Hadith rejection and "Ma malakat aymanukum"

[Al-Zaara]

Assalamu alaykum, brothers and sisters


I have recently encountered a young man who refers himself to be a "Quranist" or "hadith rejector".

First off, he rejects hadiths, so yes, I am aware that issue is bigger and needs to be addressed. But his main subject of interest was regarding that he claimed these words in the Qur'an (more specific Surah An-Nisa verse/ayah 24 and 25) that we understand to refer to slaves, can actually also refer to be that it gives you "permission to have girlfriends/boyfriends".

Anyways, I was wondering if you know of any resources that I could give to him regarding the discussion of the meaning of "ma malakat aynukum" or to refute "hadith rejectors"?

I apologize if there is a thread like this already. JazakAllahu khayrun and may Allah subhana wa ta'ala keep us steadfast in the Deen, keep us on the Right Path and not let our nafs win! Amiin.

[Insaanah]

sister,

Firstly, it's very nice to meet you and see another oldie return. I hope you'll stay around inshaa'Allah.

I'm sure others will be able to help you with more scholarly answers, or direct you to some good resources, but you can show him that his idea holds no weight using the Qur'an itself.

Surah al-Maa'idah (ayah 5), shows girlfriends/boyfriends are not allowed, so it cannot mean that:

Sahih International
This day [all] good foods have been made lawful, and the food of those who were given the Scripture is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them. And [lawful in marriage are] chaste women from among the believers and chaste women from among those who were given the Scripture before you, when you have given them their due compensation, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse or taking [secret] lovers. And whoever denies the faith - his work has become worthless, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.

Muhsin Khan
Made lawful to you this day are At-Tayyibat [all kinds of Halal (lawful) foods, which Allah has made lawful (meat of slaughtered eatable animals, etc., milk products, fats, vegetables and fruits, etc.). The food (slaughtered cattle, eatable animals, etc.) of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) is lawful to you and yours is lawful to them. (Lawful to you in marriage) are chaste women from the believers and chaste women from those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) before your time, when you have given their due Mahr (bridal money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage), desiring chastity (i.e. taking them in legal wedlock) not committing illegal sexual intercourse, nor taking them as girl-friends. And whosoever disbelieves in the Oneness of Allah and in all the other Articles of Faith [i.e. His (Allah's), Angels, His Holy Books, His Messengers, the Day of Resurrection and Al-Qadar (Divine Preordainments)], then fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be among the losers.

Pickthall
This day are (all) good things made lawful for you. The food of those who have received the Scripture is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them. And so are the virtuous women of the believers and the virtuous women of those who received the Scripture before you (lawful for you) when ye give them their marriage portions and live with them in honour, not in fornication, nor taking them as secret concubines. Whoso denieth the faith, his work is vain and he will be among the losers in the Hereafter.

Yusuf Ali
This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time,- when ye give them their due dowers, and desire chastity, not lewdness, nor secret intrigues if any one rejects faith, fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).

Shakir
This day (all) the good things are allowed to you; and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them; and the chaste from among the believing women and the chaste from among those who have been given the Book before you (are lawful for you); when you have given them their dowries, taking (them) in marriage, not fornicating nor taking them for paramours in secret; and whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.

Dr. Ghali
Today the good things are made lawful for you, and the food of the ones to whom the Book was brought is lawful to you, and your food is made lawful to them. And (so) are believing women in wedlock, and in wedlock women of (the ones) to whom the Book was brought even before you when you have brought them their rewards in wedlock, other than in fornication, neither taking them to yourselves as mates (i.e., girl-friends). And whoever disbelieves in belief, (i.e., the religion) then his deed has been frustrated and in the Hereafter he is among the losers.

Secondly, looking at the verses he quoted, it says that all married women are forbidden except those whom your right hands possess. So if we substitute the word girlfriend for what your right hands possess, this means that all married women are forbidden, except your girlfriend. Which implies that if your girlfriend was married, she would be an exception to other married women. BUT, that would mean she is being unfaithful to her husband, and you are having an affair and approaching zina, which the Qur'an declares is a big sin. You can see the contradiction here quite easily. Doesn't make sense, does it? This is what happens when you interpret the Qur'an according to your own whims and desires.

The next verse he quoted says : "And whoso is not able to afford to marry free, believing women, let them marry from the believing maids whom your right hands possess..." Here, from the context of the verse, it is clear that what your right hand possesses, is not free, because it refers to those who cannot afford to marry free women. The only people that were not free, were slaves/captives.

Also thirdly, if you look where the words "what your right hand possesses" come elsewhere in the Qur'an, and substitute the word girlfriend in there, it makes no sense whatsoever.

That alone shoud be enough, but still, to back that up, we have the ahadeeth. The hadeeth are narrated by those who saw or heard the prophet (peace be upon him) say something. Their accounts are verified, each persons truthfulness, memory, character and accuracy are verified, and we know which people it was transmitted via. Anyone who is known to have lied even once in his lifetime, any hadeeth narrated from him are rejected. No other literature of the era is recorded with such accuracy. It is the highly righteous and knowledgeable scholars who have checked the hadeeth, and ensured that every small detail of the Prophets life is preserved for us to follow.

The onus is on him, to bring his reliable sources, that show that it means girlfriend and that this is how the Prophet and his companions understood it.

[Muhaba]

^Great response.

also, in Surah Nur Allah says that the fornicatoress and the fornicator are both to be lashed 100 lashes.

24:2
The [unmarried] woman or [unmarried] man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah , if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.

how can the verse about "those whom your right hand possess" be reconsiled with this one if you define "those whom your right hand possess" as girlfriend/boyfriend? According to this verse, sexual relations outside marriage are forbidden and the one guilty of it is to be lashed 100 times.

[Al-Zaara]

Wa alaykum assalam, sister Insaanah

Thank you for your kind words, I've browsed the forum quite a bit now and seen your posts, mashaAllah, I'm very impressed. I'm glad there are members like you who are active. JazakiAllah khayr for your detailed response, very much appreciated and helpful!

WRITER, a very good point mashaAllah, jazakAllah khayr for your contribution!

[MissK]

Insaanah, each translation that you mentioned uses a different word to refer to "girlfriend." One must admit, there is a huge difference between a girlfriend and a concubine, a lover and a mate. In addition, it says do not take them in secret. What is so secret about having a girlfriend or boyfriend, spending time and getting to know them in public settings, allowing your parents to know about this relationship. I don't think the verses you have quoted in any way fully settle this matter.

Furthermore, as for the hadith, I too have not decided just how much of the hadith's authenticity I believe in either. While I don't reject hadith all together, I do ask where is God's promise to protect and conserve this hadith as he promised to do with Qur'an? It doesn't exist and therefore we are trusting man to deliver messages that are hundreds of years old.

“[The Quran 45:6] These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?

[MissK]

^Great response.

also, in Surah Nur Allah says that the fornicatoress and the fornicator are both to be lashed 100 lashes.

24:2
The [unmarried] woman or [unmarried] man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah , if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.

how can the verse about "those whom your right hand possess" be reconsiled with this one if you define "those whom your right hand possess" as girlfriend/boyfriend? According to this verse, sexual relations outside marriage are forbidden and the one guilty of it is to be lashed 100 times.

Why do people always discuss sexual relations and adultery when referring to girlfriend/boyfriend relationships? It is very much possible to have a relationship and not have sex, therefore there would be no need for lashings.

[جوري]

Why do people always discuss sexual relations.

How does 'most' and 'always' reconcile with your other post where you appear quite exasperated when someone made a reference which you referred to as a generalization and ignorance?

[Aprender]

Why do people always discuss sexual relations and adultery when referring to girlfriend/boyfriend relationships? It is very much possible to have a relationship and not have sex, therefore there would be no need for lashings.

Because it's commonly accepted in my culture at least that if you're in a relationship with someone you'll most likely end up being intimate with one another. The try it before you buy it method which sometimes results in pregnancy, STDs and other issues. It's rare for a couple that are so in love with each other to not even be tempted to have sex and actually wait until marriage. Many people aren't at all religious and don't care either way.

Hence:
"And do not approach unlawful sexual intercourse. Indeed, it is ever an immorality and is evil as a way." [17:32]

[Aprender]

While I don't reject hadith all together, I do ask where is God's promise to protect and conserve this hadith as he promised to do with Qur'an? It doesn't exist and therefore we are trusting man to deliver messages that are hundreds of years old.

This is the most recent argument I've heard against the hadith from Quranists too. For me, I haven't studied the science of hadith preservation so I cannot comment on this. But if this is the argument they're going with then I wonder about the preservation of history all together if that's the case. We're trusting man to deliver historical accounts that are centuries old. We should just reject it all then.

[Insaanah]

Insaanah, each translation that you mentioned uses a different word to refer to "girlfriend."

The Muhsin Khan translation I quoted in the post uses the word girlfriend.

One must admit, there is a huge difference between a girlfriend and a concubine, a lover and a mate.

Not really. If not in the context of a lawful marriage, they all boil down to the same thing.

In addition, it says do not take them in secret. What is so secret about having a girlfriend or boyfriend, spending time and getting to know them in public settings, allowing your parents to know about this relationship. I don't think the verses you have quoted in any way fully settle this matter.

It doesn't have to be secret for it to be wrong. To be committed in public is equally wrong:

Say: the things that my Lord hath indeed forbidden are: shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning of partners to Allah, for which He hath given no authority; and saying things about Allah of which ye have no knowledge. (7:33)

Also:

Say, "Come, I will recite what your Lord has prohibited to you. [He commands] that you not associate anything with Him, and to parents, good treatment, and do not kill your children out of poverty; We will provide for you and them. And do not approach immoralities - what is apparent of them and what is concealed. And do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden [to be killed] except by [legal] right. This has He instructed you that you may use reason." (6:151)

Here it doesn't simply tell us not to commit immoralities, but not even to approach them. Here Allah didn’t say: do not commit immorality or do not commit illegal sexual intercourse. He said do not approach it (be that from near or far), do not come close to whatever makes you fall in this sin. Taking a girlfriend/boyfriend is one of the means to falling into fornication.

In Islam, when something is forbidden, then all avenues which lead to that are forbidden. So, not only is it forbidden to drink alcohol, but to buy it, sell it, transport it, produce it, pour it etc (Jami` at-Tirmidhi 1295)

Similarly, illegal sexual intercourse has been forbidden, and so is anything that might lead to that. That is why there are instructions on lowering one's gaze, women covering themselves and not displaying their adornments or stamping their feet, not softening their voices in front of men who are not their mahrams, a man and woman who are not married to each other or are not mahrams, are not allowed to be alone together, women and men must not mix freely and take girlfirends/boyfriends, and women's walis are responsible for finding them suitable spouses, enquiring about them, and marrying their wards to suitable proposers if she agrees.

Also remember we have two sources of law that go together, hand in hand, the Qur'an and the sunnah as recorded in the authentic ahadeeth.

Furthermore, as for the hadith, I too have not decided just how much of the hadith's authenticity I believe in either.

Before the discussion can be continued, we need to establish the sources of law Islam is based upon, and their importance.

The links are here are very informative. Please read them:

http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...ml#post1542902

“[The Quran 45:6] These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?

Interesting that the only Arabic word that's been kept in this translation is hadeeth. Presumably whoever did this translation has retained the word hadeeth wherever it occurs.

The following verses are worth noting then:

Then leave Me alone with those who reject this Hadeeth: by degrees We shall punish them from directions they perceive not. (68:44)

..It is no invented Hadeeth.. (12:111, part)

[MissK]

How does 'most' and 'always' reconcile with your other post where you appear quite exasperated when someone made a reference which you referred to as a generalization and ignorance?

I'm not 100% sure which post you're referring to but either way, please allow me to correct myself as my question may have appeared to be a generalization and I would hate for you to feel that it reflected even the most minute possibility of ignorance on my part. So, here I will try again: Why do SO MANY PEOPLE THAT I ENCOUNTER discuss sexual relations when referring to girlfriend/boyfriend relationships?

[Insaanah]

Why do SO MANY PEOPLE THAT I ENCOUNTER discuss sexual relations when referring to girlfriend/boyfriend relationships?

This has already been answered in my post, and in sister Aprenders' post, because it is the easiest thing that leads to sexual relations.

[MissK]

a man and woman who are not married to each other or are not mahrams, are not allowed to be alone together, women and men must not mix freely and take girlfirends/boyfriends, and women's walis are responsible for finding them suitable spouses, inquiring about them, and marrying their wards to suitable proposers if she agrees.

First, just because you have a boyfriend/or girlfriend does not mean that you will be alone with them.

Second, I would really like to know what you and anyone else who holds this belief would recommend for the numerous reverts (from the West, in particular) who have no "Wali." I can use myself as an example. My mother and father along with everyone else in my family are Christian and American. It is not part of our current culture to find a spouse for our children. So no one is out looking for someone for me nor do they have any desire to and if they did, they'd be looking for a "good Christian man". Furthermore, my parents and I don't even live in the same country and only God knows when we will live near each other again. Who should serve as my Wali? Or should I just marry any one of the random Arab men that approach me on a daily basis, knowing little about his past family, etc? How does one in this situation or one similar get to know someone before committing to marriage?

Or I can just stay single forever. Although last time I checked, this wasn't recommended. And if marriage is half my deen as hadith tells us, then I really have my work cut out for me!

Or should we take into consideration, changes in time, place and culture; use our minds to make sound decisions as Islam instructs us? I apologize if I sound sarcastic or bitter in any way, but I find that these words are often said but many people do not take into consideration one's individual circumstances or again, the changes that have taken place in our world since the hadith were recorded.

[MissK]

This has already been answered in my post, and in sister Aprenders' post, because it is the easiest thing that leads to sexual relations.

Could it be fair to say that there is a difference between simply having a bf/gf, and having one with the intent to become better acquainted in hopes of marriage?

These relationships lead to sexual relations when they occur in the wrong environment and with the wrong intent.

[MissK]

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<br>
This has already been answered in my post, and in sister Aprenders' post, because it is the easiest thing that leads to sexual relations.</font></span>

<br><br>Could it be fair to say that there is a difference between simply having a bf/gf, and having one with the intent to become better&nbsp;acquainted&nbsp;in hopes of marriage?<br><br>These relationships lead to sexual relations when they occur in the wrong environment and with the wrong intent.&nbsp;

Because it's commonly accepted in my culture at least that if you're in a relationship with someone you'll most likely end up being intimate with one another. The try it before you buy it method which sometimes results in pregnancy, STDs and other issues. It's rare for a couple that are so in love with each other to not even be tempted to have sex and actually wait until marriage. Many people aren't at all religious and don't care either way.

You're right. Many people are not religious and many don't care. By the same token, many people ARE religious and their chastity is extremely important to them so....what about them?

[جوري]

I'm not 100% sure which post you're referring to but either way, please allow me to correct myself as my question may have appeared to be a generalization and I would hate for you to feel that it reflected even the most minute possibility of ignorance on my part. So, here I will try again: Why do SO MANY PEOPLE THAT I ENCOUNTER discuss sexual relations when referring to girlfriend/boyfriend relationships?

Not a question of content rather needless convolution at any rate I have lost interest and quick glancing over some of your posts -I am confidant though that someone will respond to your queries undoubtedly to your dislike!


Best,

[MissK]

This is the most recent argument I've heard against the hadith from Quranists too. For me, I haven't studied the science of hadith preservation so I cannot comment on this. But if this is the argument they're going with then I wonder about the preservation of history all together if that's the case. We're trusting man to deliver historical accounts that are centuries old. We should just reject it all then.

I don't reject all hadith nor do I accept it all. I don't reject all historical accounts nor do I accept them all. For example, American history would have us believe that the Pilgrims and the Native Americans were the best of friends. Hmmmm...something about them stealing my ancestors land and then all of them feasting together just doesn't add up to me.

I'm still learning a lot about Hadith. From what I learned, I have to question the authenticity of some of them which are considered sound as many of them go against the teachings of the Quran, or at minimum, the spirit of the Quran. This is why I ask so many questions about them. So my current solution is to go back to the Qur'an as the final word, use reason, and keep praying about it. If you do study the preservation of its collection, ranking, and preservation, you may have some questions too (or maybe not :-).

[Aamer]

99% of Quranist Muslims do NOT take the verse mentioned to mean sex with boyfriend/girlfriend is permissible. It's a stretch to say the least. Quranist thought is logic based. Sex before marriage goes against logic based on Allah's words.

[Aamer]

This is the most recent argument I've heard against the hadith from Quranists too. For me, I haven't studied the science of hadith preservation so I cannot comment on this. But if this is the argument they're going with then I wonder about the preservation of history all together if that's the case. We're trusting man to deliver historical accounts that are centuries old. We should just reject it all then.

There are many verses in Quran which make it clear that we are not allowed to use any other teachings outside of Quran. But first, let's just use logic. The Quran was completed during the life of Prophet Muhammad. If Allah or Muhammad intended Hadith to be a supplementary book to accompany Quran, wouldn't Prophet Muhammad have made his followers write down and memorize his sayings and actions like he did Quran? Why did a guy named Bukhari have to come 300 years later to complete the religion? Quran says follow Allah and his messenger... Not Allah and Bukhari. Peace!

[Indian Bro]

As-salamu alaykum,

The following answer is based on my understanding of the deen.

The Qur'aan clearly tells us:

In Surah An-Nisa verse 59


O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

In Surah Al-Ma'idah verse 92


And obey Allah and obey the Messenger and beware. And if you turn away - then know that upon Our Messenger is only [the responsibility for] clear notification.

In Surah An-Nur verse 54

Say, "Obey Allah and obey the Messenger; but if you turn away - then upon him is only that [duty] with which he has been charged, and upon you is that with which you have been charged. And if you obey him, you will be [rightly] guided. And there is not upon the Messenger except the [responsibility for] clear notification."

And many more verses in the Qur'aan you will find Allah (s.w.t.) orders us all to obey Allah (s.w.t.) and the messenger Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). No one can deny this or object this. So we've cleared that we HAVE to follow whatever our Prophet (PBUH) has told us to do. So no one can say "Following the Qur'aan is enough", as you need the Hadith as well which is also very imporant. I hope it's pretty clear now that we must follow the hadith and cannot ignore it at all. And today we understand that the most authentic sources of hadith are Bukhari and Muslim. So if you make remarks like "Qur'aan says follow Allah and his Messenger not Allah and Bukhari" you're rejecting the hadith of Bukhari which is proven to be the most authentic hadith. If you can provide us with a more authentic hadith than Bukhari or Muslim please bring it forth, we all want to be guided to the straight path.

Salam 3laikum