the message of prophets in christianity

[Malaikah]

Hi there,

I was just thinking, what did the prophets preach in the christain version of their stories? Did they ever say that God is in three parts and did they ever make mention of the father, son and holy spirit?

Also, are their stories derived from the OT, NT or both?

[Umar001]

Assalamu Aleykum Wa Rhametulah,
Am really sorry, I know you asking from a Christian prospective and I am a Muslim and I tend to jump in these threads, hope you dont get annoyed if you do say and I will keep away

Hi there,

I was just thinking, what did the prophets preach in the christain version of their stories? Did they ever say that God is in three parts and did they ever make mention of the father, son and holy spirit?

Also, are their stories derived from the OT, NT or both?

To be honest with you, I have heard many stories, and so forth based on 'interpretation' because there is no definate interpretation, i.e. in Islam you have a Tafsir which quotes the Prophet and Sahabi explaining verses and so on so you interpret it that way, in Christianity I have never come across such a thing.

Anyhow, so interpretations are more open, some conclude that whenever G-d is said to have appeard on earth it was 'the son' I,e, when the angels and the lord appeard to Abraham, that is supposed to mean that the lord was a part of the Trinity, the Son, in human form and so on, and other stories such as wen it speaks about the Spirit of G-d and so on.

Though, if you read some of the way some Jews understand the same verses you'd see a different view, which may or may not be more logical or probable.

Hope this thread brings up much more understanding and dialogue.



Eesa.

[duskiness]

I was just thinking, what did the prophets preach in the christain version of their stories?

they preached a lot!! Bible is bigger (in text volume) than Quran and books about prophets are longer.

Did they ever say that God is in three parts and did they ever make mention of the father, son and holy spirit?

No, our understanding of God as Trinity -a we see it- came with God's revelation in Jesus. But we believe that there are prophecies and traces of it in OT.

side note:
we believe in God in three Person, not parts.

Also, are their stories derived from the OT, NT or both?

Stories are form OT (so they are the same for Jews and us). NT is about Jesus and His disciples

hehe i thought the old testament was the torah :S

Torah are first 5 books of OT/Tanakh(=Jewish term). So Tora is just a part of OT.

[Malaikah]

Am really sorry, I know you asking from a Christian prospective and I am a Muslim and I tend to jump in these threads, hope you dont get annoyed if you do say and I will keep away

Its ok lol, feel free. Your post was interesting.

No, our understanding of God as Trinity -a we see it- came with God's revelation in Jesus. But we believe that there are prophecies and traces of it in OT.

Thanks for the reply. But... why would God conceal the trinity from all the prophets? isnt that kinda like 'deception', for lack of a better word? seems pretty odd that all these prophets would be preaching "God is one" etc and then all of a sudden God is in three persons?

[glo]

Its ok lol, feel free. Your post was interesting.



Thanks for the reply. But... why would God conceal the trinity from all the prophets? isnt that kinda like 'deception', for lack of a better word? seems pretty odd that all these prophets would be preaching "God is one" etc and then all of a sudden God is in three persons?

Hi cheese

I am reading an article about this topic at the moment.
It is very interesting, but will take me lot of time to cross-reference and read up in the Bible.

If I find anything that's worth sharing, I'll bring it back here.

Peace

[dougmusr]

Hi cheese

I am reading an article about this topic at the moment.
It is very interesting, but will take me lot of time to cross-reference and read up in the Bible.

If I find anything that's worth sharing, I'll bring it back here.

Peace

I've posted this before but check out Isaiah 48:12-16.

The speaker is eternal.

48:12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.

The speaker is the creator.

48:13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them, They stand up together.

The speaker who is the eternal creator was sent by the Lord GOD and His Spirit.

48:16 "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me."

[Grace Seeker]

Thanks for the reply. But... why would God conceal the trinity from all the prophets? isnt that kinda like 'deception', for lack of a better word? seems pretty odd that all these prophets would be preaching "God is one" etc and then all of a sudden God is in three persons?

Duskiness didn't say that God concealed the trinity, what she said was that

our understanding of God as Trinity came with God's revelation in Jesus.

There is a difference. Christians don't think of God concealing things from people, rather Jesus is quoted as saying "let those who have ears to hear, hear". So it can be that people don't understand until their hearts and minds are prepared to receive.

Duskiness also did go on to say that there are traces of the concept of the Trinity in Old Testament -- for instance in the act of creation God says,

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness..."

The Hebrew in this verse is plural. That is not just in the Christian bible either, that is in the Totah. And there are other examples.

[Grace Seeker]

Thanks for the reply. But... why would God conceal the trinity from all the prophets? isnt that kinda like 'deception', for lack of a better word? seems pretty odd that all these prophets would be preaching "God is one" etc and then all of a sudden God is in three persons?

Cheese,
I hope you will forgive the long response, but you've asked several questions in one, perhaps without realizing it.
1) One question is about what was the message of the prophets?
2) Another, implied but unasked by the way you put it, is the message of the Christian and the Jewish prophets the same or different?
3) Was the concept of the Trinity delivered as a message of God through the prophets?

Behind all of that is an unasked question that one has to understand before one can talk about these individual questions, and that is what is the Christian understanding of prophecy?

Christians don't view prophecy as any and all speech uttered by a person recognized as a prophet. Prophecy is specifically speaking forth on God's behalf. Thus, it is possbile that even persons who are not prophets can speak prophetically. In fact, the speaker does not even have to be a person -- in Numbers 22 there is the story of a prophet Balaam who has been hired by an enemy of the nation of Israel to curse them, but God sends an angel to stand in his way and oppose him from doing so. Balaam does not seek the angel of God, but the donkey does and speaks of it to Balaam. Thus, anyone or anything speaking forth on God's behalf is speaking prophetically.



1) One question is about what was the message of the prophets?

You are aware that there are many prophets. They all spoke on God's behalf, but they spoke to different people facing different life situations and thus they have many different messages, not just one message. I believe this is a significant difference in understanding from the role of a prophet in Islam. Christians do not believe that each prophet was for just for one group of people and to that group of people delivered the sum total of a single message from God that each succeeding prophet repeated. Rather, Christians believe that each prophet added progressively more and more to God's own self-disclosing revelation of God's self till that self-revelation reached its zenith in Jesus as God manifesting God's self among humankind.

Before Moses, God revealed himself to people and asked them to commit themselves personally to live in relationship with him and made promises of blessings that would be passed on to their children and their children's children.

In Moses, God revealed himself as claiming a whole nation for himself. And he established some principles of how they were to live in order to carry out that relationship. Following Moses, most of the prophets' messages had to do with the people's ability (or lack thereof) to live a life that was truly submissive to God will and the concept of judgment that would come in "the day of the Lord."

Now there are several possible interpretations of the coming "day of the Lord." In some ways, the various exiles that the Jews suffered were seen as this "day of the Lord" in that it pronounced judgment on them for their unfaithfulness. And there was also the concept of a future, apocalyptic "day of the Lord" (many Christians share this view). But Jesus' birth, as the incarnate manifestion of God come in the flesh to dwell among us, is also an inbreaking "day of the Lord". And now subsequent to Jesus making God known by being God personally living among us, there is no need for any subsequent new revelation that does not have to do with Jesus. That doesn't mean that there are no more prophecies (though a few Christians think they have ceased) just that one that purports to speak forth on God's behalf and denying the revelation of Jesus would be understood to be a false prophet by Christians.



2) Another, implied but unasked by the way you put it, is the message of the Christian and the Jewish prophets the same or different?

Not being Jewish, I don't know that I cannot adequately address this question. My first thought is that both Christians and Jews would recognize the messages of those that Christians call the Old Testament prophets, but might have different interpreations as to how those messages are to be applied.



3) Was the concept of the Trinity delivered as a message of God through the prophets?

No.

The concept of the Trinity is not even mentioned by name any place in scripture. It is a concept, an understanding derived from not any single verse saying something akin to "The Lord your God is one, but exists in three persons." That statement, which Christians do affirm, is a very human statement. It comes as an expression of the understanding of the totality of God's self-revelation, not a singular expression.

Think of it as a label, and nothing more. It was, as I am sure you probably know, a formulaic expression developed by the church in places like Nicea and Chalcedon long after the completion of the Bible. It is not revelation. It is not even necessary to recite one of those creeds which make those statements to be Christian. Those creeds, indeed the formulaic expression of the three-in-one God was devised as a teaching tool. As a very wise Christians author, C.S. Lewis once wrote, it is an illustration of the faith, don't mistake the illustration or the explanation for the faith. If the illustration doesn't illuminate things for you, then don't use it, throw it away. Just don't throw away your faith and experience of God who does make himself known to us not only as creator, but who also comes to us in Jesus as redeemer and who sends his own spirit to infuse our lives with his intimate presence.

[Malaikah]

Grace Seeker,

Thank you for the reply.

So what you are saying is, not only did the Prophets not deliver a message about the trinity, neither did Jesus?

And if Jesus had no such message, and that the concept of the trinity was made by somehow 'connecting the dots' between some verses, how did he ever get elevated to the status of one of the persons of God?

Those creeds, indeed the formulaic expression of the three-in-one God was devised as a teaching tool.

So the trinity is a teaching tool? For what exactly? Isnt that the same as inventing a lie about God?

[Skillganon]

Take a history lesson in the early christianity. Their is lot of information even in the existing scripture's that reveal if looked closely REVEALS startling things.

[Grace Seeker]

Grace Seeker,

Thank you for the reply.

Thank-you for seeking answers to your questions. I am sure there are those who could answer better than I, but I will gladly do my best.

So what you are saying is, not only did the Prophets not deliver a message about the trinity, neither did Jesus?

True.
Jesus' message was prinicipally about how one should live as an individual who belongs to the kingdom of God.

And if Jesus had no such message, and that the conpect of the trinity was made by somehow 'connecting the dots' between some verses,

I like the way you descirbe that.

how did he ever get elevated to the status of one of the persons of God?

So the trinity is a teaching tool? For what exactly? Isnt that the same as inventing a lie about God?

Unless of course in connecting the dots we see better the picture God means for us to have of himself.

Remember the earliest Christians were all strict monotheistic Jews. And yet, they had experienced meeting God in Jesus. That was hard for them to reconcile, unless of course one believes that it was the very same one true God who they had always worship that one had somehow also encountered in the person of Jesus. Then, too, at the event known as Pentecost, they had another experience of God who came upon them with the indwelling of God's very own spirit. They knew it was a real experience of God, the one same God they knew already as Father (a term in common use by Jews of that day), and now they also knew this very same God manifested in Jesus and in this manifestation of God's spirit. Here they had an experience of God and no words to describe it. So, they "invented", as you say, a word to at least label this indescribable mystery of their experience. It wasn't a lie, it was putting into human words that which they had experienced of God in their own lives so that they might communicate it to others.

The word "Trinity" would not be coined to label that experience for many more years, but the actual experience and descriptions of that experience are recorded in the writings of the New Testament.


Now I did not address very fully how it is that Jesus came to be seen and understood as God. I just said that he was understood that way by even his original disciples. (By the way, I do think Jesus revealed to those who had ears to hear that he was God.) As you posted the original question for this thread I will attempt an answer here if you so desire, or I can do it in a thread dedicated to that subject?

[duskiness]

So the trinity is a teaching tool? For what exactly? Isnt that the same as
inventing a lie about God?

Cheese, every word you will speak about God is only a "teaching tool". Whether you will say, "just" or "all powerful" or "Trinity". i just think that some words describe Him better than others.
Why do you presume that "teaching tool" = "lie" ?

And if Jesus had no such message, and that the conpect of the trinity was made by somehow 'connecting the dots' between some verses, how did he ever get elevated to the status of one of the persons of God?

I think, that it was in Jesus teaching but for sure it wasn't that clear. I seems that He didn't make such a big deal about theology.
How was He elevated to status of God? Well, because of what He said and what He did. Cheese, all Christians agree that something very, very important happened 2000 years ago in Jerusalem. And since then we are trying to understand what and wrap it into words. Trinity is one of common ways of speaking about it. It is - as i believe - the most accurate way of speaking about Him.

[Malaikah]

Unless of course in connecting the dots we see better the picture God means for us to have of himself.

But why the lack of certainty? Surely if Jesus was the son of God and he claimed to be so, then it would have been probably the number one most imporant thing in christianity, and it should be very clear cut and not in need to putting things together by connecting verses?

So, they "invented", as you say, a word to at least label this indescribable mystery of their experience. It wasn't a lie, it was putting into human words that which they had experienced of God in their own lives so that they might communicate it to others.

So what you are saying is that, the idea that God is in three persons existed since the time of Jesus and those who knew him? But if thats the case where does the 'connecting the dots' thing fit in?

From my understanding of what you said, the idea of God being three persons came well after the bible was written, so how do you even know that Jesus's companions thought he was God?

Now I did not address very fully how it is that Jesus came to be seen and understood as God. I just said that he was understood that way by even his original disciples. (By the way, I do think Jesus revealed to those who had ears to hear that he was God.) As you posted the original question for this thread I will attempt an answer here if you so desire, or I can do it in a thread dedicated to that subject?

You may answer it here. Again, if Jesus was God then why did you qoute that person earlier who said that you dont need to believe in the trinity?

[Malaikah]

Cheese, every word you will speak about God is only a "teaching tool". Whether you will say, "just" or "all powerful" or "Trinity". i just think that some words describe Him better than others.
Why do you presume that "teaching tool" = "lie" ?

From what i had read in Grace Seekers post, i understood that the concept of the trinity was understood in order to help people understand the nature of God- i took this to mean that they were assigning a quality to God that He did not asign to Himself, which would be telling a lie. Unless I misunderstood?

I think, that it was in Jesus teaching but for sure it wasn't that clear. I seems that He didn't make such a big deal about theology.
How was He elevated to status of God? Well, because of what He said and what He did. Cheese, all Christians agree that something very, very important happened 2000 years ago in Jerusalem. And since then we are trying to understand what and wrap it into words. Trinity is one of common ways of speaking about it. It is - as i believe - the most accurate way of speaking about Him.

Like I said before- it would be a pretty big deal that God came down to earth in human form. Why does it seem that such an fundamental aspect of christianity- the trinity- is clouded by uncerainty?

For example- it is stressed so much in Islam and in the Quran and hadiths that God is One, so much so that there can be no uncertainty whatsoever that the Islamic teaching is that there is just one God. Its very, very explicit. And yet in christianty, the concept of the trinity cant be developed unless you connect concepts developed from verses here and there?

Also, my original questions hasnt been answers about why all the other prophets didnt know about the trinity?

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you cheese;

it is stressed so much in Islam and in the Quran and hadiths that God is One,

Scriptures are to inspire people to do something; I believe that the Trinitarian Scriptures concerning God the Father and Christ are to do with relationships.

You might look on a marriage as two separate people coming together; if they have a good marriage they might be regarded as one through a perfect relationship.

In the same kind of way I look on the Father ( God ) being perfect and having a perfect relationship with his son Jesus, who is also perfect.

In the Bible it talks of Christ being one with the Father; one with the church, and it talks of a man and a woman becoming as one flesh when they marry. I feel that oneness refers to a perfect relationship between two parties.

We talk of God being the greatest source of love and mercy, and I wonder if the words of the two greatest commandments applied to God before he gave them to us.

God loves all that he is with all his heart, soul, mind and strength?
God loves each and everyone of us as he loves himself?

God loves Christ as he loves himself?
Christ loves the Father as he loves himself?

Could God love us more than he loves himself?

The third part of the Trinity the Holy Spirit is to do with the power that comes out of a perfect relationship with both God and our neighbour.

An example of the spirit at work might be to look at the disciples of Jesus, they seemed fairly timid people until they received the gift of the Holy Spirit. From the moment they received the Holy Spirit a tremendous courage and wisdom came to them to proclaim God’s word. The people who heard them were immediately inspired.

In the spirit of searching
Eric

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Peace Eric ,

Just out of curiosity, are you saying your understanding is that jesus and God are equal in perfection however there is only one God?

so, and forgive me if im understanding wrong, but the trinity states that God is in the spirit and jesus, therefore the spirit (gabriel) and jesus are equal to God?



Im sorry if i have misunderstoood.


Hope to understand more

[duskiness]

IbnAbdulHakim,
In know that you were asking Eric and i won't claim i know what he thinks...
but i know basics of Trinity:
we believe there is only ONE god.
The one God is a Trinity.There are 3 persons of Trinity. Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.
Gabriel is an angel and not God.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^ Thanks.

[Eric H]

Greetings in peace IbnAbdulHakim;

I have just read my post again and please forgive me but I have left out the most important part. What I said is purely an interpretation that no church teaches, and I have no authority to say such a thing. But I know these words are challenging to people of all faiths, and so I offer these thoughts for people to meditate on and to challenge.

Just out of curiosity, are you saying your understanding is that jesus and God are equal in perfection however there is only one God?

so, and forgive me if im understanding wrong, but the trinity states that God is in the spirit and jesus, therefore the spirit (gabriel) and jesus are equal to God?

It is probably not the answer you want o hear to your question, but I feel that the only way for you to find answers is to read the Bible for yourself and seek a greatest good understanding that inspires you to do something.

The reason I suggest this approach is because you could ask a number of Christians and you might get a number of responses. The best understanding you could get is the one that has a greatest meaning for you, but you would have to search for this yourself.

Please forgive me if I seem evasive with my answer, but I think we often gain a greater understanding by searching for ourself.

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Peace

if it wasnt for the hadith in which Muhammad saws said that if Musa AS was alive then he would have followed him after seeing Umar RA reading the torah then i most certainly would have read all the bibles.

I just feel that islam is too complete.

sorry for going off-topic, i was also wondering if christians think of jesus as a prophet at all? i understand you think his the son of God, but does that also make him a prophet? and also clearly you believe in jacob, joseph, jonah and the other prophets so according to your belief was jesus the last one?

Thanks for taking time to answer