I almost cringe when I see a thread directed toward atheists.. isn't their torture made more painful when they are presented with things which they inevitably reject after they've amused themselves with a chuckle or a guffaw?.. Won't all these articles and debates be a witness against them on the day of recompense than just letting them be in their mundane world?
Do we secretly want them to suffer a more grievous torture than those who have received no messengers, or are we genuinely concerned for their well fare from a humanitarian point of view?
their hearts are sealed and all efforts seems to drive them further into the opposite-- like smokers who have no desire to quit, or drunks who think they have no drinking problem or gamblers that are sure they are winners..
I have seen a few people who were successful at it, but it wasn't because they were actively giving da3wah.. In fact I am not quite sure their secret, especially this one physicist I know, who managed to convert two atheists a man and his daughter whom he eventually married, but I believe they came to him with questions rather than he approaching them on the topic.. I guess what I am asking is, what compelling evidence is there for a Muslim to offer da3wah to an atheist from a religious stand point? isn't it better if they have genuine questions to answer them rather than shove a million 9000 word article for which they can't seem to get past the first line without feeling some un-curable itch?
An interesting topic we should not debate at all. But first I have a question: Why do we have this forum? The answer is to increase our knowledge and to share it with other people on this from aswell. People can be Muslims,non Muslims or even atheists right?
that is not what I am asking Yanal, I need religious evidence for offering atheists da3wah, not what you think is a purpose of this forum?
Isnt the biography of the Prophet enough? The people practising idols were pretty much atheists and why did he give dawah to them?
what does 'practicing idols' mean? if Idol worship is what you meant, then by definition it negates the concept of atheism.format_quote Originally Posted by Yanal
Idolatry and atheism aren't one in the same.
I have asked a specific question, don't take me on a ride through the country...
it is best to let someone with knowledge on the topic that is evidence based answer the question insha'Allah.
I know this brother. Masha'allah so pious!! An ex-Atheist too.
In fact, I'm an ex-Atheist myself also.
That's why.
How did you come to Islam? was it through active da3wah?
lol why you ask sis?
isnt it a duty from Allah upon all muslims?
In real life, I let them ask me questions and I answer. Because that shows that THEY actually want to know. Plus, some people simply do not want to talk about religion; and I'm cool with that - last thing I want to do is push people away from Islam by shoving islamic teachings down their throat (that is not how I roll!).
It'd be great if they did but tbh a lot of my friends do not have theistic conversations with me. In fact, if we are having a convo it's either about something hilarious or work related matters.
I think it's different for each and everyone of us. For me, I would like them to become muslim as I have seen and lived the benefits of Islam - I know the system works - heck, better than their own system (as a British Muslim, I have been able to assess both systems and have come to the conclusion that Islam is the better one). It's kind of like you know the benefits of not smoking, so you'd want your friends who do smoke, to stop smoking.Do we secretly want them to suffer a more grievous torture than those who have received no messengers, or are we genuinely concerned for their well fare from a humanitarian point of view?
I've encountered so many of these stereotypes from youtube, facebook and various other places on the internet. I recall a statement made by a speaker at the Islamic conference held last year. He said something along the lines of there are some people that you simply cannot convince i.e. trying to prove the existence of the sun to someone who is closing their eyes and simply contradicts any proof you give - it is pointless.their hearts are sealed and all efforts seems to drive them further into the opposite-- like smokers who have no desire to quit, or drunks who think they have no drinking problem or gamblers that are sure they are winners..
From 4 1/2 years of experience of i-dawah, I agree with him: there are definately some people who despite them asking the question, just will not listen. So don't bother wasting any more time with them; it is pointless.
But, this being said, I have encountered a fair amount that DO want to learn about Islam and they have never encountered a muslim or have only been fed propganda so unfortunately are jaded on the subject matter. Those guys/gals are the ones that deserve our attention. Unfortunately, it's difficult to sift them out from the time-wasters as they all ask the same questions (aisha marriage, jizya tax etc) and sometimes you make a mistake; you misjudge someone who actually wanted to learn for some ass who didn't.
/wall of text.
I think that is the only meaningful way of giving dawah/evangelise.format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skyeisn't it better if they have genuine questions to answer them rather than shove a million 9000 word article for which they can't seem to get past the first line without feeling some un-curable itch?
There is never much point preaching at people, unless they are willing to hear.
In other words, they need to be prompted by God to open their hearts and minds, before they can receive any knowledge and broaden their understanding.
Until such a time it is best to treat everybody as a 'believer-to-be' - with warmth, patience and a forgiving heart. If ever they choose to learn more and when they have questions, then we should be ready to hear them and give answers.
I think this applies to people from all different beliefs and worldviews, not just to Muslims or Christians.
Sister is it that you think you are wasting your time tryin to make them convert?
My thoughts exactlyformat_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
In real life, I let them ask me questions and I answer. Because that shows that THEY actually want to know. Plus, some people simply do not want to talk about religion; and I'm cool with that - last thing I want to do is push people away from Islam by shoving islamic teachings down their throat (that is not how I roll!).
It'd be great if they did but tbh a lot of my friends do not have theistic conversations with me. In fact, if we are having a convo it's either about something hilarious or work related matters.
I think it's different for each and everyone of us. For me, I would like them to become muslim as I have seen and lived the benefits of Islam - I know the system works - heck, better than their own system (as a British Muslim, I have been able to assess both systems and have come to the conclusion that Islam is the better one). It's kind of like you know the benefits of not smoking, so you'd want your friends who do smoke, to stop smoking.
I've encountered so many of these stereotypes from youtube, facebook and various other places on the internet. I recall a statement made by a speaker at the Islamic conference held last year. He said something along the lines of there are some people that you simply cannot convince i.e. trying to prove the existence of the sun to someone who is closing their eyes and simply contradicts any proof you give - it is pointless.
From 4 1/2 years of experience of i-dawah, I agree with him: there are definately some people who despite them asking the question, just will not listen. So don't bother wasting any more time with them; it is pointless.
But, this being said, I have encountered a fair amount that DO want to learn about Islam and they have never encountered a muslim or have only been fed propganda so unfortunately are jaded on the subject matter. Those guys/gals are the ones that deserve our attention. Unfortunately, it's difficult to sift them out from the time-wasters as they all ask the same questions (aisha marriage, jizya tax etc) and sometimes you make a mistake; you misjudge someone who actually wanted to learn for some ass who didn't.
/wall of text.
I agree in totality with that..format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
In real life, I let them ask me questions and I answer. Because that shows that THEY actually want to know. Plus, some people simply do not want to talk about religion; and I'm cool with that - last thing I want to do is push people away from Islam by shoving islamic teachings down their throat (that is not how I roll!).
Religion and politics the death of friendships, I am always bickering with my friends about those two, but somehow we stay friends in spite of my temperIt'd be great if they did but tbh a lot of my friends do not have theistic conversations with me. In fact, if we are having a convo it's either about something hilarious or work related matters.
Yeah but the operative words is friends.. you need some sort of impetus-- I am just not finding one with these run of the mill atheists. It is as if they have all shared a womb, I find slight variations in their ideologies but they almost all share the same religious zeal!
I think it's different for each and everyone of us. For me, I would like them to become muslim as I have seen and lived the benefits of Islam - I know the system works - heck, better than their own system (as a British Muslim, I have been able to assess both systems and have come to the conclusion that Islam is the better one). It's kind of like you know the benefits of not smoking, so you'd want your friends who do smoke, to stop smoking.
That is so true, plus their nasty and abusive attitude not to me as a person but toward anything holy, I find most intolerable!I've encountered so many of these stereotypes from youtube, facebook and various other places on the internet. I recall a statement made by a speaker at the Islamic conference held last year. He said something along the lines of there are some people that you simply cannot convince i.e. trying to prove the existence of the sun to someone who is closing their eyes and simply contradicts any proof you give - it is pointless.
Makes me almost glad for what is awaiting them.
ok and I find that in agreement with the Quran:From 4 1/2 years of experience of i-dawah, I agree with him: there are definately some people who despite them asking the question, just will not listen. So don't bother wasting any more time with them; it is pointless.
(2:6) As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.
Yeah, that is how I am finding most of them of the former not the latter.. haven't made a mistake yetBut, this being said, I have encountered a fair amount that DO want to learn about Islam and they have never encountered a muslim or have only been fed propganda so unfortunately are jaded on the subject matter. Those guys/gals are the ones that deserve our attention. Unfortunately, it's difficult to sift them out from the time-wasters as they all ask the same questions (aisha marriage, jizya tax etc) and sometimes you make a mistake; you misjudge someone who actually wanted to learn for some ass who didn't.
/wall of text.
a talk on Islam channel said there is ahadith stating that if you invite someone t Islam that you get equal their reward plus ur own. so GS keep banging ur head on the wall its not going unnoticed by Allah
Selam aleykum
I used to be an atheist...
Being an atheist doesn't mean that you're unable to change your viewpoints. So yes they have an equal right to receive dawah from us, as anybody else. And it is our duty to grant them that right.
Also, our responsibility lies only in explaining. If they reject it, and this testifies against them on the day of resurrection, we have not wronged them but they have wronged themselves.
Some advice: take a step back and see the bigger picture. Most of the time when debating, an opponent will keep keep being contradictory to you, even after going back and forth a few times. Giving one the impression that it was all fruitless. Yet if the debate goes back and forth a few posts, and I look at the first post, and the last post made from the atheist, I do frequently get the impression that there's a big difference, a step in the right direction. You shouldn't focus on how they keep being atheistic, and keep denying the general concept you're debating on. That is just pride. When debating, people generally feel like their own pride is on the line. This isn't just for atheists, Muslims often have this to, even though proudness is very bad in Islam. Another thing you can see, looking at the bigger picture, is how sometimes certain atheists might take a position in debate and don't yield to any arguments, and appear stubborn on the issue, and then many months later a similar debate arises, and then this person suddenly takes the other side of the debate and you see recycled versions of your earlier arguments. It's not always for people to admit that they were wrong, even if they realize it. Or maybe they don't realize it directly, but then so time later something happens that makes them think about it again, and this time they do realize it because the thought has had time to break trough.There can be a huge difference between what you can see in the forumthreads, and what you cannot see in there.
Also, regarding the copy pastes and flamers and trolls and so on. There are indeed people who are closed-minded, and to whom no amount of dawah will avail. But there are also atheistic people who debate with the general intent of seeking the truth, and consider the possibility of being wrong while debating. We can never be a 100% sure of someone's intention, so we should give all people the benefit of the doubt.
Last edited by Abdul Fattah; 06-15-2009 at 07:41 PM.
actually just a correction for those atheist turned Muslim, you were never atheist just agnostic. the meaning of atheist is you firmly do not believe and nothing will change. thats the very meaning of atheism, so yes i am guessing it is pointless to give dahwah to an atheist because if you look at it from an atheist's point of view they view religious people as intellectually inferior and nothing short of loons. that previously held biased tunes out anything a religious person has to say. its sort of how we prejudge those bible thumping Christians do we not? i know i laugh every time the people of jesus christ of the latter day saints come around to spread their religion
Last edited by themuffinman; 06-16-2009 at 07:24 AM.
Our reponsibility is just to give dawah in the best way to our ability, rest is up to Allah. It doesn't matter if those people have pride and prejudice... I believe even even Dawkins can have change of heart too and come to Islam. That would still make him ex-atheist rather than ex-agnostic.format_quote Originally Posted by themuffinman
Selam aleykum
I know the meaning of atheist and at some point I was an atheist, meaning at some point in my life I was genuinely convinced that no God exists, and that the idea is ridiculous and illogical.format_quote Originally Posted by themuffinman
This "nothing can change" clause is not true. Everybody can always change there mind if they learn new things, or have new experiences, even atheists.the meaning of atheist is you firmly do not believe and nothing will change.
[quote] they view religious people as intellectually inferior and nothing short of loons. that previously held biased tunes out anything a religious person has to say.
Yes, I thought this to, I thought all religions were sects and all leaders were either conniving manipulators, and all followers blind sheep. Then I debated with some muslims on a forum, and they showed me that this initial idea I had was wrong.
Akhi, faith and misguided people is a serious matter, you shouldn't laugh with it.its sort of how we prejudge those bible thumping Christians do we not? i know i laugh every time the people of jesus christ of the latter day saints come around to spread their religion
Well one doesn't don't know whose minds are closed and whose aren't. I guess the right thing to do would be to preach but if you are tired of endless discussion that doesn't seem to be going anywhere, just end the discussion with something like, "I will pray for your guidance but i can't discuss this with you anymore as it doesn't seem to be getting anywhere."
Allah tells us about the King Nimrod in the Quraan.
Have you not looked at him who disputed with Ibrahim (Abraham) about his Lord (Allah), because Allah had given him the kingdom? When Ibrahim (Abraham) said (to him): "My Lord (Allah) is He Who gives life and causes death." He said, "I give life and cause death." Ibrahim (Abraham) said, "Verily! Allah causes the sun to rise from the east; then cause it you to rise from the west." So the disbeliever was utterly defeated. And Allah guides not the people, who are Zalimun (wrong-doers, etc.). (Surah Al-Baqarah, verse 258).
As you can see in the verse, when Nimrod said that he also gives life and death, Prophet Ibrahim A.S didn't waste his time trying to show Nimrod that he was wrong and that Allah was the sole giver of life and death. Instead Prophet Ibrahim A.S said that Allah makes the sun rise from the east and Nimrod should bring it out from the west. This statement left Nimrod dumbfounded.
Additionally Allah sent Prophet Moses to pharoah although he claimed that he knew no god for his people except for himself.
Fir'aun (Pharaoh) said: "O chiefs! I know not that you have an ilah (a god) other than me, so kindle for me (a fire), O Haman, to bake (bricks out of) clay, and set up for me a Sarhan (a lofty tower, or palace, etc.) in order that I may look at (or look for) the Ilah (God) of Musa (Moses); and verily, I think that he [Musa (Moses)] is one of the liars." (Surah Al-Qasas verse 38).
Not sure if pharoah was an athiest but this verse seems to indicate that Pharoah didn't believe in god at all. Also Allah knew that pharoah would never accept the truth, still He had Prophet Moses (A.S) preach to him and show him 9 or so signs. So I guess that means we should preach without worrying whether anyone accepts and whether their torment will increase by it.
If one person converts due to our attempts, that is a great thing, even if a thousand others didn't accept.
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