Hello MaskedMufti,
Sorry it took me this long to react on your post. We had a long weekend here in Germany and we took the opportunity to visit my parents in the Netherlands, so I didn't had a chance to react properly. Sorry for that.
You said, Ignorance can be "A" root for some evil, but certainly not "THE root of all evil". I think you are definitely wrong. Give me one example where ignorance was not the root of some evil.
Yes about that. That was more like a gut-feeling claim from me. I never heard of that claim and I had to react on it so that was my initial claim.
So, now that I had some time to think about it, I would like to take that claim back, and double down on it with this claim:
"evil has no link with ignorance. The root of it is the ability to choose." So every example of evil you have in your head, is an example of pure choice and it is not a matter of ignorance.
Let me elaborate why I made that claim:
We have to define "evil" first.
Evil is something immoral and wicked. Unfortunately, the word "moral" as a lot of people know is something subjective. It changes with time and society. different societies or different generations of the same societies can consider different things as Immoral and therefore "evil".
We all know the perfect example of nazi Germany in WOII and what happened there because of what they considered as having proper morals and values. That was definitely bad morals and evil.
So my view: morals and values need to be objective. it needs to be unlinked from time, space, culture and everything and needs to be dictated from 1 source
about ignorance, which is a fuzzy term also:
"lack of knowledge or information" can be split into two: ignorance becauce of the lack of resources or opportunity of perhaps capacity of the individual to educate himself properly, or ignorance out of laziness or lack of interest (dont want to, dont need to)
From the islamic point of view, One should always try to educate himself as much as possible. staying ignorant by choice is a bad thing in Islam.
and an evil act is only considered evil and sinful in Islam if the individual deliberately chose to do it. So Allah will not punish someone if that individual has done something unmoral by accident, if he didn't know better, or couldn't know better. Again if we talk about, that individual was ignorant because he didn't have the chance to be educated.
In other words: Islam cuts the link between evil and ignorance and links it to freedom of will.
You have made a long post. Thank you for spending time to do that. You have listed things as "First..." and "Second..." and so on. But I have to address your "first of all comment". Just because I posted something simplistic does not mean there is a great deal of thought behind it that I have not expressed.
Yes, I like to react properly and I tend to react on all points. Similarly I like when people react on all my points and not just a part of my reaction.
I do not know about the great deal of thought behind it. I only have that one sentence and I reacted on that.
You are right. Personal experience do not make things true or false. Plato can be wrong, yes. So what is your epistemology you use for determining what is true or false? How do you go about determining what is true or what is false?
True and false. That is a whole different subject. "Truth" is something different as "absolute truth". Truth is carried by evidence and knowledge. truth can be dependent on time. what is true now, can be wrong after some time...this is quite difficult to explain.
As we know, our knowledge and science evolves over time. and as we know more and more, the truths we knew are not accurate anymore so we have to adopt new truths.
an example is newtons laws which were so useful to us that it made us space travel possible. and then, Einstein comes along and claims that in quantum world, newtons laws are not true anymore.
So science, and truth as we know is just an acceptable appoximation of the absolute truth. we always persue this absolute truth but we have to settle with only the part that we can understand so far.
I will say this. In every case we can examine throughout history, where we can say evil caused something to happen, if we examine it closely, the root cause of that evil was ignorance.
It can lay on the basis, but again, it is only considered evil if it was done deliberately.
So please pick an example of evil and let's discuss. In every case you can give me, we can break it down to the cause of that evil and it will be ignorance. We can put Plato's idea to the test and see if it is true. People have done that. I have never heard of anyone saying he was wrong. Have you?
Lets see: how about rape? I would like to see how you can break that one down to ignorance.
Plato was not just making this up whole cloth out of thin air. There was perception and thought behind it. So let's, right now, apply some perception and thought. You tell me. Give me an example of evil and let's see for ourselves if ignorance was the actual root of it.
another one: robbery? murder?
I asked you this. What is your method of determining what is true and what is false? What do you think of Occam's Razor, also known as the principle of parsimony? I have given you a lot of questions, but I imagine you will not bother to google it because you said you never heard of Plato and you also said you did not bother to google him.
I am a simple electric engineer and have 20+ years experience in engineering. I can tell you a lot about electricity or even science and technology in general. I want to see evidences or even proof for every theory or idea to accept.
Philosophy is too fuzzy for me. its about ideas and viewpoints, etc. I am not that much interested in such topics. That is why I do not know much about Plato. Of course I did hear about them, but it never moved me to have active troughts about it, so I never bothered to read about them.
I am not trying to change your mind or convince you of anything because that would be impossible. The only mind I can change is mine. I know I need to be humble and honest with myself. That is a noble way to be. Are you like that?
You can provide evidences and convincing arguments which CAN change minds actually. it is definitely not impossible. the only thing you actually need is to have an open mind...Are you like that?
"Too simplistic" means it is probably true according to Occom's Razor. I think Occom's Razor is right and has power.
No it doesn't. I like science and I definitely agree with Occom's Razor (now that I quickly googled it)...because that is what we do in science all the time. take the option with the smallest set of elements.
What I meant with "too simplistic" in this case is that I thought that claim was too shallow. not all elements were considered yet.
Occom's Razor means you have to consider all elements and aspects all the way to the root of both options and then take the one with the least of elements. that is in no way "simplistic".
Let me give you an example. I have had conversations with Mormon apologists. In order to defend their positions and opinions when I show them something is problematic in their religion; they have to layer on more and more outlandish excuses. And it is never-ending. I will spare you all the details, but you can see how complex their belief system and how much blind faith is required. The golden plates and it being handed over to an angel for safe keeping is just one thing. There is also the issue that their core belief has been debunked by DNA research by their own college professors. They contradict themselves and so that have to go so far as to say that because of some magic, both narratives are valid. The more I debate them, the more absurdities they have to layer on top of a growing mound. The simplest answer is usually true.
We do not have layers or excuses in Islam. dont worry about that. everything is based on logic, rationality and evidences. We do not do blind faith. If you allow yourself an open mind and do not lack the effort to investigate every question thoroughly (and not only look at answers from one side but try to find different sources to have an objective overview...I will guarantee you that you will accept it.
you just need to invest enough time and effort in it.
Anyway, let's stick to the topic at hand. I will repeat what I first said in this post. You said, Ignorance can be "A" root for some evil, but certainly not "THE root of all evil". I think you are definitely wrong. Give me one example where ignorance was not the root of some evil
I took that claim back and double downed on it with the claim "evil has no link with ignorance. The root of it is the ability to choose." I already explained why and I am waiting how you will respond on the example I gave you: rape. I am very curious how you can break that down to ignorance. good luck with it.
