Thread moved from another section. Please offer the brother any advice of value to help him.
I would like to introduce myself. My name is Ikram Hussain and i am 24 years old. I am a Sunni and my parents are of Pakistani descent from an area near to Rawalpindi. It has been about a year since my Iman has become a lot stronger and I thank Allah (SWT) for the strength he gives me to make my Iman even clearer. However, there are always going to be situations where you will have to learn Islam to understand it better. Hence why i am writing to you.
I have been married for 7 years now to my wife who is my cousin (her mother is my mothers sister and her father is my fathers brother. My mother and father are also cousins). She is five years older than me. We have two wonderful boys (4.5 and 3). The thing is, we have never really got on.
It all started on 20th March 2000 when my parents told me that i would be marrying in pakistan. I was 15! I did not want to marry but i was told to do it or leave (in nice words). My mother, father, uncle and aunty (not her parents, but her uncle and aunty also) all pressured me into this. Alas, on 27 July 2001 i went to pakistan and had my nuptual agreement. The situation wasnt nice but i gave in. With no sense of direction and no one to help.
The Nikah, as i understand, was done but i did notice my date of birth being changed to make me look 18 instead of 17. I did not sleep with her there and merely came back in the hope, and thought, that the worst was over and i would never have to think of it again. I was hidden from the truth of knowing what a marriage was and had nothing to be with her as i was still at school.
I have known another woman who is also muslim for 6 years and we both collectively have agreed that marriage is the way forward for us. We have strong feelings for each other and would inshallah like to continue them for the rest of our lifes. This woman is the same age as me and understands me very well. She has also in the past supported me with this marriage and stopped me from killing myself and given me the Iman i have with me today.
My wife came to England after 1.5 years and several dozen fake payslips for me later. Both of our children that have been born were both asked for by my wife. She did not listen to me as i told her i was not willing to have children yet. It got to a point where she cried and begged me for them. I gave in.
Fast forward to 2008 and just 1 month ago i have lost my daughter (at birth). It was expected but came about in the wrong way. This was done by our mistake as i was asleep on the last day of ramadan and stated i was fasting and did not want her to come near me. So she did, when i was asleep. It was stupid for me to break my fast how i did and regret it dearly. I did not want to have another child but my wife did not abort when we first found out (at 3 weeks) as she wanted to prove her point. It supposedly is the easy way to obtain a coucil house!
The situation now that arises is that i want to get married again to this other woman. However, if i just divorce my current wife from english law and keep the nikah, would this be valid as i do not wish to sleep with my current wife and have any responsibility over her. Reason being is because we both know that we are together for the children and the children only. The only reason i ask this is because of the pakistani community and family situations and perceptions dont seem to be right. I know the right thing to do would be to divorce but we have 2 children together and i would like to get out of this hastle free. I do not want this marriage to interfere with my next. I also accept that i will never be able to treat both wives fairly. I am very confused in my next steps in life and am not getting any straight answers from anyone regarding this issue.
I am sorry for the long message, but feel that you should know everything before you can comment fairly. Thank you for your time and patience regarding my issue.
Thread moved from another section. Please offer the brother any advice of value to help him.
salam wa 3lykom
welll if i was u i would divorce her since u cant be fair ... second of all if i was in here place i dont want my husband to be with me for the sake of my kids.. i would want him to divorce me .. i mean this is just the way out.. n i mean always visit ur kids n be with em ... n treat them fair... with the other kids u ll have in the future... n it was a mistake for ur parents to marry u off at that age n to someone u dont really know nor want n i mean actually wasnt readu for marriage . alot of ppl i knw have that same problem but al hamduallah everything is okay now . but wats done is done so all u gotta do is estkhara n then decide actually go n see a imam he ll help u out for sure.. inshallah salamzzz
Talk with your wife about divorce and the rights what she will have if she agrees with it: you will provide her money and the children will remain with her.
I don't know if a marriage or divorce in legal fact only without a Nikah is allowed for a Muslim. You should ask a fatwa.format_quote Originally Posted by TotalControl
I would like to introduce myself. My name is Ikram Hussain and i am 24 years old. I am a Sunni and my parents are of Pakistani descent from an area near to Rawalpindi. It has been about a year since my Iman has become a lot stronger and I thank Allah (SWT) for the strength he gives me to make my Iman even clearer. However, there are always going to be situations where you will have to learn Islam to understand it better. Hence why i am writing to you.
I have been married for 7 years now to my wife who is my cousin (her mother is my mothers sister and her father is my fathers brother. My mother and father are also cousins). She is five years older than me. We have two wonderful boys (4.5 and 3). The thing is, we have never really got on.
It all started on 20th March 2000 when my parents told me that i would be marrying in pakistan. I was 15! I did not want to marry but i was told to do it or leave (in nice words). My mother, father, uncle and aunty (not her parents, but her uncle and aunty also) all pressured me into this. Alas, on 27 July 2001 i went to pakistan and had my nuptual agreement. The situation wasnt nice but i gave in. With no sense of direction and no one to help.
The Nikah, as i understand, was done but i did notice my date of birth being changed to make me look 18 instead of 17. I did not sleep with her there and merely came back in the hope, and thought, that the worst was over and i would never have to think of it again. I was hidden from the truth of knowing what a marriage was and had nothing to be with her as i was still at school.
I have known another woman who is also muslim for 6 years and we both collectively have agreed that marriage is the way forward for us. We have strong feelings for each other and would inshallah like to continue them for the rest of our lifes. This woman is the same age as me and understands me very well. She has also in the past supported me with this marriage and stopped me from killing myself and given me the Iman i have with me today.
My wife came to England after 1.5 years and several dozen fake payslips for me later. Both of our children that have been born were both asked for by my wife. She did not listen to me as i told her i was not willing to have children yet. It got to a point where she cried and begged me for them. I gave in.
Fast forward to 2008 and just 1 month ago i have lost my daughter (at birth). It was expected but came about in the wrong way. This was done by our mistake as i was asleep on the last day of ramadan and stated i was fasting and did not want her to come near me. So she did, when i was asleep. It was stupid for me to break my fast how i did and regret it dearly. I did not want to have another child but my wife did not abort when we first found out (at 3 weeks) as she wanted to prove her point. It supposedly is the easy way to obtain a coucil house!
The situation now that arises is that i want to get married again to this other woman. However, if i just divorce my current wife from english law and keep the nikah, would this be valid as i do not wish to sleep with my current wife and have any responsibility over her. Reason being is because we both know that we are together for the children and the children only. The only reason i ask this is because of the pakistani community and family situations and perceptions dont seem to be right. I know the right thing to do would be to divorce but we have 2 children together and i would like to get out of this hastle free. I do not want this marriage to interfere with my next. I also accept that i will never be able to treat both wives fairly. I am very confused in my next steps in life and am not getting any straight answers from anyone regarding this issue.
I am sorry for the long message, but feel that you should know everything before you can comment fairly. Thank you for your time and patience regarding my issue.
Have you discussed this situation with your wife? Maybe she would prefer to really be divorced, (i mean Talaaq)?
Last edited by Faye; 08-03-2008 at 05:26 AM.
Ikram, May I ask you to do an exercise? Take an uninterrupted hour and answers these questions IN WRITING <-- that's important, otherwise, you can't evaluate.format_quote Originally Posted by TotalControl
The situation now that arises is that i want to get married again to this other woman. However, if i just divorce my current wife from english law and keep the nikah, would this be valid as i do not wish to sleep with my current wife and have any responsibility over her. Reason being is because we both know that we are together for the children and the children only. The only reason i ask this is because of the pakistani community and family situations and perceptions dont seem to be right. I know the right thing to do would be to divorce but we have 2 children together and i would like to get out of this hastle free. I do not want this marriage to interfere with my next. I also accept that i will never be able to treat both wives fairly. I am very confused in my next steps in life and am not getting any straight answers from anyone regarding this issue.
A. List ALL the options you have available.
B. By the first option (for example, divorcing my current wife and marrying the other woman)
1. What are the TOP 10 things I'm trying to ACHIEVE?
2. What are the TOP 10 things I'm trying to AVOID?
B. By the second option (for example, not divorcing my current wife [by continuing with her]:
3. What are the TOP 10 things I'm trying to ACHIEVE?
4. What are the top 10 things I'm trying to AVOID?
You would ask the same two questions for each option (if you have more than two)
Then, go back to each answer (a total of 40 points at least, some of them would repeat) and RATE them from 1 to 10 (1 being not important at all and 10 being extremely important).
Add each 10 answer's rating. So, Question #1 will have a total number; Question #2 will have a total number and so on.
See where the weight is heavier.
I'd suggest you talk about some of these with your current wife.
After you do the exercise (if you seriously sit down and do it, you'll see the situation with an amazing balanced perspective, insha'Allah), talk with a few elder people whom you respect and trust. See what they say.
Than, make a decision.
Pray istikhaarah.
Go with it.
Make sure to "sleep on" your decision for a day or two. Don't rush into it. Give it some time to digest.
Make massive du'aa' to Allaah.
Let us know how it went.
Sharif
Brother Sharif just earned a few rep points for his excellent advice.
I can not add to it and urge you to try what Bro Sharif said,
it will work.
After you made what Sharif said please talk with your wife. Her life counts too and she must have a big say in your decision.
Also, i would like to point out from 6 years you have 2 women in your life and both it seems are happy with you. Have you considered to take a second wifeand legalise in this way the relation what you have with the other woman
Last edited by Tania; 08-03-2008 at 10:41 AM.
I'd suggest adding that as the third option, absolutely. Don't just scratch it off from the beginning. Give chance a chance.format_quote Originally Posted by TaniaHave you considered to take a second wife
Last edited by Sharif; 08-05-2008 at 07:04 AM.
i hate to put my personal lifes experiences into this, but you remind me of someone whom i would disagree with alot.
i cant say it less brutally, you didnt like her, you shouldnt have slept with her.
Its as simple as that, and using her tears as an explanation is very weak.
Bringing 2 children into this world and then divorcing their mother to marry someone you fancy,.. what a way to go. Maybe your situation is more complex than this, but this is how everyone will see it, your sons when they grow up, ur wife, ur family. They will hate you because you dumped them, im sorry, but thats the harsh reality of it. They are not going to understand your feelings in all of this, that you are human too and make mistakes.They will simply see you as someone who abandoned them for his....whatever your relationship to that woman is.
From the above it only seems your thinking about your little love story with this woman.format_quote Originally Posted by TotalControlwe have 2 children together and i would like to get out of this hastle free. I do not want this marriage to interfere with my next
anyway brother, my opinion doesnt matter, brother Sharifs advice is much more worthy of your situation.
forgive me for my harshness, but your situation, ive seen it TOO many times, and the painful and life changing consequences EVERYBODY involved has to suffer in the years to come.
Last edited by Sahabiyaat; 08-03-2008 at 11:34 AM.
I just want to acknowledge what Sahabiyaat said. jazaahi Allaahu khayr.
ANYTHING that happens to you--yes absolutely anything--regardless of how disastrous or painful that may be, you can take that and either:
(a) wallow in it, make excuses, blame others, break your spine, become weak, and make it ruin and others' lives
OR
(b) learn lessons from it, face the brutal facts, grow a spine, be a man, and let it make you even better, even stronger, even sharper, and even more excited and passionate about life!
The choice is always YOURS!
If you want anything "hassle free," you would have to wait until you enter jannat al firdaus (which I hope you'll reach by making some awesome intelligent smart decisions). That's the only place where things are "hassle free."
Over here on mortal land, you'd have to take the curve balls that life throws at you as CHALLENGES and face up to them. Do NOT run away from them; don't even THINK about running away! How are you going to win the battle if you leave the battlefield?
I don't know about your seriousness level for this deen. I'd suggest doing a quick scanning on yourself and seeing where you measure. Make plans to improve on that.
Remember bro., there's always a next level to go to. Every challenge is actually an opportunity to do just that.
So, secure long-term gain even if that means enduring some short-term pain (and not the other way around!)
Be a winner with excellence, insha'Allaah! You can't settle for anything less!
Last edited by Sharif; 08-05-2008 at 04:36 AM.
Either way, the next step you take brother, will hurt those you love or those that love you. Take this into consideration when making your decision and pray for the path that is best for your hereafter. Dont forget istikhara.
Thank you all very much for your replies. I would like to add that regardless of the presence of the second woman in my life, things have never really been good with my wife. I'm not going to say how it was and what it was i tried to do to change my current wife but her mentality states her to not listen to me and only do the things she deems to. I did try and make things work with her but it keeps getting to a point where one has to think about where our life is heading. We STILL live with our parents and do not have our own house and she complains to me about her own roof. However, just as a current example, if she cannot clean and organise her own room then what makes me think that a house will be kept clean for the children.
I still to this day don't consider myself a proper father role model and it hurts. We cannot financially keep up with their demands and very seldom is there an opportunity to spend quality time with them as there is always conflict between my wife and myself.
I will have to ask several Imams before I take any steps in life. An educated and thoughtful action is the one to the right path. Inshallah life will bring the happiness that is required. Alhamdulillah I have at last encountered people who are able to guide me on the right way.
I will keep you posted of what the Imams responses have been.
salam alaikum brother,
oh gosh!!!
first and foremost i wuld like to just say that Pakistani famiies ned to STOP doing this!
this is a sitaution that is starting to become a little bit too common for me for my own liking, i dont know what it is but every other person that i know this is happening to them!!! (sad thing is they are all pakistanis too)
Dear brother, firstly what you have been doin is wrong, fo marrid man to hve realtions with another woman is not permitted in islam.
and if your heat was truly not in it and you knew that you didnt want tp be with her then why have children??? the excuse that you have used is what i hear all the time but you have to realise that your cousin who s your wife was and is probab;y in the same situation as you, cos your a man you go on about it in a different way find yourself another sister that is more compatible to you but for once have you given a thought to your 1st wife?
just like it was arranged for for you it was for her most probably too, begging and crying is never an excuse to give in but did you think why she might have been so desperate for children? sometimes women niavely do it as a mistake thinking that it will bring them closer to their husband or maybe she wanted to fill that void and gap in your marriage that was so empty by having children giving her something to go on.
if it is an absolute dead end for you and your wife then i suggest you give her a divorce legally and islamicaly dont fool yourselve bythinking that since polygamy is permitted in islam you'll be ok, you will never be fair to them both of your relationships, your marriage with ur first and scond wife will be strained TRUST ME!!!
having a third kid to get a council place???? is that a good enough reason to have kids?$
by you making the decision to leave your wife for this other woman believe me is going to be very hard to go through, cos not only is she your cousin but has kids with you too, maybe your family will stop talking to you as well which is common and your wife will not take it well which i very common.
so you need to sit there and think hard brother, do your istikhara first and ask Allah swt to guide you, if your so unhappy to be in a marriage that it leads you to think about committing suicide then from my perspective you shouldnt be in it. why has Allah swt wanted us to get married, marriage is a big part of life and should never be like that and that is another reason why He allows talaaq cos if it does come to that then one can take that option.
but whatever you do dont carry this sitaution on any longer, you either stick it through for your wife and tell the othe woman that she has no place in your life or you leave your wife and go get married to this other woman, or you decide to have 2 wives and live your live that way.
whatever your decision and whatever Allah swt guides you to i pray that He makes it easy for your Insha'Allah
wa salam
If you take the option of taking a second wife, you will have double the financial burden on you.format_quote Originally Posted by TotalControl
We cannot financially keep up with their demands
But, even if you divorce your wife, and remarry you will still have to support your children.
Also, in many Pakistani marriages, the Mahr is set very high as a deterrant to divorce, and is only payed in case of divorce. If this is your situation, can you even afford the divorce?
format_quote Originally Posted by TotalControl
Thank you all very much for your replies. I would like to add that regardless of the presence of the second woman in my life, things have never really been good with my wife. I'm not going to say how it was and what it was i tried to do to change my current wife but her mentality states her to not listen to me and only do the things she deems to. I did try and make things work with her but it keeps getting to a point where one has to think about where our life is heading. We STILL live with our parents and do not have our own house and she complains to me about her own roof. However, just as a current example, if she cannot clean and organise her own room then what makes me think that a house will be kept clean for the children.
I still to this day don't consider myself a proper father role model and it hurts. We cannot financially keep up with their demands and very seldom is there an opportunity to spend quality time with them as there is always conflict between my wife and myself.
I will have to ask several Imams before I take any steps in life. An educated and thoughtful action is the one to the right path. Inshallah life will bring the happiness that is required. Alhamdulillah I have at last encountered people who are able to guide me on the right way.
I will keep you posted of what the Imams responses have been.
i feel your despair and im genuinely very sorry;
a) for being so thoughless as to not even offer my condolances for your deceased daughter, im SO sorry, Innalillahi Wainailayhi Rajioon.
b)for not realising your difficulty for getting on with your wife and trying to make things better
c) and most importantly, for being forced into a marriage at such a young age.
May Allah make things easier for you and help you make the right descion.
Well, brothers and sisters, I have indeed tried to go and receive information on how to go about this the right way. I have spoken to, just a few hours ago, an Imam in the London Central Masjid near Regents park.
The Imam listened and was very helpful. He advised me that getting married again would be of benefit to me. He said that divorce would be the better option if we did not have children together. In this given circumstance, it is best to get married again and keep my current Nikah solely for the ease of accessability to the children. This will also ensure that my 2nd wife will be able to live with ease and understand my commitment.
All I need to do is sit my 1st wife down and explain to her what it is that I am going to do. If she accepts then alhamdullilah all is well. However, the Imam did say that the choice is also hers in whether she wants to stay or not. As me and my wife both know that our relationship is solely emminent for the children I would have done my part in ensuring the equality. The Imam did also say that it would be impossible to treat both equally and she needs to be told.
Things are a bit wierd in the house as we speak but will inshallah over time diffuse and the understanding of life will be bought about better to them.
Mashallah the responses I have received, like I have said, have been the best I have ever received from anyone. Alhamdullilah there are people who wish the best out there.
I will keep you posted of the future responses.
Inshallah all will be well, my dua's are with you as yours are with me.
I would not bring the second wife in the same house where is the first. You should tell that to her. She will remain at her parents or where do she lives now.
Have you considered to see why your first wife really likes youShe doesn't want much.
I don't want to upset you but i read on the forum a real case - it was taken from the media - where a man which didn't like at all his wife, bored, decided to have a talk on the net. From the entire chat room he liked to talk with a specific woman. He fell in love in her, so decided to meet her to see how she looks. You can guess what happened on : on the date day, at the meeting place stand his own wife. Instead of realise how blind it was, he divorced from her. Soemtimes certain persons are so quiet, everything what they are doing its so natural than we don't realise how good they are.
format_quote Originally Posted by TaniaI would not bring the second wife in the same house where is the first. You should tell that to her. She will remain at her parents or where do she lives now.
Have you considered to see why your first wife really likes you
I don't want to upset you but i read on the forum a real case - it was taken from the media - where a man which didn't like at all his wife, bored, decided to have a talk on the net. From the entire chat room he liked to talk with a specific woman. He fell in love in her, so decided to meet her to see how she looks. You can guess what happened on : on the date day, at the meeting place stand his own wife. Instead of realise how blind it was, he divorced from her. Soemtimes certain persons are so quiet, everything what they are doing its so natural than we don't realise how good they are.
I can appreciate what you have said sister and understand what it is you mean. Trust me when I say that I have taken these things into account. You get a taste of what a person is like when you give them a taste of what they like. About 2 years ago we moved into a flat for a short period of time. I was not making enough money when so decided to move back in with my parents.
This flat was her residence and social gathering account. I would often come home after work and would find that food hasn't been made, she would sit in front of the TV and the children would be fed at irregular times. Pretty much what I imagined.
The thing is, I honestly thought it was a phase. The reason we had to move out was because of the complications that existed with my wife and my mother and sister in our home. I supported her through that and made it clear that I was on her side. Alas, the arguements started again. There would be times when my parents would not see their grandchildren for a week at a time. After 5 months I gave up, the financial hardship of not even being able to afford a council rented flat was put to an end and we ended up back at square one.
The blame..... me! I was the one who didn't understand her and fed the family lies!!! Aparently. But I let it all go and tried to establish another stepping stone to continue our journey of life.
This is not merely a statement of saying 'I did this and I did that!'
It is just a taster of what life is actually like. I hope that inshallah lifes tests are passed.
Brother is the second woman that is in your life is she pakistani too?
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