This thread is not to argue whether there are any miracles in the Quran, nor is it to argue whether or not there is a god...
There are really two separate issues. The issue of whether our universe was created by a conscious act, and if it was then also the issue of whether or not this consciousness has sent us instructions (theism) or is non intervening (deism.)
I'll start from the bottom up.
RELIGION
Why I don't accept a religion
What I observe in the world though is that many people make up many religions, it still happens today - I think Muslims will agree that Mormonism is man made. The technique used is that an individual will claim that god is speaking through them (directly or indirectly) and that on that authority everyone else should listen to them. When asked to present evidence of supernatural intervention they implore people to "believe out of faith" and "to demand proof is wicked and arrogant" - because natural beings cannot provide supernatural evidence.
Keeping in mind that this is the standard strategy by which humans create religion it is therefore impossible for me to believe any religion that came about in a similar fashion. It makes no sense to me that god would create a religion by utilising the exact same techniques of fraudsters.
What would it take me to accept a religion?
If I had opened the Quran and the first thing I saw was 299,792,458 I would today be a Muslim. This is the speed of light in a vacuum. Although there are alternative extraordinary explanations as to how this information could have arrived
God told Muhammad
An alien told Muhammad
A time traveller told Muhammad
I wouldn't really see any way of deciding which was the case, but the fact that the rest of the book claimed to be authored by the creator of the universe I think I could give the benefit of the doubt and accept it was from god Apart from knowing the speed of light in a vacuum it would also demonstrate knowledge of the future, because the number is presented in kilometres per hour, a unit of measurement which was not created at the time - so it would be a kind of "two birds with one stone" scenario.
GOD
Why I don't accept there is a god
To determine the cause of something we gather evidence. In nature this is simple as we have many instances from which to gather information, but with the universe we currently only have one to gather data from. We cannot see how this universe started, if it is the first universe, the only universe, and so on.
The answer to the question "How did the universe get here" for me is a resounding "I do not know", and I'd rather have no answer than the wrong answer. Not knowing is acceptable, accepting answers as truth without evidence ("truth without proof") is unacceptable.
For example, it's easy for someone to conclude that the universe was created, but why does this automatically mean it was created by "god"? There is no more or less evidence to suggest the origin of the universe was
One god
Two gods
Lots of gods
Another universe
Energy from some other dimension
etc
And if we say that whatever created it should be named "God" because god is a role rather than a being then we have no more evidence to suggest that
God was a conscious being rather than some natural process that creates universes.
God gave up its own existence in order to create the universe (the ultimate selfless sacrifice)
So with a lack of religious conviction there is no reason for me to say there is/isn't a god, or what the attributes of such a god should be. My atheism is merely a reflection of having a complete lack of conclusive evidence. All we have is an argument from ignorance - "I don't know how the universe got here.....therefore (insert religious belief of your choice)".
What would it take me to believe in a conscious creator of the universe?
If a being appeared in front of me and resurrected the dead body of my grandmother who said "Accept that this is god" I would accept that this is a very powerful being, but I would not also automatically accept it was responsible for creating the universe. As Arthur C Clarke once put it "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic".
The only evidence I can think of that would convince me that a concious being created the universe (if I have no evidence of a credible religion) would be a message within the creation itself. There might be a way to embed a message within the fabric of the universe after the fact, but I'd expect there would be a way of determining that any slight alteration to the message would result in an infeasible universe.
If we were to find a universal law of physic for example, and it was based entirely on a binary pattern which translated to "I am the creator" then I would accept intelligence created our universe. If the message went as far as to say "I am the creator, and (religious leader of your choice) was my messenger" then needless to say I would accept that religion too.
What about you?
My position is that I have no preference as to what the truth is, I only care that I possess it. Given the right level of evidence to match the incredibility of the claim I will accept anything.
Are you also more interested in possessing the truth than you are satisfying your preference for what format the truth should take? If so, what kind of evidence do you think would convince you that
Atheists
A: The universe was created by intelligence
B: This intelligence has sent us instructions in the form of a religion
Theists
A: You are following a false religion.
B: There is no god.
PS: In the interests of interesting discussion I'm only interested from hearing from atheists and theists who do not answer that there is nothing that could convince them that they are wrong.
Its like the question is that are you searching for God ? are you searching for His guidance or are you happy with what you got? because I would say even if God was proven, there would be atheists (that don't believe in that God), trying to escape Him because people simply love this life and most of them aren't interested in Hereafter or the Truth.
I believe the real question is not "Does God exist?" but rather "Do you want God to exist?".
Do you want pixies to exist? Do you want unicorns to exist? What about the Loch Ness Monster, do you want that to exist?
Those were rhetorical questions, I don't really care if you want them to exist or not :-) My point is that when you look at the subjects listed above you don't let your decision be biased by your desire to match a preconceived outcome. The difference between you and I is I make no exceptions, whereas you apparently do.
Would you make an exception for Zeus, or Thor, or Odin, or in fact any of the thousands of man made gods/religions that have come and gone since the beginning of recorded history? I doubt it, so it only makes sense to be consistent.
Personally I don't care what the truth is, I only care that I have it. If someone showed me conclusive proof of god + there being one god + muhammad being his messenger I would accept it without having any problems at all. On the other hand, if someone proved to me conclusively that lightening is thrown down from mount Olympus by Zeus I would accept that too without any problems.
I don't care what people prove to me, I just require proof before accepting it. If I live my life believing things on faith then there really is no way to know what should be accepted on faith and what should be rejected on faith.
So in answer to your question "Do you want god to exist" I can only answer - I have no preference.
Do you want pixies to exist? Do you want unicorns to exist? What about the Loch Ness Monster, do you want that to exist?
Those were rhetorical questions, I don't really care if you want them to exist or not :-) My point is that when you look at the subjects listed above you don't let your decision be biased by your desire to match a preconceived outcome. The difference between you and I is I make no exceptions, whereas you apparently do.
Would you make an exception for Zeus, or Thor, or Odin, or in fact any of the thousands of man made gods/religions that have come and gone since the beginning of recorded history? I doubt it, so it only makes sense to be consistent.
Personally I don't care what the truth is, I only care that I have it. If someone showed me conclusive proof of god + there being one god + muhammad being his messenger I would accept it without having any problems at all. On the other hand, if someone proved to me conclusively that lightening is thrown down from mount Olympus by Zeus I would accept that too without any problems.
I don't care what people prove to me, I just require proof before accepting it. If I live my life believing things on faith then there really is no way to know what should be accepted on faith and what should be rejected on faith.
So in answer to your question "Do you want god to exist" I can only answer - I have no preference.
i could honestly believe lightning was an act of god, what you interpret that act to represent is a different matter entirely.
same as the rain from the sky, natural disasters etc etc.
if you believe thor could call down lightning.. well that would make him a very formidable foe to those against him.
So I'm asking that are you on the road to search for the truth as well or just looking for what makes one a believer and one a disbeliever in God?
So do you want God or you're fine with your life? Thats my question, just curious.
I'm perfectly happy without god, but that doesn't affect my status at all. If god exists and wants a relationship with me then I too want one - but as I see no evidence of a god that is trying to have a relationship with me I do not morn the absence any more than I morn the absence of my ability to go for a ride on a winged horse; sure it would be nice but if it's not on offer...
I was a deist for many years of my life, I just didn't accept that there was a religion on Earth made by god. I saw religion as a way of permitting a minority to influence the actions of a majority, for people to have an esteemed status amongst their peers, etc. I had been indoctrinated as a child at school via school assemblies and via religious films on TV to believe that believe without proof (faith) is a wonderful thing to have, but then I heard about the Quran.
I can't quite remember how I initially heard about it, but I heard that it was the exact words of the creator of the universe. With this in mind there would not be a single error in the Quran, but above this it would be absolutely perfect so there wouldn't even be something in there which could have an alternative (and incorrect) explanation otherwise it would not be perfect. The mother of my daughter's school friend heard about my interest and told me that there were miracles in the Quran, information that we know now which could not have been known at the time.
Suddenly my "truth without proof" delusion was shattered. Every man made religion on Earth implores people to believe without proof, simply because natural beings such as humans cannot provide supernatural proof. It made perfect sense to me that if there is a god and this god wanted me to follow a specific religion then it would create a religion that not only stood out above the rest but one which also would be clearly impossible for a human to have created. The criteria I was given fit that bill perfectly:
1: No errors
2: No alternate meanings which could be taken as errors (therefore perfect)
3: Information no human could have known
Rather than having to pop down to Earth and show his face every 25 years or so, just leave a message which can ONLY be from god. It made perfect sense, so I read 3 translations of the Quran: Yusuf Ali, Mohsin, Pickthal.
I found it to be really dull, uninspiring, and simply reading it all the way through to the last chapter was probably the most difficult chore I have ever managed to complete. I looked at every miracle claim associated with the Quran that I could find, but with only a small amount of research into history etc I was able to explain every one of them.
I was very disappointed. Ultimately though I was now past the "faith is a virtue" phase of my life, those claims for the Quran led me not only to accept information only if supported by evidence, but ironically it ultimately led me to be an atheist - despite wanting it to be true.
the quran is not just a read through,
it is knowledge that when applied to life will show you what the world is.
relationships with god are always indirect... for all that i have found i know that the only meeting with god will be when i die..after the punishment in the grave and such.
i cant believe you disregarded the quran, its the book you could read for the rest of your life and would always give you something new to think about.
i cant believe you disregarded the quran, its the book you could read for the rest of your life and would always give you something new to think about.
Wasn't it supposed to impress me? Even just a little? It is supposedly the world's most perfect book after all.
Why I don't accept a religion etc etc
Why I don't accept there is a God etc etc ?
The answer to that is in the Quran
Surah 18:29
Say: (It is) the truth from the Lord of you (all). Then whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve. Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers Fire. Its tent encloseth them. If they ask for showers, they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces. Calamitous the drink and ill the resting-place!
Here we clearly see that people have a FREE WILL to believe or disbelieve in God.
Surah 73:19
Lo! This is a Reminder. Let him who will, then, choose a way unto his Lord.
Surah 25:57
Say: I ask of you no reward for this, save that whoso may, will choose a way unto his Lord.
Surah 80:11-12
Nay, but verily it is an Admonishment, So let whosoever will pay heed to it
Dear Brothers and Sisters, assalamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu,
Should we be spending a vast amount of time trying to convince atheists/disbelievers, of Allah’s existence, when it is Allah who guides? Our job is to give them the Message. The Rationalizer has already received it, yet he chooses to disbelieve. So the matter is between him and Allah. We should spend more time repenting, in worship, serving our parents and mankind, and gaining and spreading knowledge to benefit others. Rationalizer, may Allah guide you to the Truth. Ameen.
Wasn't it supposed to impress me? Even just a little? It is supposedly the world's most perfect book after all.
But the real deal is in Arabic apparently and also the fact that Quran is a recitation, not a written word, thats one of the reason that it survived for such a long time.
However you may look at this watch?v=3R-xz77Ur1o on youtube. You may wanna view other parts but the 5th part is good.
But the real deal is in Arabic apparently and also the fact that Quran is a recitation, not a written word, thats one of the reason that it survived for such a long time.
So how is that supposed to impress anyone other than people who read fluent Arabic? How is it supposed to impress me, a native English speaker? If I cannot pick up the book and see beauty in the meaning of the words what is my incentive to spend years learning Arabic?
So how is that supposed to impress anyone other than people who read fluent Arabic? How is it supposed to impress me, a native English speaker? If I cannot pick up the book and see beauty in the meaning of the words what is my incentive to spend years learning Arabic?
years LOL - nice way to exaggerate it
according to some reverts you can learn to read arabic in a week, to understand it a 2-3 month course will do
Last edited by aadil77; 12-28-2010 at 06:02 PM.
He it is Who sends blessings on you, as do His angels, that He may bring you out from the depths of Darkness into Light: and He is Full of Mercy to the Believers. [Quran {33:43}] www.QuranicAudio.com www.Quran.com
Do you want pixies to exist? Do you want unicorns to exist? What about the Loch Ness Monster, do you want that to exist?
Those were rhetorical questions, I don't really care if you want them to exist or not :-) My point is that when you look at the subjects listed above you don't let your decision be biased by your desire to match a preconceived outcome. The difference between you and I is I make no exceptions, whereas you apparently do.
.
How ironic, it is you who wanted to match a preconceived outcome.
What it will take for to to believe is to remove ANY sickness within you. You need to know that God does not need your worship, you NEED to worship God to have peace of mind here and to have a share of the hereafter. Do you love this world more than the hereafter? If you don't worship God, you will only be wronging yourself. You're not deceiving us and not the least harm are you doing to God. If you don't know God, you have forgotten yourself. YOU speak about fantasy, because YOU left reality. We are consistent our posts reflect that, we're only speaking about God. How many fantastical ideas do you have? Whats coming next?
"There are those who reason well, but they are greatly outnumbered by those who reason badly." - Galileo
"It is true, that a little philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion; for while the mind of man looketh upon second causes scattered, it may sometimes rest in them, and go no further; but when it beholdeth the chain of them confederate, and linked together, it must needs fly to Providence and Deity." Sir Francis Bacon
"Philosophy [nature] is written in that great book which ever is before our eyes -- I mean the universe -- but we cannot understand it if we do not first learn the language and grasp the symbols in which it is written. The book is written in mathematical language, and the symbols are triangles, circles and other geometrical figures, without whose help it is impossible to comprehend a single word of it; without which one wanders in vain through a dark labyrinth." - Galileo Galilei
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." - Galileo Galilei
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them."- Galileo Galilei
according to some reverts you can learn to read arabic in a week, to understand it a 2-3 month course will do
1: Learning to phonetically read Arabic is no use, so the 1 week quote is irrelevant.
2: In 2-3 months most people will learn basic sentences such as "Where do you live?" and "Where are you from?" - I know, I've been on one.
A minimum of a year for most people, and to understand deeply a lot longer. So, where is my incentive to learn Arabic? The meaning of the words in English didn't inspire me to spend a year of my life learning another language just in case it's worth doing. There are plenty of other religions with other languages that both you and I would not spend a year or more learning "just in case" there is anything to their claims - so why should I make an exception for Arabic?
1: Learning to phonetically read Arabic is no use, so the 1 week quote is irrelevant.
2: In 2-3 months most people will learn basic sentences such as "Where do you live?" and "Where are you from?" - I know, I've been on one.
A minimum of a year for most people, and to understand deeply a lot longer. So, where is my incentive to learn Arabic? The meaning of the words in English didn't inspire me to spend a year of my life learning another language just in case it's worth doing. There are plenty of other religions with other languages that both you and I would not spend a year or more learning "just in case" there is anything to their claims - so why should I make an exception for Arabic?
I was replying in response to what you said to saad17, you don't need to understand the arabic in the Quran to see the way it flows as a recitation
He it is Who sends blessings on you, as do His angels, that He may bring you out from the depths of Darkness into Light: and He is Full of Mercy to the Believers. [Quran {33:43}] www.QuranicAudio.com www.Quran.com
I was replying in response to what you said to saad17, you don't need to understand the arabic in the Quran to see the way it flows as a recitation
Nor a limerick, nor a poem, nor a song. For me beauty alone can never be a sign of divinity because beauty is subjective whereas the properties of god are apparently objective.
If god is fair why would it base it's proof on beauty and then not let everyone find it beautiful?
We claim to know the truth and we can justify it using logic and reason.
Do you really want to know the truth? Or do you love to follow your own whims and desires, if so you are self-destructive. God could've just put you in Hell, but He is the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. He knows you more than you know yourself. He has more knowledge than the little than use possess. Are those that do good equal to those that do bad, will there not be a day of recompense. Can you evade death. You know what the truth is, like you know who your father is, but you are stubborn, ungrateful. Stop being so stubborn, only then your mind will be at ease and you will be content, because until you do that you will remain blinded.
I haven't merged or replaced reality with fantasy. I bear witness that there is none worthy of worship except God, and i do not want to lie, so i don't ever see a way i will stop believing.
We have sufficient evidence all proving the existence of God but because you can't prove otherwise(that God doesn’t exist) you conclude that God doesn't exist. Don't you see this is foolish behaviour.
Don't you just really want to follow you whims and desires and are therefore ready to decline the authenticity of anything that goes against that. Are you really rational?
I believe in the entire Quran, if you can make something like the Qur’an, I will stop believing in the Author of the Book.
The author of the Book challenges you. If you fail then fear the fire
Nor a limerick, nor a poem, nor a song. For me beauty alone can never be a sign of divinity because beauty is subjective whereas the properties of god are apparently objective.
If god is fair why would it base it's proof on beauty and then not let everyone find it beautiful?
Which is why I've reiterated this to you many times before; we do not look at single aspects of islam 'alone' in order to prove it as the truth, again these are small things which are there to make you think - not alone try to prove the existence of a deity
He it is Who sends blessings on you, as do His angels, that He may bring you out from the depths of Darkness into Light: and He is Full of Mercy to the Believers. [Quran {33:43}] www.QuranicAudio.com www.Quran.com
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.
When you create an account, we remember exactly what you've read, so you always come right back where you left off. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and share your thoughts. Sign Up
Apart from knowing the speed of light in a vacuum it would also demonstrate knowledge of the future, because the number is presented in kilometres per hour, a unit of measurement which was not created at the time - so it would be a kind of "two birds with one stone" scenario.
Quote
Hide
Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.
Bookmarks