Sorry for the different font sizes, I didnt pay much attention to the grammar and presentation, but hopefully everything is clear! Thanks
Hi,
So I was studying some emrbyology for my exams and I was interested in the religous view on it. I have read a few things about Islam and Science before too. After some googling I came across Keith L.Moore and T.W Sadler, who happened to be a few familiar authors. I came across this page:
Sorry,i cant post links as I'm new, but if you go on google.com and type in 'Keith L Moore Islam' and click on the first link I think, its from the website 'name of anti-Islamic site removed' and titled 'scientific errors and myths about embryology' ( along those lines)
Please have a read through the above page and if you could answer the following questions I would really appreciate it.
What is this site all about? Im really confused because it doesn't seem to be taking some things seriously( e.g. its conclusion about Jews are better than Muslims and how it mentions that everyone was wrong in comparison to modern science). Like what is this site's purpose, is what it is saying true or false?
And What about their interpretation of that Quranic verse( about how the muscles are formed before the bones, but the Quran contradicts it, something along those lines)? This site is kinda confusing to me, and I just wanted some clarification. And then it goes onto talk about the 5 stages or so of development ( about the blood clots etc), is that correct? I read that Zakir Naik had a widely publicised debate( which he supposedly won) with Dr. William Campbell on this issue. It states that the 5 stages of development were common knowledge prior to the revelation of the Quran. But I dont think that is true, and the site seems to me to be a hate attack against Islam. But I was just wanting some clarification thats why.
And the fact that it goes onto mention that everyone was is wrong in comparison to modern science( which is what Dr Campbell said apparently), I mean what is this site trying to say it is sending very mixed messages!? Was this all discussed in their widely publicised debate? I havent seen it, but I have heard that Naik won, from reading about it.
Thanks
Sorry for the different font sizes, I didnt pay much attention to the grammar and presentation, but hopefully everything is clear! Thanks
Welcome to the forum and may all of your questions be answered.
I will just mention a few things about the site you visited. The site does preach and teach a religion that is considerably different from Islam.
Such a site will not emphasize any teaching that will support Islam. Science is a field that is very much open to interpretation of the results. while it is true, science is non biased and deals with that which can be measured, qualified and replicated. It must always be understood that the results only prove that which was measured, Any extension of scientific validation beyond what was measured and verified comes into the realm of opinion, theory and conjecture.
Never expect to get unbiased results from a site whose goal is to discredit a religious belief.
YusufNoor liked this post
Ok thanks for the replies but Im confused a bit, I'm assuming from what you both said the site is false. And how they mention ' The Quran gives the IMPRESSION' that .... they are not being conclusive there IMO. Is there any more info you people would like to add?
If Im being honest, I've been going through tough time lately and have had all sorts of waswas going through my head, to the point where I was questioning my own religion and I wouldn't believe one website and was having to check about the bible etc, to see what they say( But I haven't spent much time as I have soo much revision to do lol). But yeh I was reading some other posts about how the Bible has no textual integrity, the Torah was corrupted by the Jews, and then I was getting confused seeing this website. So from what you people have said it has cleared some things up for me. How good is Zakir Naik in terms of all of his evidences that he provides and how he debates with other religion's major people? I do believe in Islam firmly, its when sites like these pop up and then create doubts etc. I need to have more faith inshAllah, what advice would you give in making me a stronger believer?
Is there any good sources where it explains all the differences between islam and christianity etc?
JazakAllah Khair
And Also please dont mind me asking this, but how do you all remain firm in the faith of Islam? I never want to have doubts like this ever again once this has been cleared up, I want to accept Islam firmly and understand all of its scientific truths etc, so what tips would you give me to remain steadfast in my belief?
Peace Saffy786,
Here are refutations to both. I still don't get why someone is using the plagurism accussation, despite it being refuted many times, someone is desperate.
Anyways, regarding the bones before flesh accussation, please read this - http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/al..._by_islamtoday
Regarding the embroylogy plagurism accusation (refuted heavily), please read this (it's a long read but after you'll hopefully appreciate the miracle even more) - http://www.quranicstudies.com/articl...mbryology.html
format_quote Originally Posted by Saffy786
I doubt all of us hold a firm faith all the time. We sometimes let our guard drop. I think you should study Islam from the beginning. Start by learning Arabic, so you will be able to read AND understand the Qur'an.
Check this website. Gives you the list of anti-Islamic websites:
Click here!
Is there any good sources where it explains all the differences between islam and christianity etc?
Religions
^ It's good but lacks in-depth analysis.
for those of us who spent much of our early years as Christians and finding reason to no longer follow it, we have a very strong incentive for remaining steadfast. Once you experienced the rest you KNOW which is best. Go to the New Muslim section and read through the sticky thread of the stories of reverts. that may give you some motivation.format_quote Originally Posted by Saffy786
Allahu Akbar mashAllah so that means everything in that article is false? I always hear about these dodgy websites but it was only till late that I've started paying attention to all this, I wont make this mistake again!! insha AllahHas there ever been any person who has actually disproved/refuted anything from Islam? I dont think so Alhamdulillah
Yeh I suppose it must happen to everyone who was born into Islam. But some dont really pay much attention, whilst others do, everyone is different I guess. Depends on your personality types to begin, what sort of a thinker you are etc. But I'm sure everyone who is in doubt will sit down and think about it one day Insha Allah
Yeh I suppose it must happen to everyone who was born into Islam. But some dont really pay much attention, whilst others do, everyone is different I guess. Depends on your personality types to begin, what sort of a thinker you are etc. But I'm sure everyone who is in doubt will sit down and think about it one day Insha Allahformat_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Asalaamu Alaikum,format_quote Originally Posted by Saffy786
You remind me of myself a few months ago. I was so close to leaving Islam, because all I ever did was go on the same websites your talking about right now and believe what they said. And if I'm honest, I was pretty much going to just end it there, but there was this thought at the back of my head that kept annoying me and bugging me. This is something that I had trouble ignoring -
1. Muslims believe the Quran is the word of God and so cannot have any inaccuracies within it. No Muslim in the world today will ever follow Islam if they think the Quran has an error in it, not a single one. The Quran is believed to be a everlasting miracle.
2. Keeping the above in mind, Islam is today the fastest growing religion in the world. Fair enough, but the issue is more serious when the people that are reverting to Islam are the really intelligent and smart people, like the Doctors, Scientists etc. And many of them revert because of the Quran's miracle, in particular the Scientific one. These intelligent people saw something that I wasn't seeing, they are obviously far more intelligent then I am, so why are they turning to Islam? Apart from Islam, what other religion is out there in which people turn to it for it's Scientific accuracy and proofs?
3. Around 1.6-1.7 billion people are Muslims today, amongst them are very smart people who study the Quran to the very depths. Do they see a truth in something that I do not?
4. Islam is no the easiest religion to practice, the amount of devout followers it has is unmatched. I mean, praying 5 times a day, no drinking/smoking, no sex before marraige etc. This is alot to give up, even if it does make a person a far better character. Yet I see people give up all their wealth and fame for Islam, what is going on here?
Just these kind of questions were really bugging me, to the point that I said I'm going to give it one more try and really go as deep in as I can, because if this is the truth I want to know. I mean, I wasn't going through a hard time or anything, my life was normal, I wasn't in the state of mind where I ask "whats the purpose of life" or anything (at some point I didn't even care if evolution was true or not), yet there was something about Islam that just made me want to think about life more and ask the questions I've not really cared about for the whole of my life.
Anyways, I gave up alot of my time and for months studied the Quran and Islam from the depths. I tried to look at all the refutations against Islam and this time I did something different (then before) ;
1. I looked at where the refuters were getting their sources from.
2. I looked at "what's Islam's response to this?"
3. What do Non-Muslim intilllects say about this (if they have even commented on it or not).
I tried to be as objective as possible and in the end, I was left doubtless. I hate to have to remember how gullable and close minded I was before, but I am so thankful to my Creator now and know I'll never leave Him again.
In conclusion; no one and I mean no one, has successfully come close to refuting Islam or the Quran. The Quran in particular, is something which still amazes even the Non-Muslims till this very day, especially the intellects who have shown great favouritism to it's absolute mystery. Even the life of our beloved Prophet(pbuh), no one's even been able to refute how one day a illiterate man could suddenly become the author of a book with the highest piece of Arabic literature known to man today, a Book with so many different miraclous and mystical aspects to it. How could this happen?
You know what the historian says when someone asks them, "was Muhammad(pbuh) a prophet"? They just say, "I don't know", as simple as that. And the interesting part is, they won't ever tick off the Divine intervention part, in fact they believe there's a far higher chance that there was a divine intervention than him being an imposter, but they won't ever give a definite answer since they aren't Muslims, but atleast they remain truthful when they say they can't explain how the Prophet(pbuh) was able to do what he did. What does that tell you about this all? It's the same about the Quran too lol, Scientists won't comment on it, they can't refute it so they stay away from it, however some top Scientists do make a book showing favouritism in it's divine origin.
Anyways, only Allah(swt) knows whats in my heart and how firm my belief is. But that's how it was for me, if I see something today that causes doubt i'll heavily research it from every angle. My advice to you is to do the same, use your intellect aswell, some common sense, don't fall into the trick that amatuer website's use. There's enough signs and proofs for it's validity, enough for someone who's sincere and looking for the truth to see it.
ps. You might find this interesting to read.
Last edited by Perseveranze; 01-15-2011 at 06:18 PM.
MashAllah you have made such an uplifting and great post. There is so much relief from reading this post to me Alhamdulillah, I will hopefully try to find the time to read some of these articles after my exams, but right now I must concentrate on preparation. I had spent the last week really not being productive at all, always thinking about this like you've mentioned, but now I must focus and Insha Allah, Allah( SWT) will help me. And it's nice to know that someone else was in the same position as me too.format_quote Originally Posted by Perseveranze
Hopefully this thread will remain live so that some other people could contribute their thoughts if they so wish.
JazakAllah once again
Btw have u heard of this arabian person called 'Mondher Sfar' he wrote a book apparently called 'In search of the original Koran', what was that all about?format_quote Originally Posted by Perseveranze
Asalaamu Alaikum,format_quote Originally Posted by Saffy786
lol this guy, I tried doing some searches on him and hardly anything has come up. His book isn't popular, he's never been taken seriously by anyone (I've just seen quotes on Christian missionary websites, the fact that most anti-islam websites have no mention of him just show the redicilous claims he must've made in the book).
I havn't read the book, so don't know what's in it. But I did get this quote -
"Reveals that there is no historical, or even theological, basis for the orthodox view that Muhammad or his earliest followers intended the Koran to be treated as the inviolable word of God."
No wonder no one has taken him seriously. If you read the Quran, the life of the Prophet(pbuh) and the Hadiths, there's more then enough overwhelming proof that the Quran was to be treated as the word of God. Why on earth would Muslims have gone through so much trouble to ensure people memorize it and write it down? Why is the Quran handled with utmost respect when holding it and reading it? Why has not another single intellectual or anyone that's significantly known for scholarly works or anything made any mention of this before? Why didn't Muslims, memorize hadiths? Anyways, stuff like this should not bother you, it's almost like insulting your own intelligence if you gave people like this any attention, such baseless and stupid claims, that not even Islam haters have acknowledged, shows how desperate for attention some people are.
Edit: This made me laugh;
"The revealed text should not be equated with the perfect text of the original celestial Koran; which was believed to exist only in heaven and to be fully known only by God."
Lol.
format_quote Originally Posted by Saffy786
some good islamic websites that may suit your needs:
http://www.islamicinvitationcentre.com/index.htm
http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/home
http://www.amjaonline.com/
http://islam101.net/
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/
whats more important, however, is to affirm your shahada. Shahada is not just proclaiming that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad SAW is His messenger, you really have to believe in it (eeman).
Everything else flows from shahada.
If you have firm shahada you would know that christianity is false religion because it teaches to believe in jesus (as) and worship him as god. Whatever mentioned in the bible do not matter anymore.
Out of curiosity, In the original article I had posted the google link for, what is their discussion about Ibn Qayyim Al Jawziyya all about, have they wrote something dodgy there? I was interested but dont have the time to search it all up so dont mind lolformat_quote Originally Posted by Perseveranze
and this just takes the biscuit lol:
"Scientific errors related to embryology are contained in the Koran. In 86:6-7 the Koran says, "He is created from a drop emitted- Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs". This echoes the scientific error of Hippocrates who believe semen originates from all the fluid in the body, starting from the brain down the spinal chord, before passing through the kidneys and finally the testicles into the penis. (Hippocratic Writings, Penguin Classics, 1983, p. 317)"
How can they even say that they have no way interpreted it correctly, and assumed that one mans interpretation is fine lol
format_quote Originally Posted by Saffy786
see;
http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/showthread.php?t=2602
As for the proper definition of sulb in the context of this verse [of surah Tariq 88:6-7], it is ‘loins’ and NOT backbone. Shaykh `Abd al-Wahhâb al-Turayrî of IslamToday.com writes:The word “sulb” should not necessarily be translated as “backbone”. This word has many possible meanings and backbone is only one of them. It is also quite commonly used to mean the loins of a man. This is how it is used elsewhere in the Qur’ân. Allah says: “Prohibited to you (for marriage) are…wives of your sons proceeding from your loins (aslâb, the plural of sulb).” [Sûrah al-Nisâ’: 23] There can be no problem with sperm coming out from the area of a man's loins.
Dictionaries define Sulb as Loins/private parts :
We refer the reader to p.226 of The Concise Oxford English Arabic Dictionary. The English word ‘loins’ is translated as ‘sulb’. (source: http://www.amazon.com/Concise-Oxford.../dp/0198643217 )
We refer the reader to p.231 of Hippocrene Standard Dictionary Arabic-English English-Arabic by John Wortabet, in which once again, the only definition of the word loins is ‘sulb’. (source: http://www.amazon.com/Hippocrene-Dic...6200382&sr=1-1)
It is a simple matter of driving down to Barnes and Noble or another bookstore to verify these definitions. But if the reader is too lazy to do that, here is an online reference. On p.146 of An English and Arabic Dictionary by Joseph Catafago, notice that the only definition given for the word ‘salbi’ is ‘proceeding from the loins’. (click here to view: http://books.google.com/books?id=42o...=5&ct =result)
Here is another online reference: on p.791 of A Comprehensive Persian English Dictionary: Including the Arabic Words, we see that the first definition of the word ‘sulbi’ is ‘proceeding from the loins’. (click here: http://books.google.com/books?id=knA...um=4&ct=result)
Last edited by - Qatada -; 01-16-2011 at 03:34 PM.
Asalaamu Alaikum,format_quote Originally Posted by Saffy786
Watch this for the backbone clarification -
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