I tried making this thread yesterday, but for some reason it still hasn't shown up here. So here goes again.
I want to ask all the monotheists of this site, why it is that there is so much hate and prejudice toward pagans in their religions? What is so evil or immoral about pagan worship or pagan belief? Why the immediate revulsion at these people, and all the insecurity and paranoia? Nothing sets off a monotheist more than polytheistic practices -- it truly is amazing to me.
And, please don't give me the example from the holy books wherein the worship of idols is a sin against God. That is not a proper explanation, but a mere repetition of verses without any reasoning. Explain why it is so terrible to worship idols, why is it so forbidden?
Happy New Year to everyone!
"So long as you are a slave to the opinions of the many you have not yet approached freedom or tasted its nectar…" -- Julian the Apostate
...And, please don't give me the example from the holy books wherein the worship of idols is a sin against God. That is not a proper explanation, but a mere repetition of verses without any reasoning. Explain why it is so terrible to worship idols, why is it so forbidden?
Happy New Year to everyone!
Idol worshipping is forbidden for a few reasons:
1) It goes against the concept of Tawheed (the oneness of God) in Islam
2) Associates partner's with God (major shirk)
Both accounts are blashphemy in Islam, which is a very big deal
Also it's not hate for pagans as much as it is hate for paganism the ideology.
Someone said to the Prophet, "Pray to God against the idolaters and curse them." The Prophet replied, "I have been sent to show mercy and have not been sent to curse." (Muslim)
I tried making this thread yesterday, but for some reason it still hasn't shown up here. So here goes again.
I want to ask all the monotheists of this site, why it is that there is so much hate and prejudice toward pagans in their religions? What is so evil or immoral about pagan worship or pagan belief? Why the immediate revulsion at these people, and all the insecurity and paranoia? Nothing sets off a monotheist more than polytheistic practices -- it truly is amazing to me.
And, please don't give me the example from the holy books wherein the worship of idols is a sin against God. That is not a proper explanation, but a mere repetition of verses without any reasoning. Explain why it is so terrible to worship idols, why is it so forbidden?
Happy New Year to everyone!
Well as you are asking Monotheists the first reason is obvious. Note that it isn't just that Christians, Jews and Muslims claim that there is one God. They claim that one God is the Same God. The God of Abraham. Polytheists by nature reject the one God. Muslims, Jews and Christians have lived in common areas for generations. Though there are great differences they all share the one God. Islam calls them Ahl al Kitaab(people of the book) as all share revelations from the one God. Polytheists reject God thus are enemies of him in a way that Ahl al Kitaab could never be. Thus they face harsh persecution.
Catch a rainbow and tie the ends together, vale's lily.
Paganism doesn't follow its own logic. It always seems to all but acknowledge the truth of monotheism in some way or other yet still insists on not committing to it. There's always either a single, highest god so high above the other gods that He's like a god to them too, or some kind of creator deity behind the others, or some supreme or ultimate source greater than the gods themselves (like "All-Father" of Norse paganism), or else the different gods are all really one god manifested differently or with different "avatars" or "persons"...none of it seems to be able to get away from the basic fact of an ultimate singularity overseeing or creating all else, but it still insists on compromising and not acknowledging this singularity alone. It's also psychologically a morally dangerous thing. Devotion to multiple sources from the same category or group is not really a feasible thing to do as sincerely as devotion to only one. Worship must be more singular or it just isn't going to be as worshipful.
Last edited by IAmZamzam; 01-01-2011 at 12:18 AM.
Peace be to any prophets I may have mentioned above. Praised and exalted be my Maker, if I have mentioned Him. (Come to think of it praise Him anyway.)
Explain why it is so terrible to worship idols, why is it so forbidden?
Because you are not worshiping God. Idols cannot even help themselves let alone others, of course, some people see idols in a spiritual sense rather than physical.
None of us have seen God, so we find it insulting when God is made in the shape of a human or animal or mixture.
Personally I don't hate them. I simply disagree.
I was looking at myself talking to myself and I realized this conversation...I was having with myself looking at myself was a conversation with myself that I needed to have with myself.
I tried making this thread yesterday, but for some reason it still hasn't shown up here. So here goes again.
I want to ask all the monotheists of this site, why it is that there is so much hate and prejudice toward pagans in their religions? What is so evil or immoral about pagan worship or pagan belief? Why the immediate revulsion at these people, and all the insecurity and paranoia? Nothing sets off a monotheist more than polytheistic practices -- it truly is amazing to me.
And, please don't give me the example from the holy books wherein the worship of idols is a sin against God. That is not a proper explanation, but a mere repetition of verses without any reasoning. Explain why it is so terrible to worship idols, why is it so forbidden?
Happy New Year to everyone!
"pagan" is a word even less agreed on than "atheist". What exactly is a "pagan"? Does it mean polythesitic religion? Does it mean any religion other than the abrahamic religions? Does it include ancestor worship? Does it include non-theistic religions like taoism and confucious?
The reason the abrahamic religions hate on paganism is because it isn't their own religion. Simple as that. They hate pagans for the same reason they hate atheists and each other.
"pagan" is a word even less agreed on than "atheist". What exactly is a "pagan"? Does it mean polythesitic religion? Does it mean any religion other than the abrahamic religions? Does it include ancestor worship? Does it include non-theistic religions like taoism and confucious?
The reason the abrahamic religions hate on paganism is because it isn't their own religion. Simple as that. They hate pagans for the same reason they hate atheists and each other.
The Arabic term Mushrik basically means polytheist, one who ascribes partners to Allaah, or one who worships others along with Allaah, or one who resembles Allaah to His creation. Those people who venerate the tombs, seek intercession through the dead, worship idols and images, worship spirits, venerate trees, seek protection through amulets, practice witchcraft, seek intercession through angels...they are all Mushrikeen (Polytheists).
Judaism, Christianity, and Islaam all claim to be the rightful representatives of the Legacy of Abraham. However, only Islaam is true to the Legacy of Abraham, whereas Judaism and Christianity have deviated from the pure and rigid monotheism of Abraham (Peace be upon him).
The Religion of Islaam is also given the name of Millat Ibraheem (Sect of Abraham) in the Quraan. Abraham was the great prophet who destroyed the idols which his father and his people were devoted to. The tyrant and oppressor Nimrod had him thrown into a blazing furnace, but Allaah protected Abraham, and he emerged unscathed.
Although Christians and Jews claim to follow Abraham, yet they have deviated from his teaching, as they are also guilty of Shirk (Polytheism). They call upon and worship Jesus, believe him to be the son of God, they worship Mary, build places of worship over the graves of the Prophets, seek intercession through the prophets and saints who are dead and cannot help them. They also pray and worship Angels and make images and idols of angels, saints, fairies, prophets, etc.
Even majority of so called "Muslims" are guilty of same thing, by venerating tombs, seeking intercession through dead prophets, saints, and peers. They seek protection through amulets, and make offerings and animal sacrifices in the name of dead saints and peers. They are also Mushrikeen.
However, Saudi Arabia, and possibly a few other Gulf states, are the only purely monotheistic societies left in the world where authentic Islaam is still predominant. But rest of the world is drowning in polytheism.
Even majority of so called "Muslims" are guilty of same thing, by venerating tombs, seeking intercession through dead prophets, saints, and peers. They seek protection through amulets, and make offerings and animal sacrifices in the name of dead saints and peers. They are also Mushrikeen.
However, Saudi Arabia, and possibly a few other Gulf states, are the only purely monotheistic societies left in the world where authentic Islaam is still predominant. But rest of the world is drowning in polytheism.
Calm down and stop talking out of ignorance. How can u say that the "majority" of muslims venerate tombs and make intercession through dead prophets. Try to have some respect to your fellow muslims, most members here are from neither saudi nor gulf countries, like pakistan, india, egypt, malaysia, indonesia and other arab countries. All those muslim countries are al 7amdulillah far far away from shirk practices.
Even though there are some misguided practices in those countries, they are refused by the greater majority of the muslims.
Calm down and stop talking out of ignorance. How can u say that the "majority" of muslims venerate tombs and make intercession through dead prophets. Try to have some respect to your fellow muslims, most members here are from neither saudi nor gulf countries, like pakistan, india, egypt, malaysia, indonesia and other arab countries. All those muslim countries are al 7amdulillah far far away from shirk practices.
Even though there are some misguided practices in those countries, they are refused by the greater majority of the muslims.
Unfortunately you are wrong my brother, because although, alhamdulillaah you personally have condemned the shirk of venerating tombs and seeking intercession through the dead, the majority of "Muslims" are involved in these affairs. You mentioned countries such as Pakistan, India, Egypt, Malaysia, and Indonesia. I regret to inform you that all these countries which you cited are full of tombs which people make regular pilgrimages to. The Indian subcontinent, where the bulk of Muslims live, has hundreds of thousands of these tombs, in virtually every village. In these countries, astrology, witchcraft, soothe-saying, wearing of amulets, and other shirk practices are also quite prevalent.
This is not a suprise, as Allaah سبحانه وتعالى Himself says in the Holy Quraan:
وَمَا يُؤْمِنُ أَكْثَرُهُمْ بِاللّهِ إِلاَّ وَهُم مُّشْرِكُونَ And most of them do not believe in Allaah, except that they are polytheists. [Soorah 12:106]
Meaning that majority of those who believe in Allaah are actually polytheists, because they associate partners alongside with Him.
The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said that the Last Hour would not be established until tribes from his own Ummah would begin to be involved in shirk, and join the other Mushrikeen in worshiping of idols:
The Arabic term Mushrik basically means polytheist, one who ascribes partners to Allaah, or one who worships others along with Allaah, or one who resembles Allaah to His creation. Those people who venerate the tombs, seek intercession through the dead, worship idols and images, worship spirits, venerate trees, seek protection through amulets, practice witchcraft, seek intercession through angels...they are all Mushrikeen (Polytheists).
Judaism, Christianity, and Islaam all claim to be the rightful representatives of the Legacy of Abraham. However, only Islaam is true to the Legacy of Abraham, whereas Judaism and Christianity have deviated from the pure and rigid monotheism of Abraham (Peace be upon him).
The Religion of Islaam is also given the name of Millat Ibraheem (Sect of Abraham) in the Quraan. Abraham was the great prophet who destroyed the idols which his father and his people were devoted to. The tyrant and oppressor Nimrod had him thrown into a blazing furnace, but Allaah protected Abraham, and he emerged unscathed.
Although Christians and Jews claim to follow Abraham, yet they have deviated from his teaching, as they are also guilty of Shirk (Polytheism). They call upon and worship Jesus, believe him to be the son of God, they worship Mary, build places of worship over the graves of the Prophets, seek intercession through the prophets and saints who are dead and cannot help them. They also pray and worship Angels and make images and idols of angels, saints, fairies, prophets, etc.
Even majority of so called "Muslims" are guilty of same thing, by venerating tombs, seeking intercession through dead prophets, saints, and peers. They seek protection through amulets, and make offerings and animal sacrifices in the name of dead saints and peers. They are also Mushrikeen.
However, Saudi Arabia, and possibly a few other Gulf states, are the only purely monotheistic societies left in the world where authentic Islaam is still predominant. But rest of the world is drowning in polytheism.
Hi Jibrael.
The story of Abraham being thrown into a blazing furnace by Nimrod has surely been an inspiration to many to show a heroic spirit in the face of persecution and to show a hatred of the things that God hates: in this case idols.
I don't want to go off topic but I wanted to ask an incidental question. The Bible does not mention this incident. And I cannot find any mention in the Qur'an of the tyrant being named as Nimrod. How do you know that it was Nimrod that threw Abraham into the furnace? Is he identified in the hadith anywhere? If you can find a reference for me or a link to a website then I would be grateful. Thanks.
And, please don't give me the example from the holy books wherein the worship of idols is a sin against God. That is not a proper explanation, but a mere repetition of verses without any reasoning. Explain why it is so terrible to worship idols, why is it so forbidden?
its very reasonable to explain things from the "holy book perspective" if the reason for your disbelief is written in your holy book. it is not possible separate the 2 if your disbelief stems from the holy book.
...desperate for husnul-khitaam...
please make dua that Allah grants me a good end (to my life). please make dua that Allah guides me.
I don't want to go off topic but I wanted to ask an incidental question. The Bible does not mention this incident.
It's mentioned in the Talmud.
And I cannot find any mention in the Qur'an of the tyrant being named as Nimrod. How do you know that it was Nimrod that threw Abraham into the furnace? Is he identified in the hadith anywhere? If you can find a reference for me or a link to a website then I would be grateful. Thanks.
I'm not sure if he's mentioned in the Ahadeeth (I have to research this), but it is mentioned in Ibn Katheer's "Qasas-ul-Anbiyaa" (Stories of the Prophets).
According to me, every non-abrahamic faith is pagan but I seen alot of Muslims saying that the Pre-Islamic Arabs were pagan. Thats apparently incorrect because Arabs claimed to be following the religion of Abraham and the name "Allah" was always attributed to the God of Abraham by Arabs Christians and Jews. So in order to gain the title of "Abrahamic Faith" , you must claim to follow the religion of Abraham so no one can say that Pre-Islamic Arabs were Pagan. Why else do you think the Quran says this: 3:67 Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was one inclining toward truth, a Muslim [submitting to Allah ]. And he was not of the polytheists.
So clearly Quran was telling the Pre-Islamic Arab that their concept of religion of Abraham is wrong, he was a monotheist. So you can't label polytheist religions as pagan, I believe you can only do to those who don't claim to be following the faith of Abraham.
So what I'm saying is that , Pagan is messed-up concept but nonetheless Islam doesn't allow any hate against another religion because there is a danger that they would show hate against Allah and we would be held accountable.
I'm not sure if he's mentioned in the Ahadeeth (I have to research this), but it is mentioned in Ibn Katheer's "Qasas-ul-Anbiyaa" (Stories of the Prophets).
why it is that there is so much hate and prejudice toward pagans in their religions? What is so evil or immoral about pagan worship or pagan belief? Why the immediate revulsion at these people, and all the insecurity and paranoia? Nothing sets off a monotheist more than polytheistic practices -- it truly is amazing to me.
And, please don't give me the example from the holy books wherein the worship of idols is a sin against God. That is not a proper explanation, but a mere repetition of verses without any reasoning. Explain why it is so terrible to worship idols, why is it so forbidden?
The matter is very simple. Monotheists believe God exists and only he is worthy of worship. We Muslims desire that all people worship Allah as he alone deserves it and it is also beneficial for us humans to do so (otherwise there is punishment in the hereafter). Most people wouldn't have insecurity, paranoia, revulsion at them. I don't, rather I feel pity and wish guidance upon them instead (they are destined for eternal hell if they carry on how they are, so why should I feel anything but pity?).
"pagan" is a word even less agreed on than "atheist". What exactly is a "pagan"? Does it mean polythesitic religion? Does it mean any religion other than the abrahamic religions? Does it include ancestor worship? Does it include non-theistic religions like taoism and confucious?
The reason the abrahamic religions hate on paganism is because it isn't their own religion. Simple as that. They hate pagans for the same reason they hate atheists and each other.
While I won't presume to speak for the Muslims here Christians don't hate Pagans, Polytheists nor Atheists. At times there have been persecutions of these groups they were done reflexively to protect a Christian nation untited under a set belief system.
While I won't presume to speak for the Muslims here Christians don't hate Pagans, Polytheists nor Atheists. At times there have been persecutions of these groups they were done reflexively to protect a Christian nation untited under a set belief system.
I really don't think anyone spends their time thinking about pagans.. well at least not as much as atheists preoccupy themselves with religion. My personal introduction to paganism was through that movie 'the wickerman' and perhaps a few rebellious goths wannabe witches wannabe rebels back in middle and high school.. sort of dies out when you're filling out your college applications though..
peace
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
I really don't think anyone spends their time thinking about pagans.. well at least not as much as atheists preoccupy themselves with religion. My personal introduction to paganism was through that movie 'the wickerman' and perhaps a few rebellious goths wannabe witches wannabe rebels back in middle and high school.. sort of dies out when you're filling out your college applications though..
peace
Indeed. Real life has a way of eliminating fanciful rebellions. There are 0 Goth CEOs of any corporation.
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