I was looking at myself talking to myself and I realized this conversation...I was having with myself looking at myself was a conversation with myself that I needed to have with myself.
Even though the Hajj itself is far too holy to be used for political protests, Saudi Arabia needs to be confronted of its treatments of Shia Muslims. Saudi Arabia is a country that uses religious apartheid just as badly as the racial apartheid that dominated South Africa during the 1980s, and it's about time a competent government stood up to the Saudis and their appalling treatment of religious minorities in the country- including the biggest minority, Shia Muslims. Because God knows, America won't do it, seeing as it supports the Saudi Government and its brutal regime.
Saudi Arabia has warned pilgrims not to stage protests at the Hajj, a challenge to Iran which believes the event has political and spiritual dimensions.
Since when Haj pilgrimage has political dimension?
Even though the Hajj itself is far too holy to be used for political protests, Saudi Arabia needs to be confronted of its treatments of Shia Muslims. Saudi Arabia is a country that uses religious apartheid just as badly as the racial apartheid that dominated South Africa during the 1980s, and it's about time a competent government stood up to the Saudis and their appalling treatment of religious minorities in the country- including the biggest minority, Shia Muslims. Because God knows, America won't do it, seeing as it supports the Saudi Government and its brutal regime.
what are you talking about? 1. a shaikh got banned from preaching after defending against a shia attack one of the Companions...
2. i dont think its fair you mention the Saudi's ill treatment (according to the article, its even alleged) of shia's whilst failing to mention the minority sunni's who get tortured in Iran.
3. religious apartheid? what? there are heaps of non-Muslims allowed to work in Saudi.
Last edited by Ummu Sufyaan; 11-04-2009 at 08:05 AM.
...desperate for husnul-khitaam...
please make dua that Allah grants me a good end (to my life). please make dua that Allah guides me.
Even though the Hajj itself is far too holy to be used for political protests, Saudi Arabia needs to be confronted of its treatments of Shia Muslims. Saudi Arabia is a country that uses religious apartheid just as badly as the racial apartheid that dominated South Africa during the 1980s, and it's about time a competent government stood up to the Saudis and their appalling treatment of religious minorities in the country- including the biggest minority, Shia Muslims. Because God knows, America won't do it, seeing as it supports the Saudi Government and its brutal regime.
I suggest you do not subject yourself to manipulated media and fall into discrimination yourself. Shia polemycs are essentially anti-Islamic, and Sunni Iranian population has been abused, tortured, beaten, and today at more than a million strong are not allowed to hold prayers. The only thing that Saudi does not allow on its soil are Huseiniyyat where deviated practices of self-punishment and mutilation, and insulting the companions of the prophet take place.
Additionally Shia hardly form a recognizable minority in Saudi Arabia. Additionally I hardly think the Vatican would ever make concessions for the sake of the visiting protestants or baptists that degrade or detract their religion, nor would the Hindus accept their holy cows being slain at their ashrams by a deviated sect, so I do not comprehend the logic of expecting muslims who have the last testament accept that deviated insulting rituals are practiced in their land, let alone allow pilgrimage from becoming a dangerous protest.
_____________________________________________
Iblis's eternal destination in the Hellfire is due to Arrogance, not Disbelief.
what are you talking about? 1. a shaikh got banned from preaching after defending against a shia attack one of the Companions...
2. i dont think its fair you mention the Saudi's ill treatment (according to the article, its even alleged) of shia's whilst failing to mention the minority sunni's who get tortured in Iran.
3. religious apartheid? what? there are heaps of non-Muslims allowed to work in Saudi.
Believe me, I'm not defending Iran. Iran has tonnes of its own problems with its population. But at least Sunnis in Iran get seats in Parliament, and can build their own mosques and celebrate their own festivals.
Saudi Arabia pretty much needs the help of foreign nationals, but just because non Muslims are allowed to stay there, they're not allowed to practise their religion freely (or even, despite Saudi promises, privately in some cases). But then, that's only the religious segregation. Let's not forget the gender segregation...
Additionally Shia hardly form a recognizable minority in Saudi Arabia
3%, which is the same percentage of Muslims in Britain, yet we still allow Muslims to have their own customs, practises, religion. Just sayin'...
Additionally I hardly think the Vatican would ever make concessions for the sake of the visiting protestants or baptists that degrade or detract their religion
At least the Vatican treats Protestants as humans, and instead of going on all the time about how 'un-Christian' we are, at least Catholics try and make amends and try and build up good relations after our two denominations bloody past.
Believe me, I'm not defending Iran. Iran has tonnes of its own problems with its population. But at least Sunnis in Iran get seats in Parliament, and can build their own mosques and celebrate their own festivals.
Saudi Arabia pretty much needs the help of foreign nationals, but just because non Muslims are allowed to stay there, they're not allowed to practise their religion freely (or even, despite Saudi promises, privately in some cases). But then, that's only the religious segregation. Let's not forget the gender segregation...
Sunnis are by Iranian constitution denied from leadership or political positions in Iran and specifically cannot hold friday prayers or celebrate festivals. The very foundation of Mousavi's campaign was easing such restrictions.
On the other hand, like I said, Shia are only disallowed from having husseineiiat, which is a bloody ritual where they wound and lash themselves publicly and slap their faces and chests. Therefore What you have said is categorically untrue and deliberately reversed. What you are doing now is just bashing muslims and Islam with false accusations.
Additionally, when you start going on about religious and gender segregation, you are just fooling yourself and everyone with political rhetoric that sounds negative but actually normal and not having it is inapplicable anywhere else in the World. Religious segregation is a negative connotation yet absolute fact in any country that rightfully holds religious authority. Again, I don't see protestants or jews or athiests getting positions in the Vatican, and I don't expect that to happen any time soon. Saudi Arabia is not the "church" of Islam, bacause there isn't one, but it is the foundational and scholarly center of Islam and is governed as such. For you to call on Saudi to become a secular state is a political call, one that we reject wholeheartedly, and it is hypocritical from you to do so while trying to make a religious state sound morally corrupt and oppressive, while the likes of Israel and the Vatican are free to owe their existence and the dictation of their laws and belief system to judaism and catholicism.
As for the gender segregation, it is something that all practicing muslims enjoy and want to embrace, and it has brought moral superiority and social stability the likes of which Western countries only dream of, with extra-marital affairs, sexual harrassment accusations, rampant rape incidents, and pregnant teenage girls out of wedlock all becoming facts of daily life. Such matters you may have become desensitized with due to its happening every day, yet it seems you are very susciptible to believing that the Saudi or Islamic society is morally inferior because every three months you hear of an over-sensationalized story of a crime or an indecent situation, which is bombarded and plastered all over the news and media channels and repeated till people throw up. Your calls to the removal of gender segregation is persecution of Islamic values that are not only beyond reproach, but are wanted and desired and appreciated by muslims far and wide, so it's not your right to force what is statistically and evidentially morally inferior onto a society and claim you are making it better. It shouldn't escape you that gender segregation was actually foundational elements in judaism and christianity before "easing" it out by those who saw fit to call themselves God's vessels of inspiration.
At least the Vatican treats Protestants as humans, and instead of going on all the time about how 'un-Christian' we are, at least Catholics try and make amends and try and build up good relations after our two denominations bloody past.
Nobody called anyone unchristian, seems to be a Freudian slip I guess. Anyway, you're the one who started this line of questioning and started flinging accusations, why would you claim the right to call the Catholic chrurch off limits then? Specifically when it is the church itself that commited the horrific crimes in the name of Jesus, and claimed it is inspiration from God to the holy pope and his bishops, and today you still embrace them. On the other hand whatever muslims do is what muslims do and anyone claiming that they are receiving divine inspiration is pronounced outside the fold of Islam. Saudi Arabia that you are attacking denounced and spent money, time, and resources to educate the World on how unislamic the terrorists are, and was subject itself to terrorist attacks.
Brother, we hold peaceful and friendly regards towards christians, and value their adoption of what they received to be God's message of abiding by the best of ethics and morals, believing in the creator of the Heavens and Earth, and steming the tide of godlessness that is sweeping the Western World. However if you feel so strongly about christianity, how christian are you right now with such accusations - false or not -?
You have been given false news and you are acting upon them negatively. God be with you brother, and may you find peace and truth.
Supreme is a brother, not a sister. Also, it was Guestfellow who started this thread, not Supreme.
Sorry about that, I corrected the sister part. However I meant line of discussion towards attacking Saudi when I said thread, not specifically being the OP, adjusted as well. Thanks brother Uthman.
Last edited by Sampharo; 11-04-2009 at 01:31 PM.
_____________________________________________
Iblis's eternal destination in the Hellfire is due to Arrogance, not Disbelief.
On the other hand, like I said, Shia are only disallowed from having husseineiiat, which is a bloody ritual where they wound and lash themselves publicly and slap their faces and chests. Therefore What you have said is categorically untrue and deliberately reversed. What you are doing now is just bashing muslims and Islam with baseless accusations.
Actually, I'm bashing Saudi Arabia, not Muslims. That's called paranoia. Just because your two Holy Mosques are located in Saudi Arabia, it doesn't exactly mean you have to automatically endorse everything the Saudi King says or does.
Sunnis are by Iranian constitution denied from leadership or political positions in Iran and specifically cannot hold friday prayers or celebrate festivals. The very foundation of Mousavi's campaign was easing such restrictions.
I'm not denying that Iran is backwards country suffering from its own insecurity. I'm just saying that Iran is less of a backwards country suffering from its own insecurity than Saudi Arabia.
Nobody called anyone unchristian, seems to be a Freudian slip I guess. Anyway, you're the one who started this thread and started flinging accusations, why would you claim the right to call the Catholic chrurch off limits then? Specifically when it is the church itself that commited the horrific crimes in the name of Jesus, and claimed it is inspiration from God to the holy pope and his bishops, and today you still embrace them. On the other hand whatever muslims do is what muslims do and anyone claiming that they are receiving divine inspiration is pronounced outside the fold of Islam. Saudi Arabia that you are attacking denounced and spent money, time, and resources to educate the World on how unislamic the terrorists are, and was subject itself to terrorist attacks.
I didn't start this thread, and I didn't expect anyone to take my accusations to heart (isn't patriotism banned?) Your miscomofort with Catholicism and its history is of no concern to me as a non-Catholic, and I don't know why you're bringing terrorists into the equation. I know Saudi Arabia has been attacked by Al Queda, but then most countries on the planet have. It's not exactly a unique quality.
Sister, we hold peaceful and friendly regards towards christians, and value their adoption of what they received to be God's message of abiding by the best of ethics and morals, believing in the creator of the Heavens and Earth, and steming the tide of godlessness that is sweeping the Western World. However if you feel so strongly about christianity, how christian are you right now with such accusations - baseless or not
Also completely unrelated, the topic is the Saudi regime, not Christianity. I'm a brother, not a sister.
You have been given false news and you are acting upon them negatively. God be with you sister, and may you find peace and truth.
False news? Your denial of the suppression of religious minorities in Saudi Arabia, particularly Shias, is frankly insulting to everyone who's ever suffered at the hands of its regime. I will find peace and truth; it's just a shame many Saudis will never be able to.
Actually, I'm bashing Saudi Arabia, not Muslims. That's called paranoia. Just because your two Holy Mosques are located in Saudi Arabia, it doesn't exactly mean you have to automatically endorse everything the Saudi King says or does.
Saudi Arabia is at the center of Islamic World and when you bash the country you bash muslims. Not to mention, like I explained earlier, we as muslims are quite supportive of such a policy and would never approve of someone allowing Shia or non-muslims to take political control in the largest Arabian Islamic country. Your insistence on pushing your secular view is rejected from its base and has already been displayed to be hypocritical to make such demands while other religious-centric countries are "understandably" exclusive of other religions.
I'm not denying that Iran is backwards country suffering from its own insecurity. I'm just saying that Iran is less of a backwards country suffering from its own insecurity than Saudi Arabia.
Personal opinion that is on the measurement stick of opinions is a very poor one. Simple indicator: How many Iranians ran away from Iran seeking political asylum? hundreds of thousands. How many Saudis are doing so? Extremely few, aside from the few sensationalized stories of Saudi women that want a liberal life away from Islam and do not like the life in Saudi Arabia because of it.
Your miscomofort with Catholicism and its history is of no concern to me as a non-Catholic.
You brought it up with your suggestion that christians are superior because they are trying to "correct" their bloody past. I don't have discomfort with Catholicism, I am merely pointing at your double-standards at calling at Saudi Arabia as a corrupt regime when religious states are at the center of the Western World apparently beyond reproach for adopting exactly the same policies or maybe even more.
Also completely unrelated, the topic is the Saudi regime, not Christianity. I'm a brother, not a sister.
For the sister thing, I apologise, I made corrections above. As for the topic though, as earlier explained, what you addressed are matters of Islamic society and law, and if the Saudi family is removed, the legal structure and general policy of Islamic law and baning bloody or insulting sectarian rituals and gender segregation will be maintained and wholeheartedly supported by the majority of muslims in the Arabian Peninsula. So if you continue to voice your objections to that, you will be just pushing your own politically charged opinions that we see as just anti-Islamic.
False news? Your denial of the suppression of religious minorities in Saudi Arabia, particularly Shias, is frankly insulting to everyone who's ever suffered at the hands of its regime. I will find peace and truth; it's just a shame many Saudis will never be able to.
If I wanted to insult, we would be having a completely different conversation. I am being very respectful and serious though towards this conversation: You are just continuing the propagation of anti-Islamic rhetoric, and that is frankly frustrating, and as a result we'll continue to challenge you. Bring your evidence of the "suffering" please to examine and measure, or please refrain from it. That is not being unreasonable.
_____________________________________________
Iblis's eternal destination in the Hellfire is due to Arrogance, not Disbelief.
Saudi Arabia is at the center of Islamic World and when you bash the country you bash muslims. Not to mention, like I explained earlier, we as muslims are quite supportive of such a policy and would never approve of someone allowing Shia or non-muslims to take political control in the largest Arabian Islamic country. Your insistence on pushing your secular view is rejected from its base and has already been displayed to be hypocritical to make such demands while other religious-centric countries are "understandably" exclusive of other religions.
No sectarian issues allowed. We are promoting the unity of Islam. Allah (Exalted is He) said in Surah Al-An'âm, verse 159:
Verily, those who divide their religion and break up into sects (all kinds of religious sects), you (O Muhammad -- Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) have no concern in them in the least. Their affair is only with Allâh, Who then will tell them what they used to do. 15 Points
Not only are you acting rather patriotic to Saudi Arabia, you're also promoting sectarian divisions in Islam by openly stating you wouldn't want a Shia Muslim in the Saudi Government. Also, Saudi Arabia isn't the largest Arab Muslim country,in terms of population or area. Always happy to correct! Most Muslims look past boundaries and the 'center of the Islamic world you insult all Muslims when you insult Saudi' attitude, but I suppose the truth hurts to a select few who have taken it upon themselves to be insulted when just about anything about Islam is said. I haven't insulted Prophet Muhammed (pbuh), his family, God, Mecca, Medina, any prophet or the Quran, merely a state that has taken it upon itself to persecute thousands of Shia Muslims, and yet you still get offended because I've somehow, in some way insulted Islam? By that reasoning, anyone who is against Zionism is actually anti semitic and insult Judaism! I do hope ever so much you're not a zionist, I would oh so much hate to use your own reasoning against you...
Personal opinion that is on the measurement stick of opinions is a very poor one. Simple indicator: How many Iranians ran away from Iran seeking political asylum? hundreds of thousands. How many Saudis are doing so? Extremely few, aside from the few sensationalized stories of Saudi women that want a liberal life away from Islam and do not like the life in Saudi Arabia because of it.
How many Iranians are there? 70 million. How many Saudis are there. 27 million. Let's not get caught up in meaningless statistics...
You brought it up with your suggestion that christians are superior because they are trying to "correct" their bloody past. I don't have discomfort with Catholicism, I am merely pointing at your double-standards at calling at Saudi Arabia as a corrupt regime when religious states are at the center of the Western World apparently beyond reproach for adopting exactly the same policies or maybe even more.
There's your paranoia kicking in again. I never said Christians were superior. Far from it. I was actually saying, in a kind of binary way, I'm the better person here because I don't hate other denominations and would be perfectly fine with them ruling my country. To suggest every Muslim is as close minded as you are when it comes to the sunni vs shia thing is ignorant, and the site rules here prove that not every Muslim here is like you. As for the last bit, I can only imagine Northern Ireland. There's no other country in the West scarred by such relations...
For the sister thing, I apologise, I made corrections above. As for the topic though, as earlier explained, what you addressed are matters of Islamic society and law, and if the Saudi family is removed, the legal structure and general policy of Islamic law and baning bloody or insulting sectarian rituals and gender segregation will be maintained and wholeheartedly supported by the majority of muslims in the Arabian Peninsula. So if you continue to voice your objections to that, you will be just pushing your own politically charged opinions that we see as just anti-Islamic.
Hang on, persecution of religious minorities is Islamic, is it? That's funny, in the Golden Age of Islam, People of the Book and Shias were given protection and rights, as were women. Ah well, I guess even the best caliphs just weren't as 'Islamic' as the blessed Saudi Royal Family of today.
If I wanted to insult, we would be having a completely different conversation. I am being very respectful and serious though towards this conversation: You are just continuing the propagation of anti-Islamic rhetoric, and that is frankly frustrating, and as a result we'll continue to challenge you. Bring your evidence of the "suffering" please to examine and measure, or please refrain from it. That is not being unreasonable.
Oh yes, my persistent insult to Islam that approximately no other Muslim on this forum has been offended by must stop! Also, 'we'!? Are you schizophrenic or something?
Since when Haj pilgrimage has political dimension?
Since Allah (swt) ordered it has..
What's the philosophy of stoning shaitan? Is it not an act against satanic powers (of Jinn and Humans)?
Aren't US government and Zionist Regime worst satans of all time?
Shouldn't Muslims who suffer from their oppression protest in Hajj?
Why does Saudi Arabia protect devils? Why shouldn't we stone them?
Palestinian brothers are stoning them in al-Qods.. All muslims should do the same in Mekkah..
Allah says; "(This is a declaration of) immunity by Allah and His Messenger towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement. And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage (HAJJ al-AKBAR),- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith." [9:3]
When the verse was revealed, Prophet (pbuh) ordered Hadrat Ali (r.a) to read it aloud in Meccah..
After that, many declarations were made there.. Kaabah has been a place for political moves I think..
Hajj is a place for pilgrims to hold conferences and determine Muslims' politics to foil enemy plots inshaAllah..
Not only are you acting rather patriotic to Saudi Arabia, you're also promoting sectarian divisions in Islam by openly stating you wouldn't want a Shia Muslim in the Saudi Government. Also, Saudi Arabia isn't the largest Arab Muslim country,in terms of population or area. Always happy to correct! Most Muslims look past boundaries and the 'center of the Islamic world you insult all Muslims when you insult Saudi' attitude, but I suppose the truth hurts to a select few who have taken it upon themselves to be insulted when just about anything about Islam is said. I haven't insulted Prophet Muhammed (pbuh), his family, God, Mecca, Medina, any prophet or the Quran, merely a state that has taken it upon itself to persecute thousands of Shia Muslims, and yet you still get offended because I've somehow, in some way insulted Islam? By that reasoning, anyone who is against Zionism is actually anti semitic and insult Judaism! I do hope ever so much you're not a zionist, I would oh so much hate to use your own reasoning against you...
Do you really think such an incoherent rant is really addressing anything? I don't think so. You seem to be either slow or desperate to force virtual reality on the situation. Accept it or not: Saudi Arabia is an Islamic state not a secular one. We reject secularism and its values. So stop ranting over and over you're making a fool of yourself.
Additionally it seems You are trying but failing to dodge the hypocritical nature of your argument and can't address it: Can the Vatican accept a protestant in the Vatican government or ranks of bishops? No, so why are you ranting over and over? Shia are not orthodox muslims to take position in an orthodox Islamic state, end of story. I am not personally offended (despite your pathetic attempts at insulting me personally and getting a rise out of me), however your posts are still bashing Islamic values and policies that are valid and are part of Islam whether or not you like it or agree with it (which still doesn't matter considering you're actually a hypocrit).
How many Iranians are there? 70 million. How many Saudis are there. 27 million. Let's not get caught up in meaningless statistics...
Oh yes they are very meaningful, but in case you are that backwards, 27 million is over 35% of 70 million. Why would a 100 compared to say 500,000 refugee Iranians be meaningless statistics? Or is it because you are incapable of bringing any detailed evidence to your claims you are desparately trying to keep all evidenciary conversation out? Maybe just to keep this a living debatable rant and you can get away while saving face.
There's your paranoia kicking in again. I never said Christians were superior. Far from it. I was actually saying, in a kind of binary way, I'm the better person here because I don't hate other denominations and would be perfectly fine with them ruling my country.
Good for you! Even though we don't hate other denominations as well, we're NOT PERFECTLY FINE with them running our country. The way you're speaking it seems that you're hating us for it, isn't that a bit contradicting? Why are you so desperately trying to force your secular standard and call that it's otherwise a corrupt and oppressive government, while both Iran and Vatican themselves are perfect examples of religious-based countries that ban any other than their own religion from taking any positions in the state government?
Hang on, persecution of religious minorities is Islamic, is it? That's funny, in the Golden Age of Islam, People of the Book and Shias were given protection and rights, as were women. Ah well, I guess even the best caliphs just weren't as 'Islamic' as the blessed Saudi Royal Family of today.
Another tirade of desperate make-believe and virtual-reality to stuff down readers' throats? Or maybe you thought some muslims will be silly enough to think your comments were compliments of Islam? To enlighten the ignorants: People of the book in the Islamic Nation were given rights, but still never allowed to work in government (Omar wouldn't even allow a scribe or an accountant that is not muslim) and paid Jizya in return to not serving the army. As for Shias they were exiled, fought, and those who called Ali Ibn Abi Taleb to be a God, were sentenced to death for apostasy.
Your attempt at making the exclusion of Shia from Saudi government and prevention of specific bloody rituals seem like persecution of a minority has been shown to be a complete failure and bankrupt.
Oh yes, my persistent insult to Islam that approximately no other Muslim on this forum has been offended by must stop! Also, 'we'!? Are you schizophrenic or something?
No, they just don't care to address your posts while one is taking care of it. Why don't we ask the moderators at least to voice whether they too believe that Shias should be allowed to cut their shaved heads and lash their backs in the streets of Mecca, or gain governmental and scholarly positions in Saudi Arabia when they - by Shia religious decree - have to maintain allegience to their Imam in Iran and not the ruler of the country they're in, in order to be "open-minded" and "tolerant"?
Why again are you not calling the Vatican to stop "persecuting" other christians and allow them in the papal hierarchy or governmental positions in the country? Oh yes, because you don't actually believe in this, you just started bashing Saudi Arabia ignorantly and now can't stop after the bubbles you were blowing were all burst so you have to hold on to something to save face.
I am no longer interested in continuing this, you are neither genuine about your views nor logical, and your tone of conversation has become desperate obviously after failing to make a point, but to resort to all the insults and personal attacks is just juvenile and necessitates that this is brought to a close.
Peace
_____________________________________________
Iblis's eternal destination in the Hellfire is due to Arrogance, not Disbelief.
I have to agree with Brother Sampharo here. The mainstream scholars are in unanimous agreement that the Shia are outside the fold of Islam, so heretical are their beliefs. Therefore, just as other Non-Muslims aren't allowed into Makkah, neither should they be.
Last edited by Uthman; 11-05-2009 at 04:06 PM.
"I spent thirty years learning manners, and I spent twenty years learning knowledge."
Brother Hamza, do not mix and mismatch what you do not understand. What Uthman has mentioned is based on solid evidence and agreed upon by all scholars: whomever does not fully and exclusively accept the five pillars of Islam and the six articles of faith is a outside the fold of Islam. Shia have corrupted the Shahada, the declaration, the most crucial and central of the five pillars, by adding Ali to be the Waleyy of Allah to the declaration statement. Also they replaced Hajj with pilgrimage to Qomm, their shrine in Syria as a more fundamental pillar, more important than Haj that you were talking about. Additionally they corrupted their faith, specifically tawhid, by accepting their clerics and mullas as instruments of salvation, forgiveness, and that their Imams are recipients of direct inspiration, as well as most claim the Quran to be modified, and all of them (Imameyya Rafeda) declare that Ali and his progeny are infallible inspired prophets.
Complete consensus of scholars of Ahlu Sunnah Wal JamaAAa of all five schools of jurisprudence and those outside, say that Shia Imameyya are out of the fold of Islam and cannot be hired in government, have any fiqh accepted from them, have any hadith carried through, and cannot even marry muslim women to their men just like christians and jews. This is also proven to be the rulings from the days of the four Kholafaa Al-Rashedoon.
As for your earlier post as to why it shouldn't be used as a ground for political gain or protest: because it is a spiritual journey and event where millions of people are cramming in tight spaces wanting to seek forgiveness and fulfill their rituals, not to instigate political agendas without reservation leading like last time to demonstration that in the crowds caused the deaths of hundreds of innocent pilgrims.
_____________________________________________
Iblis's eternal destination in the Hellfire is due to Arrogance, not Disbelief.
mainstream scholars havent condemned all shias as kaffirs and outside Islam, and i certainly dont view all shias as kaffirs, if you want to start making takfir on shias how about you make takfir on your beloved rulers in egypt and saudia who themselves have openly broken several Islamic rules that makes them KAFFIRS.
What we say about interacting with the Shi’ah depends on the situation. The innovated beliefs of the Shi’ah vary. If it is something that does not put them beyond the pale of Islam, but is rather regarded as drifting away from the right path, such as their claiming to be devoted to Ahl al-Bayt (the family of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)), then it is permissible to greet them first, because they are Muslims who have committed acts of innovation and sin that do not put them beyond the pale of Islam, and we have to advise them and direct them towards the Sunnah and the truth, and warn them against innovation and sin. If they follow right guidance and accept advice, then praise be to Allaah, for this is what we want. But if they persist in following innovation, then they should be forsaken until they repent to Allaah and give up their innovations and evil ways, because this is a kind of punishment for them. If something good can be achieved by means of this forsaking, or something bad warded off, then it is prescribed in sharee’ah, but if this forsaking will result in something that will increase the evil caused by their innovations, then it is not prescribed.
If you think that not forsaking them will serve a greater interest and that mixing with them and advising them is more useful in opening their hearts to true religion, then there is nothing wrong with not forsaking them, because the aim behind forsaking them is to direct them to the right way and to make them feel that we do not approve of their ways, so that they may come back to true Islam.
If forsaking them will harm the Muslims’ interests and make them cling more firmly to their false ways and put them off the truth, then it is better not to do that, just as the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not forsake ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Ubayy ibn Salool, the leader of the hypocrites, because not forsaking him was more in the interests of the Muslims.
Al-Majmoo’ al-Thameen min Fataawa Ibn ‘Uthaymeen, 1/48
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.
When you create an account, we remember exactly what you've read, so you always come right back where you left off. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and share your thoughts. Sign Up
Hide
Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks