Disappointment with God

[truth finder]

This personal story is the product of my own struggle with doubt and questions about my own belief, when I was going through a very difficult time in my life. "Do I have my current belief, just because I blindly believe what I was taught to believe by others or because in the worst case scenario I am brainwashed by the whole religious system just like in former communist countries?" This thought had bothered me for a while. But I did not tell others about my struggle for fear that I would be mocked and rejected by them. I really wanted to find the answer myself and started to read the whole Bible. Of course we were not supposed to question our belief and our scripture. But with courage and curiosity I decided to start my journey of investigation. I read the whole scripture with the mind that I might have been educated to believe what I was told by others or that I might have been brainwashed by the whole religious system. During my own investigation to find the truth, I met my God personally and intimately instead of rejecting him. I found God is very close to me instead of far away.

About twenty years ago I came to the United States for a PhD in theoretical physics. I was an ambitious young student who wanted to make a major breakthrough discovery in physics, earning recognition and awards from physics community and general public. During this period I became a Christian. After finishing the PhD we went to Europe for two years of research and came to the current place about ten years ago. Because I wanted to continue scientific research in academia as a professor, I worked hard to build up more research experience to apply for a faculty position at universities. So far I had five interviews with various universities and five more in industry. In particular job competition in academia is so strong that typically more than one hundred people apply for one opening from all over the world. Since usually three candidates are invited for interview, having an interview in academia and industry alike was a very exciting experience with a lot of expectation. Because of this high expectation, however, the disappointment following after failure is also tremendous, and unfortunately it came to me as reality as many as ten times in a row. On one occasion the chairperson of the search committee talked to me privately that he would be most pleased if I come, but it did not happen. I simply could not accept the reality that I have got none of them! One failure after another has led me into deep disappointment and bitterness toward everything. Furthermore the majority of my friends have already reached their career goals. From the worldly point of view, many of them did not do better than me at school and their research was not better than mine after the PhD. Nothing happened the way I wanted it and the way they should have happened. I could not stand the reality any more.

Why must I struggle here for so many years for nothing? “God, are you really taking care of me? What is wrong with me? Are you angry with me? This world is surely not fair!” Out of desperation I came to the point where I screamed to God, “God, I acknowledge you saved me from eternal condemnation through faith in Jesus Christ, but I do not think you continue to care for me afterwards. It seems as if you were only interested in bringing me into your family, but leaving me behind helpless. God, now you are making a terrible mistake to me. You said in 1 Corinthians 10:13, ‘No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.’ God, it does not apply to me. This trial is certainly beyond what I can bear. I am already crushed. Instead of getting closer to you as a result of this trial, I am getting more sour to you and more distant from you. God, you are miscalculating about me. God, I am really disappointed with you. If you give me a job today at Harvard University, the best university in the world, I may accept it but I will never thank you because of that. The words, thanks and gratitude, have left me for good and now there are no such words in my dictionary. I assure you, God, that these words will never come out of my mouth again until I breathe my last breath!”

Then, to make things even worse, I started having a health problem not long ago. In the past ten months I had to have two surgeries for the first time in my life. Besides these operations, I had to go through various tests to check if the cancer in my stomach has spread to the other parts of the body. I thought people with this kind of disease were living on a different planet, but suddenly found myself stepping one of my feet onto that unknown world. Everything started falling apart in my life. My life seemed to be being finished. I reached the bottom of my life. I literally cried out to God. “God, what is this now? I am still young. I have a young family who totally depend on me. What do you want more from me? Are you determined to destroy me completely, both in and out?” To my surprise and shame I found years of my Christian belief rooted on sand, shaky and unstable ground. Although I went to the church every Sunday and read the Bible regularly, I did not really come close to God to know and meet him personally. At that time my belief was all about a religion trying to keep the rules, rituals and traditions out of duty or out of fear of punishment, not about a loving relationship with the Creator of my very own soul. I had to begin to research the bible to find out what trust really is, and most of all who God really is.

Exodus 14:13-14 is one of the passages I found very encouraging and instructing to help me get out of the pain of self-condemnation, self-pity and self-denial. In the midst of trial I was able to understand and experience what trust is. This passage eventually helped me replace my anger with thanks and my fear with trust, and restore my broken relationship with God. Here is the bible text in Exodus 14:13-14. This is what Moses told the people of Israel terrified in front of the Red sea while watching the mighty Egyptian army chasing after them behind. ‘Do not be afraid. Stand firm and you will see the deliverance the LORD will bring you today. The Egyptians you see today you will never see again. The LORD will fight for you; you need only to be still.’ During the storm I met my personal God for the first time, not the kind of God I speculated in my imagination. Before God, I was able to see what was really at the bottom of my heart: Pride, arrogance, stubbornness, self-righteousness, superiority and other self-centered desires disguised as something decent. In fact I was trying to use God for my own self-actualization. God was my personal Genie. I simply fell on my knees and confessed to God, “You are my Creator and I am your mere creature. Without you I am only a dust floating around in the massive universe without meaning and purpose. Only with you I find the meaning and true identity of my existence.” I am happy my “great” sin was completely forgiven, because on the cross Jesus Christ already paid the penalty on my behalf. Before God, my own problems that once looked very great became much smaller. They were eventually resolved not the way I wanted it originally, but the way that turned out to be the best later. Now all things seem to have returned to what they were before except two things: surgery scars and the heart. Yes, now I have a new heart! The heart of the matter is the matter of the heart.

I believe our God allowed all these trials to me for a purpose, for a reason. I do not think all the disappointment, frustration, bitterness and fear I have gone through were meaningless. As I look back now, I believe God allowed me to go through them in order for my faith to grow to the next level of maturity, which otherwise would not be possible. Job 23:10 says, ‘But he knows the way that I take; when he has tested me, I will come forth as gold.’ Romans 8:28 says, ‘And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.’ Now I thank God even for the cancer I struggled with recently. Because of the disease, I learned to love and trust my God more, learned to be more thankful for everything, learned to have more compassion for other people, learned to resist better the temptation of lust and selfishness. God’s words have an amazing power that turned my anger, disappointment and fear into joy, thanks and freedom. I was transformed from a caterpillar into a butterfly that flies high into the world of the love of God. Thanks! Finally in the middle of the suffering I was able to taste this precious word that once was lost but now was found. Now I have a new heart of joy, thanks and freedom. Now my spiritual walk with God is really the process of correcting my misunderstandings about him one at a time, developing a more intimate and loving relationship with the Creator of the universe and my own soul.

I have reached the current spiritual stage as a result of doubt and questions on my belief. I strongly encourage you to do the same to meet God more intimately. God is not far way, but very close and personal. The infinite God cannot be defined by a few lines of any religious rules and traditions. In fact this is one of the greatest mistakes people make, namely, not seeing God as He really is but seeing God as a few lines of their religious rules and traditions are! The infinite God waits to be explored and known more by His creatures. The infinitely gracious God is not offended by honest questions and doubt of His tiny creatures. According to the Bible, God was not bothered by our honesty, but actually encouraged it to know Him more intimately and personally! This I found out by myself hard in the middle of trial.

[Woodrow]

We all are obligated to question and ask more questions. It is through these questioning periods we come to understand the reality of Allaah(swt). We are not to be blind followers we have to enforce our faith with knowledge that comes from genuine questioning.

We need not fear in our quest to learn reasons for our beliefs. We each our responsibility for our own actions and none of us can place what we believe upon the teachings of others. We can not use the excuse that we were led astray. It is our obligation to question all things and learn.

[truth finder]

We all are obligated to question and ask more questions. It is through these questioning periods we come to understand the reality of Allaah(swt). We are not to be blind followers we have to enforce our faith with knowledge that comes from genuine questioning.

We need not fear in our quest to learn reasons for our beliefs. We each our responsibility for our own actions and none of us can place what we believe upon the teachings of others. We can not use the excuse that we were led astray. It is our obligation to question all things and learn.

I fully agree with you, brother.

[Insaanah]

At that time my belief was all about a religion trying to keep the rules, rituals and traditions out of duty or out of fear of punishment, not about a loving relationship with the Creator of my very own soul.

In Islam we are encouraged to obey Allah, out of Love (amongst other things) for Him:

"Say, (O Muhammad, to mankind): If ye love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." (Qur'an 3:31)

Love for God is not divorced from keeping rules and rituals, on the contrary, it is incorporated in them.

Now my spiritual walk with God is really the process of correcting my misunderstandings about him one at a time

I am glad to hear it.

To correct any misunderstandings about God, one must go back to the very concept of God. I encourage you and invite you to explore the concept of God in Islam. A concept that is simple, logical, makes sense and is easy to understand.

• There is One God, other than Whom there is none worthy of worship.
• He has no associates whatsoever in His Divinity.
• He has no sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, cousins, grandparents or relatives of any kind.
• He does not beget, not is He begotten.
• He is not composed of any number of persons, godheads, essences or anything else.
• He is Eternal, Immortal, indivisible.
• He is free of all need and dependence.
• He is Loving and Forgiving, but also Severe in punishment, yet He is Fair and the Most Just, such is the perfectly balanced nature of Allah.

No trinity, no sons, no 3-in-1s, just One, in the truest sense of the word.

Jesus (peace be upon him) is one of the mightiest messengers of God. We believe in all God's messengers as they were, the noblest of humanity chosen and sent to guide and warn mankind. We neither reject any of them, nor exaggerate the status of any of them to something it wasn't, i.e. divine.

This world is our test. Nobody has taken the test for us. As it would not be allowed in this world for someone to sit your test on your behalf, so such an injustice is not allowed with God, for God is the most Just. Each person is responsible for their sins, and on the Day of Judgement we will either pass or fail. It is this, coupled with God's Mercy, that we hope will enable us to pass. We worship God with a balance of love, hope and fear.

I strongly encourage you to do the same to meet God more intimately.

While this may be new to you, Muslims already meet God intimately, at least five times a day, when in prostration, and when remembering, glorifying, praising, and thanking God even when going about their daily business, be it walking down the street, commuting, when in the kitchen, even praising God for having relieved them when coming out of the bathroom. And those of my Muslim brothers and sisters who are fortunate enough to wake up for Qiyaam al Layl, worshipping God in the last third of the night, forsake their beds for the love of God. However there is much we can all do to become closer still.

Most people who become Muslim, do so after questioning, reasoning, and learning - they come to realise that in Islam they do not need to separate their spiritual selves from their logical selves, because the concepts actually make sense.

Peace.

[M.I.A.]

im glad you posted after you had found happiness and acceptance of your god.. if you were to post your story at an incomplete stage the responses you have been given may have been totally different.

[truth finder]

In Islam we are encouraged to obey Allah, out of Love (amongst other things) for Him:

"Say, (O Muhammad, to mankind): If ye love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." (Qur'an 3:31)

Love for God is not divorced from keeping rules and rituals, on the contrary, it is incorporated in them.



I am glad to hear it.

To correct any misunderstandings about God, one must go back to the very concept of God. I encourage you and invite you to explore the concept of God in Islam. A concept that is simple, logical, makes sense and is easy to understand.

• There is One God, other than Whom there is none worthy of worship.
• He has no associates whatsoever in His Divinity.
• He has no sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, cousins, grandparents or relatives of any kind.
• He does not beget, not is He begotten.
• He is not composed of any number of persons, godheads, essences or anything else.
• He is Eternal, Immortal, indivisible.
• He is free of all need and dependence.
• He is Loving and Forgiving, but also Severe in punishment, yet He is Fair and the Most Just, such is the perfectly balanced nature of Allah.

No trinity, no sons, no 3-in-1s, just One, in the truest sense of the word.

Jesus (peace be upon him) is one of the mightiest messengers of God. We believe in all God's messengers as they were, the noblest of humanity chosen and sent to guide and warn mankind. We neither reject any of them, nor exaggerate the status of any of them to something it wasn't, i.e. divine.

This world is our test. Nobody has taken the test for us. As it would not be allowed in this world for someone to sit your test on your behalf, so such an injustice is not allowed with God, for God is the most Just. Each person is responsible for their sins, and on the Day of Judgement we will either pass or fail. It is this, coupled with God's Mercy, that we hope will enable us to pass. We worship God with a balance of love, hope and fear.


While this may be new to you, Muslims already meet God intimately, at least five times a day, when in prostration, and when remembering, glorifying, praising, and thanking God even when going about their daily business, be it walking down the street, commuting, when in the kitchen, even praising God for having relieved them when coming out of the bathroom. And those of my Muslim brothers and sisters who are fortunate enough to wake up for Qiyaam al Layl, worshipping God in the last third of the night, forsake their beds for the love of God. However there is much we can all do to become closer still.

Most people who become Muslim, do so after questioning, reasoning, and learning - they come to realise that in Islam they do not need to separate their spiritual selves from their logical selves, because the concepts actually make sense.

Peace.

Thanks for your time sharing your comment with me.

First I want to correct your misunderstanding of our faith. We do not worship 3 gods. We worship one God that has been revealed to us in different ways (the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit). We do not exaggerate the status of Jesus, but accept him as he revealed by what he said and more importantly by what he did. Do you not agree that the almighty God could reveal Himself or His presence to human beings in a hundred different ways if He wants? Do you limit God’s ability and power?

You mentioned “logical”, “makes sense”, “common sense” several times. I agree we need to use our common sense when it is most appropriate. By the way, do you know how God created the universe from nothing? You answer is most likely to be NO. Then, why do you believe his creation? Do you know how Jesus was born of a virgin? You answer is most likely to be NO. Then, why do you believe his mysterious birth? There is always something miraculous beyond our understanding, whenever it has to do with God. By definition a miracle is something that we cannot understand with a common sense or logic. Basically you deny all miraculous things done by God, because you cannot understand them with your logic and common sense. As Isaiah admitted, "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts" (Isaiah 55:9), there are many things with God that we cannot even understand by our reasoning. Here our logic or common sense is not a reliable source.

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Peace truthfinder

Thanks for your time sharing your comment with me.

First I want to correct your misunderstanding of our faith. We do not worship 3 gods. We worship one God that has been revealed to us in different ways (the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit). We do not exaggerate the status of Jesus, but accept him as he revealed by what he said and more importantly by what he did. Do you not agree that the almighty God could reveal Himself or His presence to human beings in a hundred different ways if He wants? Do you limit God’s ability and power?

You mentioned “logical”, “makes sense”, “common sense” several times. I agree we need to use our common sense when it is most appropriate. By the way, do you know how God created the universe from nothing? You answer is most likely to be NO. Then, why do you believe his creation? Do you know how Jesus was born of a virgin? You answer is most likely to be NO. Then, why do you believe his mysterious birth? There is always something miraculous beyond our understanding, whenever it has to do with God. By definition a miracle is something that we cannot understand with a common sense or logic. Basically you deny all miraculous things done by God, because you cannot understand them with your logic and common sense. As Isaiah admitted, "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts" (Isaiah 55:9), there are many things with God that we cannot even understand by our reasoning. Here our logic or common sense is not a reliable source.

Jesus(peace be unto him) worships god many times in the bible, now is God worshipping god? Mary (peace be unto her) the mother of Jesus (peace be unto him) worshipped god, is she worshipping her son? You mention "Logical" i dont see any logic in this, as an individual this makes no sense to me. We as muslims know that God can do what he wills, but not of that which does not suit him. If he can guide us humans, create the trees, the sky, the river, the ocean, the brain, the eye (the human body is a miracle) and everything that exists, then he can also control the world without entering it. But as your belief is that God the creator of the heavens and the earth and all that exists within it has to die for our sins? whats the point of heaven and hell? The reason of "Justice" is really nowhere to exist in this case, it seems pointless. If God dies for your sins, then that means you can do what so ever you will in this world and then the concept of "repentance" makes no sense. Logic is out of the Question because there is absolutely no Logic.

The birth of Jesus (May the blessings of God be unto him) was a miracle. I agree we dont need any common sense or logic in miracles otherwise it would not be a "Miracle".

Gods power is Unlimited. By the way would you care to explain how God created the universe out of nothing?

I hope i have not offended you and hope i answered some of your Questions.

Peace

[Insaanah]

Thanks for your time sharing your comment with me.

My pleasure.

Do you limit God’s ability and power?

It is current day Christianity that limits and denigrates God's ability and power.

To suggest that God had to beget a son and then let that son (who is also God, as it is a different way he has revealed himself according to what you are saying) be killed in order to be able to forgive people's sins if they accept that, and to prove His love to the world, that is what limits His power:

• That He was unable forgive people without making a person (who is Himself) die.
• He could not prove His love to the world without making this sacrifice.
• He could not prevent himself from dying, like humans.
• And the injustice of making one person carry the burden of the sins of mankind is a whole separate issue.

We believe that God is All-Powerful to do anything that befits His Glorious and Transcendent Majesty.

Christians often use the argument that God can do anything. God can do anything that befits His Glorious and Transcendent Majesty, and will only do such things as do befit His Majesty. He cannot lie, cannot steal, and even if He dislikes someone, He cannot kick that person out of His All-Encompassing Dominion. He cannot be ignorant of anything that goes on in the world. He cannot die, for He is Eternal, Immortal. He cannot be unjust by burdening all of mankind's sins onto one innocent person. And He cannot beget offspring or perform such other lowly human functions. Because none of these things befit His Glorious and Transcendent Majesty. And Allah Himself has told us this many times in the Qur'an, which is 100% His word. Here is the translation of just a few verses out of many:

"It befitteth not (the Majesty of) Allah that He should take unto Himself a son. Glory be to Him! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is." (Qur'an 19:35)

"They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!"
Assuredly ye utter a disastrous thing
At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,
That they attribute to the Most Merciful a son.
For it is not consonant with the Majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.
There is no one in the heavens and earth but that he comes to the Most Merciful as a servant." (Qur'an 19:88-93)

There is always something miraculous beyond our understanding, whenever it has to do with God.

When it comes to the concept of God, that should be logical and easy to understand, because this is the foundation the faith is based upon. Once that is clear, logical and easy to understand, then you accept everything else in the religion. If the foundation itself doesn't make sense, then what of anything else? Look at the bullet points in my previous post above, as an example. It makes sense, is simple, and easy to understand for anyone.

Why would God give you a concept you don't understand, can't explain, doesn't make sense, and then tell you that your salvation depends on believing that? A belief that you have to resort to eggs, water and rocks etc to try to explain?

If we took a child with no prior knowledge of either religion right now and explained the bullet points in my previous post above, or explained to him that there is one God revealed in three different ways (according to you), one of those ways is human (but also god) and had to be killed by humans so God could forgive mankind's sins and prove his love to the world, what will make more sense? What is more God-like to the child? Surely the child will think (amongst other things), "A God that dies? What kind of a god is that, doesn't sound very God like if he dies like humans."

The concept of God in Islam makes sense. It follows that if that does, then you accept everything else.

We do not deny miracles, we are talking about the very concept of God. And that is the beauty of Islam. Let's take a non-religious person, who does not believe in miracles, who sees the simplicity and logic of the Islamic concept of God, and then believes it. He doesn't need to believe in miracles to understand the concept of God. Once he understands the concept of God however, then he also comes to believe that God can make miracles happen.

That is why I said that as far as the foundation of our faith goes, we do not need to separate our spiritual selves from our logical selves, for both agree harmoniously. All praise be to Allah.

there are many things with God that we cannot even understand by our reasoning. Here our logic or common sense is not a reliable source.

True. However, as I said, the main foundation the faith is built upon, the concept of God, must make sense, and in Islam, it does. Our reliable source is the Qur'an, which is 100% the word of God. There are no human authors, and no versions, and it is fully preserved.

Peace.

[Ramadhan]

First I want to correct your misunderstanding of our faith. We do not worship 3 gods

You are one of extremely few christians who do not worship 3 gods. Majority christians worship 3 gods.

Christians I know normally pray to the father, and often to the son, but very rarely to the holy spirit.

It seems holy spirit is the lesser god.

[Ramadhan]

By the way, do you know how God created the universe from nothing? You answer is most likely to be NO.

huh?

Even a 5 yo muslim child would know that God created the universe from nothing.

Do christians know that according to bible, the universe is created in exactly 6 DAYS EARTH, and then God had to rest after that? (he was tired? na'udzubillah)

read your own bible with open mind, mister, and then read the Qur'an with the same open mind, and see the difference.

Then, why do you believe his creation?

What kind of non-sensical rambling is this?
are you sure you are writing for the right forum?

Do you know how Jesus was born of a virgin? You answer is most likely to be NO.

Are you kidding me?

Go back, read the qur'an with good translation and preferably with tafseer as well, and then come back here.


And mention, [O Muhammad], in the Book [the story of] Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place toward the east.

She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our Ruh [angel Jibrael (Gabriel)], and he appeared before her in the form of a man in all respects.

She said: "Verily! I seek refuge with the Most Beneficent (Allah) from you, if you do fear Allah."

(The angel) said: "I am only a Messenger from your Lord, (to announce) to you the gift of a righteous son."

She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"

He said, "Thus [it will be]; your Lord says, 'It is easy for Me, and We will make him a sign to the people and a mercy from Us. And it is a matter [already] decreed.' "

So she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a remote place.

And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: She cried (in her anguish): "Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!"

But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): "Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee;

"And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: It will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee.

"So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man, say, 'I have vowed a fast to (Allah) Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into not talk with any human being'"

At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!

"O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"

But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?"

"He ['Iesa (Jesus)] said: Verily! I am a slave of Allah, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet;"

"And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;

"(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;

"So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!

Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.

It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

[Jesus said], "And indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path."

But the sects differ among themselves: and woe to the unbelievers because of the (coming) Judgment of a Momentous Day!


(QS. Maryam: 16-37)

[Amat Allah]

May Allah make you recover asap my respected brother truth finder and all sick people around the world and May Allah lead your way to the path of the endless happiness and give you the best of this life and of the hereafter Ameeeeen

take care of your self ...

leaving you under Allah`s sight...

[IAmZamzam]

truth finder, you must understand, we are not denying (well, I guess I can't speak for anyone but myself) that Trinitarianism is supposedly monotheistic, but as the old saying goes, you can say with your lips that God is one but also three yet you can't truly believe it deep down inside because it's just words. Let me demonstrate with this old and favorite syllogism of mine:

1. Monotheism is simple and comprehensible.
2. The Trinity doctrine is complex and incomprehensible.
3. Therefore, the Trinity is not monotheistic.

[truth finder]

I thank several readers very much for taking time sharing their views with me. I agree with some of their points, while I disagree with others. In various places readers have asked me several questions about the necessity of the sacrificial death of Jesus for our sins. In response to their questions I try to answer them in this post. The sacrificial death of Jesus may look illogical at first glance, but it is not difficult to understand it if you are familiar with Torah. God does things not arbitrarily, but only in the way he prescribed. Have you ever read Torah, which is part of the Old Testament in the Bible? Have you read Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy, and understood the spiritual implications of them?

The significant portion of Torah was devoted to the animal sacrifice. It was absolutely required before starting a fellowship between God and the people of Israel. The animal sacrifice devised by God reveals the characters of God, both his justice (The consequence of our sins must be always paid) and his love (The consequence of our sins is paid on pure animals instead of us to spare us from the punishment). In other words, complete forgiveness requires not only sincere repentance, but also paying the appropriate consequence for the sin. But God is so holy that even the smallest blemish of impurity would evaporate before Him. “Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished” (Exodus34:7). “For the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23). Therefore, if man is to come to God, his sins must have been justly punished. In order to allow man to come to God, He permitted man to "cover" his sins by sacrificing pure lambs in their place. By laying hands on the animals, the sins of people were symbolically transferred to the animals that must be pure and without defect according to God’s specific instruction. Then the animals were slaughtered and burned completely as the punishment of our sins on our behalf, which eventually allowed man to come to God.

In fact this was a prophetic shadow of things to come, where God would sacrifice the Lamb of God, sinless Jesus Christ, to cleanse away the sin of man, that whosoever would take His sacrifice for their own, would be able to stand in the presence of God. So, God's justice and His love are both fulfilled in the sacrifice. Instead of pouring his wrath and curse of judgement on his children because of our sins, God chose to pour them on Jesus to spare us from the punishment. “He was crushed for our iniquities” (Isaiah 53:5)”. The consequence of sin is death so Christ died on the cross to pay the price on our behalf. The animal sacrifice, which was an absolute requirement before God in the Old Testament time, was not an accident but had a very important prophetic implication for our salvation. The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!” (John 1:29) God’s way revealed in Torah is that complete forgiveness requires not only sincere repentance, but also paying the appropriate consequence for the sin. It may be quite different from what you wish it to be, but that is God’s way. “There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.” (Proverbs 14:12)

This is just my answer in response to the questions of readers. I hope the administrators will not delete it just as they did so in the past.

[M.I.A.]

if jesus peace and blessings be upon him took from peoples sins then they were the sins of those around him and im sure he left you a teaching so you could do the same with your lives.

[IAmZamzam]

Complete forgiveness requires not only sincere repentance, but also paying the appropriate consequence for the sin. It may be quite different from what you wish it to be, but that is God’s way.

If payment is required--at all--it is not forgiveness. Period. Forgiveness is not one person paying another person's debt but the debt being simply erased, by one who does not need anything and has no reason to demand anything except our own repentance. There is no escaping the basic fact of the contradiction in terms in pardoning entailing or containing punishment, whatever Old Testament re-interpretations you may pull out in a vain attempt to justify it. You seem to be under the impression that we've never heard the animal sacrifice defense before. We've heard it presented much less unconvincingly, though always unconvincingly to some high degree. Nor is the other inevitable defense, which I'm sure is next on your itenerary--the vague and circular appeal to "the law"--going to fly. Say that you heard of a judge pardoning a guilty man from his death sentence and, with the very next bang of his gavel, sentencing himself to death in the culprit's stead. You ask what on earth is going on and your friend told you, "That's the law, so it's gotta be like this. They used to do something similar in the old days and this is just the continuation and consummation of it." What would your reaction be? To think that the story about the judge probably isn't true, especially given what you believe about the judge's wisdom and moral character? To think that there is something seriously wrong with the law and tradition being spoken of, and therefore that if someone told you that a person of the judge’s wisdom and character wrote that law himself then they were obviously wrong? Or would you just shrug and go, “Oh, well, if it’s the law then….”

[truth finder]

If payment is required--at all--it is not forgiveness. Period. Forgiveness is not one person paying another person's debt but the debt being simply erased, by one who does not need anything and has no reason to demand anything except our own repentance. There is no escaping the basic fact of the contradiction in terms in pardoning entailing or containing punishment, whatever Old Testament re-interpretations you may pull out in a vain attempt to justify it. You seem to be under the impression that we've never heard the animal sacrifice defense before. We've heard it presented much less unconvincingly, though always unconvincingly to some high degree. Nor is the other inevitable defense, which I'm sure is next on your itenerary--the vague and circular appeal to "the law"--going to fly. Say that you heard of a judge pardoning a guilty man from his death sentence and, with the very next bang of his gavel, sentencing himself to death in the culprit's stead. You ask what on earth is going on and your friend told you, "That's the law, so it's gotta be like this. They used to do something similar in the old days and this is just the continuation and consummation of it." What would your reaction be? To think that the story about the judge probably isn't true, especially given what you believe about the judge's wisdom and moral character? To think that there is something seriously wrong with the law and tradition being spoken of, and therefore that if someone told you that a person of the judge’s wisdom and character wrote that law himself then they were obviously wrong? Or would you just shrug and go, “Oh, well, if it’s the law then….”

Thanks for your thoughtful comment. I think it is not totally unreasonable.

If a man killed several people brutally and was caught later, should the judge release him simply because of his sincere repentance? Then where is the justice and righteousness of the nation? What about the pain of victim's families? If a man stole a large amount of money from the national bank causing a catastrophe on the economy and was caught later, should the judge let him go simply due to his sincere repentance? What about the pain of many people? Where is the justice and righteousness of the society? Please do not think lightly our sins and rebellions against God, which are not less severe than the above examples to the eyes of God. The justice and righteousness of God requires the appropriate consequence of our sins must be paid in addition to sincere repentance. Your argument may be "logical" if you regard your sins and rebellions against God very lightly.

If you consider Torah as garbage, you do not need to bother yourself with God's way or God's law. We Christians believe that God had revealed his attributes, his way and his law as he interacted with the people of Israel. In fact God chose Israel as an object lesson for the whole world in order to show how sinful we (represented by Israel) are and reveal his characters while dealing with sinful human beings.

[IAmZamzam]

I am not regarding sin lightly: you are regarding grace lightly. That's the main problem with Christianity: it has to compromise the idea by tempering it with its mutually exclusive opposite. You can't allow yourself to accept the idea that God is beyond all needs, all parsity, and all obligations, and therefore has no incentive to appease the wrongly vengeful emotions of a wronged party or follow rules established by societies. And I don't appreciate your putting words in mouth either: I never said anything about the Torah being garbage. Already, so early in a debate, you are lapsing into the defense mechanism of attacking straw men. I really should (and perhaps do) admire the way you trot out the usual evasions and inevitable defenses much faster than most people in your situation do. Perhaps this will be over with sooner than I think.

The judge doesn't have any way of knowing for certain whether someone's repentance is sincere; God does. If the judge did too then it would probably be best for him to accept a sincere one, yes, very much so.

[Muhaba]

trinity is absolutely not monotheistic. there is no way three can equal one. ask any person who knows a bit of math and they will tell you.

(BTW this post is just one-third of a post and three of my posts will be equal to one post.)

[Muhaba]

brother truthfinder, i'm glad God helped you find him. misfortunes are blessings in disguise. i hope you will find the truth some more and realize that God is one and not three.

[Muhaba]

i'm also glad that you survived cancer. as they say, all's well that ends well!