Islam allows indiscriminate killings of women and children(non-combatants)??

Roasted Cashew

Roasted Cashew

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I will paste down here a rant by a non-Muslim.. Pls help me here..

" regarding killing innocent people in suicide bombings. In islamic law, their doesnt exists such a word called "non combatants".
Rather the word "man la yastahiqq al-qatl" (those who do not deserve to be killed”) is used by the scholars.

During the siege of taif, Muhammad used catapults/ballistics on an entire tribe, even though there was a high chance women and children would be killed indiscriminately/ unintentionally.

Because of this muslim scholars say the following:

"One must go on jihad (i.e razzias or raids) at least once a year ... one may use a catapult against them when they are in a fortress, even if among them are women and children."[Al-Ghazali (Sufi Scholar), Kitab al-Wagiz fi fiqh madhab al-imam al-Safi'i]

Imam Hanifa (followed by asia's 700m+ muslims) believed you can use catapults/missiles , even if this kills:
"women, children, the very elderly, the retárded, the blind, the disabled, and the chronically ill" [Ikhtilaf, pg 6-8, by Tabari]

Therefore allowing collateral damage/indiscriminate killings.

It should be mentioned that Islam does not allow to delibrately kill women and children (according to sahih hadith), but does allow to kill them indiscriminately, if they are nearby to the enemy:
"It is reported on the authority of Sa'b b. Jaththama that the Prophet of Allah (may peace be upon him), when asked about the women and children of the polytheists being killed during the night raid, said: “They are from them”." [Sahih Muslim 19:4321 & Sahih Bukhari 4: 52:256]"


So how do you reply to those who use above mentioned references and Hadiths to claim that Islam allows killing of non-combatants.
 
For to understand that hadith fully, u need to use tafsir, also read the books of sahih bukhari, and sahih muslim, not on internet but really as books. Everything on the internet can be fabricated.
 
That's actually more in concert with Jewish warfare not Islamic one:
Like the best Chabad-Lubavitch rabbis, Manis Friedman has won the hearts of many unaffiliated Jews with his charismatic talks about love and God; it was Friedman who helped lead Bob Dylan into a relationship with Chabad.
But Friedman, who today travels the country as a Chabad speaker, showed a less warm and cuddly side when he was asked how he thinks Jews should treat their Arab neighbors.
"The only way to fight a moral war is the Jewish way: Destroy their holy sites. Kill men, women and children (and cattle)," Friedman wrote in response to the question posed by Moment Magazine for its "Ask the Rabbis" feature.
Friedman argued that if Israel followed this wisdom, there would be "no civilian casualties, no children in the line of fire, no false sense of righteousness, in fact, no war."
"I don't believe in Western morality," he wrote. "Living by Torah values will make us a light unto the nations who suffer defeat because of a disastrous morality of human invention."
Friedman's use of phrasing that might seem more familiar coming from an Islamic extremist has generated a swift backlash. The editor of Moment, Nadine Epstein, said that since the piece was printed in the current issue they "have received many letters and e-mails in response to Rabbi Friedman's comments - and almost none of them have been positive."
Friedman quickly went into damage control. He released a statement to the Forward, through a Chabad spokesman, saying that his answer in Moment was "misleading" and that he does believe that "any neighbor of the Jewish people should be treated, as the Torah commands us, with respect and compassion."
But Friedman's words have generated a debate about whether there is a darker side to the cheery face that the Chabad-Lubavitch movement shows to the world in its friendly outreach to unaffiliated Jews. Mordecai Specktor, editor of the Jewish community newspaper in Friedman's hometown, St. Paul. Minnesota, said: "The public face of Lubavitch is educational programs and promoting Yiddishkeit. But I do often hear this hard line that Friedman expresses here."
"He sets things out in pretty stark terms, but I think this is what Lubavitchers believe, more or less," said Specktor, who is also the publisher of the American Jewish World.
"They are not about loving the Arabs or a two-state solution or any of that stuff. They are fundamentalists. They are our fundamentalists."
Abraham Foxman, national director of the Anti-Defamation League and a regular critic of Arab extremists, said that in the Jewish community, "We are not immune to having these views. There are people in our community who have these bigoted, racist views."
But, Foxman warned, Friedman's views are not reflective of the Chabad rabbis he knows. "I am not shocked that there would be a rabbi who would have these views," Foxman said, "but I am shocked that Moment would give up all editorial discretion and good sense to publish this as representative of Chabad."
A few days after anger about the comment surfaced, Chabad headquarters released a statement saying that, "we vehemently disagree with any sentiment suggesting that Judaism allows for the wanton destruction of civilian life, even when at war."
The statement added: "In keeping with Jewish law, it is the unequivocal position of Chabad-Lubavitch that all human life is G-d given, precious, and must be treated with respect, dignity and compassion."
In Moment, Friedman's comment is listed as the Chabad response to the question "How Should Jews Treat Their Arab Neighbors?" after a number of answers from rabbis representing other Jewish streams, most of which state a conciliatory attitude toward Arabs.
Epstein said that Friedman was "brave" for stating his views so clearly.
"The American Jewish community doesn't have the chance to hear opinions like this," Epstein said, "not because they are rare, but because we don't often ask Chabad and other similar groups what they think."
The Chabad movement is generally known for its hawkish policies toward the Palestinians; the Chabad Rebbe, Menachem Mendel Schneerson, rejected peace accords with the Palestinians. Rabbi Moshe Feller, the top Chabad rabbi in Minnesota, said that the rebbe taught that it is not a mitzvah to kill, but that Jews do have an obligation to act in self-defense.
"Jews as a whole, they try to save the lives of others," Feller told the Forward, "but if it's to save our lives, then we have to do what we have to do. It's a last resort."
Friedman is not a fringe rabbi within the Chabad-Lubavitch movement. He was the English translator for the Chabad Rebbe, and at the rebbe's urging, he founded Beis Chana, a network of camps and schools for Jewish women. Friedman is also a popular speaker and writer on issues of love and relationships. His first book, "Doesn't Anyone Blush Anymore?" was promoted with a quote from Bob Dylan, who Friedman brought to meet the rebbe.
On his blog and Facebook page, Friedman's emphasis is on his sympathetic, caring side. It was this reputation that made the comment in Moment so surprising to Steve Hunegs, director of the Jewish Community Relations Council: Minnesota and the Dakotas.
"Rabbi Friedman is a best-selling author who addresses some of the most sensitive issues of the time," Hunegs said. "I intend to call him and talk to him about this."
But Shmarya Rosenberg, a blogger and critic of Chabad who lives a few blocks from Friedman in Minnesota, says that the comment in Moment is not an aberration from his experiences with Friedman and many other Chabad rabbis.
"What he's saying is the standard normal view of a Chabadnik," Rosenberg said. "They just don't say it in public."
For his part, Friedman was quick to modify the statement that he wrote in Moment. He told the Forward that the line about killing women and children should have been in quotes; he said it is a line from the Torah, though he declined to specify from which part. Friedman also said that he was not advocating for Israel to actually kill women and children. Instead, he said, he believed that Israel should publicly say that it is willing to do these things in order to scare Palestinians and prevent war.
"If we took this policy, no one would be killed - because there would be no war," Friedman said. "The same is true of the United States."
Friedman did acknowledge, however, that in self-defense, the behavior he talked about would be permissible.
"If your children are threatened, you do whatever it takes - and you don't have to apologize," he said.
Friedman argued that he is different from Arab terrorists who have used similar language about killing Jewish civilians.
"When they say it, it's genocide, not self-defense," Friedman said. "With them, it's a religious belief - they need to rid the area of us. We're not saying that."
Feller, the Chabad leader in Minnesota, said that the way Friedman had chosen to express himself was "radical."
"I love him," Feller said. "I brought him out here - he's magnificent. He's brought thousands back to Torah mitzvah. But he shoots from the hip sometimes."
Contact Nathaniel Popper at [email protected].

http://www.haaretz.com/news/chabad-...ab-men-women-and-children-during-war-1.277616

meanwhile this is the Islamic view:


the Prophet Muhammad instructed his soldiers:“Do not kill any child, any woman, or any elder or sick person.” (Sunan Abu Dawud)

“Do not practice treachery or mutilation. Do not uproot or burn palms or cut down fruitful trees. Do not slaughter a sheep or a cow or a camel, except for food.” (Al-Muwatta)

“If one fights his brother, [he must] avoid striking the face, for God created him in the image of Adam.” (Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim)

“Do not kill the monks in monasteries, and do not kill those sitting in places of worship. (Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal)

“Do not destroy the villages and towns, do not spoil the cultivated fields and gardens, and do not slaughter the cattle.” (Sahih Bukhari; Sunan Abu Dawud)

“Do not wish for an encounter with the enemy; pray to God to grant you security; but when you [are forced to] encounter them, exercise patience.” (Sahih Muslim)

“No one may punish with fire except the Lord of Fire.” (Sunan Abu Dawud).

“Accustom yourselves to do good if people do good, and to not do wrong even if they commit evil.” (Al-Tirmidhi)

http://abidnyc.wordpress.com/2011/03/28/islam’s-view-on-war-and-terrorism-a-survey-of-the-quran-and-prophetic-traditions/
 
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Islam does not allow the deliberate targeting of innocents.

what happened to the people of Fallujah is a clear example that the American government is a criminal organisation and has deliberately targeted innocent men women and children on an individual basis.

read more here:
http://abz2000.com/Crimesagainsthumanity.aspx

scan0001.jpg
 
some scholars have said that if our women and children have been killed then it is duty upon us to kill the enemies'. Not sure if there is ijmah on that view.

Moreover, if women are participating in combat along with the enemy, then their qitaal is wajib on the battleground as they are not non-combatants anymore.
 
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Asalaamu Alaikum,

Try searching on Searching-Islam, you could refute them easily imo.

There are certain hadith that appear to show that the Prophet peace be upon him made some exceptions...

Saheeh Bukhari
Volume 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 256.

Narated By As-Sab bin Jaththama : The Prophet passed by me at a place called Al-Abwa or Waddan, and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." I also heard the Prophet saying, "The institution of Hima is invalid except for Allah and His Apostle."

Saheeh Muslim
Book 019, Hadith Number 4321.

Chapter : Permissibility of killing women and children in the night raids, provided it is not deliberate.

It is reported on the authority of Sa'b b. Jaththama that the Prophet of Allah (may peace be upon him), when asked about the women and children of the polytheists being killed during the night raid, said: They are from them.

​
There are many possible meanings for these hadith. First of all we don't know the exact situation or what the Prophet (peace be upon him) truly meant. Maybe those particular women and children were planning to fight against the Muslims with the enemy.

Maybe the Muslim army just could not have blown this chance to attack the enemy that they still had to attack them at no matter what cost in order to stop the risk of more blood shed (do a little bad for the greater good). This is unlikely but possible.

The very fact that the companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) asked his permission shows that the Prophet (peace be upon him) used to be strict regarding his prohibition on the killing of women and children. If the Muslims were in the habit of killing women and children they wouldn't have asked for the Prophet's opinion. However, when a situation arises and there is no choice, things could get ugly.

Also notice that the companions did not ask the Prophet peace be upon whether they could deliberately target the women and children. They merely mentioned that the women and children will be exposed to danger when they were attacking the men warriors.

Imam Ibn Hajar Al Asaqalani says in his commentary on Saheeh Bukhari that the point is not to target the women and children intentionally but if there is absolutely no other way to kill the enemy than by injuring the women and children because they are mixed with the men then there is no other choice. (Read Ibn Hajar Al Asqalani's Fathul Bari, Kitab: Al Jihad wal Sayr, Bab: Ahlul Daar Yabeetoon Fa Yusaab Al Waldaan wal Zharaari, Commentary on Hadith no. 2790, Source)

He also said that another possibility is that the hadith has been abrogated and that even if women and children accompany the enemy during war then they still should not be killed. (ibid.) That's why its possible that the Prophet (peace be upon him) after this incident decided to stop attacking the enemy at night but during the day so that he can see who he is fighting clearly...

Saheeh Bukhari

Volume 005, Book 059, Hadith Number 510.
Narated By Anas : Allah's Apostle reached Khaibar at night and it was his habit that, whenever he reached the enemy at night, he will not attack them till it was morning. When it was morning, the Jews came out with their spades and baskets, and when they saw him(i.e. the Prophet), they said, "Muhammad! By Allah! Muhammad and his army!" The Prophet said, "Khaibar is destroyed, for whenever we approach a (hostile) nation (to fight), then evil will be the morning for those who have been warned.".​
Saheeh Muslim

Book 004, Hadith Number 0745.
Chapter : There can be two pronouncers of Adhan for one mosque.
Anas b. Malik reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) used to attack the enemy when it was dawn. He would listen to the Adhan; so if he heard an Adhan, he stopped, otherwise made an attack. Once on hearing a man say: Allah is the Greatest, Allah is the Greatest, the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) remarked: He is following al-Fitra (al-Islam). Then hearing him say: I testify that there is no god but Allah. there is no god but Allah, the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: You have come out of the Fire (of Hell). They looked at him and found that he was a goatherd.



​
Imam Nawawi says in his commentary on Saheeh Muslim that women and children are only killed if they cannot be distinguished. But because it was so dark and they could not be distinguished, the Muslims had no choice. (Read Imam Nawawi's Sharh Saheeh Muslim, Kitab: Al Jihad wal Sayr, Bab: Jawaz Qatl Al Nisaa' wal Sabyaan fi Al Biyaat Min Ghayr Ta'amud, Commentary on Hadith no. 3281, Source)

The commentary of Sunan Abu Dawud by Muhammad Shams al-Haqq al-Adhim Abadi says the same thing. (Read Muhammad Shams al-Haqq al-Adhim Abadi's Awn al-Mabud Sharh Sunan Abu Dawud, Kitab: Al Jihad, Bab: Fi Qatl Al Nisaa', Commentary on Hadith no. 2298, Source)

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/t...d_children__but_what_about_those_night_raids_
Click to expand...
 
Roasted Cashew said:
I will paste down here a rant by a non-Muslim.. Pls help me here..

" regarding killing innocent people in suicide bombings. In islamic law, their doesnt exists such a word called "non combatants".
Rather the word "man la yastahiqq al-qatl" (those who do not deserve to be killed”) is used by the scholars.

During the siege of taif, Muhammad used catapults/ballistics on an entire tribe, even though there was a high chance women and children would be killed indiscriminately/ unintentionally.

Because of this muslim scholars say the following:

"One must go on jihad (i.e razzias or raids) at least once a year ... one may use a catapult against them when they are in a fortress, even if among them are women and children."[Al-Ghazali (Sufi Scholar), Kitab al-Wagiz fi fiqh madhab al-imam al-Safi'i]

Imam Hanifa (followed by asia's 700m+ muslims) believed you can use catapults/missiles , even if this kills:
"women, children, the very elderly, the retárded, the blind, the disabled, and the chronically ill" [Ikhtilaf, pg 6-8, by Tabari]

Therefore allowing collateral damage/indiscriminate killings.

It should be mentioned that Islam does not allow to delibrately kill women and children (according to sahih hadith), but does allow to kill them indiscriminately, if they are nearby to the enemy:
"It is reported on the authority of Sa'b b. Jaththama that the Prophet of Allah (may peace be upon him), when asked about the women and children of the polytheists being killed during the night raid, said: “They are from them”." [Sahih Muslim 19:4321 & Sahih Bukhari 4: 52:256]"


So how do you reply to those who use above mentioned references and Hadiths to claim that Islam allows killing of non-combatants.
Click to expand...

If you want to learn Islam, don't learn it by learning the doubts first. Learn it by sitting with the scholars until you have a firm foundation.

And to answer your question, Islam does not promote the killing of women and children. However, during combat if the enemy decides to surround themselves with women and children deliberately in order to protect themselves, knowing we won't harm women and children, it becomes allowed. This is because in such cases the enemy can advance and assault Muslims while we won't be able to do anything simply because we wouldn't want to hurt the women and children. So in other words, it becomes an exception in this case; and even then the women and children are not targeted, only the those who have a weapon and are advancing to fight the Muslims are targeted.

The 'non-Muslim rants' are branches of Islam. If you really want to give non-Muslims da'wah then call them towards tawheed and the worship of Allah. The rest will be easy to accept once it is known from whom these commands are coming from.
 
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And if these debunkers are the pro-Zionist type, tell them that they PURPOSEFULLY target men women children and cattle,

Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass
1 Samuel 15:3


And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.
Joshua 6:21
 
Islam does not condone indiscriminate killing or the killing of non-combatants. However, there are sadly certain Muslims who will kill anyone and everyone. And even worse are those that label Muslims apostates just so they could kill them.
 
Abz2000 said:
And if these debunkers are the pro-Zionist type, tell them that they PURPOSEFULLY target men women children and cattle,

Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass
1 Samuel 15:3


And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.
Joshua 6:21
Click to expand...


Also there is plenty of racist stuff in the their holy book the satanic talmud such as :

“If a Gentile hits a Jew he must be killed.” (Sanhedrin 58b)
* “If a Jew finds an object lost by a gentile it does not have to be returned.” (Baba Mezia 24a)
* “If a Jew murders a gentile there will be no death penalty.” (Sanhedrin 57a)
* What a Jew steals from a gentile he may keep.” (Sanhedrin 57a)
* “All children of the Gentiles are animals.” (Yebamoth 98a)
 
here:

lol it so bad that it actually makes me laugh when i read it:

Yet this week, one of modern Israel’s greatest rabbis confirmed every “anti-Semitic” claim. The Jewish Telegraph Agency says:
Israeli Sephardic leader Rabbi Ovadia Yosef said that non-Jews exist to serve Jews, in his weekly Saturday night sermon. “Goyim were born only to serve us. Without that, they have no place in the world; only to serve the People of Israel…Why are gentiles needed? They will work, they will plow, they will reap. We will sit like an effendi [Arabic, meaning lord or master] and eat,” he said to some laughter.
Yosef, the spiritual head of the Shas party and the former chief Sephardic rabbi of Israel also said that non-Jews are protected in order to prevent financial loss to Jews.
“With gentiles, it will be like any person: They need to die, but God will give them longevity. Why? Imagine that one’s donkey would die, they’d lose their money. This is his servant. That’s why he gets a long life, to work well for this Jew,” said the rabbi…

and there's more:

"If a Jew has a non-Jewish servant or maid who dies, one should not express sympathy to the Jew. You should tell the Jew: "God will replace 'your loss', just as if one of his oxen or asses had died"."
Jore dea 377, 1

"A heretic Gentile you may kill outright with your own hands."
Talmud, Abodah Zara, 4b

"Every Jew, who spills the blood of the godless (non-Jews), is doing the same as making a sacrifice to God."
Talmud: Bammidber raba c 21 & Jalkut 772

Menahoth 43b-44a. A Jewish man is obligated to say the following prayer every day:
Thank you God for not making me a gentile, a woman or a slave.


"A Goy who pries into the Talmud is condemned to death, for it is written, it is our inheritance, not theirs." Sanhedrin 59a.


"To communicate anything to a Goy about our religious relations would be equal to the killing of all Jews, for if the Goyim knew what we teach about them, they would kill us openly." Libbre David 37.

​
 
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'mreekans in the vein of bushies would agree with the rabbis, just replace "gentiles" with "mozlems and musalmans"
 
Roasted Cashew said:
It should be mentioned that Islam does not allow to delibrately kill women and children (according to sahih hadith), but does allow to kill them indiscriminately, if they are nearby to the enemy:
"It is reported on the authority of Sa'b b. Jaththama that the Prophet of Allah (may peace be upon him), when asked about the women and children of the polytheists being killed during the night raid, said: “They are from them”." [Sahih Muslim 19:4321 & Sahih Bukhari 4: 52:256]"
Click to expand...

It is understandable that at night you can't see properly. So, if wives and children of the combatants stand/exist near the combatants, they are more likely to get hit by the attacks. And Muslim must attack or else they will get killed. So, I can't see any other solution with this especially considering the 7th century context.

For the rest we need confirmation of the sources cited. Anyway, generally in Islam it is FORBIDDEN to kill women and children in battle.
 
Perhaps a factor to consider in our answers, what must be realised is that the reality of war is not always black and white. The general rule of warfare in Islaam is that non-combatants should not be killed. However, the general rulings in Islaam always has exceptions for exceptional situation [for example the shortening of the Salaah is only permitted while travelling, but the general ruling is to pray the 4].
 
Abu.Yusuf said:
Perhaps a factor to consider in our answers, what must be realised is that the reality of war is not always black and white. The general rule of warfare in Islaam is that non-combatants should not be killed. However, the general rulings in Islaam always has exceptions for exceptional situation [for example the shortening of the Salaah is only permitted while travelling, but the general ruling is to pray the 4].
Click to expand...

We have to be careful when it comes to killing. Let's not say there are exceptions to kill non-combatants simply because the situation is different. Even killing a potential enemy who states La ilaha illallah in the battlefield is frowned upon. Unexpected thing happen in a battle field, but that doesn't mean that they are accepted.


Usama ibn Zayd killed an [enemy] idolater in battle after the latter had said: "There is no god but Allah" (La ilaha illallah). When news of this reached Allah's Messenger he condemned Usama in the strongest terms and he said to him: "How can you kill him after he said La ilaha illallah?" He replied: "But he said it with the sword hanging over his head-" The Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him -- said again: "How can you kill him after he said La ilaha illallah?" He replied: "O Messenger of Allah, he said it in dissimulation (taqiyyatan)." The Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him -- said: "Did you split his heart open (to see)?" and he did not cease to reprove him until Usama wished that he had not entered Islam until after he had killed that man so that he might have been forgiven all his past sins through belief.Narrated by Bukhari, Muslim, Ahmad, Tayalisi, Abu Dawud, Nasa'i, al-`Adni, Abu `Awana, al-Tahawi, al-Hakim, and Bayhaqi.

Al-Miqdad said: I asked, "O Messenger of Allah, suppose I and one of the idolaters battled and he cut off my hand, then I was positioned to strike him and he said: La ilaha illallah! Do I kill him or spare him?" He said: "Spare him." I said: "Even if he cut off my hand?" He said: "Even so." I asked him again two or three times whereupon he said: "If you kill him after he says La ilaha illallah then you are like him before he said it, and he is like you before you killed him." Narrated by Ahmad, Abu Dawud, Nasa'i, Shafi`i in his Musnad, and Bayhaqi in the Shu`ab.

Hopefully this will help.

http://www.shariahprogram.ca/articles/Jihad-Habib-Jifry.shtml
 

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