From what I can tell "morals" as in Islam and Christianity is nothing but obedience to he with the ultimate power.
Those of us who are not blindly obedient to power still have empathy and social norms. And I dare say that many "religious" people are more reliant on empathy and social norms than obedience anyway - these are the ones who will pick and choose what parts of their holy book to follow (based on their own god-independent moral compas from what I can tell).
Yes. All human beings have morals and are capable of behaving morally.
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
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From what I can tell "morals" as in Islam and Christianity is nothing but obedience to he with the ultimate power....
That comes into it certainly (in Islam that is, not so sure about Christianity - maybe Glo or Eric H can provide an answer on that front) but it's not the sole reason for behaving morally in Islam.
You feel it in you when you do something good/act morally; you see something on the other persons face or see the 'fruits of your labour' etc. You get some positive feedback from behaving morally, so instinctively you'll repeat it (or do something similar of that nature). Only difference in Islam (compared to non-religious) is that you're given extra encouragement through the teachings.
Someone said to the Prophet, "Pray to God against the idolaters and curse them." The Prophet replied, "I have been sent to show mercy and have not been sent to curse." (Muslim)
Nevermind I got the definition,yes everyone with a religion I think has the capability of having a moral even if they are non Muslims . Jewish people have morals,Sikh people have morals,you need to understand the concept of morals first,after that you can answer your own question.
A moral is basically a message learned from a actual epic(real story about heroic) in Muslims case Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is our epic hero,hero because without him leading our ummah we would be non Muslims,and that means he'll for us. Most morals in Islam are related to Prophets and some to their companions. Everyone has different morals they follow and we should respect that as they would respect ours.
Without Allah, I don't see the point in being "good".
There is no guarantee that peace will triumph over oppression.
Morals would be a man made item which I could discard when they got too burdensome.
Nothing would really matter, morals are a cruel joke in an uncaring universe.
I'd just be a bunch of vibrating atoms with nothing more to me than my chemical makeup.
Really, what does it matter?
I think you know it matters. I think you have a sense of empathy. I think you instinctively dislike seeing others suffer. That has nothing to do with authority (God) or any promise (heaven) or threat (hell). It goes beyond cost/benefit analysis. Its part of who you are as a human being. Yes, even in an uncaring universe, I think you'd still care.
In Islam, everyone is born upon the fitra, it is simply society that corrupts them eventually. Fitra is not limited to worshiping one God, it is essence of all natural human nature, to be good, kind, generous, etc. Even if the fitra of worshiping one God is erased, doesn't mean the entire fitra is.
People are innately good, they have a conscience that compels them to do good and refrain from commiting evil. Most people remain that way throughout their lives, unless they're seriously corrupted. Of course, there's also the problem of what is considered "good" and what is not, which is determined almost entirely by society. As an example, some years back, the "good", normal people were those that condemned homosexuality and gay marriage; now those people are considered bad.
However, simply having good ethics and morals is not enough, since the correct intention for being a good person is not there. For a good deed to be accepted, it must be done purely for the sake of Allah, and in accordance with the sunnah of the prophet. So if someone does not acknowledge the existence of Allah in the first place, or commits shirk, all good deeds are rendered useless in the hereafter (although any nonmuslim who does good deeds will still be dealt with justly- they will either reap their reward in this world, which is the only one that concerns them, or their punishment in the afterlife made less severe.)
using morals is coded in ourselves. they are non-beneficial in some circumstances, and are beneficial in other circumstances. when the majority of the people have strong morals, bein immoral is more beneficial. it is explained in detail in "the selfish gene" by richard dawkins.
one could argue that religion is a strong force in shaping people's moral values, and keeping people immoral in nature from behaving so. this is not different than having laws. belief and religion is beyond morality and laws. they are not the things that set religions apart from other things.
I think you know it matters. I think you have a sense of empathy. I think you instinctively dislike seeing others suffer. That has nothing to do with authority (God) or any promise (heaven) or threat (hell). It goes beyond cost/benefit analysis. Its part of who you are as a human being. Yes, even in an uncaring universe, I think you'd still care.
Part of me being a human being? What is that supposed to mean? Without a metaphysical aspect, I am just blob of atoms having chemical interactions with each other.
Empathy, dislike of suffering etc only go so far. You would be hard pressed to find these to any significant extent in some people. Scientifically, as long as it benefits me I might do it. I might donate to feel good about myself or to let me friends see me as a charitable person, or to get something in return.
I like to take things to their logical ends. "Without God," the more I think about it the more worthless these supposed morals people thrust upon me are. It just doesn't matter. "With God," concepts of ultimate justice come into play which are much more compelling.
By the way, for an atheist you sure describe morals in a sorta-metaphysical manner.
Last edited by AntiKarateKid; 04-12-2009 at 07:27 PM.
I like to take things to their logical ends. "Without God," the more I think about it the more worthless these supposed morals people thrust upon me are. It just doesn't matter. "With God," concepts of ultimate justice come into play which are much more compelling.
It's quite normal for you to feel that way, but it's far from being the truth. People of different religions, pagans, followers of magic and of course today with a much higher frequency, atheists have morals as well. Any person who thinks there should be a law about something, have morals. That's how laws are born.
It's quite normal for you to feel that way, but it's far from being the truth. People of different religions, pagans, followers of magic and of course today with a much higher frequency, atheists have morals as well. Any person who thinks there should be a law about something, have morals. That's how laws are born.
I'm afraid you misread my post. I am not talking about IF people have "morals" as Allah has created us all with the ability to have them, but that without Allah these "morals" are pointless, burdensome, man-made creations.
Also, their "morals" are not truly moral unless their are aligned with what Allah revealed through his messenger who truly was the most moral human being, being one of the Prophets of Mankind.
that is clearly an islamic perspective, but not necessarily the only logical way.
besides, morals can't be man-made creations, even in an islamic p.o.v, as you yourself has stated, Allah has given us. the psyche of men, id, ego and super ego is also existant in Islamic thought and Quran. where there is super ego, there is morals. end of story.
I'm afraid you misread my post. I am not talking about IF people have "morals" as Allah has created us all with the ability to have them, but that without Allah these "morals" are pointless, burdensome, man-made creations.
Also, their "morals" are not truly moral unless their are aligned with what Allah revealed through his messenger who truly was the most moral human being, being one of the Prophets of Mankind.
but brother, morals are for the benefit of mankind, how could any morals be pointless etc?
morals are man made I think. humans will have morals regardless, notice there are people to this day whom the religion hasn't been preached to, yet posses morals.
From what I can tell "morals" as in Islam and Christianity is nothing but obedience to he with the ultimate power.
Hi Pygo
I have never really seen it like that.
You make it sound like believers only ever act in order to obey God.
Like I really can't be bothered to help the old lady across the street ... but I better, because God wants me to.
Like I would love to beat up my neighbour ... but I better not, because the Bible tells me not to.
Like I fancy sleeping around ... but I better not, because God wants me to be a faithful wife.
Of course it isn't really like that.
Is that what you imagine drives believers?
I think people mostly do good things because it brings joy - joy to the other person, joy to oneself and - in the case of those who believe in God - joy to God.
However, there certainly are situations when I am ready to throw in the towel, when I am worn down or when my own moods or desires are about to get the better of me - and when I believe to only continue on or act 'correctly' by the power of God rather than my own strength.
I wonder what makes a non-believer persevere at such a point ...
(But that takes us probably to a different discussion)
Peace
Peace glo
Here I stand.
I can do no other.
May God help me.
Amen.
Come, let us worship and bow down •
and kneel before the Lord our Maker
[Psalm 95]
that is clearly an islamic perspective, but not necessarily the only logical way.
besides, morals can't be man-made creations, even in an islamic p.o.v, as you yourself has stated, Allah has given us. the psyche of men, id, ego and super ego is also existant in Islamic thought and Quran. where there is super ego, there is morals. end of story.
No. Not end of story.
Hypothetical Scenario: I'm on an Island away from civilization. There is an old man with a stash of jewelry and gold. Noone knows him, noone is watching what happens. WHy the hell can't I kill him and take his stuff? Cause we have "morals"? LOL. I'm going to die soon anyways, the least I can do is live large and well before I do. I care about myself and not the man, because it just doesn't matter whichever way I go.
You don't seem to understand still.
It-Doesn't-Matter.
Sure I'll follow them when there's some immediate benefit, but I'm not an animal that I work for the herd. If I want to be selfish I will, I don't give a **** about the other guy unless it suits me in some way, however minute, be it me "feeling" good that I gave the guy a dollar. It all comes down to ME.
but brother, morals are for the benefit of mankind, how could any morals be pointless etc?
morals are man made I think. humans will have morals regardless, notice there are people to this day whom the religion hasn't been preached to, yet posses morals.
See my example above. Why should I care? Because of some ambiguous instinct that you claim we all possess. I'm a thinking man and not at the whims of my instinct. And I think that if it doesn't benefit me I don't care. There is no reason I should either. Scientifically there is no need unless it benefits.
Like I said before. No matter how you live your life or how "moral" you are it doesn't matter in the end. The human race is going to die soon. Everything does. And we are all just dust.
I'm talking hypothetically, in reality Allah has given us morals.
Scientifically there is no need unless it benefits.
scientifically morals are beneficial in a species scale.
let me ask you this, why do people make children? how is it beneficial to spend your time money health on some guy you don't even know but you see people doing it. because we have the urge within ourselves. feels of shame and guilt; conscience is embedded within us.
I really understand why you think you would do the "evil things" islam keeps you from doing now, if you weren't a muslim. but that's your reasoning coming to surface unconsciously. probably.
it is end of story by the way. super ego is morals, and everybody has it.
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