Welcome I'm sure a member can help you out
I am very interested in Islam and I have been reading a lot about Islam lately and I know that Muslims do not believe that Jesus was divine.
But in the Bible (John 8-58) Jesus applied God's Holy name to himself.
Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance
Mausi
Welcome I'm sure a member can help you out
Hi Bro, We as Muslims believe in the Bible as a book from God. But we as well believe that over time, people of the church faked and altered many texts of it. However, I don't think this verse indicates that Jesus is divine or God or son of God.
Asalaamu Alaikum (peace be with you),
That is a translation error. I believe this is probably the best link to give you in regards to that question - http://www.answering-christianity.com/iam.htm (scroll down to number 2)
Bottom line is, Jesus(pbuh) never, by his own mouth get quoted as calling himself God nor said he was the Son of God.
The beautiful Quran defends Jesus(pbuh) and attests to this;
"And when God said, “O Jesus son of Mary, didst thou say unto men, ‘Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God’?” he said, “To thee be glory! It is not mine to say what I have no right to. If I indeed said it, Thou knowest it, knowing what is within my soul, and I know not what is within Thy soul; Thou knowest the things unseen.“" [Quran 5:116]
Source - http://www.xyapx.com/ziggyzag/jesusinbibleandkoran.php
In Islam we believe that Jesus was a human being and a messenger. Her are some verses from Quran that will help you understand it.
Question: What does the Qur'an say about Jesus?
Answer: In the Qur'an, there are many stories about the life and teachings of Jesus Christ (called 'Isa in Arabic). The Qur'an recalls his miraculous birth, his teachings, the miracles he performed by God's permission, and his life as a respected prophet of God. The Qur'an also repeatedly reminds that Jesus was a human prophet sent by God, not part of God Himself. Below are some direct quotations from the Qur'an regarding his life and teachings of Jesus.
He Was Righteous
"Behold! the angels said, 'Oh Mary! God gives you glad tidings of a Word from Him. His name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter, and in (the company of) those nearest to God. He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. He shall be (in the company) of the righteous... And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel'" (3:45-48).
He Was a Prophet
"Christ, the son of Mary, was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how God makes His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!" (5:75).
"He [Jesus] said: 'I am indeed a servant of God. He has given me revelation and made me a prophet; He has made me blessed wheresoever I be; and He has enjoined on me prayer and charity as long as I live. He has made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable. So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!' Such was Jesus the son of Mary. It is a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is" (19:30-35).
He Was a Humble Servant of God
"And behold! God will say [i.e. on the Day of Judgment]: 'Oh Jesus, the son of Mary! Did you say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God?' He will say: 'Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would indeed have known it. You know what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Yours. For You know in full all that is hidden. Never did I say to them anything except what You commanded me to say: 'Worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I lived among them. When You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a witness to all things'" (5:116-117).
His Teachings
"When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: 'Now I have come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which you dispute. Therefore, fear God and obey me. God, He is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him -- this is a Straight Way.' But sects from among themselves fell into disagreement. So woe to the wrongdoers, from the penalty of a Grievous Day!" (43:63-65)
sorry, i think you need to elaborate...your question isnt clear. whats the question exactly?
Thanks for your reply. Unless this is a translation error it sounds to me that JESUS is applying God's Holy name " I AM " to himself. " Before ABRAHAM was I AM " And if Jesus existed before ABRAHAM that would make him divine don't You think ?
That is what I am confused about.
Thanks for all the info.
Thanks for all the info.
Very helpful Thanks.
Last edited by Tilmeez; 12-30-2010 at 07:03 AM.
We do not believe that the Bible is a book from God. The Koran says that the Davidic psalms and the Torah originally were from God but it doesn't say anything about any other books of the Bible, only an unnamed non-biblical Gospel and a scripture written by Abraham (P). And it also says that the Jewish scriptures were corrupted. I explain all about this in my site's FAQ. What the book of John says is of no concern to us. All the same, Jesus's (P) purported way of talking in it is extremely mystical and nonliteral, and not always entirely clear.
Wow...thanks.format_quote Originally Posted by Perseveranze
Hi Mausi.format_quote Originally Posted by mausi
In John 8:58 many Bible translations render Jesus' words as "before Abraham was I am" (Greek: "ego eimi"). Because the KJV reads "I AM" as a name for God at Exodus 3:14 is is often claimed that Jesus is claiming to be God at John 8:58.
However, this argument is flawed.
The Greek expression in the Septuagint at Exodus 3:14 for "I AM" is "Ho On", not "ego eimi". So Jesus was not quoting this verse. Similarly, translations of John 8:58 into Hebrew use a different Hebrew expression for "I am" compared to that found in the Hebrew of Exodus 3:14.
Besides, Jesus' words at John 8:58 would be rendered more grammatically correct in English as: "before Abraham was I have been." It is true that "ego eimi" is in the present tense in Greek but sometimes the Koine Greek of the NT uses the present tense to denote an action that began in the past and continues up to the moment of speaking.
A similar case is John 14:9 which the NIV renders as: "Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been (Greek "[ego] eimi") among you such a long time?"
So in conclusion, there is no basis for the claim that in John 8:58 Jesus was claiming to be God or was applying God's holy name to himself.
Actually Jesus does get quoted as calling himself the Son of God at John 10:36.format_quote Originally Posted by Perseveranze
This reads: "Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?" (NIV)
Psalm 2:7, a Psalm of David, speaks of God as having a son. Do you include that saying as being from God?format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
I don't believe that it does. The Qur'an refers to scriptures being given distorted meanings but not to corruption of the written text itself.format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
And it speaks of others as sons as well , whats your point ?format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
a) "Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, whichwas the son of Adam, which was the SON OF GOD." LUKE 3:38
(b) "That the SONS OF GOD saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took wives of all which they chose.
". . . when the SONS OF GOD came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty
men which were of old, men of renown." GENESIS 6:2 and 4
(c) ". . . Thus saith the Lord, Israel is MY SON even my FIRSTBORN." EXODUS 4:22
(d) ". . . and Ephraim is my FIRSTBORN." JEREMIAH 31:9
(e) "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the SONS OF GOD." ROMANS 8:14
Indeed it does. So if God has a son then it doesn't mean that that God has to be a trinity does it? Why then should it cause a problem to say that God has a son?format_quote Originally Posted by Airforce
Dear mausi!
Allah has told Muslims to believe in the revealed books but over the years the people have changed it.
Same reason as it does to say that God cried, had to use the bathroom, and died a humiliating, painful death. Begetting offspring, and having relatives, be they sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, cousins, or grandparents, is on exactly the same level as the aforementioned - far removed from the Majesty of God, Glorified and Exalted be He above all that is falsely attributed to Him.format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
"Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, "This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby." (Qur'an 2:79)format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Peace.
Last edited by Insaanah; 12-30-2010 at 09:29 PM.
Salaam/Peace
format_quote Originally Posted by mausi
Is Jesus God? Ahmed Deedat vs Anis Sorrosh
The Bible presents Jeremiah as being a prophet before he was conceived in his mother’s womb; “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations. (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 1:5)”
Yet no one says that his pre-human existence qualifies him for deity.
In Exodus chapter 3, God allegedly says: “I am what I am.” Long before the time of Jesus, there existed a Greek translation of the Old Testament called the Septuagint.
The key word, “I am,” in Exodus which is used by Christians to prove the deity of Jesus is translated as “HO ON.” However, when Jesus uses the word in John 8:58 the Greek of the “I am,” is EGO EIMI. If Jesus wanted to tell the Jews that he was claiming to be God he should have at least remained consistent in the use of words or the whole point is lost.
http://truereligiondebate.wordpress....s-anis-sorrosh
But Airforce's post #13 showed that "son" can be understood in a non-literal sense, not necessarily as we understand the process of procreation in humans. A father is a life-giver and God gives life to angels and humans with whom, because of their spiritual qualities, he can have a relationship akin to that of a father with a son or daughter.format_quote Originally Posted by Insaanah
Asalaamu Alaikum(peace be with you),format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
John 8:37-40
37 I know you are Abraham's descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father. [c]" 39 "Abraham is our father," they answered. If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would [d] do what Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things.
Jesus is accusing them of killing him simply because they do not like or want to accept his teachings. Jesus clearly stated to them that he is a MAN who was telling them the truth that he heard from GOD. NOT THAT HE IS GOD!!!!!!!!
The Jews were so desperate to convict Jesus of death. They tried everything...
Why doesn't Jesus(pbuh) say "son of God who has told you the truth that I heard from God"?
Mark 14:55-63
55 The chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for evidence against Jesus so that they could put him to death, but they did not find any. 56 Many testified falsely against him, but their statements did not agree. 57 Then some stood up and gave this false testimony against him: 58 "We heard him say, 'I will destroy this temple made with human hands and in three days will build another, not made with hands.' " 59 Yet even then their testimony did not agree. 60 Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" 61 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?" 62 "I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." 63 The high priest tore his clothes. "Why do we need any more witnesses?" he asked. 64 "You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?"
You can see that they were so desperate that they had to get false witnesses to testify against Jesus. But that didn't even work. Then when Jesus said that he is God's son they went crazy and accused him of blasphemy out of sheer desperation to have him killed. But I already quoted Jesus in John 10:31-39 in how he defends himself against this accusation and how he shows the misunderstanding that the Jews had of scripture.
You know it was normal in those days to call yourself "Son Of God"?
"To the Israelites and the Jews being called the son of God, and calling God your Father was something normal. This did not denote any divine attribute of the person, nor did it literally mean that God had a literal son, and that God was a literal Father. It was all metaphorical language, by son of God they were essentially referring to themselves as servants of God."
If Jesus(pbuh) said "begotten son of God" which is the literal meaning of a "Father and Son", then maybe you'd have an arguement. The Quran attacks the people who "called Jesus(pbuh) the BEGOTTEN son of God", not Jesus(pbuh) who merely as others would've said in that time, "Son Of God".
Also, you can't just ignore stuff like this -
"Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. (The Noble Quran, 112:1-4)""Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 6:4)""The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. (From the NIV Bible, Mark 12:29)"If Jesus was GOD, then why Mark 15:34 says "And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
If Jesus was GOD, then did Paul say in 1 Corinthians 8:6 "yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live."
If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 20:17 Jesus said "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "
If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 8:28 Jesus said "I do nothing of myself"? Can't GOD do anything he wills?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in Luke 23:46 Jesus said "Father (GOD), into thy hands I commend my spirit"?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in Mark 10:18 Jesus said “And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”?
Also in Luke 18:19 Jesus said only GOD Almighty is Good: ""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone."
Sources
http://www.answering-christianity.com/questions.htm
http://muslim-responses.com/Isa_the_Messiah/Isa_the_Messiah_
http://www.answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/jews_jesus_blasphemy.htm
To each their own in their belief, but for me it's clear.
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
What other meaning is there? Aside from the gross attribute of human needs and traits to God except also to join with him in power a weak and ineffectual God who couldn't pick apostles to carry out his commandments upon his death and couldn't ward off a couple of provincial oafs who wanted to crucify him? In essence a mini god born to a god both of them one according to mainstream Christianity, who left the world behind to annunciate himself to a 12 year old, impregnate her with himself becomes his own grandfather, leave the entire world behind in a period where he suckles, and uses places to relieve himself, abrogate his commandments, choose apostles of them the 'rock' forsook him three times before he self-immolated. He himself prayed to himself or according to you to a God who basically didn't hear his prayer and all of this for what? So christians can sin carte Blanche because God died eating their sins? I am sorry but no branch of Christianity Trinitarian or uniterian that can make up for this mess!
all the best
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