Church of England loses one in seven Sunday worshippers in just a decade as new figures confirm a steep decline in the ranks of the Anglican faith
By Steve Doughty - 27 October 2016
The number of worshippers at Church of England Sunday services has dropped by 14 per cent in ten years.
Yesterday's figures confirm a steep decline in the ranks of the Anglican faithful at a time when evidence shows an accelerating fall in Christian belief in the country as a whole.
Sunday attendance, by which the CofE has long measured its congregations, fell to 752,460 in 2015, down from 764,000 in 2014 and around 875,000 in 2005.
The figure dropped below a million in the late 1990s, prompting the Church to stop publishing it for a period, and is now less than half the numbers of the late 1960s. As well as the loss of one in seven members of Sunday congregations in a decade, there was an 18 per cent drop in the number of weddings in CofE churches, a 28 per cent drop in funerals and an 11 per cent fall in baptisms. Even the most popular services, at Easter and Christmas, showed a fall of 13 per cent and 14 per cent in attendance between 2005 and 2015.
Among the population as a whole, according to the 2011 national census, the number of people who call themselves Christians dropped by four million between 2001 and 2011, and the Christian share of the population fell from 72 per cent in 2001 to less than 60 per cent in 2011.
Since 2000, the Church has produced other ways of assessing the number of worshippers. One was average weekly attendance, first published in 2001, showing there were 1.3million people who went to church at some point in the week. That has now also dropped below a million to 960,000.
The CofE has now developed yet another way of counting - the 'worshipping community'. This takes in anyone who goes to church at least once a month and includes people who, it is considered, would go to church if not prevented by illness or disability.
William Nye, secretary general of the Church's cabinet the Archbishops' Council, said: 'The Church of England is setting out on a journey of renewal and reform, aiming to reverse our numerical decline in attendance so that we become a growing church in every region and for every generation.'
The Church said 2.5million people went to a Christmas service in 2015 and 1.3million went to church at Easter.
The masjid I attend in London was converted from a church in the 70's.
But is that haram? like to destroy (well i know it isn't the right word but just bear with me) a place of worship or change it, is it haram? or are there rules/limits?
Not surprised they're dropping, Since Christianity is the number 1 religion that leads to Atheism, and i have many atheistic friends who used to be Christians.
But is that haram? like to destroy (well i know it isn't the right word but just bear with me) a place of worship or change it, is it haram? or are there rules/limits?
No it is not. They sold it and others bought it to convert into whatever purpose they want. IF it was taken by force and destroyed to build something else, that would be haram.
But is that haram? like to destroy (well i know it isn't the right word but just bear with me) a place of worship or change it, is it haram? or are there rules/limits?
Perfectly halal. The church was sold to the Muslims. We didn't go and do some sort of hostile takeover you know, we aint Muricans
No it is not. They sold it and others bought it to convert into whatever purpose they want. IF it was taken by force and destroyed to build something else, that would be haram.
Property is always expensive - especially in London, UK.
But not expensive enough.
Today there are all sorts of Muslim funded projects in and around England, such as community centers as well as halal Gyms etc where men and women either have their own facilities or, share facilities but at different times so as not to freely mix etc.
Way we see it, every right afforded to other religious groups is also afforded to us, so let's make the most of it in sha Allah.
This is from 2005, and it compares some figures to that of 1998. It's a bit more dated than I would like, but it gets into some of the churn within the various Christian churches in the UK (R Catholic, Methodist, Pentecostal and Baptist among others) and it also zeroes in on those who are regular, active churchgoers while just barely giving a nod to the nominal members who mostly don't go to church, live secular lifestyles, may not even be very sure of God's existence, but still say they belong to a certain church because they live in England and some of their family members are part of it. Based on that criteria, just over 3 million Christians in the UK are consistently active churchgoers. This is not very much more than the number of Muslims in the UK that are truly active in their religious communities (which describes about 90% of Muslims in the UK).
Now, I do have some bias here. I am not Catholic, nor am I Anglican or any other kind of mainline Christian. I believe in the separation of church and state, and I also believe it's really bad for any religion in the long term if the religious identity of a people-group has more to do with its government than it does with actual grass-roots belief and practice. The Church of England is still the state religion of England in a certain sense, and now it's becoming obvious that a sizable majority of English Christians have been doing barely anything with their Christian identity because it's supposed to be someone else, somewhere else that makes the good stuff happen for their religion. So I'm not particularly surprised that we've been seeing a drop among Catholics (they make up a larger share of regular churchgoers in England than I thought), the CofE, the Methodists and the Presbyterians. In these types of situations, I expect to see the product of church-state unions struggle when their situation changes to something that's more secular and truly free. Once people have the ability to do otherwise, a lot of them will do so- and sometimes, for hardly any reason other than they didn't have that option before, no other options were previously being made available, they didn't previously feel as if they really had a choice.
So, where I'm coming from is the non-mainline Protestants of the US. Basically the non-denominational camp. I'm a strong believer in giving people a lot of options within Christianity. Let's say someone has an issue with the CofE and doesn't want to be part of it anymore. They'll probably leave it, which they are free to do. If they don't have any other good options in front of them, they probably won't practice Christianity at all. They probably won't practice any religion. But if they have a half-dozen other Christian churches at their disposal that are really similar to the CofE, and if they have an additional two dozen options that are not really much like the CofE, they can spend a few months exploring those options and learning more about the fuller scope of what Christianity has to offer and maybe they'll land in one of those other churches instead of sitting at home.
Pentecostals are the only major type of Christian church in England that's growing pretty quickly, and that's really more of a style of church rather than a specific denomination. It's sort of like a grouping of characteristics that can be found in quite a few different denominations, although some of those churches do identify specifically as Pentecostal and they'll put it on their sign out front. But some of them are part of a certain denomination and they just happen to be Pentecostal. These are the Christians that place a special emphasis on spiritual renewal and on awakening something in people that leads to them being really active in the church, so not very surprisingly, just about all of the people who identify as Pentecostal are also included within the more targeted study of people who are regular and active in their church attendance. The numbers here show there's just under a million Pentecostals in the UK, but the rate of growth has been north of 30% so by now there's probably just over a million of them. This is the most notable feature of the Christian churn that's happening in the UK- the nominal members of its old school churches are being more honest about their religious beliefs by saying they're not really religious after all, and it's Pentecostals and to a lesser extent other non-mainline forms of Protestantism that are moving to the foreground in terms of those Christians who actively practice their faith. They're also younger on average than other major forms of Christianity in the UK.
This other source doesn't give much additional information, but it does help you visualize the broader religious identities of people in the UK (without taking account of who is merely nominal). http://visual.ons.gov.uk/2011-census-religion/
Now here's the way I look at it. You're looking at about 30 million people who identify as Christian, but don't really do too much with their religion. And then another almost 20 million identify as either "no religion" or "religion not stated." Collectively, that's about 50 million people who at one time were supposed to be either Catholic or a part of the Church of England, and they pretty much gave up on that. So the way I see it, that's about 50 million people who could benefit from having additional options put in front of them (although a certain number of these people, probably around 10 million, are very sure of their atheism and are just not open to any religion). But as of right now, it seems most likely that some form of Pentecostal Christianity is the most likely thing that they're going to be considering. It's a rather massive dead space where nothing much is going on in terms of religion, but it seems pretty likely that Pentecostal Protestants are the main group that's going to do all they can to fill that space. And here's a link with some basic information on Pentecostals....not that I am one, but this appears to be the fastest-growing aspect of Christian identity in the UK. http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religi...costal_1.shtml
The main thing religious people have to worry about is the rise of atheism. We're talking about a religious dead space, in terms of nominal identity people who are unsure and those who haven't been influenced by religion in quite a long time....but the longer that goes on at this sort of scale, the more we'll see people who decide that there is no God, and most of them don't change their minds once they've decided. That trend is also on a rather sharp upswing, and atheists in the UK feel pretty comfortable with publicly declaring their atheist identity while saying publicly critical things about religion and about God (for example, characterizing "the God of the Bible/Old Testament/Christianity" as capricious and cruel and a few other things). Religious freedom is good, of course, and people should be free to criticize any religion, mine or yours, without fear of violence or retaliation. On the other hand, without using any force or intimidation, I do think it's important for some beneficial influence and positive experience of Christianity to be expressed and experienced within this group of approximately 50 million people. That currently seems to be fairly absent of any meaningful Christian influence.
I look at this as a time-sensitive situation that's in the middle of a tipping point. About 10 million people in the UK have firmly made up their minds in favor of atheism, and there's another 40 million or so that fall at some point on a continuum that's headed in that direction. They either have one foot out the door when it comes to their religious identity or they don't have a particular religion but haven't made up their mind about God's existence. The CofE and the R Catholic church are both going to do as much as they can to re-energize their whole situation, but I don't count on them being able to do very much. So before another 10 or 20 or 30 million people make up their minds more firmly in favor of atheism, I'd prefer for them to explore some of the other options that Christianity has to offer....and again, I'm not Pentecostal myself, but that does seem to be the main thing that can keep some of these people anchored to Christianity in some form.
Just one more thing to add....the US has gone through this sort of thing at a couple different points in its history. Weekly church attendance dropped to rates even lower than this mainly in the middle of the 18th century, and then again in the mid to late 19th century. That's what necessitated the First and Second Great Awakenings in particular, and on both occasions there were some really important men from England that played important roles in what happened. It seems like the UK is about due for something very similar to that, and that would pretty well describe the best-case scenario that some Christians are looking for. Not Catholics, quite as much, and probably not the CofE either. But the Protestants are hoping for that, and I think it's fair to say we're likely to have a free run at this and see how much we can do. As this is happening, it will be very interesting to see how the Protestants and the atheists interact with one another. I sure hope we can find some common cause and not be hostile to each other, even though we will admittedly be in a bit of a competition for influence within society.
hope we can find some common cause and not be hostile to each other
Brother, I agree and pray to god to make ease on you but seriously.
Athiests are really aggressive,They think all religions are evil, Not just Christians of course, Buddhists,Hindus,Muslims,Jews, They're against all of these religions/people
I just hope that, They don't go out killing Christians,Muslims, And Jews.Because seriously, It's dangerous, Yes we can debate, argue with one another, But VIOLENCE NEEDS TO STAY OUT OF THIS. WE (Muslims,Christians,Jews) do not want violence, I hope they ATLEAST comprehend that (Since they think we're all terrorists..)
But UK and USA are both secular countries right? they're not religious,But the people are (Well some)
i cant blame em really, i rarely go mosque either..
misery does not love company apparently.
last time i prayed in congregation was in an asda car park.
I don't know if you are aware of this or not but missing jummah is not something to take lightly.
If a person for whom Jumu’ah is obligatory does not attend and does not have a valid excuse, this is a major sin. Whoever does not attend three Jumu’ahs (in a row) out of negligence has a seal placed over his heart and is regarded as one of the ghaafileen (negligent, heedless). Muslim narrated in his Saheeh from Abu Hurayrah and Ibn ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with them both), that they heard the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon them) say from his minbar: “People should definitely stop neglecting Jumu’ah, or else Allaah will most certainly seal their hearts and they will most certainly be among the ghaafileen.”
According to another hadeeth: “Whoever neglects three jumu’ahs (in a row) out of negligence will have a seal placed upon his heart.” This is a spiritual punishment, which is more severe that a physical punishment such as imprisonment or flogging. The Muslim ruler should punish those who fail to attend Jumu’ah prayers with no excuse, as a deterrent. Let each Muslim fear Allaah and not miss performing one of the obligatory duties enjoined by Him, lest he expose himself to the punishment of Allaah; let him adhere to that which Allaah has made obligatory so that he may earn the reward of Allaah. And Allaah bestows His Bounty upon whomsoever He wills.
The Muslim ruler should punish those who fail to attend Jumu’ah
By what means? "punish" them? that sounds harsh,Allah knows his/her neeya (intention) if he can go and didn't go,Then Allah will punish,Why should it be physical...
I don't know if you are aware of this or not but missing jummah is not something to take lightly.
If a person for whom Jumu’ah is obligatory does not attend and does not have a valid excuse, this is a major sin. Whoever does not attend three Jumu’ahs (in a row) out of negligence has a seal placed over his heart and is regarded as one of the ghaafileen (negligent, heedless). Muslim narrated in his Saheeh from Abu Hurayrah and Ibn ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with them both), that they heard the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon them) say from his minbar: “People should definitely stop neglecting Jumu’ah, or else Allaah will most certainly seal their hearts and they will most certainly be among the ghaafileen.”
According to another hadeeth: “Whoever neglects three jumu’ahs (in a row) out of negligence will have a seal placed upon his heart.” This is a spiritual punishment, which is more severe that a physical punishment such as imprisonment or flogging. The Muslim ruler should punish those who fail to attend Jumu’ah prayers with no excuse, as a deterrent. Let each Muslim fear Allaah and not miss performing one of the obligatory duties enjoined by Him, lest he expose himself to the punishment of Allaah; let him adhere to that which Allaah has made obligatory so that he may earn the reward of Allaah. And Allaah bestows His Bounty upon whomsoever He wills.
Brother, I agree and pray to god to make ease on you but seriously.
Athiests are really aggressive,They think all religions are evil, Not just Christians of course, Buddhists,Hindus,Muslims,Jews, They're against all of these religions/people
I have been around some of the atheists that are active and YouTube, and some of them are very much this way. Some of these people don't plan on changing for any reason- for instance, I can think of a couple of examples where they put vids up all the time, it's more than just a hobby, and having a lot of subscriptions along with having some influence in the online community is very important to them. And in these couple of examples, they've explicitly had some very specific conversations with lots of people who tell them I like your style, you're usually funny and insightful, but you're too aggressive and disrespectful so that's a turn off. And some of these people don't care. They understand that certain viewers and even other people making videos are putting that pressure on them, they know they could have 10 or 20 thousand extra subscribers if they would do less of this sort of thing. But they don't, maybe they can't, at the very least they don't want to. It's just a big bowl of hate.
Some other atheists, however- including some of the more well known ones who spend time on the Internet- are a bit different. They are more pragmatic, in that they understand it's impossible for a few million atheists to remove religion from the lives of billions of people by making fun of it and mocking it. They understand that a few people will decide to leave whatever religion for whatever reason, but in the meantime there are literally billions of people who will continue being religious and some of them share a society with their atheist neighbors. So these are the atheists who decide to look for ways to work together, despite not agreeing on religious matters. Perhaps they can still agree on how everyone ought to be treated, on religious freedom (without replacing that with "freedom from religion" every time the issue comes up), perhaps consensus on issues of societal importance and legislative significance can still be reached. There are not that many of these atheists- but I do think these are the ones that wind up having more visibility and influence, simply because they're working well with other people and it plays to a wider audience than just the really hateful people.
I just hope that, They don't go out killing Christians,Muslims, And Jews.Because seriously, It's dangerous, Yes we can debate, argue with one another, But VIOLENCE NEEDS TO STAY OUT OF THIS. WE (Muslims,Christians,Jews) do not want violence, I hope they ATLEAST comprehend that (Since they think we're all terrorists..)
I'm really not particularly worried about atheists becoming violent. I'm aware of some fairly aggressive groups of atheists that truly hate all religion, but I'm not aware of any atheist groups that plan acts of violence as a core part of driving their message home. For example- speaking of my own people, Christians in the US- there's a group called the Army of God. They were responsible for the Centennial Olympic Park bombing at the Atlanta Olympic games (although the message the were trying to drive home there was never all that clear to me), and this is the group that's typically responsible for the bombing of abortion clinics whenever you hear about those. One reason I am worried about that type of group is it's not an Army in name only, they really do make a point of finding people that are ex-military. But one reason I'm not as worried as I might be is because their body count is not all that high and they don't have much money coming in. Getting back to the atheists though- I'm not aware of any such atheist group that seeks to kill certain types of religious people. I won't start to get worried about that unless I become aware of a group that's bringing in some serious money and gives me a body count to be worried about. And it's not like I have an extremely high threshold for any of those sorts of things- it doesn't take much to get me a little bit worried- but as far as I'm aware, at this moment, atheists have given me nothing of the sort to be worried about. Again, as far as I'm aware, and this is something that I try to be aware of.
But UK and USA are both secular countries right? they're not religious,But the people are (Well some)
They are both fairly secular, but each of them is a bit different from the other and both are quite different from a country like France. The UK is the most complicated of the three, because the Church of England is still recognized as the state religion in a certain sense although that's as much a figurehead title as anything else. And then there's a slightly different situation in the rest of the UK outside of England, that's been a slightly complicated history in Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland (although the overall results are not really different). In the US, it's secular and there's separation of church and state, but the state is still quite friendly to the church (which is to say, religion in general). Whereas in France, it's secular and the separation is basically the same in principle, but the French state is more predictably hostile to the church. The church and the state are not friends in France, they don't have a good history together and they've never gotten along all that well.
Last edited by cooterhein; 12-02-2016 at 11:31 PM.
atheists who decide to look for ways to work together, despite not agreeing on religious matters. Perhaps they can still agree on how everyone ought to be treated
Exactly, I don't mind having an Athiest neighbor,I'll treat her/him with all respect, As long as they don't hate me and hate my religion and mock me and all of that.I have found some peaceful athiests on youtube aswell,I found some on quran videos where a scholar explains a verse in the quran and they even like the video?? like I get confused when I actually find an atheist on a explaining quran type of video,And you'll get comments like "I have found another way to view this verse, Thanks" and I also found many dangerous athiests who wanna burn the quran,the bible, the torah, ban islam,Christianity, Judaism, And many more hateful things.Im not gonna lie, I kind of have some credit for these peaceful athiests, because when you disagree on something, you don't need to hate, just respect it and don't call for violence.
format_quote Originally Posted by cooterhein
I'm really not particularly worried about atheists becoming violent
format_quote Originally Posted by cooterhein
atheists have given me nothing of the sort to be worried about.
As I said, I just hope that these aggressive groups who hate religions,prophets, Don't go out killing out people, If that happens then we're gonna stand together to stop them.If some of them say, Burn all the religious books (Torah,Bible,Quran) and ban all of these religions, I just had a thought, What if they'll get so pissed they'll go out killing innocent muslims,christians,jews and bombing mosques,churches,and jewish temples (I think that's what you call it)
format_quote Originally Posted by cooterhein
The church and the state are not friends in France, they don't have a good history together and they've never gotten along all that well.
Really?... I once saw on TV,a big group of Christians in a church like building (maybe it is but I don't remember), and in the back you can see muslim women,men standing, I believe it was the Nice shooting.But that's weird,I thought France was a religious country..
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