Hello again to Muslims on this forum, looks very nice.
I been trying to figure something out, it says in many Scriptures of the World.
That when you attain to the heavenly kingdom. You stay there forever (like forever man).
Now many believe God to be Impersonal (no form). That is okay to a point I guess. But
when you consider how we mere mortals can have an eternal form in Heaven, yet God
doesn't seem to be able to. It seems like a bit of a farce. If God is indeed unlimited surely
He can have form? If He cannot then how can you say God is unlimited?
Putting a limit on God is not religion at all. So this has been on my mind.
I hope Muslims here can offer a nice reply.
Pankaja das
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Last edited by Pankaja dasa; 04-16-2006 at 10:55 AM.
We as muslims do believe that Allaah Almighty does have a form, and the believers will be able to see Allaah in paradise, and that will be the best blessing for the believer, due to the fact that they believed in Him in this life (when they were not able to see Him.)
This post might be a bit long - but please have patience - I hope it answers your query.
The Concept Of God In Islam
The most concise definition of God in Islam is given in the four verses of Surah Ikhlaas which is Chapter 112 of the Qur’an:
«"Say: He is Allah, The One and Only.
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute.
He begets not, nor is He begotten.
And there is none like unto Him."»
To Muslims, this four line definition of Almighty God serves as the touchstone of the study of God. Any candidate to divinity must be subjected to this ‘acid test' and since the attributes of The Creator given in this chapter are unique, false gods and pretenders to divinity can be easily dismissed using these verses.
i) The first criterion is «"Say, He is Allah, one and only". »
Can there be more than one god? This verse tells us that The Creator is the only one who has total and absolute power, unique in His names and attributes.
ii) The second criterion is, «'Allah is absolute and eternal’»
The word that is translated as “The Eternal, Absolute” from Arabic is something that can be attributed only to The Creator, as all other existence being temporal or conditional. It also means that Allah is not dependant on any person or thing, but all persons and things are dependant on Him.
iii) The third criterion is «‘He begets not, nor is He begotten’».
This means God was not born, nor does He give birth and share his divinity with others. Nor does He have a family or relationship with another being.
(iv) The fourth test, - which is the most stringent - is, «"There is none like unto Him".»
The moment you can imagine or compare ‘God’ to anything, then he (the candidate to divinity) is not God. It is not possible to conjure up a mental picture of the One True God because of the simple fact, as creation, we only know creation.
Many are tempted to make anthropomorphic comparisons of God. For example, Arnold Schwarzenegger, the famous body builder and Hollywood actor, who won the title of ‘Mr. Universe - the strongest man in the world.'
Suppose someone says “Almighty God is a thousand times stronger than Arnold Schwarzenegger.” This is a false claim to make because the moment you can compare any entity to God, whether the comparison is to Schwarzenegger or to King Kong, whether it is a thousand times or a million times stronger, it fails the Qur’anic criterion, «"There is none like unto Him".»
Thus, the ‘acid test’ cannot be passed by anyone except the One True God. The following verse of the Glorious Qur’an conveys a similar message: «"No vision can grasp Him but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things."»[Al-Qur’an 6:103]
By what name do we call God?
The Muslims prefer calling the Supreme Creator, 'Allah', instead of the English word ‘God’. The Arabic word, ‘Allah’, is pure and unique, unlike the English word ‘God’, which can be played around with.
For example, If you add ‘s’ to the word God, it becomes ‘Gods’, that is the plural of God. Allah is one and singular, there is no plural of Allah. If you add ‘dess’ to the word God, it becomes ‘Goddess’ that is a female God. There is nothing like male Allah or female Allah. Allah has no gender. If you add the word ‘father’ to ‘God’ it becomes ‘God-father’. God-father means someone who is a guardian. There is no word like ‘Allah-father’. If you add the word ‘mother’ to ‘God’, it becomes ‘God-mother’. There is nothing like ‘Allah-mother’ in Islam.
Allah is a unique word, which does not conjure up any mental picture nor can it be played around with. Therefore the Muslims prefer using the Arabic word ‘Allah’ for the Almighty.
Unity of God.
Some say that the existence of more than one God is not illogical. Let us point out to them that if there were more than one God, they would dispute with one another, each god trying to fulfill his will against the will of the other gods. This can be seen in the mythology of the polytheistic and pantheistic religions.
If a ‘God’ is defeated or unable to defeat the others, he is surely not the one true God. Also popular among polytheistic religions is the idea of many Gods, each having different responsibilities. Each one would be responsible for a part of man’s existence e.g. a Sun-God, a Rain-God, etc. This indicates that one ‘God’ is incompetent of certain acts and moreover he is also ignorant of the other Gods’ powers, duties, functions and responsibilities. There cannot be an ignorant and incapable God. If there were more than one God it would surely lead to confusion, disorder, chaos and destruction in the universe. But the universe is in complete harmony. The Glorious Qur’an says: «"If there were, in the heavens and the earth, other gods besides Allah, there would have been confusion in both! But glory to Allah, The Lord of the Throne: (High is He) above what they attribute to Him!" »[Al-Qur’an 21:22]
If there were more than one God, they would have taken away what they created. The Qur’an says: «"No son did Allah beget, nor is there any god along with Him: (if there were many gods), behold, each god would have taken away what he had created, and some would have lorded it over others! Glory to Allah! (He is free)from the (sort of) things yhey attribute to Him!" »[Al-Qur’an 23:91]
Thus the existence of one True, Unique, Supreme, Almighty God, is the only logical concept of God.
God does not take human form:
Many religions at some point believe, directly or indirectly, in the philosophy of anthropomorphism i.e. God becoming a human. Their contention is that Almighty God is so pure and holy that He is unaware of the hardships, shortcomings and feelings of human beings. In order to set the rules for human beings, He came down to earth as a human. Let us now analyze this argument and see if it stands to reason.
Suppose I manufacture a video cassette recorder (VCR). Do I have to become a VCR to know what is good or what is bad for the VCR? What do I do? I write an instruction manual. "In order to watch a video cassette, insert the cassette and press the play button. In order to stop, press the stop button. If you want to fast forward press the FF button. Do not drop it from a height or it will get damaged. Do not immerse it in water or it will get ruined". This instruction manual lists the various do’s and don’ts for the machine.
Similarly, our Lord and Creator, Allah need not take human form to know what is good or bad for the human being. He chooses to reveal the instruction manual. The last and final instruction manual of the human beings is the Glorious Qur’an. The ‘dos’ and ‘don’ts’ for the human beings are mentioned in the Qur’an.
If you allow me to compare human beings with machines, I would say humans are more complicated than the most complex machines in the world. Even the most advanced computers, which are extremely complex, are pale in comparison to the physical, psychological, genetic and social factors that affect individual and collective human life.
The more advanced the machine, greater is the need for its instruction manual. By the same logic, don’t human beings require an instruction manual by which to govern their own lives?
Therefore Allah does not come down personally for giving the instruction manual. He chooses a man amongst men to deliver the message and communicates with him at a higher level through the medium of revelations. Such chosen men are called messengers and prophets of God.
God does not perform ungodly acts:
The attributes of Almighty God preclude any evil since God is the source of justice, mercy and truth. God can never be thought of as doing an ungodly act. Hence we cannot imagine God telling a lie, being unjust, making a mistake, forgetting things, or having any such human failings. Similarly God can do injustice if He chooses to, but He will never do it because being unjust is an ungodly act. The Qur’an says: «"Allah is never unjust in the least degree."»[Al-Qur’an 4:40] God can be unjust if He chooses to be so, but the moment God does injustice, He ceases to be God.
God does not make mistakes
God can make mistakes if He wants to, but He does not make mistakes because making a mistake is an ungodly act. The Qur’an says: «"…my Lord never errs."»[Holy Qur’an 20:52] The moment God makes a mistake, he ceases to be God.
God does not forget
God can forget if He wants to. But God does not forget anything because forgetting is an ungodly act, which reeks of human limitations and failings. The Qur’an says: «"…my Lord never errs, nor forgets."»[Al-Qur’an 20:52]
God only performs Godly acts:
The Islamic concept of God is that God has power over all things. The Qur’an says in several places (Al -Qur’an 2:106; 2:109; 2:284; 3:29; 16:77; and 35:1): «"For verily Allah has power over all things"»
Further, the Glorious Qur’an says:«"Allah is the doer of all that He intends."»[Al-Qur’an 85:16] We must keep in mind that Allah intends only Godly acts and not ungodly acts.
Attributes of God:
To Allah belong the most beautiful names. The Qur’an says: «"Say: Call upon Allah, or Call upon Rahman (The Most Merciful): By whatever name you call Upon Him, (it is well): For to Him belong The Most Beautiful Names."[»Al-Qur’an 17:110]
A similar message regarding the beautiful names of Allah is repeated in the Qur’an in Surah Al-A’raf (7:180), in Surah Taha (20:8) and in Surah Al-Hashr (59:24).
The Qur’an gives no less than ninety-nine different attributes to Almighty Allah. The Qur’an refers to Allah as Ar-Rahman (Most Gracious), Ar-Raheem (Most Merciful) and Al-Hakeem (All Wise) among many other names. http://beconvinced.com/en/article.ph...mes%20Of%20God
Many religions at some point believe, directly or indirectly, in the philosophy of anthropomorphism i.e. God becoming a human. Their contention is that Almighty God is so pure and holy that He is unaware of the hardships, shortcomings and feelings of human beings. In order to set the rules for human beings, He came down to earth as a human. Let us now analyze this argument and see if it stands to reason.
You see this is the point I made before. You said God doesn't take a Human Form. But you as a human will have an eternal form. ? How is that even possible. Anyway, at least one person agree with me above. Which makes me feel better.
Let's see what you have to say!
Last edited by Pankaja dasa; 04-16-2006 at 02:51 PM.
It says God cannot be a man. I mean everybody in Islam as and were person(s), all the Prophets. So ..
Kinda makes me think. God is also a person, Supreme Person. Imagine a person as the Lord of all beings. That's your God conception right their. Over lord. Supreme being. Then a person will say 'how can a person (medium sized) be God? Then I suppose you have your answer. That's totally powerful. Unimaginable.
Last edited by Pankaja dasa; 04-16-2006 at 03:26 PM.
God doesn't have to be a 'person' to be a Creator. We as humans are just an invention of God, and we won't know His real form until we enter paradise insha'Allaah (if Allaah wills.)
Our minds are too basic to comprehend the vision of God, and this is why our faith in the unseen is what will be part of our salvation.
This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).
Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;
And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.
They are on (true) guidance, from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper.
God doesn't have to be a 'person' to be a Creator. We as humans are just an invention of God, and we won't know His real form until we enter paradise insha'Allaah (if Allaah wills.)
No, I don't believe he is speculating at all. He is explaining that we are the creation of God.
Another of your quotes: It says God cannot be a man. I mean everybody in Islam as and were person(s), all the Prophets. So ..
Kinda makes me think. God is also a person, Supreme Person. Imagine a person as the Lord of all beings. That's your God conception right their. Over lord. Supreme being. Then a person will say 'how can a person (medium sized) be God? Then I suppose you have your answer. That's totally powerful. Unimaginable.
How did you get to your thinking that God is also a person? Can you please be more specific?
Also, we don't believe that God takes a human form - but we do believe he has a form.
In Hindisum (I have to call it that). Everything is thought to have form. Even the Sun Planet we consider it to be inhanitated by people who have bodies that can live thier. Like fish live in water but we can't.
So we consider God to have a human form. But His form is unlike ours in that He was always exsisting. Hindisum is vast like an ocean, and has many different sections of philosophy.
In Hindisum (I have to call it that). Everything is thought to have form. Even the Sun Planet we consider it to be inhanitated by people who have bodies that can live thier. Like fish live in water but we can't.
So we consider God to have a human form. But His form is unlike ours in that He was always exsisting. Hindisum is vast like an ocean, and has many different sections of philosophy.
Hello
I appreciate your information, thanks for that. I agree with your statement that God was always existing.
Let's consider this. If God has a human form, do you mean that he eats, sleeps, drinks, urinates and so on?
According to your belief, where is God?
If, as you have explained, God is human and we are also human, and if you believe God is in everything, does that give people the right to worship ....each other?
Would you be willing to accept that the sun, moon, trees and humans have been created by God? Yes or no?
This is what the Qur'an says about the issue:
And from among His Signs are the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. Do not bow down (prostrate) to the sun nor to the moon, but only bow down (prostrate) to "Allah" Who created them, if you (really) worship Him." [Quran 41:37]
Basically that means - worship the Creator, the all-powerful, who created everything and not the creation.
I appreciate your information, thanks for that. I agree with your statement that God was always existing.
Let's consider this. If God has a human form, do you mean that he eats, sleeps, drinks, urinates and so on?
According to your belief, where is God?
If, as you have explained, God is human and we are also human, and if you believe God is in everything, does that give people the right to worship ....each other?
Would you be willing to accept that the sun, moon, trees and humans have been created by God? Yes or no?
This is what the Qur'an says about the issue:
And from among His Signs are the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. Do not bow down (prostrate) to the sun nor to the moon, but only bow down (prostrate) to "Allah" Who created them, if you (really) worship Him." [Quran 41:37]
Basically that means - worship the Creator, the all-powerful, who created everything and not the creation.
Please do explain what you think.
Peace.
It says in our Scriptures that God doesn't need to eat (He has a spiritual body). You say and think that God cannot eat etc, but you eat everyday?
Yes, thanks to God who made my digestive system and my mouth, teeth, etc I am able to eat everyday. It is God who created the system - in our belief, He does not eat/drink or act as humans have to.
Allah revealed in Surah Ikhlas (S: 112) as follows:
In the name Of Allah, The most Gracious, The Most Merciful.
Say, Allah is One,
Allah The Everlasting, The Eternal,
He has not given birth and was not born,
And no one is comparable to Him
I just wanted to clarify, maybe I am misunderstanding what you are trying to say - do you believe God is human or do you believe he is a spirit?
Can you please answer the questions I wrote in the dot points in the previous post, so we can have a more meaningful conversation?
Let's consider this. If God has a human form, do you mean that he eats, sleeps, drinks, urinates and so on?
According to your belief, where is God?
If, as you have explained, God is human and we are also human, and if you believe God is in everything, does that give people the right to worship ....each other?
1. God can eat if He wants to, eating is a type of enjoyment (nice, food etc) of cource God can eat.
2. God lives in His abode. (spiritual abode)
3. A person is great according to His realization of God. That's recogzined universally, we worship Gods servants more because His our only link (not url!) to God.
1. God can eat if He wants to, eating is a type of enjoyment (nice, food etc) of cource God can eat.
2. God lives in His abode. (spiritual abode)
3. A person is great according to His realization of God. That's recogzined universally, we worship Gods servants more because His our only link (not url!) to God.
Hello
Let us consider this again. We as Muslims, when talking about the characteristics of God, judge according to the Quranic verses that I told you in my previous post. There is none like unto Him
So, if you believe God can eat - and you also believe that He has human form - it must stand to reason that He also urinates/goes to the toilet/defecates.This is natural to humans right? When you eat - well, the food has to go somewhere....
That is a very serious thing to consider - do you think it makes sense that you associate God with something as filthy as going to the toilet?
I agree with you that a person is great according to his realisation of God. In Islam, we say no one is better than another person unless he is more pious or God-fearing. Only God can judge a person and only God knows who is more pious and who has more realisation of Him. Do you agree?
So because of this, you say you worship humans too because they are your 'link' to God? How can you consider who "has more realisation of God"? Only God knows who had more realisation of Him. For example, say you thought one person was very good and had more realisation of God, so you worshipped him - then what if you found out he really was a bad person and was only pretending to be good? What is the consequence of this?
How can you worship God's servants more than you worship God Himself? Don't you think God has more right to be worshipped? Who gave life to you? - God. Who created everyone? - God. Who keeps us breathing each day? - God. Who takes our life away? - God. So why is it that you worship someone else, besides God? In your belief, can you not have a direct link to God?Why/why not?
I agree with you that God lives in his spiritual abode. Allah tells us clearly in the Quran that He created the universe in six "yawm" (periods of time) and then He "astawah 'ala al Arsh" (rose up, above His Throne).
God doesn't need to do what you said since His body is spiritual. (eternal). But He can if He wants to. Why are you trying to say human form is bad? Do you hate your own body so much?
format_quote Originally Posted by F.Y.
How can you worship God's servants more than you worship God Himself? Don't you think God has more right to be worshipped? Who gave life to you? - God. Who created everyone? - God. Who keeps us breathing each day? - God. Who takes our life away? - God. So why is it that you worship someone else, besides God? In your belief, can you not have a direct link to God?Why/why not?
It's only because of devotees of God we find out God even exists. If it were not for them I would have followed Darwinism, Newton etc. You asked how do we know a person is man of God. I don't know if I am capable of explaining something like it but we have a disciplic succession (spiritual lineage). It's pretty old. The spiritual masters come from around 5000 years ago to the present day, and the knowledge has not changed with it. If a person from that line (it's a spiritual line, not material bodies). Then we can judge who the person (called an Acharya) usually is. By His activities and His preaching and or devotion. Especially His characteristic’s, He has to be following 100% everything. Only then is the person called a Guru. Unfortunately and I don't like to say this as it pains me, but there are many charlatan Guru's about. Who don't follow anything, but they have mystic powers (this is acquired easily by devotion to God). But the result is you become bereft of devotion to God, you simply have powers. I think I made my point, not really sure.
Pankaja dasa, do you have any evidence to support what you're saying?
What are you referring to? The disiplic succession you mean? What do you want me to do, go back in time or something?
The Spiritual Masters are the evidence, and knowledge is always eternal, 5000 years is nothing.
We have the full list of the spiritual masters, from 5000 years. But only the very prominent ones are mentioned. (acharyas). We do have a lot of evidence, such as places in India (5000 year old temples etc). Can all be verified. But as it is. It's also a matter of faith, some people even after getting so much evidence. Still don't take it. So what can be done for them?
Last edited by Pankaja dasa; 04-19-2006 at 02:48 PM.
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