France's ability to reconcile secularism with religious diversity came under fresh scrutiny today after the government said it would not rule out banning Muslim women from wearing the full Islamic veil.
Five years after a law was passed forbidding children from wearing the headscarf or any other "conspicuous" religious symbol in schools, the government indicated it was prepared to wade into another thorny row over the state's right to tell individuals what not to wear.
Speaking after a group of MPs requested an inquiry into the "degrading" use of the burka and niqab, government spokesman Luc Chatel said it was important to establish to what extent women's rights were being compromised by the garments.
"If it were determined that wearing the burka is a submissive act, and that it is contrary to republican principles, naturally parliament would have to drawn the necessary conclusions," he said. When asked whether that could mean bringing in legislation to ensure an outright ban, Chatel answered: "Why not?"
Although there are no official figures, several thousand women are believed to wear the full veil in France, and their appearance has long caused consternation among the upholders of the country's staunchly secular values. Last year a Moroccan woman was refused French citizenship after social services found she wore a burka and was living "in total submission" to her husband.
The Communist MP who led the call this week for an inquiry, André Gerin, denounced the garments as walking prisons. In his request, backed by 57 other MPs, mostly from Nicolas Sarkozy's centre-right UMP party, he said: "The sight of these imprisoned women is already intolerable to us when they come from Iran, Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia … It is totally unacceptable on French soil."
For a ban to be implemented, an investigation would first have to be opened and its results studied for any sign of incompatibility between secular values and the use of the full veil. President Sarkozy, who recently defended France's division between the state and religion during a press conference with Barack Obama, is understood to be in favour of the issue being explored.
Sarkozy's leftwing urban policies secretary, herself a Muslim and former president of a women's rights group, today gave her support to "a total ban" on the burka. "I am for the banning of this coffin which kills basic freedoms," Fadela Amara told Le Parisien newspaper. "This debate has to clear the way to a law which protects women."
This point of view, however, is not shared by everyone. Muslim leaders have urged politicians not to create more tension between communities.
"To raise the subject like this, via a parliamentary committee, is a way of stigmatising Islam and the Muslims of France," said Mohammed Moussaouni, head of the French Council for the Muslim Faith. He said the full veil remained a marginal choice for most Muslim women, and such a provocative move threatened to alienate those more moderate in their practices.
His plea for the motion to be left alone was echoed by the immigration minister, Eric Besson, who said that, since 2004, France had "managed to strike a balance, and it would be dangerous to call that into question".
Re: Why not ban full veil, says French government spokesman
"The sight of these imprisoned women is already intolerable to us when they come from Iran, Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia …
The sisters are not imprisoned. The non-Muslim women are the ones who are imprisoned. They go around showing their flesh to people who aren't even supposed to be seeing it, they put themselves on display, how disgusting.
"It is totally unacceptable on French soil."
You praying to Gods other than Allah, whilst you live on His land, eat and drink from what He has provided, wear from the material He has given you, is unacceptable.
Re: Why not ban full veil, says French government spokesman
What is the French government problem? They are fools. Why are they telling everyone how to dress? Haven't they got more pressing matters to be dealt with?
It is clear France is not a free country. They do not allow people to express themselves. Bizarre how the Western media do not make big deal about these matters.
The Communist MP who led the call this week for an inquiry, André Gerin, denounced the garments as walking prisons. In his request, backed by 57 other MPs, mostly from Nicolas Sarkozy's centre-right UMP party, he said: "The sight of these imprisoned women is already intolerable to us when they come from Iran, Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia … It is totally unacceptable on French soil."
Honestly when I hear this, it really annoys me. How is wearing a Hijab a form of imprisonment? The Hijab was created to uphold the morality of women.
Re: Why not ban full veil, says French government spokesman
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
What is the French/Saudi government problem? They are fools. Why are they telling everyone how to dress? Haven't they got more pressing matters to be dealt with?
It is clear France/Saudi Arabia is not a free country. They do not allow people to express themselves. Bizarre how the Western/Arab media do not make big deal about these matters.
Re: Why not ban full veil, says French government spokesman
format_quote Originally Posted by T.I.A
No. Because that is a religious county, and you can't see their rules causing any problems; e.g. single mothers, rape, homosexuality, etc.
I see. So the freedoms that Muslims expect in the west will not be reciprocated to non-Muslims in an Islamic country. As long as that's clear, we're all good.
Re: Why not ban full veil, says French government spokesman
format_quote Originally Posted by Foxhole
Agreed?
Why are you comparing Saudi Arabia and France? Two completely different countries. Even I dislike the way the Saudi Arabian government functions. I have something to dislike about every government from different countries, including West and the East.
However if you want comparsion...crime statistics for rape. Source NationMaster.
Keep in mind I did not meantioned all the countries. As you can clearly see, there is a significant differnece between rape statistics between Saudi Arabia and France. What is one country doing that the other is not? :/
Some of the religious laws help prevent problems from occuring in Saudi Arabia.
Re: Why not ban full veil, says French government spokesman
Why do women want to show their flesh off anyway? I've never really understood that. Womens are pearls, they are beauty, who should be reserved for their husband only.
Re: Why not ban full veil, says French government spokesman
format_quote Originally Posted by T.I.A
Why do women want to show their flesh off anyway? I've never really understood that. Womens are pearls, they are beauty, who should be reserved for their husband only.
The problem I believe is the media. The media tells women and men how to dress and how to look. The fashion industry plays a significant role in everyone lives in the U.K. Celebrities are like the role models for some girls and boys. Some girls are put under pressure to conform to the media and can be put under scrutiny by other people if they don't abide by them. I noticed many girls/boys try to enhance their beauty to impress others. I seen this happen in school and even at work.
Looks become so important that personality is not taken into an account.
Re: Why not ban full veil, says French government spokesman
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Why are you comparing Saudi Arabia and France? Two completely different countries. Even I dislike the way the Saudi Arabian government functions. I have something to dislike about every government from different countries, including West and the East.
However if you want comparsion...crime statistics for rape. Source NationMaster.
Keep in mind I did not meantioned all the countries. As you can clearly see, there is a significant differnece between rape statistics between Saudi Arabia and France. What is one country doing that the other is not? :/
Some of the religious laws help prevent problems from occuring in Saudi Arabia.
To see if you believe in freedom, or just Islam.
I believe that women should be free to choose hijab or not, whether in France or Saudi Arabia. But I'm guessing that you, like a lot of Muslims, pull out the word "freedom" when it suits you, but you don't actually believe in it.
So preventing women from traveling freely and forcibly segregating men and women reduces the number of rapes that occur. So what? If the frequency of rape is how you measure the success of social policy, then I have an idea: there will be even fewer rapes if all women are imprisoned.
Re: Why not ban full veil, says French government spokesman
format_quote Originally Posted by Foxhole
[COLOR="Red"]To see if you believe in freedom, or just Islam.
I believe in both too. One should not be forced to follow Islamic values.
I believe that women should be free to choose hijab or not, whether in France or Saudi Arabia. But I'm guessing that you, like a lot of Muslims, pull out the word "freedom" when it suits you, but you don't actually believe in it.
Same the issue of freedom can be applied to France. I personally don't care if a non-Muslim girl does not wish to wear the Hijab or not. It is her choice.
So preventing women from traveling freely and forcibly segregating men and women reduces the number of rapes that occur. So what? If the frequency of rape is how you measure the success of social policy, then I have an idea: there will be even fewer rapes if all women are imprisoned.
How do you know women are not allowed to travel freely in Saudi Arabia? Watch some impartial documentries about women lives in Saudi Arabia. You will get a balanced view.
People don't understand how rapes actually occur. It is not always a women walking on the street, and a stranger rapes her. You need to take into account of the perpetrator.
I know wiki is not the best source of information but it will have to do.
Perpetrator Frequency
Steady dating partner 21.6%
Casual friend 16.5%
Ex-boyfriend 12.2%
Acquaintance 10.8%
Close friend 10.1%
Casual date 10.1%
Husband 7.2%
Stranger 2%
Drug, especially alcohol, use is frequently involved in rape. In 47% of rapes, both the victim and the perpetrator had been drinking. In 17%, only the perpetrator had been. 7% of the time, only the victim had been drinking. Rapes where neither the victim nor the perpetrator had been drinking were 29% of all rapes.[2]
Contrary to widespread belief, rape outdoors is rare. Over two thirds of all rapes occur in someone's home. 30.9% occur in the perpetrators' homes, 26.6% in the victims' homes and 10.1% in homes shared by the victim and perpetrator. 7.2% occur at parties, 7.2% in vehicles, 3.6% outdoors and 2.2% in bars.[2]
This shows a women must have prior experiences with the man before she got raped.
Harsher penalties?
Yes but precautions are taken too.
Last edited by GuestFellow; 06-22-2009 at 03:33 PM.
Re: Why not ban full veil, says French government spokesman
format_quote Originally Posted by T.I.A
Why do women want to show their flesh off anyway? I've never really understood that. Womens are pearls, they are beauty, who should be reserved for their husband only.
Well, they probably feel more comfortable in their own oufits...some may not be so if they're covered from head to toe in the middle of summer.
It does not really imply that they are "showing off their flesh."
Re: Why not ban full veil, says French government spokesman
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
I believe in both too. One should not be forced to follow Islamic values.
Same the issue of freedom can be applied to France. I personally don't care if a non-Muslim girl does not wish to wear the Hijab or not. It is her choice.
How do you know women are not allowed to travel freely in Saudi Arabia? Watch some impartial documentries about women lives in Saudi Arabia. You will get a balanced view.
People don't understand how rapes actually occur. It is not always a women walking on the street, and a stranger rapes her. You need to take into account of the perpetrator.
I know wiki is not the best source of information but it will have to do.
This shows a women must have prior experiences with the man before she got raped.
Yes but precautions are taken too.
a) Should it be her choice in Saudi Arabia?
b) And a Muslim woman ... ?
Except for husband rape and stranger rape, all of the other rapes you listed are prevented by forced segregation, which I also mentioned.
Re: Why not ban full veil, says French government spokesman
Selam aleykum,
Brothers and sisters, you have every right to be outraged by this idea of infringement of freedom.
But foxhole's reply was a good reminder. Saudia arabia does do the same thing and and does implement rules that it shouldn't do. The kingdom of saudia limits personal and religious freedom. This is not Islamic either. So in all honesty, defending saudia arabia in this thread is somewhat of a lost cause if you ask me.
On another note, I would be outraged if they ban the niqaab, but isn't the burqa bidah?
Last edited by Abdul Fattah; 06-22-2009 at 03:45 PM.
Re: Why not ban full veil, says French government spokesman
format_quote Originally Posted by Foxhole
a) Should it be her choice in Saudi Arabia?
b) And a Muslim woman ... ?
Yes. Personally I think it is pointless to force someone to follow Islamic values, whether Muslim or non-Muslim. Whatever action they take, is not going to affect me. That is the way I see it.
I don't like what Saudi Arabia does sometimes. For example, I dislike how Christians are persecuted in that country.
Except for husband rape and stranger rape, all of the other rapes you listed are prevented by forced segregation, which I also mentioned.
No. When men and women do mix sometimes but they have to cover themselves up.
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