the Integration of Muslims

[Bittersteel]

I am kind of sick and tired after reading all these "integration of Muslims in western societies" articles.

what does integration really implying apart from rejecting the veil?
that its mandatory for a Muslim male or female to attend to dance clubs,rock concerts ,watch porn,have pre-marital sex to be accepted into the western society?

look I am confused.

what if a Muslim living in the UK or France refuses to do such things?will you keep him or her out?

[Muezzin]

What you're talking about is assimilation.

Integration is where you keep all your own values, and you manage to live in peace with your neighbours and in accordance with the law. Unfortunately, some right-wingers confuse these terms to fulfil some sort of agenda.

I think the vast majority of Muslims in the UK have integrated just fine.

[Nablus]

when a muslim male or female dance in a club so they intigrated in the society!!!!!!!!!!!


thousands of westerners dont go to clubs so they didnt intigrate in their societies!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Woodrow]

A very large number of Americans do not adhere to those so called Western Values. However, most of us support the right of each person to pursue whatever he/she desires as long as it does not violate Federal, State or Local laws.

From what I have seen of the way Americans are portrayed in much of the world I can understand why so many people, that have not lived in America, come to the conclussion that America is a country of very loose moral values.

we even have problems with the way people from other states envision the residents of other states some examples being :

People from Arkansas are ignorant and engage in incest

Texans all carry guns and are anti non-white

New Yorkers are cold and uncaring

People from Massachusets are rich and talk funny

Stereotypes should never typify any group. Each person needs and deserves to be seen as an individual and responsible for their own actions.

Integration does not require adhering to another persons beliefs or values, it is the recognition that each person neeeds to be treated equaly under the laws of the land and no person should be denied the rights awarded to other members of the society.

[Joe98]

I am kind of sick and tired after reading all these "integration of Muslims in western societies" articles.

The people should play chess, cricket, soccer, tennis, bridge, or some other social event with the local community.

Join the local volunteers who help the poor and the elderly of the local community.

Then after the event, team members will go somewhere for a discussion of the results of the game. Some people will have beer and others soft drink. Muslims will refuse to attend because one or more will have beer.

Muslims were invited but refuse to attend. Tell us again why they can't integrate?

[Woodrow]

There is a difference between socialising and integrating. Integrating involves the acceptance into community affairs, socialising means participation. A person can be fully integrated without socialising. The main thing is nobody should be excluded from any public functions or employment on the basis of Race, religion or National Origin.

[Joe98]

The main thing is nobody should be excluded from any public functions or employment on the basis of Race, religion or National Origin.

Yes thats fine by me. But your argument is that it is the West does this intentionally. My argument is that Muslims do not socialise thereby excluding themselves. Example:

A cricket team includes a Muslim from Pakistan. After the game they all go for a drink. Half the team drinks soft drinks and half drink beer.

They talk about the game. And they talk about changing the batting order. An outsider would say that the muslim player ought to be advanced in the line up to number 4. One player, over drinks, convinces the captain he is best as no. 4 in the line up.

But the Muslim player refused to go to the drinks. Even refused to join the players drinking soft drinks because there is beer present.

The Muslim player therefore cannot talk to the captain, is dropped to no. 7 then later claims discrimination. Leaves the team and claims he cannot "integrate with the West".

-

[Dahir]

Yes thats fine by me. But your argument is that it is the West does this intentionally. My argument is that Muslims do not socialise thereby excluding themselves. Example:

A cricket team includes a Muslim from Pakistan. After the game they all go for a drink. Half the team drinks soft drinks and half drink beer.

They talk about the game. And they talk about changing the batting order. An outsider would say that the muslim player ought to be advanced in the line up to number 4. One player, over drinks, convinces the captain he is best as no. 4 in the line up.

But the Muslim player refused to go to the drinks. Even refused to join the players drinking soft drinks because there is beer present.

The Muslim player therefore cannot talk to the captain, is dropped to no. 7 then later claims discrimination. Leaves the team and claims he cannot "integrate with the West".

-

That's a tough cookie there, I even must admit that its tough dealing with that situation.

There is one simple answer -- the Muslim player ought to drop out of the team. Its those types of situations were the team would view Islam as a barrier for the player.

If my workplace does not allow me to express my religious beliefs justly -- without interfering with others' duties -- then I don't want to work there.

Simple as this -- DO NOT JOIN! The Muslim player obviously has no place on that team. MY PERSONAL conclusion.

[Joe98]

There is one simple answer -- the Muslim player ought to drop out of the team. Its those types of situations were the team would view Islam as a barrier for the player.

Exactly the answer I expected! The team is happy for him to play. The team see him as a good player.

The team did not view Islam as a barrier for the player. The player saw Islam as a barrier.

The player made his own choice then claimed discrimination. And this reflects current society.

[Woodrow]

Yes thats fine by me. But your argument is that it is the West does this intentionally. My argument is that Muslims do not socialise thereby excluding themselves. Example:

A cricket team includes a Muslim from Pakistan. After the game they all go for a drink. Half the team drinks soft drinks and half drink beer.

They talk about the game. And they talk about changing the batting order. An outsider would say that the muslim player ought to be advanced in the line up to number 4. One player, over drinks, convinces the captain he is best as no. 4 in the line up.

But the Muslim player refused to go to the drinks. Even refused to join the players drinking soft drinks because there is beer present.

The Muslim player therefore cannot talk to the captain, is dropped to no. 7 then later claims discrimination. Leaves the team and claims he cannot "integrate with the West".

-

You bring up a good point and Us Muslims do need to recognise the times that we are excluded because of our own choice.

[Dahir]

Exactly the answer I expected! The team is happy for him to play. The team see him as a good player.

The team did not view Islam as a barrier for the player. The player saw Islam as a barrier.

The player made his own choice then claimed discrimination. And this reflects current society.

So we agree, in an odd way. The team wanted him to play, but they know that Islam is a barrier for him -- a rule suggesting he cannot associate himself with an alcoholic atmosphere. And the player knew that Islam was a barrier for him -- the rule that suggested against associating with alcohol.

In conclusion, we're both correct, oddly enough.

[Curaezipirid]

The reality of the meaning of the word integration is that we learn to experience each others similarities by acknowledging difference and experience each others individuality only by acknowledging similarity.

Integration has no other meaning.

When references are made in 'integration' if the request is decently motivated then it is made within a framework of learning to more accurately attune with each other and communicate. When such is occuring then conversions to Islam occur.

When references are made to 'integration' in which the motivation is that of shaytan, then Muslims are regarded as idiots for exibiting any manifestation of will to avoid sin.

While I can accomodate occasional idividual situations in which wearing less formal veil is functionally adequate as a means of providing a non-Muslim with a shock which catalyses the formation of a new impression of Islam; we must be adamant that our expression of will to avoid sin is essentially a Human right.

All the more reason to sustain being in veil when we can benefit from a few rare instances of removal of the veil that sustain the reality of internal Hijab. Where such is useful in communication is rare and it is more often usual in my experience, that ordinary Australians are able to receive that, necessary, shock to experience new regard for Islam, by my self within full Hijab occassionally being able to display a behavioural communcation with other Australians that is not within their usual experience of Muslim women. Usually even only speaking in an Australian accent is effective here. But often it is that I simply openly express a sound valid comprehension of Australian culture and other Australians receive a shock.

Clearly the Australian example is quite removed from the British. But I am sure that there are far more shaytan here in every distinct community than there are in other countries since the 'white Australia' policy of the 1950's and others since then, actively invited shaytan to Australia, for ill begotten intentions of course. It may be that here in Australia an occasional removal of Hijab in a "so there, I am still a Muslim even if I make a mistake" sort of approach, might have a conceivable social efficacy. But in Britain the whole social climate of Islam and other folks relations with is so enormously different. Muslims in Britain are clearly a part of the larger social group that is regarded as 'Black Britain' and is inclusive of many including among the indigenous white population. But Muslims in Australia are regarded by most Australians as though more oriented to a white culture, and more stuck up, than your average Billy Brit. I think that the whole difference is a manifestation of the severity with which racism has under cut the indigenous population in Australia, many of whom are cut of pshychologically from being able to orient to the fact that our ancestors were long already become Muslim.

So in that larger picture of integration what is needed here in Australia is really an active integration of all the disparity present among true believers.

It is sad to notice when portions of what is essentially an Australian battle are being displaced into communities which have no need of.

The extent of my own coverage with a Hijab veil varies daily from full face cover to my neck being uncovered. But I am at all times in very strick internal regard in respect of the matter. The battle around Hijab is always about expression of a Muslim identity and protection of Muslim schooling. It is not a matter of a community frustration with the communication of needs.

Those in Britain whom push an integration barrow are clearly attempting to cause a psychological rape of Islam. Maybe their retribution with come with Australians beginning to integrate with Muslims by converting (or re-converting) without, at first, wearing Hijab; It would be a good conclusion, if possible, for all Aussie true believers to gradually align with Islam, and then in one mass suddenly all donning the veil.

The sad reality in Australia is that many shaytan have made efforts to prevent Australians accepting Islam to that extent. The details are too ill minded to portray, but there are certainly many criminals whom enforce a mental attitude upon the black youth culture as though at the first mental sign of any matter non-Islamic they are automatically no longer a Muslim and relagated to being back in among the synagogue of shaytan. I don't know how or why the criminals who try to pervert youth are getting away with such, but I have witnessed. Perhaps better only to report that there are too many breaches of the Ummah here in Australia. I find my self that in public every time I turn around there is somebody trying to find me manifesting a non-Muslim behaviour, or somebody trying to force me into such. They are as thick as a brick but since even if I have no Muslim identify my self knowledge continues to prevent their false assertions whenever I am experiencing the evidence directly.

Thanks for reading a long and boring post; I am in an outrageous temper this afternoon since criminals were following myself with my son to try to pressure him not to side with me in Islam; and looking for their false evidence against Islam in us. But that is a longer story than one post.

mu'asalam

[AvarAllahNoor]

Yes thats fine by me. But your argument is that it is the West does this intentionally. My argument is that Muslims do not socialise thereby excluding themselves. Example:

A cricket team includes a Muslim from Pakistan. After the game they all go for a drink. Half the team drinks soft drinks and half drink beer.

They talk about the game. And they talk about changing the batting order. An outsider would say that the muslim player ought to be advanced in the line up to number 4. One player, over drinks, convinces the captain he is best as no. 4 in the line up.

But the Muslim player refused to go to the drinks. Even refused to join the players drinking soft drinks because there is beer present.

The Muslim player therefore cannot talk to the captain, is dropped to no. 7 then later claims discrimination. Leaves the team and claims he cannot "integrate with the West".

-

Personally i don't think i find a religion as strict as Sikhism. I have a full beard and a turban. I carry the Kirpan on my person (Ceremonial Sword) and i refrain from eating meat/smoking/drinking alcohol.

Now i have many friends of different religions (and some who don't follow any) i don't segregate myself from them. I go to the pub with them and drink juice, and they never once offer me anything other. As they know my beliefs. Now i have no problem with them eating drinking what they choose. And i don't ever feel tempted to eat meat or drink.

So the thought of some people (muslims in this case) would show me that it's their lack of self control that prevents them from going into such places.

I can say i'm free from such desires, this is the wonder of the Shabad (Word of the Lord)

[AvarAllahNoor]

So we agree, in an odd way. The team wanted him to play, but they know that Islam is a barrier for him -- a rule suggesting he cannot associate himself with an alcoholic atmosphere. And the player knew that Islam was a barrier for him -- the rule that suggested against associating with alcohol.

In conclusion, we're both correct, oddly enough.

You'd think if you associated with such people, your own belief would rub of on them. No?

[Dahir]

You'd think if you associated with such people, your own belief would rub of on them. No?

Not really. I'd imagine a bigger group to have more power over one man.

[AvarAllahNoor]

Not really. I'd imagine a bigger group to have more power over one man.

Not if you've explained what your do's and dont's are. I find this to work Although i did find a couple of muslim lads persistance to try to convert me to Islam quite hilarious. We laugh about it even now amongst ourselves. After a while when people learn your atal 'Unshakeable' in your own faith they stop..

[Dahir]

Not if you've explained what your do's and dont's are. I find this to work Although i did find a couple of muslim lads persistance to try to convert me to Islam quite hilarious. We laugh about it even now amongst ourselves. After a while when people learn your atal 'Unshakeable' in your own faith they stop..

Could be. I guess I was thinking negatively.

[wilberhum]

I am kind of sick and tired after reading all these "integration of Muslims in western societies" articles.

what does integration really implying apart from rejecting the veil?
that its mandatory for a Muslim male or female to attend to dance clubs,rock concerts ,watch porn,have pre-marital sex to be accepted into the western society?

look I am confused.

what if a Muslim living in the UK or France refuses to do such things?will you keep him or her out?

It apears that the main problem is having no concept of that integration means let alone how to acheive it.

[Curaezipirid]

Personally i don't think i find a religion as strict as Sikhism. I have a full beard and a turban. I carry the Kirpan on my person (Ceremonial Sword) and i refrain from eating meat/smoking/drinking alcohol.

Now i have many friends of different religions (and some who don't follow any) i don't segregate myself from them. I go to the pub with them and drink juice, and they never once offer me anything other. As they know my beliefs. Now i have no problem with them eating drinking what they choose. And i don't ever feel tempted to eat meat or drink.

So the thought of some people (muslims in this case) would show me that it's their lack of self control that prevents them from going into such places.

I can say i'm free from such desires, this is the wonder of the Shabad (Word of the Lord)

This is an excellent basic stand point from within which to regard any issue of the integration of the Islamic community with any other. Ideally we will all become enabled to sustain that state of mind of being uneffected by environment. Then we also can learn that some of us are effected by environment at times, and to the degree of needing habitual reminders in the self regards, such as dress can provide: but at that the needful wearing of a veil by even one woman in a community causes that every women is right to so as those whom are not schooled into true belief are not able to identify whom among us is more effected by environment than another.

Many Australian Aborigines manifest an attitude as though becoming vastly effected when in fact they are rather marginally effected by the larger environment. But that is only when there is a knowable limit to the sustaining of acquiring the attitude of letting the environment give semblence of effecting. The posture is dangerous to try to falsify more so then even words for all persons. (Can anybody formulate words more truly when asking their spouse to type? I guess that is as fine as if during Prayer postures.) This is a totality of need to consider. How long can any person manifest being uneffected by the environment when there is no set time limit of the duration of a hardship been put in place.

What those whom want integration over and above other phenomena are causing, is that the removing of each veil that comes off is at an expense of a set quantity of knowable environmental consideration. That is, we each have a set quantity of such before we manifest ill health from. Unless, like Avarallahnoor, we are able to be unreceiptive by well practised self discipline. I have a five hour limit in any single difficult situation before I become distracted from immediate concerns.

The point is that integration is therefore a far easier task for myself to accomodate; but therefore, in Allah, I am accorded a greater responsiblity for enacting such tasks. As a person whom is familiar with Australian culture I can adequately communicate with brevity also, while an Arab or Pakistani, or African Muslim might be less able to discern the most suitable starting place for any need to integrate.

A bizarre thing occurred to me just the other evening. I got onto a public train and there was a person very angry at seeing me, in not being able to account himself against any Muslim. Very angry. It seemed that he had previously been deluded that he was being enabled to. He revelled in a bout of name calling, to which I just stared a bit wide eyed. Everybody on board was focussed upon him, but nobody was then yet showing any interest in the event. The ordinary Australian commuter life was simply regarding us both surreptitiously to see whom had who in the better account. The yelling man got louder and more frustrated in inablity to force me to accuse him. The Australians were impressed by this (I think that being Australian I was more afraid of the other passengers if it should happen that I accidentally accused the man: and so I focussed all my internal concentration upon not accusing him: it was hard work since there are shaytan whom try to project such upon me: but gives an explaination to my having been 'wide eyed'.)

Eventually he became intolerable to the other passengers and when he got off the train he punched the window near my head and shattered the outer sheet of glass. Then everybody had something to say to me about the event. The whole situation made me realise two significant facts: in Hijab persons in my own culture are not regarding me as culturally informed and so I have a peculiar perspective upon my own self (very advantageous in fact to learn the self by that method); and secondly there were a considerable number of persons aboard the train whom seem to have been previously experiencing being able to sustain a delusion of holding Islam as wronging them, but were now no longer able to so sustain. There was only one angry man. There was an Asian person whom got called a slope head, which painted the angry man as indiscriminately angry rather than at Muslims. There were two ordinary sort of kafir in tracksuits; and there was a bloke with all the physical signs about his biological appearance of being a true believer enabled through Aboriginal Australia. I swear that I witnessed him accept a further account in Allah, only through his witness of the event, and in accepting a full responsibility for the female kafir on board, evidenced by her eyes brightening suddenly in response to him. Clearly the man had some assistance in Allah and had learned to account well for himself. We discussed the matter until he touched upon his own projections against Islam and learned to account for. Then he made the point to me that Australian tax payers would be paying for the glass broken. This was being referred to in two contexts: the angry man was a kafir without any Australian culture yet born here, going on accent; I had my feet upon the seat in front of me and such had initially angered the man in his not being able to fault me at. My own reasoning is a bad back, and in that I have to face the fine if it arises. Yet the angry man broke the glass to cause the Australian bloke to get angry with me about damage to the train. In the long shot I accepted the glass to my account, but in regard for the other Australian fellow that he would readily have if I had not. I could have regarded that the damage to the soft furnishing is far less; but accepting the broken glass to my account I am accorded less ill reguard in having placed my feet on the seat.

It was like this sudden change occurred here in Brisbane and the ordinary Australian community suddenly started accounting any Muslim again like any other Human being whom is not within an Aboriginal Kinship system. It was a very illustrative situation for my self about the truth of our indigenous cultural right and strength. The other Australian was ordinarily a white mainstream Australian; but he actualised use of Shari'ah style accounting well, and in familiar associations. If he had reguarded me as an Australian he might have only joined in by mentioning my feet at the outset. I had not had that experience before of being watched by other Australians as though a foriegner; and I have been in veil now for two years already. The sad part of the story is, of course, that there were criminals whom falsified a semblence of being able to fault Islam, and which many Australians had fallen to.

The change had many other aligned coincidences of mass sudden change of the direction of popular culture. A road became damaged and all the shops complained to the government that not enough shoppers had driven into the city, and that exposed a large fear of low trade this Christmas! That aligned with immense stress being displayed among criminals previously cool calm and collected, and visibly less stress in the bulk of the population.

The world is changing my friends, at last the certain victory of every Soul whom Loves Earth is begining to be evidenced. Let us be all the more strict in our self discipline so as to live up the the honour of such evidence in our essential beliefs.

What is the lesson in all this for the integration debarcle there in other parts of the world?

Conditions need to have been set in place over a few generations for an occurrance like that I have witnessed. Since about 1787, I guess, when the empirical evidence of ships sailing down the coast became inescapable.

Perhaps an Australian awakening, (next is IpswichQLD this arvo?), will commence the labour necessary for that eventually required in places like Ireland. (at the Irish club they bags going last: the Irish here in Australia that is)

its a cold bright sunshiny day in the state of Queensland Australia today
and Eid al Fahr Mubarak to that

Alaikumuassalamu Warahmathuallahi Warabarakathauha

[Umar001]

With regards to the story of the Muslim Cricket Player.

If he knows that they have team talks which are crucial in deciding who plays, in a place where there is alchol and he rather not go there, then I guess that's something he should think about when joining, similar to if there was a compatition to eat the most susages, a person should consider that he is gona have to eat the meat

But if it was not a regular thing, i.e. the team talk and stratigic talk did not normally take place there then the manager dude shoulda thought of that and just had a drink with the lads and then next practice shoulda got in the changing rooms and spoke to them all, as normal. Thats provided the Muslim would share changing rooms lol

I dont get what is difficult, if a person knows a place wont accomodate for his needs then dont go there, maybe some might go and then just file a complaint and get money, well thats upto them, if the justice system allows that then who am I to complain.

But I find it compelling that some Muslims, complain and complain about certain things not being 'fair' and they seem to honestly feel let down and want to go court and do things, yet if they were living under sharia, others would have the same or similar circumstances and I dont think they'd even be able to go to courts to over turn the situation.

I cant wait till an islamic state comes, so some Muslims wont have an escuse to be in the Uk or something and then complain that they are not being treated fair.


Argh, I hate feeling like this.