Assalamu alaykum

[TheRationalizer]

Hello to all my brothers and sisters in humanity.

I'm an atheist, ex deist. Looked at Christianity and Islam but in honesty neither of them struck me as the work of a being capable of creating something as wonderful, intricate, and amazing as the universe.

Not really sure what else to say, other than "Hello"

[Rafeeq]

Hello TheRationalizer

Peace to be on you.

Welcome to the forum.

[Perseveranze]

Asaalamu Alaikum,

Welcome to the forums

"Allah, there is no deity but He, the Eternal, The Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists. Neither slumber nor sleep overtake Him. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. Who is he that can intercede with Him except with His permission? He knows what happens to them (His creatures) in this world, and what will happen to them in the hereafter. And they will never encompass anything of His Knowledge except that which He wills. His Kursi (throne) extends over the heavens and the earth, and He feels no fatigue in guarding and preserving them. And He is the Most High, the Most Great"

-Ayat Al-Kursi (Al-Baqara, 2:255)

"In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
Say: He is Allah, the One!
Allah, the eternally Besought of all!
He begetteth not nor was begotten.
And there is none comparable unto Him."

- (Al-Ikhlas, 112:1-4)

Personally, sounds like somone who can create the heavens and the earths

[TheRationalizer]

Personally, sounds like somone who can create the heavens and the earths

It's text claiming to be that, but that doesn't make it true.

My point was that when I read about how protons and electrons interact, and how electrons react with electrons from other atoms, and how these tiny reactions make larger more complex reactions, which create larger reactions, and so on I cannot help but be absolutely amazed. But when I read the Quran....nothing.

It just seems to me that anything capable of creating the universe could make a book which would have an equal impression on me, but it didn't.

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Welcome TheRationalizer

Welcome to the forum and hope you benefit from the forum

[Perseveranze]

It's text claiming to be that, but that doesn't make it true.

My point was that when I read about how protons and electrons interact, and how electrons react with electrons from other atoms, and how these tiny reactions make larger more complex reactions, which create larger reactions, and so on I cannot help but be absolutely amazed. But when I read the Quran....nothing.

It just seems to me that anything capable of creating the universe could make a book which would have an equal impression on me, but it didn't.

Asalaamu Alaikum (peace be unto you),

Firstly, in regards to reading the Quran; You need to realise that it is so much more different when you read the Arabic and understand it in that language, it's really only then when you can really get the feel of something powerful from the Quran. It's quite a mystery even today as to why the Quran of all scriptures is hardest to translate into any other language, like there is currently no extact or accurate translation of it today, but no translation has done it any real justice today.

Here are what some orientalists(non-Muslims) say about it -

"However often we turn to it [the Qur'an] at first disgusting us each time afresh, it soon attracts, astounds, and in the end enforces our reverence... Its style, in accordance with its contents and aim is stern, grand, terrible - ever and anon truly sublime -- Thus this book will go on exercising through all ages a most potent influence." Goethe, quoted in T.P. Hughes' DICTIONARY OF ISLAM, p. 526.

"A work, then, which calls forth so powerful and seemingly incompatible emotions even in the distant reader - distant as to time, and still more so as a mental development - a work which not only conquers the repugnance which he may begin its perusal, but changes this adverse feeling into astonishment and admiration, such a work must be a wonderful production of the human mind indeed and a problem of the highest interest to every thoughtful observer of the destinies of mankind." Dr. Steingass, quoted in T.P. Hughes' DICTIONARY OF ISLAM, pp. 526-527.

"The above observation makes the hypothesis advanced by those who see Muhammad as the author of the Qur'an untenable. How could a man, from being illiterate, become the most important author, in terms of literary merits, in the whole of Arabic literature? How could he then pronounce truths of a scientific nature that no other human being could possibly have developed at that time, and all this without once making the slightest error in his pronouncement on the subject?" Maurice Bucaille, THE BIBLE, THE QUR'AN AND SCIENCE, 1978, p. 125.

"In making the present attempt to improve on the performance of my predecessors, and to produce something which might be accepted as echoing however faintly the sublime rhetoric of the Arabic Koran, I have been at pains to study the intricate and richly varied rhythms which - apart from the message itself - constitute the Koran's undeniable claim to rank amongst the greatest literary masterpieces of mankind... This very characteristic feature - 'that inimitable symphony,' as the believing Pickthall described his Holy Book, 'the very sounds of which move men to tears and ecstasy' - has been almost totally ignored by previous translators; it is therefore not surprising that what they have wrought sounds dull and flat indeed in comparison with the splendidly decorated original." - Arthur J. Arberry, THE KORAN INTERPRETED, London: Oxford University Press, 1964, p. x.

That's just a few, but you get the picture. The Quran today is seen by Arab's(including the Christian/Jewish) as the highest form of Arab Literature in the world today. When you just look at it's literature (ignore the Scientific/Mathematical miracles etc.) Muslims believe no man could've created something like this. Non-Muslims however are still pondering on trying to explain how a man could've created this.

At the time of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh), the Arab people were at the highest peak in their poetic linguistic skills. They used to celebrate whenever a "poet" was born in the family. Yet when Muhammad(pbuh) used to recite the verses of the Quran in all it's powerful manner, it used to bring people to tears(even does today) simply because of it's beauty in sound and speech. Many of the followers of the Prophet(pbuh), a illiterate man, came too him because of his recitations, they were that taken back by it.

And then then the challenge(at various stages in 23 years) came to mankind(including the great linguistics of that time) -

Say: "If the mankind and the jinns were together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another." [Qur'an 17:88]


And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Qur'an) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a surah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah, if you are truthful. [Qur'an 2:23]


And this Qur'an is not such as could ever be produced by other than Allah (Lord of the heavens and the earth), but it is a confirmation of (the revelation) which was before it [i.e. the Taurat (Torah), and the Injeel (Gospel), etc.], and a full explanation of the Book (i.e. laws and orders, etc, decreed for mankind) - wherein there is no doubt from the the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns,and all that exists).
Or do they say: "He (Muhammad(P)) has forged it?" Say: "Bring then a surah (chapter) like unto it, and call upon whomsoever you can, besides Allah, if you are truthful!" [Qur'an 10:37-38]


Or they say, "He (Prophet Muhammad(P)) forged it (the Qur'an)." Say: "Bring you then ten forged surah (chapters) like unto it, and call whomsoever you can, other than Allah (to your help), if you speak the truth!" [Qur'an 11:13]


Or do they say: "He (Muhammad(P)) has forged it (this Qur'an)?" Nay! They believe not! Let them then produce a recital like unto it (the Qur'an) if they are truthful. [Qur'an 52:33-34]

And even the great Arab linguistics at the time couldn't re-produce anything like it. In fact, they began to use the excuse that Muhammad(pbuh) was using "black magic" or was a devil in disguise(people were superstitious in those days) to try and stop people from converting.

It just seems to me that anything capable of creating the universe could make a book which would have an equal impression on me, but it didn't.

I hope I have sort've given insight to that claim. If you did read the Quran in Arabic, the impression you would get from it would be unlike any you've got from any other book. Some translations are good and do give a unique feel, but nothing does justice to the Quran in it's Arabic language, this is seen today by Muslims as a living Miracle.

I finish off with following verses;

"And We reveal (stage by stage) of the Qur'an that which is a healing and a mercy for believers, and to the unjust it causes nothing but loss after loss." -- (17:82)

"So have We made the (Qur'an) easy in thine own tongue, that with it thou mayest give Glad Tidings to the righteous, and warnings to people given to contention." -- (19:97)

"Will they not then ponder on the Qur'an? If it had been from other than Allah they would have found therein much discrepancy." -- (4:82)

And finally, if you would like to know more about the Scientific/Mathematical miracles of the Quran then please visit -

http://www.harunyahya.com/miracles_of_the_quran_01.php

After much research, I can only conclude that this book was given to mankind by non-other then the creator of the Heavans and the Earths. And Muhammad(pbuh) was the sealing of the messages that came before him through the likes of (Jesus(pbuh), Moses(pbuh) etc.).

[TheRationalizer]

Asalaamu Alaikum (peace be unto you),
Firstly, in regards to reading the Quran; You need to realise that it is so much more different when you read the Arabic and understand it in that language, it's really only then when you can really get the feel of something powerful from the Quran.

That just goes to reinforce what I say. It doesn't matter in which language you read about the universe, it is amazing! But it doesmatter in which language you read the Quran?

That's one of the reasons it looks man made to me. Something capable of creating the universe (which is amazing in any language) would be more than capable of writing a book which is amazing in every language. 7th century humans from Arabia unable to speak other languages however would at best be able to write a book which is amazing only in Arabic.

Why the discrepancy?

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Peace be unto you

It doesn't matter in which language you read about the universe, it is amazing! But it doesmatter in which language you read the Quran?

That is because the real/original Quraan is in arabic as it was sent in that language, and even the arabic today doesnt completely match the original arabic from the Quraanic arabic language which is known as Fusha (Classical), and also english or french or other language versions of the Quraan are known as the translations. same goes with the bible.

Also since you have mentioned that it would be amazing that the creator of the universe should be capable of writing the book in every language, then if you look in the Quraan , Allaah your lord and mine mentions how every nation was sent with a messenger i.e every nation including many different languages.

here is the verse : "And verily, We have sent among every Ummah (community, nation) a Messenger (proclaiming): \"Worship Allah (Alone), and avoid (or keep away from) Taghut (all false deities, etc. i.e. do not worship Taghut besides Allah).\" Then of them were some whom Allah guided and of them were some upon whom the straying was justified. So travel through the land and see what was the end of those who denied (the truth)." [Al Quraan 16: 36]

And as muslims we believe in many of the Messengers god sent down to guide mankind

"And We sent not a Messenger except with the language of his people, in order that he might make (the Message) clear for them. Then Allah misleads whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise." [Al Quraan 14 :4]

In total there are 124.000 messengers, although the Quraan mentions 25 by name, the Prophet Adam (as) up to the final messenger Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who was sent not for a nation but for the whole of mankind.

In the Quraan Allaah mentions that he sent a messenger to every nation to warn them
"And there never was a nation but a warner had passed among them." Al Quraan (35.24).

So in conclusion, brother Perseveranze is correct i quote him "Firstly, in regards to reading the Quran; You need to realise that it is so much more different when you read the Arabic and understand it in that language, it's really only then when you can really get the feel of something powerful from the Quran."

I suggest maybe you read the Quran if you have not yet indeed. I hope i have not sounded harsh my intention is to answer your Question to the best of my ability, and hoping someone else can answer you with more information if i have not. If there are parts that do not make sense please feel free to ask.

Peace

[aadil77]

It's text claiming to be that, but that doesn't make it true.

My point was that when I read about how protons and electrons interact, and how electrons react with electrons from other atoms, and how these tiny reactions make larger more complex reactions, which create larger reactions, and so on I cannot help but be absolutely amazed. But when I read the Quran....nothing.

It just seems to me that anything capable of creating the universe could make a book which would have an equal impression on me, but it didn't.

Welcome aboard

Yes atoms and nuclear reactions are amazing, but what you have to remember is that the Quran is a book aimed at people of all times and locations, atom/electrons are very complex they have no relevance in being mentioned in the Quran.

Regarding science the Quran does give a few examples here and there, but most of them are simple examples to be understood by everyone, just simple things to make you ponder at the creation. The Quran is not meant to be a book of science and its not meant to bring you to islam just by showing scientific examples. There are loads of other things amazing about the Quran, like the way the verses flow and rhyme, take a look at this video for example:



Keep asking questions, we'll try and answer as best as possible

[TheRationalizer]

That is because the real/original Quraan is in arabic as it was sent in that language, and even the arabic today doesnt completely match the original arabic from the Quraanic arabic language which is known as Fusha (Classical)

Then I think display of command of a language you know will die out is not a good way to prove divine origin. If god knows the future then god would know that the fusha language would die out and change.

Also since you have mentioned that it would be amazing that the creator of the universe should be capable of writing the book in every language, then if you look in the Quraan , Allaah your lord and mine mentions how every nation was sent with a messenger i.e every nation including many different languages.

No, I said that the creator of the universe would be able to write a book that is beautiful in every language, it's different. A beautiful poem in one language is rubbish in another, yet when the meaning of the words is beautiful that beauty can easily be explained in any language.

I suggest maybe you read the Quran if you have not yet indeed. I hope i have not sounded harsh my intention is to answer your Question to the best of my ability, and hoping someone else can answer you with more information if i have not. If there are parts that do not make sense please feel free to ask.

No, you have not been harsh at all. I have read 3 translations of the Quran. I found it to be a very labourious task, it was very repetitive and I found it very dull too.

[TheRationalizer]

Welcome aboard
Yes atoms and nuclear reactions are amazing, but what you have to remember is that the Quran is a book aimed at people of all times and locations, atom/electrons are very complex they have no relevance in being mentioned in the Quran.

I don't expect to see quantum physics in a 7th century book. However quantum physics is amazing in any language you look at it, and the Quran is not. In fact I didn't even find it remotely interesting, let alone impressive. Everything I saw in the Quran could have been written by a 7th century man.

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Peace

Then I think display of command of a language you know will die out is not a good way to prove divine origin. If god knows the future then god would know that the fusha language would die out and change..

May i ask what faith you follow? Nope the Fusha language hasnt died out, as people today still recite the Quraan the way it was revealed from day 1 and there are millions of muslims i.e humans out there willing to learn the Quraanic arabic today, even so myself. If you see English today, it is not indeed spoken as it was a long time ago either. If God knows the future, the correct term is always "God knows the future" or else he isnt God, or either you have doubt that God exists maybe.

No, I said that the creator of the universe would be able to write a book that is beautiful in every language, it's different. A beautiful poem in one language is rubbish in another, yet when the meaning of the words is beautiful that beauty can easily be explained in any language..

Yes, as a muslim i believe the Quraan is a beautiful book, the language of the Quraan is to be spoken in every culture, which is arabic and only arabic the way it was revealed. Every muslim recites the Quraan in arabic and not in there own language but to understand it they would need to learn it and also use the translations. The muslims five daily prayers are recited in arabic, and not in german, french etc etc. every muslim recites in arabic when praying, or reciting the Quraan weather they be irish or italian, japanese or chinese they read in one language. Arabic however, itself a beautiful language, you should definetly look into it.

No, you have not been harsh at all. I have read 3 translations of the Quran. I found it to be a very labourious task, it was very repetitive and I found it very dull too.

And indeed that is your own opinion of which you wish to mention.

peace

[TheRationalizer]

May i ask what faith you follow?

I'm an atheist.

Nope the Fusha language hasnt died out

Sorry, by "died out and change" I meant that the exact form it was in at the time is now dead and the Fusha today is different. I was commenting on your statement
"the arabic today doesnt completely match the original arabic from the Quraanic arabic language"

I'm sure the creator of the universe could have made sure that the language didn't change (except for new words for new objects like computers etc.)

Yes, as a muslim i believe the Quraan is a beautiful book

Do you believe it is perfect, and therefore cannot possibly be altered in any way which would improve it?

Arabic however, itself a beautiful language, you should definetly look into it.

I've had some beginner's lessons, and I enjoyed it very much.

And indeed that is your own opinion of which you wish to mention.

Light travels at 180,000 miles in 1 second.
That's 5.88 trillion miles in 1 light year (unimaginable).
The closest star is 4.2 light years away.
The furthest star we have seen is 13 billion light years away, so that's 13 billion x 5.88 trillion miles away.
That's BIG!

There are hundreds of billions of galaxies in our universe.
There are hundreds of billions of suns in each galaxy
That's a LOT of stars!

ALL of this is governed by a few simple behaviours such as gravity and the strong/weak force, interacting electrons forming compounds which form life. It is absolutely mind blowing, and yet I am being asked to believe that this was all created by some conscious being and that the Quran is the best it could do?

It just doesn't balance.

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Peace

I'm an atheist..

Okay indeed!

Sorry, by "died out and change" I meant that the exact form it was in at the time is now dead and the Fusha today is different. I was commenting on your statement
"the arabic today doesnt completely match the original arabic from the Quraanic arabic language"

I'm sure the creator of the universe could have made sure that the language didn't change (except for new words for new objects like computers etc.).

And i was replying to you. LOL fusha isnt different today. Fusha is the name for classical arabic. Its the language of the Quraan which is read by muslims all over this world. its not been changed. Yes the creator of the universe made sure the language didnt change, that is why the Quraan is still in its original form.

Do you believe it is perfect, and therefore cannot possibly be altered in any way which would improve it?.

Yes i believe the Quraan is perfect and even perfect is the creator! and has not been altered in any way! I truly believe that 100%.

I've had some beginner's lessons, and I enjoyed it very much..

Awesome!

Light travels at 180,000 miles in 1 second.
That's 5.88 trillion miles in 1 light year (unimaginable).
The closest star is 4.2 light years away.
The furthest star we have seen is 13 billion light years away, so that's 13 billion x 5.88 trillion miles away.
That's BIG!

There are hundreds of billions of galaxies in our universe.
There are hundreds of billions of suns in each galaxy
That's a LOT of stars!

ALL of this is governed by a few simple behaviours such as gravity and the strong/weak force, interacting electrons forming compounds which form life. It is absolutely mind blowing, and yet I am being asked to believe that this was all created by some conscious being and that the Quran is the best it could do?

It just doesn't balance.

And who are you trying to fool? but yourself! You failed to realise that there is a creator of all this right!

The creator is indeed the creator of all these amazing things. Allaah/God is the creator of this world and all that exists within it! The list you mentioned wasnt man made but indeed made by someone who has power!

And Glory be to him for all he asks is for his creation to worship him and even that is of benefit to oneself and not God allmighty!


"Whatsoever is in the heavens and the earth glorifies Allah, and He is the All-Mighty, All-Wise.,His is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth, It is He Who gives life and causes death; and He is Able to do all things. He is the First (nothing is before Him) and the Last (nothing is after Him), the Most High (nothing is above Him) and the Most Near (nothing is nearer than Him). And He is the All-Knower of every thing." [Al Quraan 57: 1-3]

Peace

[جوري]

Hello to all my brothers and sisters in humanity.

I'm an atheist, ex deist. Looked at Christianity and Islam but in honesty neither of them struck me as the work of a being capable of creating something as wonderful, intricate, and amazing as the universe.

Not really sure what else to say, other than "Hello"

aboard.. I must admit that I am a bit perplexed by your choice of forums.. someone who has sojourned and journeyed both and acquired a lifestyle after great introspection has generally moved on from the stage of querying to the stage of fostering self-characterization with like-minded individuals? What are your hopes or rather purpose in joining an Islamic forum?

all the best

[TheRationalizer]

And i was replying to you. LOL fusha isnt different today.

Then I am unsure what you mean by "even the arabic today doesnt completely match the original arabic from the Quraanic arabic language which is known as Fusha"

Yes i believe the Quraan is perfect and even perfect is the creator! and has not been altered in any way! I truly believe that 100%.

So, I assume you are able to speak Arabic?

Awesome!

It was. I had a great teacher, but unfortunately he was a bigot and found it very uncomfortable having a non-Muslim in the class. I attended two other classes where I had no problems, but the method of teaching just wasn't the same. It's a shame, I miss it.

[TheRationalizer]

[FONT="Book Antiqua"][COLOR="DimGray"][SIZE="3"]
aboard.. I must admit that I am a bit perplexed by your choice of forums.. someone who has sojourned and journeyed both and acquired a lifestyle after great introspection has generally moved on from the stage of querying to the stage of fostering self-characterization with like-minded individuals? What are your hopes or rather purpose in joining an Islamic forum?

I like talking to all kinds of people, not just like minded ones. The problem with talking to atheists is that you rarely have a common interest, the only thing you have in common is a lack of an interest rather than an interest. Conversations can be pretty dull :-)

I find religion in general interesting, and having looked into Islam with the prospect of becoming a Muslim it's the religion I know most about.

[جوري]

Muslim it's the religion I know most about.

I highly doubt that-- although I do agree that atheists can be a dull bunch!

all the best

[أحمد]

Sorry, by "died out and change" I meant that the exact form it was in at the time is now dead and the Fusha today is different. I was commenting on your statement
"the arabic today doesnt completely match the original arabic from the Quraanic arabic language"

I'm sure the creator of the universe could have made sure that the language didn't change (except for new words for new objects like computers etc.)

Do you believe it is perfect, and therefore cannot possibly be altered in any way which would improve it?

I've had some beginner's lessons, and I enjoyed it very much.

Light travels at 180,000 miles in 1 second.
That's 5.88 trillion miles in 1 light year (unimaginable).
The closest star is 4.2 light years away.
The furthest star we have seen is 13 billion light years away, so that's 13 billion x 5.88 trillion miles away.
That's BIG!

There are hundreds of billions of galaxies in our universe.
There are hundreds of billions of suns in each galaxy
That's a LOT of stars!

ALL of this is governed by a few simple behaviours such as gravity and the strong/weak force, interacting electrons forming compounds which form life. It is absolutely mind blowing, and yet I am being asked to believe that this was all created by some conscious being and that the Quran is the best it could do?

It just doesn't balance.

Where did you find 4.2 light years for the nearest star? Anyone with basic scientific knowledge, even google would be able to correct that misconception.

If you read this; it'll save you a lot of time with the same old misconceptions on "Islam and science".

Welcome to the forum.

[أحمد]

I highly doubt that-- although I do agree that atheists can be a dull bunch!

all the best

It doesn't mean he knows more than everyone else, it just means he know's about Islam, more than he knows about science, or about anything else. We need not doubt him.