I have read all ther opinions about apostasy and I do agree that if someone has researched and come to the conclusion of la Illaha Illa Allah, and later he denies and converts to another religion he should be killed. I am aware that this is the position of the madhabs and it seems reasonable. I mean if a sane adult embraces Islam knowing full well what the punishment for apostasy is and that There is only One God and Muhammad(pbuh) is his messenger, it would be stupid to disbelieve in it.
However I would like to ask about something which I do not understand. It is my understanding that the majority share the following view:
Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi declares:
Whatever objections the critics pose regarding the punishment of the apostate, they make them bearing in mind only a single "religion" (madhhab). In contrast, when we present our arguments to demonstrate the validity of this punishment, we have in view no mere "religion" but a state which is constructed on a religion (din) and the authority of its principles rather than on the authority of a family, clan or people.
And since it is a state, Maududi declares it "has the right to protect its own existence by declaring those acts wrong which undermine its order", and proceeds to equate apostasy to treason. He then discusses the difference between a kafir, a dhimmi, and the appropriateness of death for them if they apostatize after conversion, and for those born of Muslim parents he states:
In any case the heart of the matter is that children born of Muslim lineage will be considered Muslims and according to Islamic law the door of apostasy will never be opened to them. If anyone of them renounces Islam, he will be as deserving of execution as the person who has renounced kufr to become a Muslim and again has chosen the way of kufr. All the jurists of Islam agree with this decision. On this topic absolutely no difference exists among the experts of shari'ah.
Maududi considers the threat of execution as not forcing someone to stay within the fold of Islam, but as a way of keeping those who are not truly committed out of the community of Islam. Maududi rejects the third criticism because unlike other religions which are free to exchange believers, Islam is "on whose ideas and actions society and state are constructed" cannot allow "to keep open its door that would spell its own ruin, the scattering of its own structure's parts, the stripping away of the bonds of its own existence", and he compares this to the treason penalty on the books of the U.S. and Britain. Maududi also rejects the charge of contradiction. In his words:
"There is no compulsion in religion" (la ikraha fi'd din: Qur'an [Qur'an 2:256]) means that we do not compel anyone to come into our religion. And this is truly our practice. But we initially warn whoever would come and go back that this door is not open to come and go. Therefore anyone who comes should decide before coming that there is no going back.
(source: Wikipedia, Apostasy in Islam)
So this is the only thing which I find that goes against any logic or reasoning..
How can a child be killed once he grows up if once attaining the age of being able to think for himself he chooses to not be muslim. This seems to go against the very essence of freedom to choose your own religion. Am I wrong? Isn't Allah(swt) the only one who can guide? What if He(swt) decides not to guide a specific child born to muslim parents..... how can we kill him.
I should also mention that according to wikipedia, Ibn Taymyiah held the view that only apostasy when coupled with treason or slander or active work against islam should be worthy of the death penalty... Did he actually hold this view or is this just lies against him?
Brother Salam, your question is valid and shows you are careful to understand and comprehend the different aspects of your religion well enough in order to enhance your faith. And that is valid and to be supported. Some people face what they don't understand and try to change it in their minds to something acceptable, or look for a single sheikh to give them an alternate ruling that would go with their desires, which is an unfortunate weakness and may God make us all stronger. You are not like that though and I am glad you asked rather than do like many modern muslims who simply choose to take the opinion of a very small minority, that there should be no punishment for apostasy.
First, before the explanation, here is the nass el-hokm (statement of ruling), as per an authentic hadith from the prophet who said: "The blood of a muslim is not halal except in three: Apostacy after Islam, murder of another muslim, and adultery after marriage." also, there is another in Sahih Al-Bukhary narrated by Ibn Abbas: "“Whoever changes his religion (out of Islam), put him to death.” This is a direct ruling with no ambiguity. Additionally, the solid documented history of the prophet and the four Khalifas showed many situations were this punishment was applied on apostates, and explanation of its rulings and conditions was comprehensive. The prophet -pbuh- did it, and on women as well, Abu Bakr waged a whole war on apostates, Umar Ibn Al-Khattab applied it and said that the repentence period is three days, Uthman Ibn Affan upheld it, Ali upheld it and was of the opinion that repentence is one month (and there was an incident where the execution was done by burning the apostates and Ibn Abbas sent to him that the prophet -pbuh- has forbidden using such a method ever, that it is God's sole method of punishment.)
Now, the reasoning behind it is as such: God says in his glorious book: "وَمَا خَلَقْتُ الْجِنَّ وَالْإِنسَ إِلَّا لِيَعْبُدُونِ" {I have only created Jinns and men, that they may worship and serve Me} [51:56] and based on this, our very existence is to worship and serve God, Allah -SAW-. This life, this world is nothing but a testing ground to see who worships God the most, who worships less, and who joins Satan and his league and disbelieves in God and deals with his religion with arrogance and pride.
If a person did not hear of God's message, and when he does, he doesn't necessarily believe it at first, That is ok, they have that right. There is no compulsion in religion "لاَ إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ". That is because anyway you CANNOT literally force someone to BELIEVE something. You can force or threaten someone into declaring that God is there, but no amount of force or threatening can make people believe. Otherwise, if there is no belief, and a person was forced to do prayer or forced to not eat until sunset, then how can there be a reward and punishment? So people are left to make their own choices, in their own time. Some will die dis-believers, and God will punish them. Some will revert to God's religion and be good muslims, so they will reap the rewards. Some will not hear the message, and those God will judge them with his wisdom and justice that overshadows our knowledge and judgement. They have a chance to become muslim maybe until the last breath on their death beds, and that is their choice.
If a person enters Islam and then leaves, that is a different matter. Because then his choice is over and it has been made. As per Umar ibn El-Khattab who says this is the way the prophet -pbuh- dictated, an apostate is locked up for three days being given basic sustenance. A person of knowledge then speaks with him everyday, for the person might have doubt, might have been misinformed, or might be insane temporarily or terminally. Those three days gives the apostate the chance to review himself, and revise his decision, and contemplate, and allows the person of knowledge to answer his question and to assess if he is mentally sound or not. If he is sound of mind and has no interest whatsoever in Islam, then his purpose in life as per the verse {I have only created Jinns and men, that they may worship and serve Me} is over. A non-believer might any day decide to join, but this one, and after being given the chance to repent for three days or one month (Ali prefers a month because he says he understood from the prophet that ample time is the key. Ali Ibn Abi Taleb of course was jurisprudence and Fiqh wise better than Umar) still insist that they won't be muslims, which means that they will NEVER be.
On top of that, there is no chance that a person who apostates from Islam will ever be truthful towards it. They will fight Islam verbally or physically and hold people against it, and try to misguide them by their own stories. So it becomes a combined punishment, of removal of purpose first and of treason second.
As you can see, the basic wisdom of the punishment of apostasy is applicable to both a person who joins Islam, as well as that who was born into it. The one who is born into it and then leaves as an adult despite being exposed to it will still be a traitor (you don't have to have acquired an american nationality to be considered a traitor if you're fighting against them, do you?) as well as irreversibly mushrek and therefore has no more purpose.
There are of course conditions and rules to follow when applying the punishment. Reasons not to apply the punishment other than repentence or the person being found not of sound mind: ignorance, misunderstanding, being forced, and making mistakes.
As for Ibn Taymeyya, he actually described two types of apostasy, ordinary and extreme, for which BOTH deserve the death penalty. However he said the extreme apostacy need no repentence or waiting time. An example of an extreme apostate is like Al-Hallaj in Iraq, who claimed divinity and belief in re-incarnation. He claimed to be God, and was put to death without asking him to repent. Ibn Taymeyya said that al-muhareb or fighters against Islam can be verbal as well as physical, and that verbal fighting is worse than physical, and that all apostates if they do not repent must be put to death.
All these can be found in his books. So the stories that he did not approve of this are wrong.
The punishment for apostasy was actually set from the days of Moses, and it still stands in the modern day jewish scripture:
Deuteronomy
13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
13:7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
13:8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
13:10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
13:11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.
13:12 If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,
13:13 Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;
13:14 Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;
13:15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.
13:16 And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.
13:17 And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;
13:18 When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.
And there is this incident:
Exodus 32:26 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD's side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.
32:27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
32:28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.
32:29 For Moses had said, Consecrate yourselves today to the LORD, even every man upon his son, and upon his brother; that he may bestow upon you a blessing this day.
So in conclusion, I hope that I provided you with a fullfiling explanation regarding the death penalty for apostacy, and that there is no difference between embracing Islam and being born muslim in apostacy. Most importantly I hope your view is also corrected regarding Ibn Taymeyya.
no compulsion in religion means exactly that, killing one who has left Islam is not allowed except in special cases. at the time of the prophet, goverment and religion were more intertwined than now, so it can't be applied to nowadays, the same for the people after him.
otherwise, dismiss the verse completely, but don't pretend to follow it while actually explaining it away,,
no compulsion in religion means exactly that, killing one who has left Islam is not allowed except in special cases. at the time of the prophet, goverment and religion were more intertwined than now, so it can't be applied to nowadays, the same for the people after him.
otherwise, dismiss the verse completely, but don't pretend to follow it while actually explaining it away,,
for the one who leaves the deen of al islam rightly derseves his head cut of
You might feel like you wish things different Astaghferallah, but don't take things with ignorance my friend. These verses have been interpreted and studied and commented upon by those far more knowledgable than you and me and have had proven incidents from the prophet and his sahaba. There was no nation before Fath Makka and apostacy punishment was applied, and it was applied to women, and it was applied before and after. WHat you say suggests that Abu Bakr and Omar and Ali and all the sahaba from there till Al-Albani god bless his soul got it wrong, and 99% of today's scholars are also getting it wrong.
The four imams have agreed on it as well with the exception of Abu Hanefa who says women can be spared, while Ahmed Ibn Hanbal and Malik and Shafei say no such thing.
I am with you that there is no Islamic state today, but Islam was not made differently according to different conditions, and the sahaba could not have violated the Quranic verse thinking that it doesn't reflect their conditions. The verse is about entering fresh into Islam, and the Hadith from the prophet that I mentioned: "Whomever changes his religion (out of Islam), put him to death" is authenticated and in Sahih Al-Bukhary, and has no conditioning.
Finally I sense a bit of hostility from you in the last sentence when you said I shouldn't pretend to follow it while explaining it away. My brother I am not explaining, and this is not my personal thought up opinion, this is the stated ruling in Islam agreed upon by scholars. Please don't accuse me of something I actually warn others not to do, and that is to interpret things based on their whims.
no no brother islam is not a gym membership were you can leave it /ITS THE TRUTH/ and if you look to the sunnah who ever appostated got beheaded and i back it 100 percent infact i would i do worse allhu akbar
Easy yusuf. An apostate is held by the authorized magistrate or judge and is checked on his sanity and discussed with to give a chance to repent as was ordered in Islam. Afterwards they are put to death by a trained executioner without mutilation, keep your samurai sword holstered my friend.
there's a difference between treason and changing one's religion, if one leads to the other, the ruling applies, otherwise it doesn't.
the prophet knew of many apostates, yet never did anything about them, the hadeeth kill whomever changes his religion was not accepted as authentic by many.
a minor note:all the hudood are mentioned in the qur'an, such as cutting the hand for thieves etc, killing an apostate is not mentioned, so it is not a hadd.
there's a difference between treason and changing one's religion, if one leads to the other, the ruling applies, otherwise it doesn't.
the prophet knew of many apostates, yet never did anything about them, the hadeeth kill whomever changes his religion was not accepted as authentic by many.
a minor note:all the hudood are mentioned in the qur'an, such as cutting the hand for thieves etc, killing an apostate is not mentioned, so it is not a hadd.
Alcurad, you need to have the humility to say "In My Opinion" when you are speaking from personal feelings rather than speaking of actual facts and scholarly declared rulings. This is your opinion at the end of the day and you can reject knowledge and principals, but please don't confuse others by saying things that are categorically not true like that the hadith is not authentic and all that. That goes against evidence and proven science and agreed upon consensus. The hadith "Whomever changes his religion..." is authentic, it is in Sahih Al-Bukhary, as for the first hadith "The blood of a muslim is not halal except in three: Apostacy after Islam...." it is Mutafaqon Aleih, which means it is solid in narrative authenticity and confirmation that both Al-Bukhary and Moslem agreed on it and happened upon its sources.
Brother to suggest a hadith is not authentic when you have no knowledge of how to judge is a silly thing, but nevertheless it is between you and God. What further proves authenticity is that the prophet, Abu Bakr, Omar, and the others ordered to put to death apostates in documented incidents and proven judgements that was not necessarily connected with war or military treason.
Above all else, you said something in the end that I need to warn you about brother: "... killing an apostate is not mentioned, so it is not a hadd.". Look, this is where your argument got into dangerous territory for you my brother. Do NOT ever say anything that suggests that Sunnah or the prophet's rulings are deniable and that you only take what is in the Quran. That statement is associated with rejecting belief in the prophet Mohammed -pbuh- being the sent infallible messenger and is one of the six tenets of of faith (his messengers).
Beware my brother and don't go there! Istaghferallah for us and you. Say that you still do not believe the hadith is real, that is up to you although wrong. Say even that you doubt the work of the scholars from beginning of time till tomorrow noon, that is still up to you although any sin you do out of such ignorance you will still be responsible for. But do not say that the prophet's hadith and ruling does not count for one reason or another, you are knocking on one of VERY few doors of kufr, and if you look in this forum you will find that I am one of the biggest supporters of keeping those doors to the minimum that was dictated by the prophet and am one in protecting the sanctity of people's faith from frivalous accusations of kufr, however that statement knocks on one of those doors, so I beg of you to walk away.A hadith by the prophet and his orders ARE sources of jurisprudence ruling on their own on hodoud or anything else.
May God grant you peace be with you brother.
Last edited by Sampharo; 05-30-2009 at 05:08 PM.
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Iblis's eternal destination in the Hellfire is due to Arrogance, not Disbelief.
I don't think you understood wht I wrote, my fault for not clarifying:
I was speaking of the second hadeeth's sanad, it goes:عكرمة عن ابن عباس
and some scholars said 'ikrima's narrations are not accepted. 'ikrima here is the servant of Ibn Abbas.
however, this isn't the only reason I base my position on-obviously- more later,,
I don't think you understood wht I wrote, my fault for not clarifying:
I was speaking of the second hadeeth's sanad, it goes:عكرمة عن ابن عباس
and some scholars said 'ikrima's narrations are not accepted. 'ikrima here is the servant of Ibn Abbas.
however, this isn't the only reason I base my position on-obviously- more later,,
I don't think you understood wht I wrote, my fault for not clarifying:
I was speaking of the second hadeeth's sanad, it goes:عكرمة عن ابن عباس
and some scholars said 'ikrima's narrations are not accepted. 'ikrima here is the servant of Ibn Abbas.
however, this isn't the only reason I base my position on-obviously- more later,,
Granted. But that notion is only adopted by a sheer minority of scholars, most of them are modern. Based on the four schools of jurisprudence as I mentioned the apostacy punishment does not get held back because of lack of warring or abandoning the Islamic community or premeditated confusion. Omar Ibn Al-Khattab passed the apostacy laws on men who stayed within the community. Once he told off a tribe for doing it without holding the three days minimum required for repenetence (Mosnad Ahmed) but approved that they should apply it.
I am the biggest opposer of 'takfir'ing people, and I hold it so highly that calling someone with kufr, or digging behind people's apostacy is worse than fighting muslims, and I think you can see my opinions clearly on the "War in Southern Somalia almost over" thread. I do not make "emotive opinions" because I do not publish opinions that are personally mine to start with, nor do I publish things that are personally motivated. I have three degrees in Islamic sciences from the Abu Dhabi islamic foundation, as well as studied in Al-Azhar. I am one year away from earning my Master's degree in the Islamic University in Malaysia, and I still will not give personal opinions about these matters, because there is no Ijtihad where there is a Nass, meaning there is no studying and analyzing new opinions when there is a set law dictated literally in authentic hadith or the Quran. The apostacy law is upheld by 95% of the World's scholars of today and yesteryears, including Al-Albani, Ibn Taymeyya, Al-Thahabi, Al-Qortobi, Abu Dawood, the four Imams Ibn Hanbal, Shafei, Abu Haneefa, and Malik, in addition to having been held and applied by the four Kholafaa' Rashidoon and Omar Ibn Abdul Aziz. Additionally, Al-Azhar and all Sunni universities around the Islamic school holds this as an official stance, even though it isn't applied and a few young students or teachers mistakenly feel it is too harsh and try to explain around it. Unless someone is learned enough to find fault with their method and shows his support from direct Hadith and Quran, it is a very weak opinion, so if it's that extreme in the minority, I only say then to at least say that it is, and I believe that you should be doing that rather than asking others.
On a personal note, I do think that you are too fast to judge people -I AM married and never laid a finger on my wife who is the joy of my life- and YES I also do think that you are grouchy!
As for Alcurid, the hadith like you say that is not authentic, it takes a very high scholar to make a statement about a hadith in Sahih Al-Bukhary. I understand what you say about some scholars saying that Ekrema shouldn't have his hadith's accepted, but it doesn't mean a whole ruling with its attached laws should be discarded when there are other hadiths confirming them and a plethora of documented incidents confirming the stance has been executed and carried out with precise explanation of methodology. You are more than welcome of course to ask or to raise questions or to bring certain arguments to discuss and explore. I will also learn more no doubt.
And God knows best
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Iblis's eternal destination in the Hellfire is due to Arrogance, not Disbelief.
If you have a matter of personal concern, I suggest you take it out where appropriate in lieu of meandering a topic by way of emotional catharsis..
what you do in your personal life is no concern of mine.. but what you advise or advocate so publicly with definitiveness and authority without firm knowledge is another.
I'd also like to remind you just in case you were not familiar with projection that it was you who'd left a negative in my CP don't come in the same breath to speak of haste and judgment...
I am glad to see you feverous of your point of views.. they are not however shared by the majority and I'd actually go the mile to say that Br. Ansar al'Adl (as per above topic and in concert with the thread) is probably the best of us in education when it comes to Islamic Jurisprudence and the science of hadith...
I would venture to recommend you use the search feature to familiarize with the topics here at length before rehashing the same all again.
If I can find an opinion to negate yours on Islamonline, or even mere superficial personal survey of the prophet Mohammed (p) life and interactions (and I do) then frankly, I don't see how I can put any weightiness to what you write as I am yet to see your qualifications when it comes to Islamic scholarship! (there is more to the practice than you stating it is a consensus amongst sunni scholars) can't really butter anyone's bread with your assurances! and if you can then my God? what are you doing on a forum? you should use that expertise in the appropriate chanels!
things aren't as black and white as all that.. Al'mo'emin faten above all, and wise, every situation is tailored differently, it isn't a one size fits all.
so far, I haven't seen much wisdom in:
1- belittling or and I quote call other Muslims 'misguided and principally wrong', as I indeed remind you the thread you negatively repped me on was written by Br. Yusuf Estes and not my person I beg to see your qualifications first before we venture into his (amongst others)?! especially when equally valid, sound, with proof either from the Quran or sunna.
2- leaving negatives for others and then crying wolf about it in an entirely unrelated thread.
3- straying off topic simply to appease oneself over not having the last word!
4- baiting someone who has no interest in addressing you in this topic by discussing an issue completely unrelated to this thread!
perhaps you can do us both a favor and steer clear of my path? the last thing I need is a winded lecture from a pseudo-scholar or at least go about it with some grace, you won't end up being such a sore itch on people' side!
Now with that being said, we can get back to apostasy, although all there is of it has already been discussed or if the thread has lost all value that it be closed all together!
all the best
Last edited by جوري; 05-31-2009 at 07:51 AM.
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
what you do in your personal life is no concern of mine.. but what you advise or advocate so publicly with definitiveness and authority without firm knowledge is another.
I'd also like to remind you just in case you were not familiar with projection that it was you who'd left a negative in my CP don't come in the same breath to speak of haste and judgment...
I didn't leave negative on your CP except that you closed that thread against any further posting (maybe someone else closed it but the outcome was the same) AND you have turned off your private messaging system. I know that I have no ... what do they call it here.. "Rep power" to leave anything negative but it was the only way to, yes poke at you, the only way to reach you since you apparently are all closed up in communications!
My belief in what I write extends from that of whom I learned from and the fact that was echoed across the board. So excuse me if YES I will be very protective that a minority contemprory misguided translation gets presented as the global consensus, when any Arab secondary school student of religion would be surprised at the notion of "have intercourse" when the very incident of the verse is well known, the interpretation has been spoken clearly by the prophet and the Sahaba, in addition to the illogical conclusion as to have intercourse, when the step right before it is "deny them intercourse"!
If I can find an opinion to negate yours on Islamonline, or even mere superficial personal survey of the prophet Mohammed (p) life and interactions (and I do) then frankly, I don't see how I can put any weightiness to what you write as I am yet to see your qualifications when it comes to Islamic scholarship!
I wasn't trying to get you to accept my opinion or adopt it, and I don't need to show all my qualifications in order to have anyone accept my quotations. I simply bring verifiable information that ANYONE can go online and double check, and that is the opinion of the FATHERS of jurisprudence and the established scholars from old until today's academics. Academics today have differences, and just like I mentioned elsewhere, it is the consensus and majority ruling that keeps things in check from both gun-totting takfir everyone backyard lunatics and modernization liberals who wish to change things to be more fashionable in Western-style concepts. I am in the middle and I am proud to be where the vast majority of scholars are.
If you wish to present an opinion, then present it all that you wish. When someone asks though about "does Islam say this and that" then the response needs to be with solid narration of the original hadiths that produce those rulings and more importantly has the PRIMARY REFERENCES and SECONDARY ANALYSIS that support those opinions. The Sunnah that was collected and processed across tens of thousands of scholars back when seeking enlightened knowledge in Islam was a most prestigeous practice and produced the shining examples and stars of the four Imams of the four Math-habs and Ibn Taymeyya and Sayyed Sabeq and etc.. Some new age professor or European school of theology scholar came up with a new idea or ijtihad? Good for him or her, but until it becomes consensus across the academic world and gets the books to be rewritten then it stays as the minority view that may be mentioned for the sake of hearing all sides.
And if you want to check the consensus, pick up the phone and check the Azhar school you said your uncles graduated from and tell them Daraba means have intercourse and see their reaction, or ask them if apostacy has no Hadd ruling and that there is freedom of religion in leaving Islam. Anybody you reach that tells you yes, let me know his name, the Dean will review whether they need to repeat their secondary school education or not! As a matter of fact, if you wish to contact my mother be my guest, unlike me she's an established scholar who gets invited all over Egypt to teach and educate and still lives back there full time, why don't you email her to see if any of Al-Azhar or Omar Abd El-Kafi group or Mustafa Mahmoud Mosque circles would agree with those concepts.
Consensus is the key, that is the definition of majority. Islamonline has those who argue against apostacy laws (saw two postings or articles about them) but has 12 approving and confirming the validity right there on the website. You can at the very least recognize the factual statements that I am writing: that those are indeed are the opinions of the four Imams of jurisprudence as written in their books and the opinions of great scholars like Ibn Taymeyya and whomever else I quoted. Forget what I am saying regarding the consensus of modern scholars, just check what the math-habs dictate, before launching new rulings as "Islamic rulings" and it goes against all of their teachings, not to mention the original traditions and scripture.
they are not however shared by the majority and I'd actually go the mile to say that Br. Ansar al'Adl (as per above topic and in concert with the thread) is probably the best of us in education when it comes to Islamic Jurisprudence and the science of hadith
Islam is learned from primary and secondary references and multitude of established scholars. For the latter I depend on my professors at the university. I educate myself ABOUT tertiary modern analysis, but they mostly expand on something already established, or they make an error if they want to go against the establishment. When I say majority, I refer to established opinions in the mothers of books, as in how many of the four imams agree on something, how many of the closest Sahaba were of that opinion, and how many of my professors or teachers are of that opinion. I don't take a census on every matter, but when apostacy was discussed not a single colleague or teacher ever suggested it doesn't stand anymore. And the consensus is as I described earlier, that the four Imams agree on apostacy hodoud along with all Sahaba applying them and more modern sheikhs confirming them. I never thought in my life I would be like this because I am aquarius and since I was young I was so violently against the status quo and always looking for ways to shake the establishment. However I guess Islam changes everything in a person. I'ld love to learn from anyone, and I will be happy to read more of what's written, but I know enough to recognize the difference and mostly, if it tries to suggest that 14 centuries of scholars and the sahaba got it wrong, forgive me but it already means that the opinion is headed south and my read becomes purely entertainment. I would also be inclined to make new posts if it wasn't already made in those threads drawing attention to the origin of Islamic rulings and what the opinions are.
I would venture to recommend you use the search feature to familiarize with the topics here at length before rehashing the same all again.
I am sure there are other learned individuals all over and maybe know more than me, and would be happy to read across and learn if something is new. If somebody asks something specific, why can't he be answered specifically though? There's no rehashing, there's expansion and possibly, correction. And I am sure there will be a time when I am corrected. Otherwise we might as well close the questions concept completely and tell people to just search on Google!
(there is more to the practice than you stating it is a consensus amongst sunni scholars) can't really butter anyone's bread with your assurances! and if you can then my God? what are you doing on a forum? you should use that expertise in the appropriate chanels
A simple check of the books would suffice to say what the opinion of the grand scholars are. Verify if you like. Like I said I don't publish personal opinions because those of the grand scholars old and new were comprehensive enough anyway, so it's much better for me to simply quote them, and only fill in small blanks here and there. That is the method of Arab sheikhs and scholars anyway:
1- To state the original text as per Quran and Sunnah and Hadith
2- To present the interpretation as per the consensus of the primary sources like Sahihein and Tafsir Ibn Katheer and such when needed, mentioning a difference if there is one between them.
3- To present the consensus ruling and opinion amongst the secondary sources, like the four Imams, Ibn Taymeyya, Sayed Sabek etc. if there is one. If there isn't a consensus, they mention that it is still a matter of difference. This is where a scholar can apply ijtihad and that's when an analysis is made and some scholars differ with one another and it can be presented as such.
Apostacy hadd and the interpretation of "wadrebohanna" were NOT under any difference. Therefore the opinion is more than sufficiently presented as such. Nobody is censoring that no one else can say otherwise, but to do so then proof and supporting evidence that makes sense needs to be presented, and more importantly that new opinion will stand as the minority, it cannot be used to debunk completely a consensus that was established by the scholars on a forum without it being widely agreed upon in academic circles first and having them adopted as adjustment. Something that DID happen in very few cases (VERY few cases, and the proof and evidence was provided from newly authenticated hadith). Why am I here on the forum? Because it is fun! And yes I do spend some time speaking to small groups in small masjeds about basic matters because I am waiting for my masters degree.
Al'mo'emin faten above all, and wise, every situation is tailored differently, it isn't a one size fits all.
Absolutely agree, but the two areas that we had differences upon were areas of pure Islamic constants of consensus. The four Imams not only differed amongst them, but also changed things based on circumstances and countries. Shafei made adjustments when he went to Egypt for example because necessities on the ground required it. Constants though were always constants, and neither I nor you can decide to change them here on the forum.
1- belittling or and I quote call other Muslims 'misguided and principally wrong', as I indeed remind you the thread you negatively repped me on was written by Br. Yusuf Estes and not my person I beg to see your qualifications first before we venture into his (amongst others)?! especially when equally valid, sound, with proof either from the Quran or sunna.
I apologize for the rep, I thought this was the only way to reach you. And my earlier post here as you can see was an explanation and response to your negative rep that you gave me in return, which called my posting an emotional opinion when it is nothing more than quotations and direct research from the mother of books, and reflects what the four Imams have agreed upon and was continually reflected by the grand scholars who came afterwards. You also said I was making takfir on people, which I highly resent because I am the exact opposite. Apostacy law being applicable as per the agreement of all Sahaba and imams does not mean that I am the one who is saying anyone is a kafir. Anyway, that said, I repeat my apology for a wrong way of contact. The opinion you published on the other hand was misguided, and your reaction to redicule the prophet's hadith of miswak and then close the thread was very offensive. You need to recognize that.
As for brother Yusuf Estes that you mentioned, I swear I mean no disrespect to him by what I am about to say, but unless he has a fifth math-hab and is recognized as a new Imam who abolishes the other four math-habs, I do not see how his qualifications can have anything to do with his opinion being against the consensus of the four schools of jurisprudence: Maliki, Hanbali, Haneefi, and Shafeii, as well as the Sahaba's practices.
leaving negatives for others and then crying wolf about it in an entirely unrelated thread-straying off topic simply to appease oneself over not having the last word-baiting someone who has no interest in addressing you in this topic by discussing an issue completely unrelated to this thread
I already apologized for the rep, and yes you're right i wouldn't contact you again. But if you publish something unauthentic or confusing to readers I will do everything required to make sure that proper Islamic rulings are published as well so as not to misguide the readers. If that still pisses you off, then I am not apologetic and you can do as you like.
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Iblis's eternal destination in the Hellfire is due to Arrogance, not Disbelief.
except that you closed that thread against any further posting (maybe someone else closed it but the outcome was the same)
*
I don't have the ability to close any thread!
AND you have turned off your private messaging system. I know that I have no ... what do they call it here.. "Rep power" to leave anything negative but it was the only way to, yes poke at you, the only way to reach you since you apparently are all closed up in communications!
and the fact of the matter is, I closed my PM system after you gave the negative, because I am all too familiar with your type!
one thing for sure, I didn't get this far by being stupid.. and it isn't becoming of a Muslim to be a liar?!
and has it occurred to you, that I have no interest in lines of communication with you? Do take a hint!
My belief in what I write extends from that of whom I learned from and the fact that was echoed across the board. So excuse me if YES I will be very protective that a minority contemprory misguided translation gets presented as the global consensus, when any Arab secondary school student of religion would be surprised at the notion of "have intercourse" when the very incident of the verse is well known, the interpretation has een spoken clearly by the prophet and the Sahaba, in addition to the illogical conclusion as to have intercourse, when the step right before it is "deny them intercourse"!
Amazingly other people (Arabic speakers) can look at the same passage and come up with a completely different conclusion and still back it up!
what does that say about your puerile stances and approach?
Perhaps indeed you need to mature past your second grade education?
I wasn't trying to get you to accept my opinion or adopt it, and I don't need to show all my qualifications in order to have anyone accept my quotations. I simply bring verifiable information that ANYONE can go online and double check, and that is the opinion of the FATHERS of jurisprudence and the established scholars from old until today's academics. Academics today have differences, and just like I mentioned elsewhere, it is the consensus and majority ruling that keeps things in check from both gun-totting takfir everyone backyard lunatics and modernization liberals who wish to change things to be more fashionable in Western-style concepts. I am in the middle and I am proud to be where the vast majority of scholars are.
There is no modernization, there is simply a bubble where you have chosen to cocoon yourself, as I have linked my articles to Islamonline, as far as I am concerned they have some standards as to whom they allow to respond back to everyday questions...
Let's pose you a few questions (not that I wish to turn an apostasy thread) to a session purging you out of humiliation as it so happens even rasool Allah swt used to consult with 13 year olds.. and here you come leader of the pack and holder of the flame, passing takifr, and mocking... (thank God for your presence here, for without it, what would we have done?)
Did the prophet SAW beat any of his wives?
Was the prophet the best of charcters?
Did the prophet forbid people from slapping on the face?
Can any of the Muslim men now adays be likened to the prophet?
if you have answered any of the above with some sincertity
Then how is it that you feel so free to make an allowance of something he didn't?
If you wish to present an opinion, then present it all that you wish. When someone asks though about "does Islam say this and that" then the response needs to be with solid narration of the original hadiths that produce those rulings and more importantly has the PRIMARY REFERENCES and SECONDARY ANALYSIS that support those opinions. The Sunnah that was collected and processed across tens of thousands of scholars back when seeking enlightened knowledge in Islam was a most prestigeous practice and produced the shining examples and stars of the four Imams of the four Math-habs and Ibn Taymeyya and Sayyed Sabeq and etc.. Some new age professor or European school of theology scholar came up with a new idea or ijtihad? Good for him or her, but until it becomes consensus across the academic world and gets the books to be rewritten then it stays as the minority view that may be mentioned for the sake of hearing all sides.
Indeed, folks got to hear (read) all sides also sourced, so how is it that you are the authority? least of which on this thread.. The whole point of reading a ruling from both angels is using sound knowledge to draw the conclusion as to which is most correct not beat your opinion into people by force!
And if you want to check the consensus, pick up the phone and check the Azhar school you said your uncles graduated from and tell them Daraba means have intercourse and see their reaction, or ask them if apostacy has no Hadd ruling and that there is freedom of religion in leaving Islam. Anybody you reach that tells you yes, let me know his name, the Dean will review whether they need to repeat their secondary school education or not! As a matter of fact, if you wish to contact my mother be my guest, unlike me she's an established scholar who gets invited all over Egypt to teach and educate and still lives back there full time, why don't you email her to see if any of Al-Azhar or Omar Abd El-Kafi group or Mustafa Mahmoud Mosque circles would agree with those concepts.
Again, you need to switch gears a little, there is a whole other world that exists outside of your bubble.
Egypt really has a long way to go, before you talk to me about scholarship, I wonder where that zeal was when they were putting to death folks like sayed qutb? If egypt were as fabulous as all that 'least of which when it comes to uloom il'ahadith' then the best anti-orintalists books wouldn't be coming from folks like Dr. Muhammad -Al-Azami (an Indian) currently living in KSA.
Not folks passing fatwas everyday without proper knowledge in Arabic/Hadith or even science.. Egypt needs scholars not fatwa passers if it plans to survive.. and some mild tempered folks who aren't of the same spawn that is running their country!
anyhow after this I got tired of reading, and it doesn't actually take much to refute you.. try to make your points precise and to the point as possible as to not drown us in all this logorrhea, you remind me of the minister on board (Grace seeker) if he can't dazzle you with science he'll drown you in BS..
really the point is lost to most if you'll write a sermon every time someone's point of view doesn't agree with yours!
just familirize yourself with the art of a debate.. so you address a point more and fillers less.. that is if you expect folks to actually sit there and read what you write..
all the best
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
just familirize yourself with the art of a debate.. so you address a point more and fillers less..
The one decent useful thing that can be taken from your post, an advice that you should give to no one but yourself and desparately need to follow. You are so conceited with your insults and personal attacks on me that you have failed to even make an ounce of sense. You are attacking the Azhar school knowledge that YOU used to claim correctness of your post on women, and said your uncles graduated from there earlier, and you still claim that I am imposing my personal opinion on everyone despite repeating a hundred times that this is the verifiable opinion of the four math-habs and other great scholars that I named and quoted, and if you had spent an hour of islamic learning, you would know that this is the proper way of presenting Islamic rulings and arguments.
You however appear to prefer on raging the argument into more and more belligerent ignorant drivel and direct insults, and only seem to be learning from Islamonline.net and obscure names at the margins of islamic research. There's no reasoning with the likes of you and no need to worry over thinking you misunderstood. You are obviously as misguided as they come, so enjoy. But don't take yourself out of your real place because you obviously have little to offer other than plaster a "Tom, Dick and Harry" opinion from some website and then want the thread closed.
If you can refute my opinion, then why didn't you? Anything? Or just another Islamonline posting of the minority opinion where anyone can search and get the opposing vast majority one?
Present the rulings that show those Imams and Sahaba and Tabeien and Scholars across time actually believe that Wadrebohonna is to "Have intercourse", or that any of them said "Oh when the Islamic state is divided, DON'T hold the apostacy law, it is just when we were one nation and were fighting, that's all!" You're so delusional you're actually calling the entire source of Islamic knowledge in the World and the way 99% of Islamic states set their shariah rules as my "bubble"?!?! Wake up and smell the innovation and hypertension!
Now I can whole-heartedly tell you to go sell those delusions all that you want but nobody here is buying. You don't know me, you don't know what I learned, you don't know how to express yourself, you don't know islamic methodology, you don't know what is right or wrong in islamic analysis, and frankly you are now just annoying and abusive and seem to think the "bully" role you're taking actually isn't screamingly obvious, or you think it can actually work.
May you be healed. I am done with this.
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Iblis's eternal destination in the Hellfire is due to Arrogance, not Disbelief.
no compulsion in religion means exactly that, killing one who has left Islam is not allowed except in special cases. at the time of the prophet, goverment and religion were more intertwined than now, so it can't be applied to nowadays, the same for the people after him.
otherwise, dismiss the verse completely, but don't pretend to follow it while actually explaining it away,,
(almost agree completely)
I like some of Maududi while some of his writing gives the impression that he was living a millenia or 2 ago and that everyone had the same job or function or worth to the khilafat
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An apostate is held by the authorized magistrate or judge and is checked on his sanity and discussed with to give a chance to repent as was ordered in Islam. Afterwards they are put to death by a trained executioner without mutilation, keep your samurai sword holstered my friend. 
(almost agree completely) 
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