannot alone explain the existence of life and the universe started to fall apart in 1992, when astronomers discovered the first extrasolar planets (planets beyond our own solar system) orbiting other sunlike stars.

    "That makes the coincidences of our planetary conditions—the single Sun, the lucky combination of Earth-Sun distance and solar mass, far less remarkable, and far less compelling evidence that the Earth was carefully designed just to please us human beings," he writes.
    “Just to please us”?! I’ll be generous and assume that was a silly little careless poor choice of words. As for the rest, it’s all that same endlessly repeated line about how modern knowledge of science somehow means less evidence of teleology because the individual (and usually, mostly abandoned per se) straw man argument is treated or implied as standing for all teleological thought. Usually this is done by saying that the theory of evolution itself has disproven the teleological position; now Hawking is speaking as though the likelihood of life on other planets has, and in mere reference to the ancient words of Isaac Newton. This makes Hawking no better than the creationists who attack selected, oversimplified statements written by Darwin himself as if that could refute the entire theory of evolution. I have already discussed above why the “forces of nature” are more likely to be signs of design than of undesign, and I have discussed it further, with refutations of the inevitable counter-arguments, in the other thread where I gave the excerpt from my own book in progress. If—pardon me, when—I must explain it all over again, it should be in another thread still, because to go into it here would be prolix and slightly off topic.

    Hawking believes that other universes, as well as other solar systems, are also likely to exist. But if God's purpose was to create mankind, he wonders, why would He make these redundant and out-of-reach worlds?
    If that doesn’t make you wonder why even the most intelligent nontheists in the world cannot formulate intelligent arguments, I don’t know what will. Apparently Hawking is one of those nontheists who automatically equate belief in God with belief that God made the world only to make humans, or mainly to make humans. Another straw man, though not at all of an uncommon stripe: nontheistic literature is replete with attacks on theism itself by way of attacking individual, select beliefs of certain groups of theists. Lots of theists do not believe that God made the world just to make mankind: indeed, the notion is explicitly denied in the Koran, which was written in the Dark Ages: “The creation of the heavens and the earth is certainly greater than the creation of humans, though most humans don’t know it.” (Surah 40, verse 57) This is one of the dangers of ignorance and stereotype: they strike even the smartest people, making them think such manifest malarkey as that “X existing in the first place=X having certain motives” is a necessary truth that is so obvious as not even to be considered. Heck, God’s role as creator and designer doesn’t even indicate that any viewpoint about His motives at all, religious or unorthodox, is necessarily correct.

    Second of all, what makes other worlds redundant? The Koran, again, stated that there are many earths (surah 65, verse 12). Even if we are alone out there, the vast size of the universe beyond us—which we know we can only barely begin to detect, the detectable parts alone being unimaginably cyclopean—is anything but redundant: it just goes to show how us how great and inconceivable its Creator would be. There is nothing redundant about a master who needs nothing yet who still creates people out of the kindness of His heart coming up with a few more servants: if anything, it stands to reason. And what the heck could the worlds being out of reach of each other (if they even are, for a more technologically advanced and long-lived species than our own) have to do with it?? There may be another colony of microscopic organisms living farther away from us here on this great Persian rug than we can ever hope to reach, but that doesn’t change the fact of the arabesque in the rug itself. And besides, it’s not like the existence of intelligent life on other planets is even proven in the least yet, though Hawking seems to be taking the matter purely for granted.

    Richard Dawkins, an evolutionary biologist and high-profile atheist...
    Okay, stop right there. Dawkins may be high-profile in the literal sense of being famous, but only in that sense. The implication here seems to be that he is a respected member of the intellectual community and yet I don’t even know of very many atheists who take him seriously. I think very little of him myself.

    ...welcomed the book, telling the Times that Hawking had developed a theory of Darwinism for the entirety of nature, not simply the creatures that live within it. "That's exactly what he's saying," Dawkins told the paper. "I know nothing of the details of the physics, but I had always assumed the same thing."
    I spoke too soon. It looks like they did go ahead and tow the “evolution automatically refutes a teleological view of the universe” line after all in addition to the rest. I really should have seen this coming.

    However, religious commentators have criticized Hawking's theorizing, saying he can never hope to explain what is essentially unexplainable.

    "If all the physical laws had been explained and proved—which is a million miles from the case—our understanding of the actions of God would not be one whit greater: his existence and his actions are of a different order," writes Quentin de la Bedoyere, science editor of the U.K.'s Catholic Herald newspaper. "Most particularly it would not touch the question of how something existing comes out from nothing. That is a question which science cannot answer, and will never answer, because nothingness is not within its domain. ... Neither [Hawking], nor you, nor I will ever explain creation, except through faith."
    He was doing so well until that final sentence. But because he messed up there and said that “faith” line, he has allowed the psyches of thousands of atheists reading his words to focus on that one thing and overlook the common sense of the rest. A week after reading the quote, it will be the only thing they remember him saying.

    Stephen Hawking has given many signs lately that in the best case scenario what brilliance he may have once genuinely had is slipping, and in the worst case scenario he is losing his capacity for original and rational thought, or isn’t bothering to use said capacity. One of his other most recent articles is just one long cliché about how aliens probably exist and will probably be hostile toward us and must be of vastly superior intelligence and so on. Barring all the other errors involved, you’d at least think that he of all people would understand that the only thing necessary for a race to develop interstellar travel is not superhuman intelligence but only intelligence that’s at minimum approximately human, given that the human brain has not grown definitely and noticeably more intelligent in the few thousand years we’ve been really developing our technology, and obviously still will not have if in a few more thousand years we’ve taken it to new levels like interstellar travel ourselves. It just takes a mind like our own and a lot of dedicated time and practice, not an inherently greater intellect. Perhaps it is dedicated time and practice that Mr. Hawking has fallen out of, because for the reasons I have given (and I’m really only scratching the surface) he hasn’t given any more sign of applying mental effort to the subject of theism either. As Stephen King wrote in On Writing, no one can be as intellectually lazy as a really smart person. Nevertheless, Hawking’s words are good for one thing: they go to show that even the most intelligent nontheists in the world can’t come up with any argumentation that’s even remotely new, logical, or even interesting.
    Last edited by IAmZamzam; 09-03-2010 at 12:23 AM.
    In response to Hawking's new stated position on God

    Peace be to any prophets I may have mentioned above. Praised and exalted be my Maker, if I have mentioned Him. (Come to think of it praise Him anyway.)

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    Re: In response to Hawking's new stated position on God

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    actually I find his existence to be quite miraculous--ALS is a death sentence, the life expectancy is 3-5 years max, and they die a terrible death, the fact that he is here decades after the diagnosis, should really prompt him to view the miracle of his mind and existence.. It is a pity to be embittered instead of enthralled, but I suppose that is the route most people take.. I come so close to taking that route myself many times, but then it just seems silly!

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    Re: In response to Hawking's new stated position on God

    format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ View Post
    How do you conclude that he failed?
    Because, as far as I can see, he didn't even try. If Yahya DID explain how it is possible to assess whether an argument is fallacious when you are aware only of the conclusion, do please point it out to me.

    did you read beside the conclusion yourself to argue whether Yahya overlooked the essentials?
    I haven't read the book, and neither has Yahya. Neither of us, therefore, have any idea what those essentials are. The only difference between us is that I acknowledge that fact.

    if you desire to defend hawkins' points then illustrate them and let us be the judge as to whether or not yahya waffled, pancaked so we too can be irked to the level that has you so in a tizzy..
    That is unnecessary, as not having read the book Yahya could do nothing but waffle within the framework of criticism he chose to employ. I have no great desire to defend Hawking's claim as I understand it, as doing so with committed monotheists is clearly futile. If I did, however, my first step would be to read the book, understand and assess those arguments.
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    Re: In response to Hawking's new stated position on God

    Greetings,

    format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
    How do you conclude that he failed? did you read beside the conclusion yourself to argue whether Yahya overlooked the essentials?

    The book hasn't been published yet, so nobody here is likely to have read it.


    if you desire to defend hawkins' points...

    The author's name is Stephen Hawking.


    Peace
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    Re: In response to Hawking's new stated position on God

    format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble View Post
    Because, as far as I can see, he didn't even try. If Yahya DID explain how it is possible to assess whether an argument is fallacious when you are aware only of the conclusion, do please point it out to me.
    Anyone can make a five course dinner out of lunch, the abstract/conclusion and the numbered table on the side is in fact all that is needed for one to understand the distillate of a particular article. Nonetheless that isn't what I am arguing, I am asking you to make us join you on the protest bandwagon by showing us the grave injustice yahya made by simply commenting on the conclusion.
    Please share with us the entire body so we can see if his statements are a gross misrepresentation of what Hawking intended!


    I haven't read the book, and neither has Yahya. Neither of us, therefore, have any idea what those essentials are. The only difference between us is that I acknowledge that fact.
    Well then what are you doing here arguing against waffles and pancakes? you should in fact wow us with the patent 'tosh' yaha has been dispensing with here!


    That is unnecessary, as not having read the book Yahya could do nothing but waffle within the framework of criticism he chose to employ. I have no great desire to defend Hawking's claim as I understand it, as doing so with committed monotheists is clearly futile. If I did, however, my first step would be to read the book, understand and assess those arguments.
    And you can indeed do that instead of dispensing with a laundry list of adhoms that doesn't seem to elevate you to that select intelligentsia you so desire to represent.
    Bring us an outline of the book point by point after you've read it and show us the errors of yahya's ways!

    all the best
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    Re: In response to Hawking's new stated position on God

    format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson View Post
    Greetings,
    and to you!

    The book hasn't been published yet, so nobody here is likely to have read it.
    Then why have you graced this section with your presence?


    The author's name is Stephen Hawking.
    Thank God for your presence here to point that out!


    Peace
    Indeed!
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    Re: In response to Hawking's new stated position on God

    format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ View Post
    And you can indeed do that instead of dispensing with a laundry list of adhoms ..
    "Just once before I die--just one, single, lone, solitary time....... "
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    Re: In response to Hawking's new stated position on God



    format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson View Post
    Greetings,




    The book hasn't been published yet, so nobody here is likely to have read it.





    The author's name is Stephen Hawking.


    Peace
    Release date: 9th September 2010, available for pre-order http://www.amazon.co.uk/Grand-Design.../dp/0593058291

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    Re: In response to Hawking's new stated position on God

    format_quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    Gratuitous verbal abuse or "name-calling" itself is not an ad hominem or a logical fallacy.

    This is not to be confused with a true fallacy, which would be "X is idiotically ignorant [of politics], so why should we listen to him now?"
    And don't give me the old "you can't trust Wikipedia" line. I've yet to see any exposition on the fallacy in a list or other source that disagrees, yet I've also yet to see any other person use the term in accordance with what these all universally say.
    In response to Hawking's new stated position on God

    Peace be to any prophets I may have mentioned above. Praised and exalted be my Maker, if I have mentioned Him. (Come to think of it praise Him anyway.)
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    Re: In response to Hawking's new stated position on God

    format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman View Post
    And don't give me the old "you can't trust Wikipedia" line. I've yet to see any exposition on the fallacy in a list or other source that disagrees, yet I've also yet to see any other person use the term in accordance with what these all universally say.
    What point are you actually trying to make? Both Lily and I are perfectly well aware of what an ad hominem fallacy is.

    You stated that

    Stephen Hawking has given many signs lately that in the best case scenario what brilliance he may have once genuinely had is slipping, and in the worst case scenario he is losing his capacity for original and rational thought, or isn’t bothering to use said capacity.
    with the obvious and deliberate implication that his conclusions are suspect because of one or all of 'slipping brilliance', a lost capacity for rational thought, or a recent history of not using same. None of those things is relevant to the specific conclusions in the new book, and the only possible reason for that making statement is to suggest those conclusions should not be taken seriously because of certain characteristics you assign to their author.. i.e an almost paradigmatic ad hominem.

    If that statement is not an ad hominem, it can only be one thing... the very 'gratuitous abuse' you are accusing everybody else of confusing with an ad hominem fallacy!
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    Re: In response to Hawking's new stated position on God

    format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble View Post
    What point are you actually trying to make? Both Lily and I are perfectly well aware of what an ad hominem fallacy is.
    Whether you knew it or not, you gave no sign of using the term correctly.

    with the obvious and deliberate implication that his conclusions are suspect because of one or all of 'slipping brilliance', a lost capacity for rational thought, or a recent history of not using same. None of those things is relevant to the specific conclusions in the new book, and the only possible reason for that making statement is to suggest those conclusions should not be taken seriously because of certain characteristics you assign to their author.. i.e an almost paradigmatic ad hominem.

    If that statement is not an ad hominem, it can only be one thing... the very 'gratuitous abuse' you are accusing everybody else of confusing with an ad hominem fallacy!
    I did not say that his slipping of whatever-the-case-may-be was an indication of how fallacious the article's quotations were, but that the fallacies were a further indication of the slipping, and not the first. If I had done the former, then you could have accused me of an ad hominem.
    In response to Hawking's new stated position on God

    Peace be to any prophets I may have mentioned above. Praised and exalted be my Maker, if I have mentioned Him. (Come to think of it praise Him anyway.)
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    Re: In response to Hawking's new stated position on God

    I think people think too hard. If you analyze everything you will find it to be subjective as objectivity is relative and not a constant and is in flux. eg light was thought to travel at a certain velocity it was a constant that the scientists clung to. Now we know that it's velocity can be slowed by gravity and it can be bent by gravity and so can time slowed down. So the trouble with reason is it cannot be proved but only by observation in any given time. eg 2+2 =4 is an objective fact but only for the here and now. That is the problem with science and philosophy and the laws of physics they are all really just observations that can change. That is why religion is better, no one has ever got their head around God as the comprehension of God can only be comprehendid by God. This is humility and is very important for ones sanity for if you try too hard to work out the truth and nuts and bolts of everything you will go mad. You will become a nilhilist that believes in nothing, you wont even believe you don't believe.
    So all the pontificators out there, the scientists, philosophers and religious leaders you are as simple children in the scheme of things.
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    Re: In response to Hawking's new stated position on God

    Sorry, duplicate post.
    Last edited by Trumble; 09-06-2010 at 03:45 AM.
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    Re: In response to Hawking's new stated position on God

    format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman View Post
    Whether you knew it or not, you gave no sign of using the term correctly.
    I used it perfectly correctly, as I suspect you are perfectly well aware.

    I did not say that his slipping of whatever-the-case-may-be was an indication of how fallacious the article's quotations were, but that the fallacies were a further indication of the slipping, and not the first. If I had done the former, then you could have accused me of an ad hominem.
    Who exactly are you trying to fool, here? As is transparently obvious to anyone reading your OP You DID do the former, something unchanged by the fact that towards the end of the same (your final) paragraph you might have done the latter as well. I suppose you could claim it was only heavily implied rather than explicitly stated, but an explicit statement was hardly necessary.

    And, of course, you have still failed to explain how you can possibly know they are 'fallacies' when you are ignorant of the arguments that produced them. The only justification that you offer for that belief is precisely the ad hominem that you deny making! Perhaps you need to go look up the meaning of 'fallacy', as you give no sign of using the term correctly?
    Last edited by Trumble; 09-06-2010 at 03:44 AM.
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    Re: In response to Hawking's new stated position on God

    Duplicate post again, sorry. Not quite sure what happened there!
    Last edited by Trumble; 09-06-2010 at 03:47 AM.
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    Re: In response to Hawking's new stated position on God

    As said before, if Theunis Bates has misquoted and misrepresented Hawkings, then it will doesn't change a thing except the name of Hawkings in the OP. The argument is on the line of reasoning quoted and represented in Theunis Bates article. All I see is comments on the OP like forth, waffle, irksome, miserably failed, not read the book which are just attack on the OP without substance and attempt to dodge the actual arguments in the OP... interesting!
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    Re: In response to Hawking's new stated position on God

    format_quote Originally Posted by FS123 View Post
    As said before, if Theunis Bates has misquoted and misrepresented Hawkings, then it will doesn't change a thing except the name of Hawkings in the OP. The argument is on the line of reasoning quoted and represented in Theunis Bates article. All I see is comments on the OP like forth, waffle, irksome, miserably failed, not read the book which are just attack on the OP without substance and attempt to dodge the actual arguments in the OP... interesting!
    Did you actually read the OP? If so, perhaps you could point out the 'line of reasoning' to which you refer? I see none either quoted or 'represented' by Bates. The only 'argument' presented regarding Hawking's new book is that of the OP himself in response to one quoted passage, i.e.

    "Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing," the pair write, in an extract published in today's London Times. "Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist. It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the Universe going."
    That is a representation of a claim (which we can assume represents one of Hawking's conclusions) not a 'line of reasoning'. WHY does the existence of "a law such as gravity" mean that the universe "can and will create itself from nothing"? That is presumably, among other things, what one of the world's foremost cosmologists sets out to explain (*), and any meaningful criticism of the book must address the lines of reasoning it uses to do so. I'm afraid just stating that Hawking must be wrong, that the reason why is so obvious it doesn't need explaining, and suggesting Hawking's conclusions are the result of fallacious reasoning when in complete ignorance of what that reasoning actually is, just won't do. Does that have enough 'substance' for you?!

    (*) presumably in terms intended to be comprehensible to the layman as this seems to be a 'popular science' book.
    Last edited by Trumble; 09-06-2010 at 07:47 AM.
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    Re: In response to Hawking's new stated position on God

    format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman View Post
    1. Since science is the study of nature, the only way it could ever have anything to do with a supernatural thing like God, let alone confirm or disconfirm it, is if God is really preternatural--and if anything in the world is truly supernatural, you'd think it would be God.
    You are essentially committing a fallacy here because you are making definitions and simply assuming them to be true. So for example, I don't feel your definition of science is adequate and indeed it is likely that all we or anyone else could do is arrive at a consensus not truth.

    2. Self-creation violates the very nature of cause and effect, the basis of all science and all reason, and in a very obvious way. That is why it should not bear explaining. But just as you accuse theists of simply referring to God in response to anything, so do a lot of people such as you just refer to purely theoretical scientific defiances of common sense and leave it at that, so there's no point pursuing this.
    I tend to agree with you re cause/effect but what I was saying was that one implication of M-Theory as I understand it is self-creation. But in science everything is provisional and subject to falsification. I don't think you can use the argument of common sense as lot's of science seem to defy that idea - quantum mechanics and many ultimately solid scientific ideas would have been cast on the scrap heap if that was an acceptable criteria - if one is not careful you/we make our own tiny minds the measure of all things. My point about God is that it is possible to invoke him and when you do that everything becomes possible but not as you say provable. But ultimately in religion we have to rely on revelation but by its nature all revelation is hearsay because we cannot check it with the source - at least I know of no way of doing that.

    4. Reasoning of any kind is tentative and subject to refutation. Science doesn’t hold a monopoly on that.
    This I think is not quite true in that one might reason flawlessly but have unprovable hypothesis - though you may have meant that. But science ultimately tries to prove its premises and generally it tells us how that might be done - if you like it tells us what data to go looking for whereas with the supernatural as yet it does not tell us what data we might go looking for.

    5. Giving patterns names is not the same thing as inducing what they are from what they ordinarily indicate.
    We have to give things names but you might note that we might also deduce in an a priori fashion also. But at least in science one can in principle predict outcomes and that of itself is how one might validate a falsify/theory

    6. That the idea of design is “unsatisfactory” in light of unfortunate occurrences happening in the world is just another one of those ridiculous chestnuts like the ones I spoke of in the OP. Even were there not any explanation for why a God with the usual traits attributed to him would allow them, it still remains that something is designed does not make it a wholly positive design. Just look at paintings or stories with negative content.
    You might be right but when one trusts in a God who is holy it is hard to then see how or why in your words non positive design occurs, it just seem unfair is all I am saying.

    7. “Self-organization” is not the same thing as self-creation. And anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of psychology or neurology would know that thoughts obviously do not come out of nowhere. They are caused, like any other material event.
    Well if any area of science is rudimentary it is psychology and neurology and any one with an iota of common sense knows that. The 'fact' seem to be that we just don't know how thoughts and ideas arise; if we did we could all generate brilliant ideas algorithmically. Consider Einstein or Maxwell in the early part of the last century both had theories that predicted phenomena that had not be observed by anyone so however they generated those ideas it was not from anything they actually knew about or where able to observe. So I don't know how these brilliant men thought but it seems more than just having the logic or mathematical skills (because plenty of others had those) and I don't know what one might call it: genius, insight, brainwave - who knows?
    Last edited by Hugo; 09-06-2010 at 01:40 PM.
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    Re: In response to Hawking's new stated position on God

    format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo View Post
    You are essentially committing a fallacy here because you are making definitions and simply assuming them to be true. So for example, I don't feel your definition of science is adequate and indeed it is likely that all we or anyone else could do is arrive at a consensus not truth.
    If science is not the study of the natural world, then what is it? How can the supernatural enter into it? This sort of purported ambiguity in the very notion of science is the sort of thing that allows young earth creationist pseudo-science to thrive.

    I tend to agree with you re cause/effect but what I was saying was that one implication of M-Theory as I understand it is self-creation. But in science everything is provisional and subject to falsification. I don't think you can use the argument of common sense as lot's of science seem to defy that idea - quantum mechanics and many ultimately solid scientific ideas would have been cast on the scrap heap if that was an acceptable criteria - if one is not careful you/we make our own tiny minds the measure of all things.
    It is simply amazing how so many people can boast rather than blush at the idea of modern science, by their own admission and interpretation, defying common sense. Our minds are the measure of what we conclude only--or should be the primary measure if not the sole one. Logic is the foundation of science, and therefore a necessary thing in it not to be faulty. If scientific "proofs" were to be produced that there are circles which are not round or seven-sided quadrangles, that would only mean that we should conclude it's the alleged proofs which are wrong, not our notion of the very mathematical and linguistic fundamentals of reason it defies.

    My point about God is that it is possible to invoke him and when you do that everything becomes possible but not as you say provable. But ultimately in religion we have to rely on revelation but by its nature all revelation is hearsay because we cannot check it with the source - at least I know of no way of doing that.
    If checking claims with the original source were the only means of confirming them, courtrooms and historians would have a lot harder time than they do.

    This I think is not quite true in that one might reason flawlessly but have unprovable hypothesis - though you may have meant that. But science ultimately tries to prove its premises and generally it tells us how that might be done - if you like it tells us what data to go looking for whereas with the supernatural as yet it does not tell us what data we might go looking for.
    Because it couldn't--any more than religion can tell us what data to look for in the secular sciences. And once again, slapping the label "force" on things doesn't prove a [bleep] thing, it just changes the semantics and creates (as perhaps intended to) the safe illusion of something real being communicated.

    We have to give things names but you might note that we might also deduce in an a priori fashion also. But at least in science one can in principle predict outcomes and that of itself is how one might validate a falsify/theory
    Predicting outcomes is proving things now? Throwing around the term "a priori" like that is just as pointless and inapplicable as throwing around the term "ad hominem". Scientific deductions have nothing whatever to do with the "slapping the lable 'force' on things and leaving it at that" issue: indeed, it seems to exist to prevent any deductions from being made. It's a lazy gloss-over.

    You might be right but when one trusts in a God who is holy it is hard to then see how or why in your words non positive design occurs, it just seem unfair is all I am saying.
    Your very words betray the emotional nature of your rationale. And were said rationale correct, it would still be starkly, even evasively, beside the point as far as this discussion goes. Even if God were an utter sadist and His design for the sole purpose of driving us crazy, it would not erase His existence. When we can agree to have established that rudimentary fact, then we can move on to the ethics of the being in question. It is useless to consider your opinion of a person's character when the issue at hand is whether he is real at all. And in this thread, very off topic.

    Well if any area of science is rudimentary it is psychology and neurology and any one with an iota of common sense knows that. The 'fact' seem to be that we just don't know how thoughts and ideas arise; if we did we could all generate brilliant ideas algorithmically. Consider Einstein or Maxwell in the early part of the last century both had theories that predicted phenomena that had not be observed by anyone so however they generated those ideas it was not from anything they actually knew about or where able to observe. So I don't know how these brilliant men thought but it seems more than just having the logic or mathematical skills (because plenty of others had those) and I don't know what one might call it: genius, insight, brainwave - who knows?
    We may not know how they arise, but they are still definitely caused events and not self-creating. We've been over the reasons why.
    Last edited by IAmZamzam; 09-06-2010 at 11:34 PM.
    In response to Hawking's new stated position on God

    Peace be to any prophets I may have mentioned above. Praised and exalted be my Maker, if I have mentioned Him. (Come to think of it praise Him anyway.)
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    Re: In response to Hawking's new stated position on God

    format_quote Originally Posted by FS123 View Post
    As said before, if Theunis Bates has misquoted and misrepresented Hawkings, then it will doesn't change a thing except the name of Hawkings in the OP. The argument is on the line of reasoning quoted and represented in Theunis Bates article. All I see is comments on the OP like forth, waffle, irksome, miserably failed, not read the book which are just attack on the OP without substance and attempt to dodge the actual arguments in the OP... interesting!
    Thank you for doing the job of repeating myself yet again for me.
    In response to Hawking's new stated position on God

    Peace be to any prophets I may have mentioned above. Praised and exalted be my Maker, if I have mentioned Him. (Come to think of it praise Him anyway.)
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    Re: In response to Hawking's new stated position on God

    format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ View Post


    and to you!


    Then why have you graced this section with your presence?



    Thank God for your presence here to point that out!



    Indeed!

    do you think it would be rude to -LOL!!!
    Last edited by Bintulislam; 09-07-2010 at 01:39 AM.
    In response to Hawking's new stated position on God

    Enjoining Good And Forbidding Evil!

    My Blog:
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