Salafi , whats all the fuss about

[eyes_of_mine]

Salam alykum
I recently had the errrm hmmm, different experience of dealing with some salafi fans, they totally confused me, I have no clue what they are REALLY on about or why they are so strict and probolamtic to others inc muslims.
what is all the fuss about salafis, fill me in plzzz !
They gave me loads of sites and frankly I dont get a good feeling from them.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Sister eyes_of_mine ,
The 'salaf' refers to the 3 early generations of Muslims including those who learnt directly from the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. Logically, they would have understand the message best and have been free from the innovations that later came amongst subsequent generations. 'Salafi' is someone who follows the way of the early Muslims, and in reality it is what we all are trying to do. As the Prophet saws said when asked about which group amongst Muslims would be following the truth, he replied, "[Those who follow] what I and my companions are upon." He also said that the best of mankind was his generation, the generation to come after them, and the generation to come after them. (i.e. the first three generations).

There are lots of misconceptions and there are people who misuse certain labels, so these terms can cause some confusion.

I like to keep the whole business simple and say that we follow Islam as it was revealed by Allah swt in the Qur'an, as it was explained by the Prophet saws in the Sunnah, and as it was understood by his companions and early generations of Muslims. If you agree with this simple statement then you're fine.

Some people try to differentiate between Ahlus-Sunnah (those who follow the Sunnah (way) of the Prophet Muhammad) and Salafis (those who follow the companions of the Prophet Muhammad), but in reality the two are equivalent.

I hope my response helps and if you have any fiurther questions please do not hesitate to ask. For more information, see the articles available here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/forumdisplay.php?f=36

[IbnKhaled]

'Salafi' is someone who follows the way of the early Muslims, and in reality it is what we all are trying to do.

I'd personally amend this to say it is someone who claims to follow the way of the early Muslims explicitly (as opposed to implicitly, as the second part of the above sentence alludes to).

As to whether they do follow the way of the salaf, Allahu alim.

There are lots of different groups that claim to this explicitly and tend to be stuck in the common label of salafi by other groups/individuals. In this way it becomes an ascription rather than a description.

Some of these groups are relaxed and open and welcoming, others are harsh and extremely unforgiving.

All this confusion in the end come sback to authority and our difficulty in knowing exactly who to trust when it comes to religion (the results are quite stark..).

I'd say try to find qualified scholars (ijazahs are generally a good indicator) with whom you are comfortable and feel trust toward. I spoke with those who others labelled salafi (and indeed, those who labelled themselves salafi and in some instances even wahabbi) and found I didn't agree with their method nor felt comfortable with their approach. I sat with many others and found an approach that really made sense to me and scholars I felt great trust toward to help me out (Maliki methodology).

Read and learn with an open mind and find those you feel empathy to

G'luck.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Ibn Khaled,
I don't deny that there may be many who claim to follow the salaf yet are actually far from it in their harsh manners and various beliefs. But this does not taint the path of the salaf anymore than the actions of a few extremists tainting Islam. Islam, the Sunnah, and the Salaf will remain pure in spite of the impurity of those who may ascribe themselves to it.

As for who to trust when it comes to knowledge of the religion, the person should look for sincerity and honesty as well as qualified training in their scholars. And it all comes back to checking everything to make certain it is in accordance with the Qur'an and Sunnah. Indeed we should read and learn with an open mind.

As for the so-called 'wahhabis' the following is a good link:
http://www.islamicboard.com/showthread.php?t=1841

[Genius]

Salafi's or as they are also known wahhabi's have a reputation of making takfeer on other groups, mainly shia and sufi, but just about anybody else. Like any other sect you get good ones and bad ones.

[IbnKhaled]

Salam Ansar,

I don't deny that there may be many who claim to follow the salaf yet are actually far from it in their harsh manners and various beliefs. But this does not taint the path of the salaf anymore than the actions of a few extremists tainting Islam. Islam, the Sunnah, and the Salaf will remain pure in spite of the impurity of those who may ascribe themselves to it.

Of course. I was simply pointing out that this claim is a general and primary identifier of those that either label themselves as salafi or are labelled as salafi.

{pseudo-side-ramble here}
I suppose the implicit call to the layperson to judge according to the Qu'ran and Sunnah is another hallmark of these myriad groups (I mean no offense by this). I personally find this strange as the general approach advocated to this (a hadith-sunnah equivalence similar to that of the Hanbali methodology in most cases) ignores differentials in methodology that different proofs employ - one cannot for example judge a proof according to the Maliki methodology by checking the consistency and strength of the evidence according to the Hanafi methodology. However, once you start getting into usul al fiqh and comparative principles of jurisprudence, you are going above the lay level - I would suggest it takes quite a while for one to be at a level wherein one can say "I believe I am right and you are wrong with no possibility of me being wrong and you being right" with respect to classical proofs. It's quite easy for a lay person to be blinded by "daleel" too, as they will not have access to the source books which may contain contradicting evidence as they are, by definition, lay.
{/end of pseudo-side ramble}

With respect to the Wahabi myth, I personally disagree with some of the material on that site as it somewhat misses the point. However, I don't believe it is constructive to call people by names they do not want to be labelled (although I know some who proudly state they are wahabbi) - I recognise that this labelling does occur however.

In any case, as I've said, there is awide variety of groups who all believe slightly different things - from those who indicate that there's is the only correct athar and they are the saved sect, to those who take from all methodologies having actually studied them and accept a wide range of difference of opinion as a result. I would tend toward the more polite and accepting groups as I don't believe the path of the righteous is so narrow.

[Mohsin]

Down in cardiff Salafi's are not known as anyone extreme. It's just the name given to the people who don't follow any of the four madhabs and instead look directly at the sunnah instead of taking an opinion of one of the 4 great imams (Actually i learnt the other day there are actually more than 4 imams that have their own "Mudhabs" but only 4 are popular and well known)
Hope i aint offended anyone

[Taalib-e-'Ilm]

Sister eyes_of_mine ,
The 'salaf' refers to the 3 early generations of Muslims including those who learnt directly from the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. Logically, they would have understand the message best and have been free from the innovations that later came amongst subsequent generations.

U tryin to say that some sects in islam are involved in Bid'ah if so which onez and what are they... i have a feeling ur tryin to pinpoint at one particular sect!!!!:cool2:

[DaNgErOuS MiNdS]

where does brelwi, tableeki etc fall into all of this???

[modez]

r wahhabis and salafi the same??

[IbnKhaled]

Down in cardiff Salafi's are not known as anyone extreme. It's just the name given to the people who don't follow any of the four madhabs and instead look directly at the sunnah instead of taking an opinion of one of the 4 great imams (Actually i learnt the other day there are actually more than 4 imams that have their own "Mudhabs" but only 4 are popular and well known)
Hope i aint offended anyone

Moss,

There used to be lots of different madhabs as these were effectively the methodology of the particular Imam who was qualified to do ijtihad (primary reasoning from the source texts). For example, the Prophet (pbuh) had his own madhab, which had the fortunate component of wahy (revelation) and the fact he was an actualisation of the Shariah - unfortunately, we, as non-prophets, don't have that, so we make the best approximatin we can to the Truth.

Now, what happened after Imam Shafi wrote his Risala was that the need to have a formalised and objective methodology was recognised by these great scholars (the four imams and others). Their students accepted their methodologies and used them in their own ijtihad, correcting the fatwa where a certain evidence was not considered or where the proof was not cohesive or valid with respect to the methodology of their teachers. Thus the methodology persisted, but the positions of the madhab on a certain topic changed as more and more refinement and cross checking occured.

The four major madhabs we have now are a result of this cross checking (as the four imams were only human) and in none of them are the positions of the Imam who formulated the methodology considered representative of the most reliable position in the school (for example, ibn Juzayy al Kalbi or ibn Rushd are the references for the most reliable position in the Maliki schools, Imam Nawawi and Imam Rafi for the Shafi school). Each methodology has a varying degree of flex to take into account the current situation - makese sense as 1000 year old fatwas may not always be relevant (!).

The reasons for the other madhabs not getting this support and cross-checking/analysis is quite interesting, varying from politics to inherent flaws in the methodology - one interesting case was the mass switch from the Dhahiri (extremely literalist) madhab to the Maliki madhab in the 8th century AH.

where does brelwi, tableeki etc fall into all of this???

The Barelwis are those who follow the scholars who took from Imam Ahmad Rida Khan from India. Just as (most) people who are called salafis do not call themselves thus, those who are labelled as barelwi also do not use that term for themselves. They and "salafis" *really* don't tend to get along.

Tableeghi Jamaat is a group founded also on the Indian subcontinent for the purpose of creating community feeling amongst muslims (via retreats etc) and spreading the message of Islam to non-practising muslims and non-muslims.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Salafi's or as they are also known wahhabi's have a reputation of making takfeer on other groups, mainly shia and sufi, but just about anybody else. Like any other sect you get good ones and bad ones.

While it is true that some people make takfeer on others unjustly, this has nothing to do with Salafiyyah of Shaykh Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab. In fact, Shaykh Ibn Abdul Wahhab stated:

As for ruling someone to be a kafir, then I consider a kafir to be the person who knows the religion of the Prophet saws, then, after such knowledge, curses it, and prevents people from following it, and shows enmity to whoever follows it. So this is the one whom I consider to be a kafir. And the majority of this nation - by Allah's blessings - are not like this! (Al-Durrar Al-Saniyyah [1/73])

I suppose the implicit call to the layperson to judge according to the Qu'ran and Sunnah is another hallmark of these myriad groups (I mean no offense by this). I personally find this strange as the general approach advocated to this (a hadith-sunnah equivalence similar to that of the Hanbali methodology in most cases) ignores differentials in methodology that different proofs employ - one cannot for example judge a proof according to the Maliki methodology by checking the consistency and strength of the evidence according to the Hanafi methodology. However, once you start getting into usul al fiqh and comparative principles of jurisprudence, you are going above the lay level - I would suggest it takes quite a while for one to be at a level wherein one can say "I believe I am right and you are wrong with no possibility of me being wrong and you being right" with respect to classical proofs. It's quite easy for a lay person to be blinded by "daleel" too, as they will not have access to the source books which may contain contradicting evidence as they are, by definition, lay.

I don't think anyone asks laymen to study the proofs themselves in order to arrive at a ruling. For the laymen, their madhab is that of their local imaam or whoever they have access to. They follow whatever Islamic information that is available to them. For the student of knowledge and the Muslim scholar, they begin to investigate the varying opinions and take a closer look at comparative fiqh. But ultimately, it is the Mujtahid who is qualified to perform a full investigation of the evidences in order to arrive at the correct judgement.

As for the saved group, I believe that if we all agree on the simple statement I mentioned earlier, which I'm sure we do, then we're all in the same boat.

Down in cardiff Salafi's are not known as anyone extreme. It's just the name given to the people who don't follow any of the four madhabs and instead look directly at the sunnah instead of taking an opinion of one of the 4 great imams (Actually i learnt the other day there are actually more than 4 imams that have their own "Mudhabs" but only 4 are popular and well known)p

While some salafis do not follow a madhab, this is not true for all of them. Shaykh Bin Baaz, and many other scholars like him who called themselves Salafis, followed the Hanbali madhab.

U tryin to say that some sects in islam are involved in Bid'ah if so which onez and what are they... i have a feeling ur tryin to pinpoint at one particular sect!

I'm not trying to pinpoint anyone. As for Bida'ah, as long as we worship Allah swt in the manner that the Prophet saws did (which is the best manner), then we do not need to worry about Bida'ah.

r wahhabis and salafi the same??

'Salafi' is the name given to someone who follows the path of the early Muslims. 'Wahhabi' is a name invented by the media to label the followers of Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab, but in reality his followers simply consider themselves 'Salafi'. See also:
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=en...QR=12203&dgn=4

[eyes_of_mine]

Salam Alykum ALL
Very interesting, Thanks Answar and others who have replied, what concerns me about Salafi fans is that is quite worrying that they cling to the lable of salafi, its like it makes it sect. yet another one !
why say I am a salafi and go on and on about being Salafi, We are muslims not Salafi's, if you know what I mean.

I find this is the problem with people who cling to certain names and aspects of the religion , they paint a VERY confused picture to other muslims, they are quite harsh and unforgiving to thoose who do not cling to this salafi Idea as the base of the religion.

Its like first they try to reel you in on the issue of tawheed, then they try to force you to accept all this salafi business and take thier harsh ways or your weak if you dont accept their ways.

And also another thing they do is , they say there is no politics in Islam , which I find incredibily thick stupid thing to say !
Also they are adament that in the world there are only a few scholors who they listen to, they laugh and poke fun at greats like Ahmed deedat, and many others like him, its rather hatefull and very unislamic.

What is VERY worrying to me, is how theese salafi fans tend to be reverts, and they seem to have this big plan to get everyone in on their Ideas, they talk very convincingly some of them and a its easy to see how they can grab thoose reverts and mold them into thier way of thinking.

Salafi physcho's I call them. and I see that they are going to dis-unite the ummah even more than what it is.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Sister eyes_of_mine,
It seems that when you speak of 'salafis' you have a certain group in mind. Remember, we cannot paint the concept of following the pious Muslims (salafiyyah) according to the misconduct of a few. That would be parallel to the way many westerners label Islam according to the violent actions of a few individuals.

As for the labels, I agree we are all Muslims. But we need to clarify in times of confusion what defines a Muslim. We have many extremist Muslims saying, "this is true Islam". We have other people saying "this is true Islam". We have many so-called 'progressive Muslims' saying "this is the true spirit of Islam". The answer is that true Islam is that which was revealed in the Qur'an and preached by the Prophet saws, as it was understood by the early Muslims - their understanding was the correct understanding. So whether you want to call yourself "Sunni Muslim" or "Salafi Muslim" "Ahlul-Hadithi Muslim" or "Orthodox Muslim", the label is not so much as important as what you are actually following. So long as we are all following the Qur'an and the Prophet Muhammad saws according to the understanding of the companions, we are fine inshaa'Allah.

[eyes_of_mine]

[QUOTE=Ansar Al-'Adl;106390]:sl: Sister eyes_of_mine, :)
It seems that when you speak of 'salafis' you have a certain group in mind. Remember, we cannot paint the concept of following the pious Muslims (salafiyyah) according to the misconduct of a few. That would be parallel to the way many westerners label Islam according to the violent actions of a few individuals. 

I am of course going on my personal experience and it was a negative one, and I hope inshallah the ones I met will remain a few, my concern was they painted SUCH a convincing picture if I was of a different standing they could of reeled me in as they have reeled others.
The point is not to say all salafi are bad nutcases, Im sure there are regular decent ones, the point is how EASY it can be to taken in by them due to the convincing way they portray themselves. thus then you will give Islam a bad name.
And there is nothing paralel with that and westerners labeling Islam with terroists ect.

I say there is no paralel because westerners you talk about doing that are kaffurs and they knows next to nothing about the deen.
We as muslims accept the deen and we have a duty to protect other muslims from going into any deviant traps by talking about, exposing and UNDERSTANDING deviant group in Islam who although probally no doubt mean the best but are mislead.

Once you understand how a magic trick is performed it is not magic anymore.
(not sure if that last line will make any sense to ppl but its does to me)

[salehah]

salam !

just few more questions

Remember, we cannot paint the concept of following the pious Muslims (salafiyyah) according to the misconduct of a few.

do I hear pious muslims here??

didn't Allah SWT said

"do not claim piety to your self.."

i didnt mean to post this reply so soon, what i meant was..
even the pious of all, the prophets(PBUT) who Allah SWT himself called pious (and I think only He knows Who really pious is) were known by and called MUSLIMS only!
isn't it true?
plus showing someone the right path is different than forcing people into it and labeling every one who differs as an out sider ..
if it's not making sections then what is it??

and i agree with eyes-of mine ...
jazakAllah!

[Brother_Mujahid]

and i agree with eyes-of mine ...
jazakAllah!

err yah and i agree with Ansar Al-'Adl

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Sister eyes_of_mine,

I am of course going on my personal experience and it was a negative one

I'm glad you admitted it. Now your challenge is to put aside your personal prejudice that has arisen from past negative experiences and take a fresh and objective look at the arguments. If you agree with following the understanding of the companions of the Prophet saws, well then guess what? By definition, you're following salafiyyah too.

Sister Salehah,

do I hear pious muslims here??

didn't Allah SWT said

"do not claim piety to your self.."

Are you referring to the ayat...

53:32 ...So ascribe not purity to yourselves, He knows best who has taqwa.

It would be nice if you provided the references yourself next time, inshaa'Allah.

As for the ayat, the keyword there is YOUR SELF. We are not calling ourselves pious, rather we are struggling to follow the path of the pious early Muslims. And it is not us who labelled them as pious, it is Allah swt and His Messenger.

9:100 And the first forerunners [in faith] among the Muhaajireen and the Ansaar and also those who followed them with good conduct - Allah is pleased with them as they are pleased with Him. He has prepared for them gardens under which rivers flow [Paradise], to dwell therein forever. That is the supreme success.

The Prophet (s.a.w.s) said: "The best of my nation is my generation then those who follow them and then those who follow them." (Sahih Bukhari)

In another hadith, the Prophet saws described the true Muslims as "those who will follow what I am and what my companions are upon today." (at-Tirmidhi)

So it is not a matter of us calling ourselves pious, we are following those whom Allah swt has set out for us as the pious examples to follow after the Prophet saws.

i didnt mean to post this reply so soon, what i meant was..
even the pious of all, the prophets(PBUT) who Allah SWT himself called pious (and I think only He knows Who really pious is) were known by and called MUSLIMS only!
isn't it true?

We are also known as Muslims. So there is no difference here. The problem is you have misunderstood the usage of the word 'salafi' to be a new label - it is not. It simply defines what it means to be a Muslim, i.e. following Islam as it was revealed in the Qur'an, explained by the Prophet saws, and understood by the early muslims.

plus showing someone the right path is different than forcing people into it and labeling every one who differs as an out sider ..
if it's not making sections then what is it??

Where have I forced anyone to accept something and applied labels to people? This is the logical fallacy which we call a strawman.

and i agree with eyes-of mine ...

Congratulations.

[salehah]

Brother Ansar ul Adl!

Do not think i was pointing it to you directly .. ? i couldn't have cause i didn't know what section you are from!

uhmm but i addmit my mistakes.. i should have guessed and yes the refference too..that was surrah najm verse 32..
well last part of verse to be exact!

in case of not calling your self pious ...ok so it's like WE are calling ourselves pious muslims because we follow as WE THINK were the ways of pious muslims!!
my pioint's the same ... it's only Allah's decesion to make whether one is pious or not! only He knows what's in the hearts of the people...

and tell me does Allah's give different names for different muslims ?
(other than munafics i know they are not muslims)
i am asking you as a layman ofcourse .. please don't feel offended!
salam

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Don't worry I'm not offended.

As for your statement regarding pious muslims, again we're not thinking of oursleves as pious. Rather, we desire to be pious muslims so we follow the example of pious muslims before us.

As for the names, we agree that we're Muslims. 'Salafi' is not a new label. It only is a concise statement summarizing what it means to be a Muslim.