Christians say Jesus was God. They say that God had three parts.
The Father
The Son
The Holy Ghost.
Of course I completly reject this idea as an Orthodox Jew, but it is the foundation of Chrsitian belief.
Therefore when someone says Jesus saves... they mean God saves.
Not sure I, as a Christian, would say God has three "parts" but rather "Persons". But you have the right idea. Actually, "Persons" causes many to think of three Gods, which is not so. To say God is Savior, the ONLY Savior, is to say The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit IS the only Savior.
And all three are essential to our salvation:
1. The Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world (1 John 4:14).
2. The Son (the "Word") took upon Himself mortal flesh and went and died for our sins (John 1:1,14; Rom. 5:8; 1 Cor. 15:1-3).
3. The Holy Spirit convicts us of our sins and shows us our need for a Savior and, upon our placing our faith in Jesus and what He did at Calvary for our sins, regenerates us and gives us LIFE, eternal life.
This may have been answered in your thread of questions answered by a Jew, but since the original question of this thread was from Isaiah and you answered the question, would you please tell me WHO Isaiah was referring to in Isaiah 53:
3. He is despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4. Surely He has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.
5. But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed.
6. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
7. He was oppressed and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so He opened not his mouth.
8. He was taken from prison and from judgment, and who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
9. And they made His grave with the wicked but with the rich at His death, because He had done no violence, nor was any deceit in His mouth.
10. Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11. He shall see the travail of His soul, and be satisfied. by His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, for He shall bear their iniquities.
12. Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, and He shall divide the spoil with the strong, because He poured out His soul unto death, and He was numbered with the transgressors, and He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
If you've already answered that, perhaps you can give me a link to your answer, or just copy and paste it. Thanks.
the athenian creed always made no sense to me what-so-ever!
i mean,
1st person = God the father
2nd person = God the son
3rd person = God the holy Spirit
now that is 1 + 1 + 1 and somehow that equals 1 in the minds of the modern christians, absolutely crazy!
1 + 1 + 1 = 3 not 1
when i used to question vicars and priests before i came to islam they would go around and around and eventually just say that i had to accept it blindly to be saved even though it didnt make sense.
this is why islam is superior and shown to be the true faith of God, it combines faith and reason together and uses logical sources and evidence to back up its ideas.
peace be upon those who follow righteous guidence,
Daw'ud
the athenian creed always made no sense to me what-so-ever!
i mean,
1st person = God the father
2nd person = God the son
3rd person = God the holy Spirit
now that is 1 + 1 + 1 and somehow that equals 1 in the minds of the modern christians, absolutely crazy!
1 + 1 + 1 = 3 not 1
when i used to question vicars and priests before i came to islam they would go around and around and eventually just say that i had to accept it blindly to be saved even though it didnt make sense.
this is why islam is superior and shown to be the true faith of God, it combines faith and reason together and uses logical sources and evidence to back up its ideas.
I think you mean the Athanasian Creed, named after Athanasius (c. 296-373 A.D.). Well, you are half right. 1 Person + 1 Person + 1 Person does equal 3 Persons, not 1 Person. But they do equal the ONE God.
What I would like to know from you is, after knowing Jesus died for your sins, are you going to forsake that and risk paying for them yourself throughout all eternity? Payment MUST be made for ALL sin. If HE didn't make that payment, YOU have to. It is as simple as that. How does your "true faith of God" deal with that FACT? Simply overlook sin, or forgive it without any payment? God would not be a just Judge if He did that.
I think you mean the Athanasian Creed, named after Athanasius (c. 296-373 A.D.). Well, you are half right. 1 Person + 1 Person + 1 Person does equal 3 Persons, not 1 Person. But they do equal the ONE God.
What I would like to know from you is, after knowing Jesus died for your sins, are you going to forsake that and risk paying for them yourself throughout all eternity? Payment MUST be made for ALL sin. If HE didn't make that payment, YOU have to. It is as simple as that. How does your "true faith of God" deal with that FACT? Simply overlook sin, or forgive it without any payment? God would not be a just Judge if He did that.
Peace
because [Byou[/B] "know" jesus died for you sins, that is true for you
as a christian. he did die for your sins in your religion. obviously, that is not truth to the majority of the world's population, including me.
so as for me, i am not forsaking anything whatsoever. how can i forsake something that is a matter of belief only, if i do not share the belief?
what is says in your holy book is not FACT - it is only fact for those who believe in it. and accept that as their starting premise i've had arguments like this with before - with both christians and muslims.
each man thinks of his own fleas as gazelles
question authority
because [Byou[/B] "know" jesus died for you sins, that is true for you
as a christian. he did die for your sins in your religion. obviously, that is not truth to the majority of the world's population, including me.
so as for me, i am not forsaking anything whatsoever. how can i forsake something that is a matter of belief only, if i do not share the belief?
what is says in your holy book is not FACT - it is only fact for those who believe in it. and accept that as their starting premise i've had arguments like this with before - with both christians and muslims.
I agree with you although, I would say it is only a fact if it is a fact, otherwise it is fiction. I don’t think I will ever understand the power of beliefs, our beliefs can inspire life and death.
Life is a journey always one day at a time, and as we grow in faith our beliefs seem to become our facts that we forge our destiny on.
I believe there is a great need to build relationships with people who have equally sincere but different beliefs to our own.
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
when i used to question vicars and priests before i came to islam they would go around and around and eventually just say that i had to accept it blindly to be saved even though it didnt make sense.
this is why islam is superior and shown to be the true faith of God, it combines faith and reason together and uses logical sources and evidence to back up its ideas.
Originally Posted by Phil12123
What I would like to know from you is, after knowing Jesus died for your sins, are you going to forsake that and risk paying for them yourself throughout all eternity? Payment MUST be made for ALL sin. If HE didn't make that payment, YOU have to. It is as simple as that. How does your "true faith of God" deal with that FACT? Simply overlook sin, or forgive it without any payment? God would not be a just Judge if He did that.
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
because you "know" jesus died for you sins, that is true for you as a christian. he did die for your sins in your religion. obviously, that is not truth to the majority of the world's population, including me.
so as for me, i am not forsaking anything whatsoever. how can i forsake something that is a matter of belief only, if i do not share the belief?
what is says in your holy book is not FACT - it is only fact for those who believe in it. and accept that as their starting premise i've had arguments like this with before - with both christians and muslims.
Snakelegs, I was addressing my comments and questions to Dawud_uk who, I guess was once a Christian, at least nominally, and then became a Muslim, not to you, an agnostic. I realize you never forsook anything, not having ever believed it.
You are correct, though, that Jesus did NOT die for YOUR sins, in effect, if you reject that death for your sins. Your sins then remain unpaid for and you will have to pay for them yourself.
Snakelegs, I was addressing my comments and questions to Dawud_uk who, I guess was once a Christian, at least nominally, and then became a Muslim, not to you, an agnostic. I realize you never forsook anything, not having ever believed it.
You are correct, though, that Jesus did NOT die for YOUR sins, in effect, if you reject that death for your sins. Your sins then remain unpaid for and you will have to pay for them yourself.
Peace
oh.
each man thinks of his own fleas as gazelles
question authority
the athenian creed always made no sense to me what-so-ever!
i mean,
1st person = God the father
2nd person = God the son
3rd person = God the holy Spirit
now that is 1 + 1 + 1 and somehow that equals 1 in the minds of the modern christians, absolutely crazy!
1 + 1 + 1 = 3 not 1
when i used to question vicars and priests before i came to islam they would go around and around and eventually just say that i had to accept it blindly to be saved even though it didnt make sense.
this is why islam is superior and shown to be the true faith of God, it combines faith and reason together and uses logical sources and evidence to back up its ideas.
peace be upon those who follow righteous guidence,
Daw'ud
Here's an analogy:
I am a
1. mother
2. wife
3. daughter
1+1+1=3
Am I three people? No. I'm still just one person.
Fear makes strangers of people who would be friends.
Is God capable of anything? Or does he have limitations?
Christianity teaches that God is capable of anything.
The same God(swt) who is capable of revealing the Qur'an to Muhammad, so that it would be seen by all nations. The same God(swt) who is cabable of forgiving sins with just a thought.
The same God(swt) who is capable of revealing the Qur'an to Muhammad, so that it would be seen by all nations. The same God(swt) who is cabable of forgiving sins with just a thought.
This is my point. If muslims can believe in the awesome event of the Quran being revealed, they can surely understand why Christians would believe in something as complex as the trinity.
Fear makes strangers of people who would be friends.
This is my point. If muslims can believe in the awesome event of the Quran being revealed, they can surely understand why Christians would believe in something as complex as the trinity.
On a personal note I can understand why a Christian would believe so. I believed so for many years myself. It was only after I sought evidence as to why we were taught about the Trinity, when I could find no reference prior to the Nicene Counsel. Then it struck me as even odder that since the Nicene Council was composed of the Catholic Church, why do so many who consider themselves Christian deny other teachings of the Catholic Church. Seems like it is a belief brought about through selective "evidence".
I don't think many would not believe in God's(swt) ability to create a trinity. I just do not think we have seen any evidence that he has done so.
On a personal note I can understand why a Christian would believe so. I believed so for many years myself. It was only after I sought evidence as to why we were taught about the Trinity, when I could find no reference prior to the Nicene Counsel. Then it struck me as even odder that since the Nicene Council was composed of the Catholic Church, why do so many who consider themselves Christian deny other teachings of the Catholic Church. Seems like it is a belief brought about through selective "evidence".
I don't think many would not believe in God's(swt) ability to create a trinity. I just do not think we have seen any evidence that he has done so.
That's fair enough. There are some good refutations about the trinity. But to me it comes down to faith, like any other religious belief.
Fear makes strangers of people who would be friends.
I think you mean the Athanasian Creed, named after Athanasius (c. 296-373 A.D.). Well, you are half right. 1 Person + 1 Person + 1 Person does equal 3 Persons, not 1 Person. But they do equal the ONE God.
What I would like to know from you is, after knowing Jesus died for your sins, are you going to forsake that and risk paying for them yourself throughout all eternity? Payment MUST be made for ALL sin. If HE didn't make that payment, YOU have to. It is as simple as that. How does your "true faith of God" deal with that FACT? Simply overlook sin, or forgive it without any payment? God would not be a just Judge if He did that.
Peace
look you see all mankind as sinful, i simply do not.
every person is capable of repentence to God, to seek their salvation and knowing God is most merciful,
you are denying God's mercy when you say we must go through another person to get mercy.
Snakelegs, I was addressing my comments and questions to Dawud_uk who, I guess was once a Christian, at least nominally, and then became a Muslim, not to you, an agnostic. I realize you never forsook anything, not having ever believed it.
You are correct, though, that Jesus did NOT die for YOUR sins, in effect, if you reject that death for your sins. Your sins then remain unpaid for and you will have to pay for them yourself.
Peace
actually i was never a christian, was never christened and only ever turned up at church when forced into it for family christenings, weddings and funerals.
i have had this discussion with christian missionaries, vicars and priests and none of them could make me believe 1 + 1 + 1 = 1 or that we are all born sinful.
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Only God saves so says the Bible
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