Following an offshoot from love_quran's thread I think it would be interesting to discuss Deuteronomy 18 more fully, so here is the chapter in full (NIV translation, with sincere apologies).
In the thread mentioned above, the claim was made that the phrase "your brothers" in verses 15 and 18 refers to the Ishmaelites (as opposed to the Israelites). Yet of the 41 other times this Hebrew word "brother" is used in Deuteronomy, not once does it appear to be in reference to Ishmaelites (indeed the words "Ishmael" and "Ishmaelite" do not appear at all in Deuteronomy).1 The priests, who are Levites—indeed the whole tribe of Levi—are to have no allotment or inheritance with Israel. They shall live on the offerings made to the LORD by fire, for that is their inheritance.
2 They shall have no inheritance among their brothers; the LORD is their inheritance, as he promised them.
3 This is the share due the priests from the people who sacrifice a bull or a sheep: the shoulder, the jowls and the inner parts.
4 You are to give them the firstfruits of your grain, new wine and oil, and the first wool from the shearing of your sheep,
5 for the LORD your God has chosen them and their descendants out of all your tribes to stand and minister in the LORD's name always.
6 If a Levite moves from one of your towns anywhere in Israel where he is living, and comes in all earnestness to the place the LORD will choose,
7 he may minister in the name of the LORD his God like all his fellow Levites who serve there in the presence of the LORD.
8 He is to share equally in their benefits, even though he has received money from the sale of family possessions.
9 When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there.
10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft,
11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you.
13 You must be blameless before the LORD your God.
14 The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the LORD your God has not permitted you to do so.
15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him.
16 For this is what you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, "Let us not hear the voice of the LORD our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die."
17 The LORD said to me: "What they say is good.
18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.
19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.
20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."
21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?"
22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.
[There is a useful Hebrew lexicon here if you want to check this out for yourself.]
So my question for Muslims is: on what basis can one justify an interpretation of "your brothers" as being the Ishmaelites?
Very intresting indeed - sounds like man reciting the word of God.18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.
19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account
Last edited by Zafran; 06-27-2009 at 01:37 PM.
As I mentioned to you in my previous reply, the lineage of the Jews and Arabs goes back to Abraham because Abraham was neither a jew nor christian. Neither existed at that time as Allah says:format_quote Originally Posted by Shoes
Abraham was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was an upright man who had surrendered (to Allah) and he was not one of the polytheists. [3:67]
In order to get to the root of who the brothers of the jews is to look at the father of the jews, and who was he? The son of Abraham, Isaac. From Isaac's offspring came Jacob from him came the Israelites.
Abraham also had another son who was known as Ishmael. From Ishmael offspring came the arabs and no one else. Thus it leaves no doubt that the brothers/brethren of the jews are the arabs because the jews and arabs go back to Abraham. Thus, Jewdaism, Christianity and Islam are known as the 'Abrahamic Religions'.
Last edited by 'Abd-al Latif; 06-27-2009 at 03:35 PM.
There is a good thread about this before.format_quote Originally Posted by ShoesFollowing an offshoot from love_quran's thread I think it would be interesting to discuss Deuteronomy 18 more fully, so here is the chapter in full (NIV translation, with sincere apologies
In the thread mentioned above, the claim was made that the phrase "your brothers" in verses 15 and 18 refers to the Ishmaelites (as opposed to the Israelites). Yet of the 41 other times this Hebrew word "brother" is used in Deuteronomy, not once does it appear to be in reference to Ishmaelites (indeed the words "Ishmael" and "Ishmaelite" do not appear at all in Deuteronomy).
[There is a useful Hebrew lexicon here if you want to check this out for yourself.]
So my question for Muslims is: on what basis can one justify an interpretation of "your brothers" as being the Ishmaelites?
http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...hren-only.html
LOOK ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Please read through that to find concise responses to your claims. Our resident pastor, Graceseeker who supports your view,in my opinion, was thoroughly refuted.
Last edited by AntiKarateKid; 06-28-2009 at 01:29 AM.
Thanks, 'Abd-al Latif, for your reply. I can understand how the Ishmaelites could legitimately be called brothers of the Jews, but my question is a bit more specific - how does one come to the interpretation the "your brothers" refers to the Ishmaelites in this particular case? For example, in Deut 2:4 the phrase refers to the Edomites - but this is clear as the verse itself refers to them. But the Deut 18 verse doesn't refer to any particular people who could be considered brothers of the Israelites. So what is your method leading to the conclusion that the brothers are the Ishmaelites? To me, the fact that Deuteronomy doesn't refer whatsoever to the Ishmaelites makes your interpretation difficult. But I'm happy to be refuted.format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Salam,
Shoes
Shoes, the fact that it remains open means that there is a possibility that it can be Ishmaelites.
I don't have a major problem with the idea that the word 'brothers' in Hebrew could (in some made-up context) refer to the Ishmaelites, but I know of no real examples of this usage in the Hebrew writings I've come across, and there are certainly no cases in the Tanakh where such an interpretation is explicitly clear. The interpretation has to be based on the way the phrase "among your brothers" is used in the Tanakh, and in Deuteronomy in particular. The fact is that the phrase is used frequently in the Deuteronomy to denote fellow Israelites, and when it refers to other tribes this is explicitly stated (as in Deut 2).
I would consider your interpretation possible if the Ishmaelites were ever mentioned in Deuteronomy, but they're not. With all respect, I just don't think there is any contextual basis on which your interpretation can stand on.
Salam,
Shoes
1st off, you will find that the descendants of Abraham that were in bondage in Egypt are often referred to as Hebrews. and the brother of a Hebrew WOULD be an Hebrew, agree? so let's check some Hebrew sources to get an answer. in fact, this was a reply to a similar thread:format_quote Originally Posted by ShoesFollowing an offshoot from love_quran's thread I think it would be interesting to discuss Deuteronomy 18 more fully, so here is the chapter in full (NIV translation, with sincere apologies
In the thread mentioned above, the claim was made that the phrase "your brothers" in verses 15 and 18 refers to the Ishmaelites (as opposed to the Israelites). Yet of the 41 other times this Hebrew word "brother" is used in Deuteronomy, not once does it appear to be in reference to Ishmaelites (indeed the words "Ishmael" and "Ishmaelite" do not appear at all in Deuteronomy).
[There is a useful Hebrew lexicon here if you want to check this out for yourself.]
So my question for Muslims is: on what basis can one justify an interpretation of "your brothers" as being the Ishmaelites?
"A VERY SIMILAR thing happens when Christians look at the Torah and Tanakh! Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING is taken as referring to Jesus, ad naseum and others will kick and scream and hold their breath insisting that there is absolutely nothing in either which prophesies Islam. It’s hard to believe, I know, but still they are like that, especially if you bring up Melchizedek!
My intent is to address this:
Quote:
Originally posted by Grace Seeker You never addressed my finally comment: Look again at the verse you quoted: "I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him." Who is referred to by the term "them"?
This is a valid question, can we use the Torah, as it is today to attempt to discover the identity of “them?” I’m pretty sure that we can, so lets’ take a look at the event which brings us to Mt.’s Sinai & Horeb. It’s called EXODUS! So, let’s look there to see if we can find any clues.
Now, I’m sure that we can all agree that the descendants of Jacob are at times referred to as the “children of Israel”, AND we know that Ishmael is Jacob’s Uncle, so in that manor, they ARE brethren. But let’s take a look at Exodus to see what we can learn there. What we find is a term from Genesis itself used to differentiate the “children of Israel” from the Egyptians, and that is the term Hebrews. The term itself is from an ancestor of Abraham, a descendant of Shem, Eber. Now, the descendants of Shem are referred to as Semites and those of Eber as Hebrews. In the 11th Chapter of Genesis we read in part” …and Shem begot Arpachshad…and Arpachshad begot Shelah…and Shelah begot Eber. So we see here that Eber is Shem’s great grandson. Reading further we read: and Eber begot Peleg…and Peleg begot Reu…and Reu begot Serug...and Serug begot Nahor…and Nahor begot Terah…and Terah begot Abram. That makes Eber Abraham’s great-great-great-great grandfather! (And Shem his great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandfather! Phew!)
In chapter 9 verse 26 of Genesis we read in part: Blessed be the LORD, the God of Shem; and let Canaan be his servant. One wonders why the Lord is called the God of Shem. We find an “undercover” clue in Genesis chapter 14, to wit:
17 After Abram returned from defeating Kedorlaomer and the kings allied with him, the king of Sodom came out to meet him in the Valley of Shaveh (that is, the King's Valley).
18 Then Melchizedek king of Salem [d] brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High, 19 and he blessed Abram, saying,
"Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
Creator [e] of heaven and earth.
20 And blessed be [f] God Most High,
who delivered your enemies into your hand."
Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything.
So who is this mysterious Melchizedek, priest of God Most High? First of every Christian and his brother will of course say “its Jesus, Jesus!” Why, because that’s what Christians do with the Tanakh, they try to turn everything into Jesus!
But what do the Jewish say about our mysterious high priest? Lets look at the notes for verse 18 in the Artscroll Tanach Series Bereishsis/ Genesis A New Translation with a Commentary Anthologized From Talmudic, Midrashic and Rabbinic Sources Translation and commentary by Rabbi Meir Zlotowitz with Overviews by Rabbi Nosson Scherman and a Foreword by HaGoan HaRav Mordechai Gifter, published by Mesorah Publication Ltd:
…The sages unanimously identify Malchizedek, King of Salem as Shem, son of Noah (Rashi). He was so called because he was king [melech] over a place known for its righteousness [zedek] (Ibn Ezra); a place which would not tolerate any form of injustice or abomination for an extended time period (Radak); or, according to Ramban, because he ruled over the future site of the Temple, home of the zedek, the righteous Shechinah, which was known even then to be sacred. Thus, Malchizedek might designate him as “king of the place of zedek, righteousness.”
Just below wee see a reference to Shem on 10:21, among others, which reads in part: Why should the Torah associate him (Shem) with Eber more than any other of his offspring? …Shem was the primogenitor of all the descendants of Eber from who came forth the Hebrews (Radak, Ibn Ezra)…Although Shem had may descendants, Eber’s children were the most favored of his offspring because they were righteous like him (Arbarbanel). Sforno comments that those who believed in god were called I(b)rim, after Eber their teacher. Shem, because he was also their teacher, is called the “father” of Eber’s “children” meaning his “students”, because students are called the children of their teacher. [As a side note, it is also Jewish a belief that Jacob spent 14 years engaged at the Academy of Eber in Jerusalem]
Back to the notes on 14:18: Ramban explains that Shem was the most honored among the generation of Canaanites, and he therefore became the priest of God the most high in Jerusalem…
Back to the topic at hand, is the term Hebrew used in the Exodus story? Why yes it is, in fact is used at least 9 times:
Chapter 1:15 The king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, whose names were Shiphrah and Puah, 16 "When you help the Hebrew women in childbirth and observe them on the delivery stool, if it is a boy, kill him; but if it is a girl, let her live." 17 The midwives, however, feared God and did not do what the king of Egypt had told them to do; they let the boys live. 18 Then the king of Egypt summoned the midwives and asked them, "Why have you done this? Why have you let the boys live?"
19 The midwives answered Pharaoh, "Hebrew women are not like Egyptian women; they are vigorous and give birth before the midwives arrive."
2:6 She opened it and saw the baby. He was crying, and she felt sorry for him. "This is one of the Hebrew babies," she said.
7 Then his sister asked Pharaoh's daughter, "Shall I go and get one of the Hebrew women to nurse the baby for you?"
11 One day, after Moses had grown up, he went out to where his own people were and watched them at their hard labor. He saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew, one of his own people. 12 Glancing this way and that and seeing no one, he killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand. 13 The next day he went out and saw two Hebrews fighting. He asked the one in the wrong, "Why are you hitting your fellow Hebrew?"
21:2 "If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything.
Now, even more phenomenally, the God of the Patriarchs transforms into none other than the God of the Hebrews! We see this at least 6 times:
Exodus 3:18
"The elders of Israel will listen to you. Then you and the elders are to go to the king of Egypt and say to him, 'The LORD, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us. Let us take a three-day journey into the desert to offer sacrifices to the LORD our God.
Exodus 5:3
Then they said, "The God of the Hebrews has met with us. Now let us take a three-day journey into the desert to offer sacrifices to the LORD our God, or he may strike us with plagues or with the sword."
Exodus 7:16
Then say to him, 'The LORD, the God of the Hebrews, has sent me to say to you: Let my people go, so that they may worship me in the desert. But until now you have not listened
Exodus 9:1
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh and say to him, 'This is what the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, says: "Let my people go, so that they may worship me."
Exodus 9:13
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Get up early in the morning, confront Pharaoh and say to him, 'This is what the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, says: Let my people go, so that they may worship me
Exodus 10:3
So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and said to him, "This is what the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, says: 'How long will you refuse to humble yourself before me? Let my people go, so that they may worship me.
So the “God of the Exodus” in fact becomes the God of the righteous descendants of Shem through his “son” Eber! Now if we apply this to Deuteronomy18: 18, we get:
17 The LORD said to me: "What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among “the righteous descendants of Shem through his “son” Eber”; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.
We now have a translation that is correct as well as accurate that CAN apply to a descendant of Eber in the form of ANY descendant of Ishmael!
Its fascinating isn't it? Now I can already hear the Christians questioning whether or not Ishmael and his descendants have any claim to the title righteous! Well, that’s part 2, Insha’ Allah!
Re: Refutation: "From among their brethren..." (A Jewish brethren only?)
Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,
Greetings Gene,
Here's assessment of Ishmael's righteousness:
Was Ishmael righteous?
Most of us remember Ishmael in Genesis by the comment, he shall be “a wild-ass of a man” and some consider him to be somehow illegitimate.
Let us clear up these misconceptions. For sources we’ll use The Stone Edition Chumash The Torah, Haftaros and Five Megillos with A Commentary Anthologized From The Rabbinic Writings by Mesorah Publishing as well as the Artscroll Tanach Series Bereishsis/ Genesis A New Translation with a Commentary Anthologized From Talmudic, Midrashic and Rabbinic Sources Translation and commentary by Rabbi Meir Zlotowitz with Overviews by Rabbi Nosson Scherman and a Foreword by HaGoan HaRav Mordechai Gifter, published by Mesorah Publication Ltd, hereafter referred to as the Chumash or Bereishsis/ Genesis respectively.
From the Chumash we read 16:3, So Sarai, Abram’s wife, took Hagar the Egyptian, her maidservant – after 10 years of Abram’s dwelling in the Land of Canaan – and gave her to Abram her husband, to him as a wife. He consorted with Hagar and she conceived; and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was lowered in her esteem.
16 The Birth of Ishmael. Despite their spiritual riches and Godly assurances, Abraham and Sarah were still heartbroken at their barrenness, for without heirs they would not be able to continue the mission of Bringing God’s teaching to mankind. Recognizing that it was she who was infertile, Sarah suggested that Abraham marry her maidservant Hagar, and, if a son were born, Sarah would raise him, so that he would be considered her adopted child.
Hagar was a daughter of Pharaoh. After seeing the miracles that were brought on Sarah’s behalf when she was abducted and taken to his palace, he gave her to Hagar, saying, “Better that she be a servant in their house, than a princess in someone else’s.” So it was that Hagar, an Egyptian princess, became Abraham’s wife and bore him Ishmael.
In the notes to verse 4 – Her mistress was lowered. Hagar brazenly boasted to the ladies, “Since so many years have passed without Sarai having children, she cannot be as righteous as she seems. But I conceived immediately!” (Rashi). Now that Hagar had assured Abraham’s posterity, she no longer felt subservient to Sarah (Radak).
A few notes about Sarah and Hagar from verses 6 – 8:
Verse 6 “your maidservant is in your hand; do to her as you see fit.” To me she is a wife; and I have no right to treat her unkindly. But to you she is a servant; if she mistreats you, do what you feel is right. (Radak; Haamek Davar). Sarah’s intent was not malicious, but to force Hagar to cease from her insulting demeanor. But instead of acknowledging Sarah’s superior position, Hagar fled (Arbarbanel; Sforno).
Rabbi Aryeh Levin noted that it is congruous to believe that a woman as righteous as Sarah would persecute another human being out of personal pique. Rather, Sarah treated Hagar as she always had, but in the light of Hagar’s newly inflated self-image, she took it as persecution.
We’ll leave the issue of Hagar for the moment except to pause to list the prophecies about Ishmael AT THIS TIME:
V10 And an Angel of Hashem said to her, “I will greatly increase your offspring, and they will not be counted for abundance.”
V 11 And an Angel of Hashem said to her, “Behold, you will conceive, and give birth to a son; his name shall be Ishmael, for Hashem has heard your prayer. And he shall be a wild-ass of a man; his hand against everyone, and everyone’s hand against him; and over all his brothers shall he dwell.”
The prophecy in verse 10 sounds VERY familiar to ones about Abraham’s’ descendants, while verse 11 gives us our other prophecy. We will return to Hagar later, Insha’ Allah.
Let us return to matter relating to Israel’s uncle Ishmael. In chapter 17, Chumash, God is speaking to Abraham about their covenant and promising a son through Sarah, Abraham interrupts God:
v18 And Abraham said to God, “Oh that Ishmael might live before You!” God said, “Nonetheless, your wife Sarah will bear you a son and you shall call his name Isaac…v 20 But regarding Ishmael I have heard you; I have blessed him, will make him fruitful, and will increase him most exceedingly; he will beget twelve princes and I will make him into a great nation…”
Part of the notes for this verse read: “We see from the prophecy in this verse, that 2337 years elapsed before the Arabs, Ishmael’s descendants, became a great nation [with the rise of Islam in the 7th Century C.E.]…Throughout this period, Ishmael hoped anxiously, until the promise was fulfilled and they dominated the world. We the descendants of Isaac, for whom the fulfillment of the promises made to us is delayed due to our sins…should surely anticipate the fulfillment of God’s promises and not despair” (R’ Bachya citing R’ Chananel).
Bereishsis/ Genesis adds: R’ Bachya cites R’ Chananel’s comment on this verse: We see from this prophecy [in the year 2047 from Creation, when Abraham was ninety-nine], 2337 years elapsed before the Arabs, Ishmael’s descendants, became a great nation. [This would correspond to 624 C.E, two years after the H(ijra)!…] to be honest, I totally missed the hijra comment the first time I read this because I wasn’t a Muslim and I didn’t know what they meant by hegira! But we do have one prophecy that at least according to the Jews, puts Islam as an Old Testament prophecy!
I got lazy and copied this from the Jewish Publication Society, the first half of Genesis chapter 25:
1 And Abraham took another wife, and her name was Keturah.
2 And she bore him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah
3 And Jokshan begot Sheba, and Dedan. And the sons of Dedan were Asshurim, and Letushim, and Leummim.
4 And the sons of Midian: Ephah, and Epher, and Hanoch, and Abida, and Eldaah. All these were the children of Keturah.
5 And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac.
6 But unto the sons of the concubines, that Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts; and he sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.
7 And these are the days of the years of Abraham's life which he lived, a hundred threescore and fifteen years
8 And Abraham expired, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.
9 And Isaac and Ishmael his sons buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which is before Mamre;
10 the field which Abraham purchased of the children of Heth; there was Abraham buried, and Sarah his wife.
11 And it came to pass after the death of Abraham, that God blessed Isaac his son; and Isaac dwelt by Beer-lahai-roi.
12 Now these are the generations of Ishmael, Abraham's son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's handmaid, bore unto Abraham.
13 And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: the first-born of Ishmael, Nebaioth; and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam,
14 and Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa;
15 Hadad, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedem;
16 these are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their villages, and by their encampments; twelve princes according to their nations
17 And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, a hundred and thirty and seven years; and he expired and died; and was gathered unto his people.
18 And they dwelt from Havilah unto Shur that is before Egypt, as thou goest toward Asshur: over against all his brethren he did settle.
Let’s begin with the part dealing with Ishmael first. We see in verse 9 that both Isaac and Ishmael buried their Abraham, what does this tell us? Well, for one, we can confirm that there was NEVER a time during Abraham’s life when Isaac was Abraham’s firstborn, NOR was there EVER a time during Abraham’s life when Isaac was to Abraham “your son, your only son”. Those terms could ONLY be used to describe Ishmael, Abraham’s firstborn son. But we are not here to speculate who changed THAT story!
In Bereishsis/ Genesis, the notes for verse 17. Ishmael’s age is given because it assists in calculations with respect to [dating the various events which occurred during the life of] Jacob (Rashi [Yevamos 64a]) [and this is footnoted, which reads in part: 1 Rashi goes on to explain that we calculate from Ishmael’s age at his death that Jacob attended the Academy of Eber for fourteen years from the time he left his fathers’ house to the time he arrived at Laban’s house (as explained in Megillah 17a); to which we have the sub footnote: [Briefly, according to the data cited in Megillah 17a, when Jacob stood before Pharaoh he should have been 116 years old, yet Jacob himself gave his age as 130(Gen. 47:9). The discrepancy is explained by the fact that he spent fourteen years in the Academy of Eber after leaving his fathers’ house.]
According to Ramban [to this verse but cited in v12] Ishmael’s age is noted here because he repented and the age of the righteous is generally stated. Rashbam holds that it is recorded as a mark of honor for Abraham. Since the torah had mentioned Abraham’s age at Ishmael’s birth, and Ishmael’s age when he underwent circumcision. It now concludes by mentioning his lifespan. Further on we read Rashi comments that…is only mentioned in the case of righteous people [such as Ishmael, since he repented…]…
According to R’ Bachya it [the phrase “and was gathered unto his people”] is based the use in our verse of both expired and died – which refer to the death only of the righteous – and the Sages said that Ishmael repented of his evil ways.
So whatever ill will the Jews may harbor against Ishmael [that they say he had “evil” ways], he is cleared of any error and claimed by JEWISH Sages to be “of the righteous!” note the similarity in regards to Abraham in verse 8 And Abraham expired, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people. Compared to of Ishmael in verse 17 And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, a hundred and thirty and seven years; and he expired and died; and was gathered unto his people.
Also, consider that we saw in the notes to Genesis 16 “that Abraham and Sarah were still heartbroken at their barrenness, for without heirs they would not be able to continue the mission of Bringing God’s teaching to mankind. Recognizing that it was she who was infertile, Sarah suggested that Abraham marry her maidservant Hagar, and, if a son were born, Sarah would raise him, so that he would be considered her adopted child.” This tells us that it was the intent of Abraham and Sarah to raise Ishmael “so that he would be considered her adopted child!” it stands within reason but our case doesn’t rely solely on it, that in their job of “parenting” Ishmael [up until the birth of Isaac] that they would have sent him to the “Academy of Eber in Jerusalem” for proper training in the “mission of Bringing God’s teaching to mankind.” So from Ishmael's beginning and again at the end of his life we can put him in the category of the “sons” of Eber, and thus an Hebrew.
We will take another look at Hagar, just in case any see her as a reason to disqualify Ishmael as one of the “righteous.” Let’s look again at 25:1, And Abraham took another wife, and her name was Keturah.
The notes say that there is a Hebrew word in the phrase which means “again” which would literally mean: And Abraham again took a wife, which is interpreted by the Sages to intimate the Abraham remarried to before: Hagar.
Keturah is Hagar, who received this name because her deeds were as beautiful as incense [ketores]; also because she remained chaste…from the time she had separated from Abraham (Midrash; Rashi).
In 21:14 Rashi comments that Hagar reverted to the idolatry of her father’s house. How then does he now call her action “beautiful as incense?” – Rather, when she was expelled from Abraham’s household she felt forsaken even by his God and she intended to revert to her idolatrous ways. But when the miracle occurred at the well, she repented (Gur Aryeh).
The Zohar similarly comments that although she had relapsed into her ancestral idolatry, she later repented and changed her name, after which Abraham sent for and married her. From this we see that a change of name males atonement for guilt, for she made this change of name symbolic of her change of behavior.
[Immediately following this there is a note discussing some Hebrew phraseology which…denotes that Keturah was righteous and fit for Abraham.]
Although Hagar/Keturah was a first generation Egyptian and hence forbidden in marriage [see Deut.32: 9], nevertheless, since his first marriage to her was with God’s sanction, she remained permissible to him for remarriage as well. Furthermore, the Midrash [Bereishis Rabbah 60:4] specifically states that Abraham married Keturah/Hagar by Divine Command (Tur).
Targum Yonasan renders the verse: and Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah; she is Hagar who had been bound to him…from the beginning.
So we here additionally that if there were any ill feelings on the part of the Jews for Hagar, regardless of whether or not she is Keturah, the Jewish sources claim that not only was Hagar “permissible” for Abraham, but they actually speak quite highly of her considering the circumstances. Based on that I would reject any effort to disqualify Ishmael as a “son of Eber” based upon anything said about him or his mother, Hagar."
that shows not only that Ishmael is among "their brethren," but that ISLAM is prophesied DIRECTLY in the Torah. and Islam did indeed have a Prophet[PBUH] that :
1) Allah raised up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers
2) Allah put His words in his mouth and
3) he[Muhammad]told them everything I commanded him
looks pretty conclusive to me!
The post seems to be arguing that "the righteous descendants of Shem through his "son" Eber" is a possible referent to the phrase "your brothers" in Hebrew. All well and good (though I must confess that I skim-read the argument so I'm not 100% on the details) - as I said before I'm willing to accept the possibility that "your brothers" could in some context refer to Ishmaelites. But the argument doesn't address the question of whether this is a plausible or even likely interpretation in the particular case of Deut 18 - it just says "now if we apply..." without any reason why we should apply it in this case.format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
Forgive me if I've missed where this is argued in your post, but I couldn't find it - indeed most of it seemed rather irrelevant to the discussion (especially the random bit on Melchizedek...).
Salam,
Shoes
P.S. For the record: I don't think Melchizedek is an example of Christophany (in fact, as far as I'm aware none of the Christians I know do).
SHoes, look at the link I gave you. The brethren argument has been discussed there between a pastor and a mod. Its a great discussion and this thread is futile.
That thread is a debate about whether "your brothers" could legitimately refer to the Ishmaelites, and I've made my position clear on this. But this is not the question I'm asking here. Let me phrase it differently: "your brothers" always refers to a particular people, be it a tribe within the Israelites, the Israelites as a whole, or other peoples closely related to the Israelites, such as the Edomites or (possibly) the Ishmaelites; why should we interpret the case in Deuteronomy to be the Ishmaelites rather than, say, the Israelites or the Edomites? I've made a general case based on the usage of the phrase in question why the Ishmaelites shouldn't be considered a possibility, namely that nowhere in Deuteronomy or in the Tanakh does the phrase clearly refer to the Ishmaelites.
I hope this clears up what this thread is about.
Salam,
Shoes
Did you even read the other one? Try it please.format_quote Originally Posted by Shoes
Yep, I did...where did I miss the argument?
Salam,
Shoes
"according to Ex 32:9," "I have seen these people," the LORD said to Moses, "and they are a stiff-necked people. 10 Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation."format_quote Originally Posted by Shoes
we are told here in Prophecy that when Allah has had His fill of "the stiff necked people" and that He ultimately will destroy them. we are also told that when He does, He will transfer the covenant to Moses descendants. who are Moses' descendants? ISHMAELITES!
you might want to read the post!
YusufNoor, forgive me, but I don't see how your post applies to the interpretation of Deut 18...where is the justification?
Salam,
Shoes
P.S. OK, Hebrews says Jesus was a high priest in the order of Melchizedek...how does this statement identify Melchizedek as Jesus? The passage is saying Melchizedek is a type (as in typology) of Christ.
At present, I have just one question: How did I get drawn in this?
I hadn't even posted in this thread till now.format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
There are difficulties in Christian belief if a/the prophet refers to Jesus/Isa a.s.format_quote Originally Posted by Shoes
Deut.18 "...everything I command him" and
Deut.20 "But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say..."
indicate a hierarchy in chain-of-command. If him=a prophet=Jesus then it refutes Jesus co-equal status in trinity (AstagFirullah).
Deut.20 "...But a prophet ...must be put to death."
Jesus was put to death (according to Christian beliefs) implies he spoke things he was not commanded to say or he spoke in the name of other gods (AstagFirullah)... it refutes....no details since it's just getting worse...
However, it is just so-right if a/the prophet refers to Muhammad S.a.w
Deut.18 "...everything I command him" and
Deut.20 "But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say..."
Muhammad S.a.w. is abduhu wa Rasullah implies subject to be commanded.
Deut.20 "...But a prophet ...must be put to death."
Muhammad S.a.w. died from natural caused implies he spoke things he was commanded to say and he does NOT speak in the name of other gods.
Deut.19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.
"I Listen and obey. Do write me as a Muslim"
These "difficulties" aside, gang4, what do you think of the questions that I've actually raised in the thread?
Salam,
Shoes
salaam
I think Yusuf Noors posts give a good expalnaition even in his other thread which he has posted.
peace
Do you think his posts have addressed the questions I raised? I'm afraid I've yet to see an explanation of the lack of mention of the Ishmaelites in Deuteronomy.
Salam,
Shoes
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