[URL="http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/082.sbt.html#008.082.810"]Salam,
I'm a 25 year old male, and have been a devout muslim for most of my life. Like everyone, I've made my fair share of mistakes, and asked for forgiveness afterwards. I've lived in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan for several years, and I've never questioned what I've been taught and what I've read in the Islamic texts that I've had access to over the years. Until now.
Recently, I was sent a link to a video of a young girl being stoned to death in a public square in northern Iraq, and this had a profound effect on me. It was almost too difficult to watch, but I felt like it was my duty to do so since the people engaging in the brutal killing chanted cries of "Allahu Akbar" and thus proclaiming themselves to be representatives of Islam. Essentially they beat this poor 17 year old girl to death with stones and then finished her off with a cinder block to the head, because she had committed zina with a non-Muslim man. I felt dirty and wrong from just watching it.
I spent many hours researching the views of Islam on stoning to death as capital punishment, hoping that I was misinformed about it being allowed in Islam. Unfortunately, this was not the case. My suspicions were confirmed that while it isn't mentioned in the Quran, several aHadith related by Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim give us quotes from the Prophet (PBUH) recommending stoning to death as punishment for such offenders.
(For example, here: USC link)
Now, I am not sure what to do as this is causing many conflicting views within my mind and heart about what I've believed and followed all along. I can post the video of the unfortunate young soul who was stoned to death on video, but I refrain from doing so since there might be younger children on the forums. I will gladly send you the link if you send me a private message.
If there are any learned Islamic scholars on this forum, I would love to hear your thoughts on my dilemma, as well as the thoughts of my fellow brothers and sisters. This is not something, in my opinion, that I can easily reconcile. We are supposed to be bringers of peace, and murdering young women in this fashion seems wrong to me regardless of what she did or planned to do.
Allaah knows best, the reason why the number of witnesses is high may be so people don't easily accuse chaste women of commiting a major sin like that which would lead to their dishonor. Infact, we know that these verses about the witnesses were revealed at the time when the hypocrite - Abdullah ibn Ubayy accused Aa'isha (the wife of Allaah's Messenger - may Allaah be pleased with her) of this crime. So to accuse a believing woman who is known for her chastity is a major sin in the sight of Allaah.
Second, the punishment is severe for those who are willing to do it in the open, in public. We know that people may do the sin in their homes, but they won't ever want to do it in public out of fear of severe punishment. And this is what Islaam calls against, because we know that one of the reasons why the 'west' has alot of immoralities is because of the fact that the sins are allowed to be done in public, and others imitate them in that without fear of punishment.
Those who do the sin inside their homes secretly - their sin is between them and Allaah, and they might repent and change their ways. But atleast the sin doesn't become public, and others won't copy them in that still, which means that the immorality is hidden. But if immorality spreads - thats when society breaks down as a whole.
also , i dont think the requirement for 4 witnesses is always necessary for the punishment to happen. it was just a way of making sure the act had occurred .and remember , we're talking about over 13 centuries ago where they didnt have say a DNA test and whatnot.
Allaah knows best, the reason why the number of witnesses is high may be so people don't easily accuse chaste women of commiting a major sin like that which would lead to their dishonor. Infact, we know that these verses about the witnesses were revealed at the time when the hypocrite - Abdullah ibn Ubayy accused Aa'isha (the wife of Allaah's Messenger - may Allaah be pleased with her) of this crime. So to accuse a believing woman who is known for her chastity is a major sin in the sight of Allaah.
.
Asalaamo Alaikum:
This what my mind is thinking again and again (might be wrong).The actual Aya is :
وَالَّذِينَ يَرْمُونَ الْمُحْصَنَاتِ ثُمَّ لَمْ يَأْتُوا بِأَرْبَعَةِ شُهَدَاء فَاجْلِدُوهُمْ ثَمَانِينَ جَلْدَةً وَلَا تَقْبَلُوا لَهُمْ شَهَادَةً أَبَدًا وَأُوْلَئِكَ هُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَ﴿24:4﴾
(24:4) As for those persons who charge chaste women with false accusations but do not produce four witnesses, flog them with eighty stripes and never accept their evidence afterwards, for they themselves are transgressors.
Actually ,the evidence for four eye witnesses is for the charge against "chaste" persons not for every one.
Let us suppose reputation of some person is not good in this respect and the circumstancial and scientific evidence proves his crime ,then He/she should be punished accordingly ,no need of four eye witnesses because this is meant so that people should not charge those righteous people to disgrace or defame them.
This condition of four witnesses is for protection of righteous (People of good fame and character ) but to prove the crime.
Just a thought
Who can be more irrational than those who say: Design is possible without a designer ??
There are people who are sincere in their repentance (tawba) so Allaah knows best.
I'm not going to say anymore really because i don't know the answers to the other questions specifically, i'm sorry. Allaah knows best.
Assalaamo Alaikum:
Ok that is fine ,this matter needs further study.Anyway but do help in one respect.
If you come across some narration in which the punishment of fornication or adultery is implented on the "basis of Four eye witness" ,please do post it.Because I am in search of some such narration .
Best of luck
Who can be more irrational than those who say: Design is possible without a designer ??
Assalaamo Alaikum:
Ok that is fine ,this matter needs further study.Anyway but do help in one respect.
If you come across some narration in which the punishment of fornication or adultery is implented on the "basis of Four eye witness" ,please do post it.Because I am in search of some such narration .
Best of luck
I think there hasn't ever been any within our history as bro Ansar stated:
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
I know that for the person who confesses they are not put in a pit and are allowed to retract their confession at any time and escape the punishment. But not someone who is actually convicted by four witnesses in public, and we have never had such a case in all of islamic history.
Salam again,
So I have been pondering what I've read in this thread for the past few hours, and I am still having a lot of trouble reconciling what is supposed to be a peaceful way of life with recommendation of punishment that brutal, no matter how unlikely or impossible the circumstances. I am having a hard time seeing how beating someone with stones until they die from the injuries sustained is a reasonable punishment in any situation, no matter how many witnesses there may be.
It is stated that it is a deterrent. That I can get on board with, but the fact of the matter is that under some circumstances, regardless of how unlikely, the stoning to death of a young man or woman can take place.
We are supposed to represent peace and forgiveness, so how do we reconcile it with pieces of our laws such as this?
Think to yourself, would you be okay with throwing a palm sized stone at a female loved one if she had fornicated in a public setting and four, ten, or one hundred witnesses had seen her do so? Regardless of how impossible this may be to each and every one of us, would you be able to justify throwing stone after stone at her till she died from the wounds?
Salam again,
So I have been pondering what I've read in this thread for the past few hours, and I am still having a lot of trouble reconciling what is supposed to be a peaceful way of life with recommendation of punishment that brutal, no matter how unlikely or impossible the circumstances. I am having a hard time seeing how beating someone with stones until they die from the injuries sustained is a reasonable punishment in any situation, no matter how many witnesses there may be.
It is stated that it is a deterrent. That I can get on board with, but the fact of the matter is that under some circumstances, regardless of how unlikely, the stoning to death of a young man or woman can take place.
We are supposed to represent peace and forgiveness, so how do we reconcile it with pieces of our laws such as this?
Think to yourself, would you be okay with throwing a palm sized stone at a female loved one if she had fornicated in a public setting and four, ten, or one hundred witnesses had seen her do so? Regardless of how impossible this may be to each and every one of us, would you be able to justify throwing stone after stone at her till she died from the wounds?
I would like to hear thoughts on this.
Wasalam
Assalamo Alaikum:
First of all I apologize for one thing that I do not know your religion.Whether you are talking from a Muslim point of view or a non muslim.'
If you are a muslim ,then one thing is sure that one has to accept any legistation which is ordered by Almight Allah or the Holy prophet.(I am not talking particularly about this stoning punishment).The Holy Quran says:
الزَّانِيَةُ وَالزَّانِي فَاجْلِدُوا كُلَّ وَاحِدٍ مِّنْهُمَا مِئَةَ جَلْدَةٍ وَلَا تَأْخُذْكُم بِهِمَا رَأْفَةٌ فِي دِينِ اللَّهِ إِن كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ وَلْيَشْهَدْ عَذَابَهُمَا طَائِفَةٌ مِّنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ﴿24:2﴾
(24:2) The woman and the man guilty of fornication, flog each one of them with a hundred stripes *2 - and let not any pity for them restrain you in regard to a matter prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day, *3 and let, some of the believers witness the punishment inflicted on them. *4
If one starts thinking on these lines then how will be punishment of murder can be enforced which is death.
You may argue that some counteries have abolished the death punishment from their legislation thinking that it is inhuman punishment.
But abloshing this death penalty by itself "inhuman'.How ,look at this scenario
A person who is a serial killer and brutal ,takes a friend of him along with him and enters a house and kills all members of the family ruthlessly.Is this attitude of him a "human " attitude.Does he need any sympathy?? If he is not hanged because of these prevailing "human rights" then ,don't you think the rights of that murdered family are violated.Is this attitude to spare the criminal human or inhuman.
Next scenario ,the same type of person commits a gang rape with a lady (forcefully ) ,if he is stoned to death how can you call it as "inhuman".Was his crime "human".
Islam is based on "Adle" (عدل ).
A principle has been laid down:
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ كُتِبَ عَلَيْكُمُ الْقِصَاصُ فِي الْقَتْلَى الْحُرُّ بِالْحُرِّ وَالْعَبْدُ بِالْعَبْدِ وَالأُنثَى بِالأُنثَى فَمَنْ عُفِيَ لَهُ مِنْ أَخِيهِ شَيْءٌ فَاتِّبَاعٌ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَأَدَاء إِلَيْهِ بِإِحْسَانٍ ذَلِكَ تَخْفِيفٌ مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ وَرَحْمَةٌ فَمَنِ اعْتَدَى بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ فَلَهُ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ﴿2:178﴾
(2:178) O Believers, the lawn *176 of retribution has been prescribed for you in cases of murder; if a free man commits a murder, the free man shall he punished for it and a slave for a slave : likewise if a woman is guilty of murder the same shall he accountable for it. *177 But in case the injured brother *178 is willing to show leniency to the murderer, the blood money should he decided in accordance with the common law *179 and the murderer should pay it in a genuine way. This is an allowance and mercy from your Lord. Now there shall be a painful torment for anyone who transgresses the limits after this. *180 O men of understanding.
I have no idea why there is so much "hoo'haa " on islamic punishments.
Ton of biological weapons = which make millions of people incurably sick
Tons of chemical weapons = which can paralyze and suffocate millions of people
Tons of Daisy Cutter bombs = which can penetrate even Hardest possible rocks
Tons of Atomic bombs and Hydrogen bombs and neutron bombs whic can annihate the whole world in a fraction of a second (one scene was created in 1945 on Heroshima and Nagasaki).
Is all these weapon arsenal for the "service" of humanity and these are "human"??
How much protest against them has been launched in the media.
Or only Islamic punishments are the only "issue" in this world at which whole world media is directing its guns.
Just curious.
Best of luck
Who can be more irrational than those who say: Design is possible without a designer ??
Secondly ,let us suppose ,a woman is married and her husband is abroad for two yrs.She becomes pregnant.So
Naturally she has committed adultery
I have one word for you- RAPE.
format_quote Originally Posted by asadxyz
Actually ,the evidence for four eye witnesses is for the charge against "chaste" persons not for every one.
Let us suppose reputation of some person is not good in this respect and the circumstancial and scientific evidence proves his crime ,then He/she should be punished accordingly ,no need of four eye witnesses because this is meant so that people should not charge those righteous people to disgrace or defame them.
This condition of four witnesses is for protection of righteous (People of good fame and character ) but to prove the crime.
Just a thought
As far as I am aware, proof other than four witnesses or confession can not result with stoning being applied, but there can be other punishments such as imprisonment...
As far as I am aware, proof other than four witnesses or confession can not result with stoning being applied, but there can be other punishments such as imprisonment...
__________________
One crime cannot have two different punishments.
Crime is either comitted or not comitted (proved or not proved).There is nothing in between .
If comitted (proved) = Actual punishment implemented
If not comitted (not proved) = No punishment at all
which law you are stating??
Probably you are stating to those crimes in which Shariah has not put any punishment and left on the discretion of the "Qazi".He can punish according to his discretion.But about Hudood ,how can you change them.
Just a thought
Best of luck
Who can be more irrational than those who say: Design is possible without a designer ??
It's heartening that a small percentage of muslims are questioning the validity of stoning to death as a punishment in the modern world.
Looking at society and life in the 600's or even the 1600's it is a perfectly acceptable form of penal coercion.
In Britain we hanged our last witch in the 1800's, burned at the stake in the 1700's and hung drew and quartered in the 1600's.
God knows what we did in 600, probably flayed people alive. The British army only ceased flogging in the late 1800's but it was down to 6 strokes of the whip.
I think society has progressed in the west. I'm actually in favor of the death penalty for pre-meditated murder. I'm in a minority.
We are, or should not be here, debating that "ahh well it's only a few people really", we should be deciding if it's a acceptable form of moral behaviour.
Easy answer is yes. The Prophet decreed it. A muslim cant argue against that. They can argue that it's acceptable because fornication is worthy of the death penalty. For a lot of Muslims brought up in western society, this is ringing very hollow. Escpecially if you see what stoning entails. it's not a rock killing someone cleanly, its bodies being ripped to peices by a baying crowd for showing "weakness".
The "problem" is that you cant change whats written, and so no matter how much mankind progresses in culture, art, learning and technology, you will under Islam have teenage girls being ripped to bits by rocks.
Not an easy one for, otherwise peaceful, Muslims to deal with. I wish you all the best in coming to terms with it in your own conciounce.
Occupation: The term of control of a territory by foreign military forces: Iraq 2003-2005 Liberation:when something or someone is freed: Operation Telic 2003
Firstly, I am indeed Muslim, but I like to investigate what I believe in and the legislations we are commanded to follow. Since Islam is meant to be a logical religion, it does stand up to scrutiny and that is the purpose of this thread.
Secondly, just to clarify, I am not against the death penalty, and feel like is befitting for many crimes some of which you have mentioned. It is the brutality of the method of execution that I have a problem with. There are other ways to execute a person, such as beheading, hanging, etc. Why stoning to death? Why must we be brutal in the administering of what is supposed to be a just punishment? Additionally, there is a bit of a difference between a serial killer, gang rapist, and the scenario being discussed in this thread, no?
Additionally, you have not answered my hypothetical question about whether you would be okay with throwing stones at a female loved one if she had done something similar and had enough witnesses to prove her guilt. Would you be able to go through with this, without feeling bad?
format_quote Originally Posted by asadxyz
Assalamo Alaikum:
First of all I apologize for one thing that I do not know your religion.Whether you are talking from a Muslim point of view or a non muslim.'
If you are a muslim ,then one thing is sure that one has to accept any legistation which is ordered by Almight Allah or the Holy prophet.(I am not talking particularly about this stoning punishment).The Holy Quran says:
الزَّانِيَةُ وَالزَّانِي فَاجْلِدُوا كُلَّ وَاحِدٍ مِّنْهُمَا مِئَةَ جَلْدَةٍ وَلَا تَأْخُذْكُم بِهِمَا رَأْفَةٌ فِي دِينِ اللَّهِ إِن كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ وَلْيَشْهَدْ عَذَابَهُمَا طَائِفَةٌ مِّنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ﴿24:2﴾
(24:2) The woman and the man guilty of fornication, flog each one of them with a hundred stripes *2 - and let not any pity for them restrain you in regard to a matter prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day, *3 and let, some of the believers witness the punishment inflicted on them. *4
If one starts thinking on these lines then how will be punishment of murder can be enforced which is death.
You may argue that some counteries have abolished the death punishment from their legislation thinking that it is inhuman punishment.
But abloshing this death penalty by itself "inhuman'.How ,look at this scenario
A person who is a serial killer and brutal ,takes a friend of him along with him and enters a house and kills all members of the family ruthlessly.Is this attitude of him a "human " attitude.Does he need any sympathy?? If he is not hanged because of these prevailing "human rights" then ,don't you think the rights of that murdered family are violated.Is this attitude to spare the criminal human or inhuman.
Next scenario ,the same type of person commits a gang rape with a lady (forcefully ) ,if he is stoned to death how can you call it as "inhuman".Was his crime "human".
Islam is based on "Adle" (عدل ).
A principle has been laid down:
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ كُتِبَ عَلَيْكُمُ الْقِصَاصُ فِي الْقَتْلَى الْحُرُّ بِالْحُرِّ وَالْعَبْدُ بِالْعَبْدِ وَالأُنثَى بِالأُنثَى فَمَنْ عُفِيَ لَهُ مِنْ أَخِيهِ شَيْءٌ فَاتِّبَاعٌ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَأَدَاء إِلَيْهِ بِإِحْسَانٍ ذَلِكَ تَخْفِيفٌ مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ وَرَحْمَةٌ فَمَنِ اعْتَدَى بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ فَلَهُ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ﴿2:178﴾
(2:178) O Believers, the lawn *176 of retribution has been prescribed for you in cases of murder; if a free man commits a murder, the free man shall he punished for it and a slave for a slave : likewise if a woman is guilty of murder the same shall he accountable for it. *177 But in case the injured brother *178 is willing to show leniency to the murderer, the blood money should he decided in accordance with the common law *179 and the murderer should pay it in a genuine way. This is an allowance and mercy from your Lord. Now there shall be a painful torment for anyone who transgresses the limits after this. *180 O men of understanding.
I have no idea why there is so much "hoo'haa " on islamic punishments.
Ton of biological weapons = which make millions of people incurably sick
Tons of chemical weapons = which can paralyze and suffocate millions of people
Tons of Daisy Cutter bombs = which can penetrate even Hardest possible rocks
Tons of Atomic bombs and Hydrogen bombs and neutron bombs whic can annihate the whole world in a fraction of a second (one scene was created in 1945 on Heroshima and Nagasaki).
Is all these weapon arsenal for the "service" of humanity and these are "human"??
How much protest against them has been launched in the media.
Or only Islamic punishments are the only "issue" in this world at which whole world media is directing its guns.
Just curious.
Best of luck
Firstly, I am indeed Muslim, but I like to investigate what I believe in and the legislations we are commanded to follow. Since Islam is meant to be a logical religion, it does stand up to scrutiny and that is the purpose of this thread.
Secondly, just to clarify, I am not against the death penalty, and feel like is befitting for many crimes some of which you have mentioned. It is the brutality of the method of execution that I have a problem with. There are other ways to execute a person, such as beheading, hanging, etc. Why stoning to death? Why must we be brutal in the administering of what is supposed to be a just punishment? Additionally, there is a bit of a difference between a serial killer, gang rapist, and the scenario being discussed in this thread, no?
Additionally, you have not answered my hypothetical question about whether you would be okay with throwing stones at a female loved one if she had done something similar and had enough witnesses to prove her guilt. Would you be able to go through with this, without feeling bad?
Asalaamo Alaikum:
Be sure one thing that religions are divine knowledge and these not based on human thoughts that we start measuring its rules and regulation on the basis of our own wisdom and thought. Prophethood starts at the point where human wisdom ends.
No doubt Islam is called a Deen of nature but it does not mean we standardize its values and rulings according to our sentiments.
Sentiments tell you do not kill your relatives but when the question of Allah's Deen comes then Companions of the Holy Prophet encounter with their own relativs (blood relations) and fight occurs.
This is question of "Emaan".
As you are posing question of Brutality ,these are rulings of Islam.If anyone thinks that these inhuman ,he is not forced to embrace Islam.But ,after knowing all Pros and Cons enters into Islam ,he is bound to abide by and accept them as such.
My Question: why are your sympathies with the criminals ??
Law means :If --------,then ---------.
If someone wants to avoid consequences of "then ",he should avoid" If ".
E.g. If some country has the law : If you violate the traffic signal intentionally ,then you will be stoned to death.
If I want to avoid the consequences of this law I should not violate the traffic signal,instead of cursing and criticizing it.So simple it is.
Being an extreme penalty it has some sentimental aspects. But,according to those circles by which you seem to be impressed ,even wearing Veils by the Islamic women is an "inhuman matter".
Attacking trading center is "inhuman" but killing thousands of Muslims is exactly "human".
Anyway best of luck
Who can be more irrational than those who say: Design is possible without a designer ??
As you are posing question of Brutality ,these are rulings of Islam.If anyone thinks that these inhuman ,he is not forced to embrace Islam.But ,after knowing all Pros and Cons enters into Islam ,he is bound to abide by and accept them as such.
Fine for Converts.
So a child growing up as a muslim is not forced to embrace Islam?
Whats the proceedure for leaving the faith please?
Occupation: The term of control of a territory by foreign military forces: Iraq 2003-2005 Liberation:when something or someone is freed: Operation Telic 2003
If I want to avoid the consequences of this law I should not violate the traffic signal,instead of cursing and criticizing it.So simple it is.
Being an extreme penalty it has some sentimental aspects. But,according to those circles by which you seem to be impressed ,even wearing Veils by the Islamic women is an "inhuman matter".
Attacking trading center is "inhuman" but killing thousands of Muslims is exactly "human".
Anyway best of luck
where have i said i am impressed by any circles? you fail to read my posts in their entirety. i am not refuting or failing to accept any Islamic rulings. I am simply scrutinizing. it is always said that Islam should stand up to logical scrutiny, and that is what I am trying to do.
Attacking trading center is "inhuman" but killing thousands of Muslims is exactly "human".
Anyway best of luck
It's back to the old chestnut of intent.
Hundreds of innocent Muslims have been killed in crossfire, BY ACCIDENT, from US and perhaps even UK bullets, Although thats doubtful.
Tens of thousands have been shot DELIBERATLY or blown to shreds by Muslim death squads and terrorists.
Three thousand Yank civilians were not killed by accident. It was a deliberate attack.
If the west could have acheived it's aim without a drop of innocent blood spilled it would have.
If the Terrorists could acheive their aim....they would kill and not stop killing anyone in their path, on buses, tube trains, schools, hospitals......
Just for once,get off this "the west thinks it's ok to kill muslim innocents"...if we did think that, we would carpet bomb a city evry day into tiny atoms.
We have nukes. Why havnt we "Wiped iran off the map" or "Driven the Saudi's into the sea"
Occupation: The term of control of a territory by foreign military forces: Iraq 2003-2005 Liberation:when something or someone is freed: Operation Telic 2003
For your research I would strongly recommend the material found on http://www.islamtoday.com . They probably have the most detailed information on Islamic criminal law in english on the internet and the scholars who provide the fatawa are familiar with the Saudi laws as well, and consequently they would be able to provide an authentic comparison if you asked them about any specific issue.
25:36 And the true servants of the Most Merciful are those who walk the earth with humility and when the ignorant address them, they respond with words of peace.
*2 - and let not any pity for them restrain you in regard to a matter prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day, *3 and let, some of the believers witness the punishment inflicted on them. *4
Just to clarify akhi the pity doesn't mean we shouldn't feel sorry for them;
(Let not pity withhold you in their case, in a punishment prescribed by Allah,) Meaning, with a ruling prescribed by Allah. So the meaning of the Ayah is: "Do not feel too sorry for them where the laws of Allah are established.'' This does not mean that we should not naturally feel pity when carrying out the punishment. What is prohibited here is the kind of pity that may make the judge ignore the punishment altogether.
Barney, please don't push the thread onto other topics when the thread is about fornication, if you want to read about the ruling on apostasy so much, then simply go to the thread:
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