Greetings, Ironbeard.
If you are interesting in furthering you knowledge about Christianity, you may find this thread helpful:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...hristians.html
Brother Woodrow kindly started it.
Peace
101 Questions about Christianity
1. If Jesus's mission was to the lost sheep of Israel, why was it confined to Palestine where only two of the original tribes had settled? Did that mean that Jesus had failed in his mission?
2. Why should Jesus specifically forbid, on the one hand, preaching the Gospel to the Gentiles (Matthew 7:6, 15:24, 26) and yet on the other, tell the disciples to teach all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost? (Matthew 28:19)
3. Why did Jesus prohibit the Gospel from being preached to the Gentiles during his ministry (Matthew 10:5, 7:6, 15:24-26) but after his 'resurrection' tell them to preach the Gospel to the whole world? (Mark 16:15)
If Jesus really had made the latter statement, why was there such a fierce debate within the early Church (and particularly between Peter and Paul) as to whether the Gospel should be preached to the Gentiles? (Acts 15:6-30)
4. Out of all the signs that Jesus could have given about himself, he chose to give the sign of Jonah: This generation is an evil generation; it seeks a sign but no sign shall be given to it except the sign of Jonah. (Luke 11:29, Matthew 12:39, Matthew 16) Jonah was swallowed alive by a whale and remained in its belly alive for three days. For Jesus to have properly fulfilled the prophecy, he would need to enter the tomb alive and come out alive. Why should Jesus give this, of all signs, if he was to die and be resurrected?
5. If Jesus's message was for the whole of mankind, why did he forbid his disciples to preach to the Gentiles? (Matthew 10:5-6)
6. When Jesus was asked what the only way was to true salvation, he replied: keep the Commandments (Matthew 19:17). The first of the Commandments was to believe in the Oneness of God (Exodus 20:3). Why did Jesus answer so if he believed in and was part of the Trinity? Why did he not refer to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost?
7. Jesus said that he had not come to change the Law of Moses (Matthew 5:17). The Law of Moses teaches that there is one God (Exodus 20:3). If Jesus was introducing the concept of Trinity, why did he not say that he was changing the Law of Moses or introducing a different understanding of it?
8. Jesus prophesied that men of his generation would not pass away without witnessing his second coming and the falling of stars (Mark 9:1, 13:30). Why was this prophecy unfulfilled? Why was it that Jesus did not return within the lifetime of his generation?
9. Why did Jesus forbid the disciples from calling people fools yet called the Jewish leaders with names like vipers and children of adultery? Is it conceivable that a Divine Being would behave in this way?
10. According to Luke, when the Jews tried Jesus they asked him Are you the son of God? Jesus replied you say that I am (Luke 22:70) which could mean: you say that I am but I do not. If his divinity was something he came to tell the world, why did he not plainly say yes instead of couching his answer in ambiguous terms?
11. In the Old Testament, the term Son of God was applied to David (Psalms 89:27), the nation of Israel (Exodus 4:22), the children of Israel (Psalms 82:6), and Solomon (1 Chronicles 22:10). Jesus also used it for the peacemakers (Matthew 5:9). If Jesus was referring to himself as the Son of God in the literal sense, why did he not make it clear that he was differentiating between a symbolic reference and a literal meaning of the term?
12. Jesus was the Messiah, the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies. He frequently made reference to himself as the suffering servant foretold in the Book of Isaiah (Matthew 8:17 & Isaiah 53:4; Luke 2:30 & Isaiah 52:10; Luke 22:37 & Isaiah 53:12). The Messiah of the Old Testament was, however, promised by God that he would not be killed (Psalms 34:19, Isaiah 53:10). How was it, therefore, that the Jews had succeeded in killing the Messiah if Jesus died on the cross?
13. If Jesus knew that Judas was going to betray him, why did he continue to permit him as a disciple? Why did he not tell the other disciples so that Judas could be excluded from his closest circle of followers?
14. If Jesus knew that one of his disciples would betray him, why should he say that all twelve disciples would sit upon twelve thrones? (Matthew 19:28)
15. If Jesus knew that he was to die on the cross, why did he spend all night praying in the Garden of Gethsemane seeking deliverance: Father if it is possible may this cup be taken from me? (Matthew 26:39)
16. Jesus had taught that man's prayers are answered (Matthew 21:22). Why was not Jesus's prayer answered in the Garden of Gethsemane? What effect would this incident have on the faith of his disciples and followers to see that a prayer had not been answered contrary to what Jesus had taught?
17. If Jesus believed that his prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane would not be heard, why did he tell his disciples earlier that prayers are answered?: Would any of you who are fathers give your son a stone when he asked for bread (Matthew 7:9-10) which means that God hears the prayers of man more than a father answers the wishes of his children and Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and it will be opened to you. And whatever you ask in your prayers, you will receive, if you have faith. (Matthew 21:22; John 11:41,42)
18. If Jesus's prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane was not to be heard, why was it something that he wanted the disciples to witness? If the prayer was not to be heard, what useful purpose does this story serve?
19. Why should Matthew, Mark and Luke all report (Matthew 26:39, Mark 14:36, Luke 22:42) that Jesus asked for the cup of suffering to be passed if possible yet John (John 18:11) reports that Jesus hastened for the crucifixion saying shall I not drink the cup the Father hath given me?
20. Why did Pontius Pilate just simply ignore his wife's plea to have nothing to do with Jesus on account of her bad dream? (Matthew 27:19) If the very mission of Jesus was to suffer death, why should God Almighty show a dream to Pilate's wife which would cause her to try and persuade her husband to release Jesus? Would not that appear to counter God's own plan?
21. If Pilate really wanted Jesus to die on the cross, why would he fix the crucifixion on a Friday evening knowing that the Jews would have to take him down before Sabbath and that such a little time on the cross was insufficient for him to die?
22. If Jesus knew all along that he was destined to be crucified to death (indeed if that was his purpose in life), why did he exclaim on the cross Eli, Eli Lama Sabachthani meaning my God my God why hast thou forsaken me? (Matthew 27:46)
23. If Jesus was about to die, how was he able to say in a clear loud and audible voice that he was thirsty? (John 19:28)
24. Why are Jesus's words on the cross: Eli, Eli Lama Sabachthani (Matthew 27:46) reported in their original Aramaic form? Could it be that Jesus's helpless cry left such a vivid impression of a man seemingly bereft of hope that anyone who heard them would remember the exact words?
25. Vinegar is often considered to have a stimulating effect, rather similar to smelling salts. Why, in Jesus's case, did it suddenly lead to his death? (John 19:29, 30)
26. How could an onlooker tell the difference between a man on the cross who had died and a man who had fainted (Mark 15:39) particularly when it is reported that it was dark at that time? (Mark 15:33, Matthew 27:45, Luke 23:44)
27. If Jesus was dead when he was removed from the cross, why did his body release blood and water, since blood does not flow at all from a dead body? (John 19:34)
28. Why did Jesus die before the other two who were crucified with him even though the legs of the other two were broken to hasten death? (John 19:32)
29. It is reported that dead saints came out of their graves and made themselves known to many (Matthew 27:52). When the Jews saw this, why did they not immediately profess faith in Jesus? Where did these saints go? Who did they see? Why is there no account of this story elsewhere other than in Matthew's Gospel?
30. If the above story of saints rising from the dead is not based on an actual historical event, what other statements are there in the Gospels which are not based on actual historical facts?
31. Jesus said that the killing of prophets ended with the killing of Zacharias (Matthew 23:35-36). How was it, therefore, that the Jews had succeeded in killing another prophet?
32. Crucifixion was meant to be an accursed death (Deuteronomy 21:23). If Jesus was crucified, did that mean he also suffered an accursed death?
33. Why was it that a Roman soldier was so readily prepared to allow Joseph (a subjected citizen) to take down Jesus's body from the cross without checking and without Joseph having any apparent lawful authority?
34. Why is there is no direct account by Joseph of Arimathea or Nicodemus that Jesus was dead when he was taken down from the cross? Surely, this eye-witness account would have settled the matter beyond dispute?
35. Why should Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus take so much trouble to recover the body of Jesus when this would have been the duty of the nearest relative?
36. Why did Pilate agree to release the 'body' to Joseph of Arimathea (a known Jew and follower of Jesus) if he was not sympathetic to Jesus?
37. Crucifixion was a slow death. It usually lasted several days. Death followed from exhaustion, inability to respire properly as a result of being in an upright position or attacks by wild animals. Why did Jesus, who was a fit and healthy man used to walking the countryside for long distances, die so quickly in only a matter of a few hours?
38. If Jesus really was expected to die in such a short time, why did Pilate express surprise at Jesus's death? (Mark 15:42-44)
39. Why would the Jews bribe the soldiers to say that Jesus's disciples had stolen the corpse whilst they (the soldiers) were asleep? If the soldiers had truly related this story, they might have been asked how they knew that the disciples had stolen the corpse if they were asleep?
40. Why did the Jews not go and check the tomb themselves? They had put much effort into getting Jesus crucified. A friend of Jesus had been allowed to take the body away. Why did they not visit the tomb before Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Jesus did?
41. Why did Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus not stay with Jesus in the tomb after taking down his body from the cross to witness the resurrection? Jesus had apparently told his followers that he would die and rise after three days. (Matthew 16:21, 17:23, 20:17-19) This report had even reached the Jews (Matthew 27:63). Why did not Joseph and Nicodemus remain with Jesus to witness the event?
42. Did the Jews really believe that Jesus had died? If so, why did they ask the Romans for a guard to be placed outside the sepulcher? Matthew says the Jews explained this by saying that Jesus's disciples could spread false rumors about him rising from the dead. However, if the Jews really believed this to be the reason for the request, why could they not have asked the disciples to produce the risen Christ as proof? If the disciples had then done so, the Jews could then presumably rearrest Jesus.
43. Why were the Roman authorities so disinterested about the apparent removal of the body if this is what the Jews were claiming?
44. Why was the stone moved from the tomb (Matthew 28:2) if it was a supernatural rising?
45. When Mary Magdalene and Mary the Mother of Jesus saw him, he was wearing gardener's clothing (John 20:15). Where did Jesus get these clothes from? His own clothes had been taken by the soldiers who had divided them drawing lots (John 19:23). It was not through Joseph of Arimathea or Nicodemus because they are only reported of having taken in herbs, aloes and a linen shroud (John 19:39, 40). What was the significance of Jesus wearing gardener's clothing (as opposed to normal clothing)? Was it meant to be a disguise? If so, for what purpose?
46. Why were the women who visited the tomb terrified if Jesus was dead (Mark 16:8)? What did they have to be terrified of if the Jews had succeeded in killing Jesus?
47. If Jesus could conquer death and rise from the dead, why did he fear seeing the Jews after the crucifixion? particularly as death had no more power over him? (Romans 6:9)
48. Why did Jesus disguise himself after the resurrection and appear only to the disciples? Surely, this was the great manifestation of his power and the fulfillment of the purpose of his creation. What was the purpose in keeping it all a secret now?
49. If Jesus was the risen Christ, why did he meet his disciples behind closed doors and not in the open as he used to? (John 20:19)
50. How many times did Jesus ascend to Heaven? Luke (23:43) states that Jesus told one of those crucified with him that he would be in Heaven that day with him. Does that mean that Jesus went up to Heaven after his death, came back to earth and then ascended to Heaven once more? According to John there appears to be yet another Ascension. When Mary Magdalene asked to touch him, Jesus forbade her saying that he had not yet ascended to the Father (John 20:17). Later Jesus appears to the disciples and actually invites Thomas to touch him, (John 20:27) which must mean that Jesus had ascended and returned. Thus, is it possible that there were three Ascensions?
51. If Jesus was God and Jesus was dead for three days, does that mean also that God (heaven forbid) was also dead for three days?
52. Why is it that there is not a single direct account of Jesus's life by any of the twelve disciples or anyone who knew him personally? Can the word of those who did not know him or have the opportunity to hear him personally vouch for the accuracy of some of the reported remarks?
53. How was it that the Gospel writers were able to report accurately Jesus's words, without committing them to memory or putting them on paper, some thirty to thirty-five years after his death before the first Gospel was written? Furthermore, given that:
(a) Those writing the Gospels did not hear the words directly from Jesus and it cannot, therefore, be said that the words left a lasting impression.
(b) They would have been passed on by word of mouth and therefore risked personal comment being added.
(c) There is no written record of Jesus's words in Aramaic (his spoken language) thus necessitating a translation at some stage. In the light of this, what weight can be placed on the reliability of some of the reported speeches? (Note this question does not relate to stories or parables since these can be more easily remembered.)
54. Why is it that Mark (the first written Gospel) is the shortest account when one would expect it to be the longest? Did the memories of later authors (e.g. John - written some 30-50 years later) became clearer with the passage of time?
55. If the Gospels are the word of God and the authors of the Gospels were divinely inspired, why are there so many contradictions in them? For example, why should God tell Mark that it was the third hour when Jesus was crucified (Mark 19:14) but tell John it was the sixth hour? (John 19:14). Why should God tell Matthew and Mark that the two who were crucified with Jesus reviled him (Matthew 27:44, Mark 15:32) but tell Luke that Jesus told one of them that he would be rewarded by being in Heaven with him that day? (Luke 23:39, 43) Why should God tell Matthew that the first ones to visit the sepulchre after the crucifixion were Mary Magdalene and the 'other' Mary (Matthew 28:1) but tell Luke it was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the Mother of James and the other women (Luke 24:10) and tell John that it was only Mary Magdalene? (John 20:1)
56. Why is it that there is so much confusion and disagreement between the Gospel writers over the account of the crucifixion and resurrection? Is it fair to say that nobody was entirely sure of what actually happened?
57. The author of Mark asserts that Jesus was taken up to Heaven and sat on the right of God (Mark 16:19). This remark could only come from Jesus himself or an eyewitness account. Since it was not Jesus who reported it, does that mean that the eyewitness actually went to Heaven and saw Jesus sitting at the right side of God? If so, was that person also taken to Heaven and brought back to report the incident?
58. The disciples are said to have witnessed the Ascension (Mark 16:19), Luke 24:50). This must have been the most incredible experience of their lives. Why is it that not one of them wrote a single word concerning it afterwards? Why is it that the only accounts related are by others who had no direct knowledge of the incident?
59. In the story of Jesus's birth, it is said that a star led the Three Wise Men to Jesus's birthplace. Is it not against the Laws of Nature for a star to travel in this way? Can the phenomenon be reconciled with our present day knowledge of astronomy?
60. If Jesus's central message was that of Trinity (a concept alien to the Old Testament), why did he not elaborate on the subject to explain the interrelationships clearly? Why did he leave it to Paul to explain?
61. Is it credible to say that if all the acts of Jesus in his life-time were transcribed on paper, the world could not hold the books which would be written? (John 21:25). Is it merely an exaggeration? If so, what other exaggerations exist?
62. If it is accepted, as it is by most scholars, that there have been additions, alternations and amendments to the original Gospels, what confidence can a reader have that a particular remark attributed to Jesus was not inserted later as an expression of the Christian faith at that time?
63. If Jesus was God, why did he repeatedly emphasize the importance of the unity of God? For example:
(a) Hear O Israel the first commandment is that Thy God is One and there is none other than He (Mark 12:28, 32, Matthew 22:34-40)
(b) I can do nothing on my authority, as I hear, I judge and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. (John 5:30, 31)
64. The Old Testament prophesied the coming of a 'Messiah'. This Messiah was never conceived as a divine figure. How did a prophetic figure become converted into a divine being?
65. If Jesus was claiming divinity, why did he place himself on an equal footing with everyone else? My Father and your Father, My God and your God. (John 20:27)
66. If Jesus was God, why did he forbid the reference of divinity to himself: Why call me good? Only God is good. (Matthew 19:16-17)
67. If Jesus was claiming divinity, why did he liken himself to the Judges and Prophets of the Old Testament who had also been called gods, but in a metaphorical sense? (John 10:34-36, Psalms 82:6). If Jesus was applying the term 'Son of God' in a literal sense, why would he give this reference from the Old Testament which was clearly referring to people as sons in a metaphorical sense?
68. Why should Jesus say he could do nothing of his own authority, if he was God? (John 5:30)
69. If Jesus was God, why did he not know who had touched him? (Mark 5:30)
70. If Jesus was God, why did he not know what was going to happen on the Day of Judgment? But of that day or that Hour no one knows, not even the Angels in Heaven, not the Son but only the Father. (Mark 13:32)
71. If Jesus was God, why would he say that he was sent by God? (John 6:29)
72. If Jesus was God, what need did he have to pray? (Mark 1:35, Luke 5:16)
73. If Jesus was God, why would he curse a fig tree when it had no fruit on it particularly as it was not the season for its bearing fruit? (Mark 11:12-14, Matthew 21:18-19)
74. When Zebedee asked that his two sons might sit on the right and left of Jesus, why did Jesus say that the power was not with him but only with God? (Matthew 20:23)
75. If Jesus was divine, why did he clearly refer to himself as a man (John 8:39-40) and separate himself from God in describing the relationship 'The only true God and Jesus Christ' (John 17:3)?
76. If Jesus was God and therefore omniscient, why did he allow himself to be tricked by Judas?
77. If Jesus was God, why did he die on the cross in a matter of a few hours when ordinary mortals usually lasted several days? If Jesus was weakened by bearing the sins of the whole world, why should he say that he was able to redeem the sins of the world?
78. Jesus is reported to have said: He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives him who sent me (Matthew 10:40, Luke 10:16, John 12:44). Who sent Jesus if he himself was God?
79. According to Christian tradition, Jesus was in hell for three days after his death. How does one reconcile this with Jesus's remarks on the cross to one of those crucified with him that today you will be with me in Paradise. (Luke 23:43)
80. If Jesus believed in and advocated the concept of original sin (i.e. that all children are born sinful) why did he say that unless a man received the Kingdom of Heavens as a child he would not enter it? (Mark 10:4-15). Why should he go to bless them instead of purifying them by baptism if that is what is required before a child can be cleansed of original sin?
81. Forgiveness is a cornerstone of Christian belief (Matthew 5:38-40). Is forgiveness the appropriate action in all instances? If so, would it mean that there could be no penal system under the Christian Law for punishing offenders?
82. If Jesus's teaching was intended for the entire world as a complete code for all mankind, why should Jesus confine it to one section of people -- the Jews only? (Matthew 10:5-6, Matthew 15:24)
83. If Jesus's teaching ended in Palestine, why is it that there are so many remarkable similarities between the reported life histories of Jesus and Buddha? These similarities include:
o Virgin birth
o Temptation by the Devil
o Resistance of the temptations
o Teaching by parables
o Injunction to love one's enemies
o Early followers consisting of small groups of disciples
o Death accompanied by an earthquake
(Note: Buddha lived approximately five hundred years before Jesus.)
84. If Jesus meant that he was literally the son of God, why should he confuse the issue by frequently referring to himself as The Son of Man a term from the Old Testament which did not imply divinity since the Son of Man (as understood in the Old Testament) was never a divine being?
85. If the Trinity existed since the beginning of time, were the Jews misled by all the prophets before Jesus in being told to believe in the Unity of God? If the Jews were not spiritually advanced to understand the complex concept of the Trinity, does that apply to the prophets also?
86. Why was it necessary for Jesus to die physically so that man could attain salvation? What significance does physical death have with spiritual life?
87. According to the Doctrine of Atonement, the sins of the guilty are redeemed by the death of Jesus. Jesus was sinless. How can the sins of the guilty be borne by the death of an innocent man? Is it divine justice to punish an innocent person for the crimes committed by the guilty?
88. If Jesus believed in the Doctrine of Atonement, why would he tell his disciples that if they forgave others, God would forgive them (Matthew 6:14, 15)? If Atonement forgives all sins, what further need is there to seek the forgiveness of others?
89. If, as according to Paul, man can do nothing by himself to attain salvation (Romans 3:24, 3:28, 9:11, 9:16, Galations 2:16), what is the point of obeying the commandments? (Mark 10:17-19, Luke 10:25, Matthew 19:16-20)
90. If Atonement forgives all sins, why did Jesus say that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven? (Matthew 12:31) Is there a distinction between forgivable and unforgivable sins? If so, how does one distinguish between the two?
91. If it is Jesus's death which forgive sins, and not any personal effort on the part of the sinner (such as carrying out good works, restraining from evil habits, etc.), what motive is there for a person to avoid sin and evil conduct?
92. If Jesus redeemed the sins of the world by his crucifixion, that could only atone for the sins of the world up to that point. What about sins after the crucifixion? If it also covers later sins, how does one reconcile that with Paul's remark that Jesus's sacrifice is for earlier sins and he cannot be crucified a second time (Hebrews 10:26, 66)
93. If belief in the resurrection and atonement is essential, how was it that Jesus forgave the sins of an adulteress even though she did not believe in him nor in his redemption? (Matthew 8:1-11)
94. Jesus taught his disciples to pray during his lifetime. He taught them also to pray after his death (Matthew 6:9-15). What further need is there to pray if Atonement forgives all sins?
95. Paul was to feature as a major teacher and expounder of Jesus's message. Why is there no reference, directly or indirectly, by Jesus to his work? Jesus refers to true and false prophets coming after him as well as the Spirit of Truth but why no reference to Paul?
96. If Paul's teaching was based on Jesus's words, why is not one word based on Jesus's parables, similitudes or the teachings of the Sermon on the Mount?
97. Jesus was raised as a Jew. Accordingly, he was circumcised, fasted, abstained from the flesh of swine and prayed. It was also repeatedly said that he had not come to change the Law of Moses (Matthew 5:17). By what authority, therefore, did Paul abolish all these practices? What indication did Jesus give that after his death these practices would no longer be necessary?
98. If salvation can only be attained by belief in Jesus's death and resurrection, why is there no reference to it whatsoever in the two greatest summaries of Jesus's teachings: The Sermon on the Mount and the Lord's Prayer?
99. All prophets live their lives as examples for others. If salvation is only through belief in the Doctrine of Atonement - and that matters more than anything else - why was it necessary for Jesus to demonstrate all the numerous acts of kindness, compassion, forgiveness, healing, mercy, love of his enemies, the condemnation of empty ritual, etc.? If all these actions were not the central message of Jesus, is it not true that the majority of his works which comprise the main parts of the Gospels are rendered utterly irrelevant?
100. If the return of the Prophet Elijah was to be fulfilled by another man (John the Baptist), why cannot the return of the Messiah (Jesus) similarly be fulfilled through another person? Is there any historical or religious record of the same prophet returning to this world?
101. Jesus prophesied that there would be true and false prophets in the future (Matthew 7:15-20). We know that there have been false prophets but, why, according to Christian tradition, have there not been any true prophets? Were they all false? If no true prophet was to appear, why did Jesus make this prophecy?
Note: All quotations are from the Revised Standard Version.
Greetings, Ironbeard.
If you are interesting in furthering you knowledge about Christianity, you may find this thread helpful:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...hristians.html
Brother Woodrow kindly started it.
Peace
In my experience most islamic criticisms of Christianity can be turned around against Islam, and the same can be said about Christian criticisms of Islam.
The two religions are more alike than either often cares to admit.
Hola Ironbeard,format_quote Originally Posted by Ironbeard
Gracias for your interest in our faith, I will (ojala) try to answer your questions to the best of my ability… but I do not think I can do them all at once so I will try to do one or two a day while my girls are sleeping. I think this thread will become very cluttered if we have discussions on all of my answers so if you have additional questions maybe we should create whole new topics? I am a Catholic which means sacred scripture and sacred tradition are both part of my beliefs and I will answer from both… it also means I have to requote all of your biblical quotes to the New American Bible translation because that is the only translation approved for liturgical use… RSV is not…
gracias
“But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew 15:24)format_quote Originally Posted by Ironbeard
“Lost sheep of the house of Israel” does not mean physically misplaced, but House of Israel does mean the Hebrews, so I see why you are confused that this might mean the lost tribes.
Jesus uses the phrase “Lost Sheep” many times in His ministry, it is always a reference to those people who have strayed from Gods path and it refers back to His “Parable of the Lost Sheep” here is one recounting of the Parable, I wish you to see that He means “sinners” when he says Lost Sheep:
Now that that is understood, let us look back at Matthew 15:24. It is part of the story of The Syrophoenician Woman, a Canaanite whose daughter was possessed, she asked Jesus for help and he responded with the above quote from Matthew 15:24. She responded by worshiping Him (bowing down and saying “Lord help me!”) He tested her again by telling her that what he was bringing she was not worthy of “it is not good to throw the childrens’ bread to the dogs” and she responded that even dogs eat at the feet of their masters… He showed her that the words He had said was a test of her faith “Then Jesus said to her, "O woman, your faith is great” and he healed her daughter “it shall be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed at once.”format_quote Originally Posted by Matthew 18: 7-14
Matthew 15:24 fulfills a function in the narrative, as the first test of faith for the woman. It is a rebuke of her advances, he is reminding her that the Messiah was predicted to come to the Jews, not anybody else… so she should have nothing to say to Him this is just like His comment that the bread he is offering is too good for her which is the second test.
But she passes the test when she says she, of herself, is not worthy except through her faith “Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters' table” so Jesus commends her for her faith in Him and her loyalty and he rewards her.
What we learn from this is that Jesus did indeed come to the Hebrews, just as the Messiah is meant to come to that nation. St. Augustine has a beautiful sermon about this specific aspect of the question, here is a link.
But he comes to them with a message for all mankind, and faith in Him just like the Canaanite woman brings us into His covenant.
So here is your question again:
The answer to your question, from the Catholic standpoint, is that you have misunderstood what Jesus meant by “I have come for the Lost Sheep,” which was a reference to a parable about sinners. But you understood that "the House of Israel" means the Hebrews... together this would have meant "I have come only for those who have gone astray who are Hebrews" but you misunderstood what the purpose that His quote served in the narrative. It was actually a test of her (a non-Hebrew) faith in Him, and not a true rebuke. This is supported by His pleasure in her faith and His eventual decision to heal her daughter because her (a non-Hebrew) faith in Him was so great.format_quote Originally Posted by Ironbeard
So the answer to the second part of your question is that he did not fail.
Dios te bendiga
Last edited by Jayda; 12-29-2006 at 02:47 PM.
Hola again ironbeard,
Here is the question I am answering:
Here are the passages you referenced:format_quote Originally Posted by ”ironbeard"
format_quote Originally Posted by ”Matthew 7:6”format_quote Originally Posted by ”Matthew 15:24”Andformat_quote Originally Posted by ”Matthew 15:26”
(this is called “The Great Commission”format_quote Originally Posted by ”Matthew 28:19”
Matthew 7:6 is not about the Great Commission, it is actually about giving the gospel to people that we know will deliberately mock and scorn it. If we give the gospel to people who we know for certain intend to “trample it under their feet” and then “tear us to pieces” we are assisting in deconsecrating something Holy.
We have as an example the words of the Holy Martyr St. Cyprian (of Carthage) addressing Demetrianus who was Proconsul of Africa;
Sacred Tradition upholds the correct interpretation of Matthew 7:6, that we may not bring scripture to those we know will treat it without dignity.format_quote Originally Posted by ”St. Cyprian”
Matthew actually goes on to explain in 7:7-8 that anybody who wishes to know God will not be denied, “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.” Even gentiles will not be turned down by the Lord, as was the case of the Syrophoenician we talked about in the answer to your first question, please see my answer in that post if you have more questions.
Matthew 15: 24, 26 is not actually talking about “the Great Commission” (the preaching of the gospels). As we discussed in the answer to 1, those specific comments were part of a test of faith Jesus was giving to a Canaanite woman who asked Him to heal her daughter. Her faith in Christ was strong and He healed the woman’s daughter.
Matthew 28:19 is what is called “the Great Commission” in which the disciples, who were previously during the life of Jesus Ministry commanded to not preach outside the confines of the nation of Israel (because the Messiah was sent to Israel), were told by the resurrected Jesus that His mission was complete, that He was leaving the world to go back to His Father in Heaven and that they were now to go and baptize all nations.
Okay so here is your question again:
You misunderstand Matthew 7:6 which is commanding us to keep Holy what is Holy by not giving the gospel to people who will deliberately mock, and degrade its Holiness… doing that makes us as blasphemous as them. Likewise you misunderstand Matthew 15:24, and 26 which are parts of a test of faith Jesus is giving to a non-Hebrew woman, she passes this test and is rewarded for her faith. You correctly understand Matthew 28:19 but I do not think you understand the background of it… (because your question accidentally stumbled on something partially true) that Jesus as Messiah came to the Jews just as predicted, but for the benefit of all men, He then sent out His disciples to all nations to act as His emissary.format_quote Originally Posted by ”ironbeard’
So the answer to your question is that despite the first passages you discussed do not actually mean what you are referring to there was a time when preaching to the gentiles was not allowed, namely when the disciples first became disciples following Jesus. This was because Jesus was the Messiah who had been sent (physically) to the Jews, so that he could help them fulfill their destiny as a nation of Priests. Because at that time the disciples were following Jesus as he walked the Earth they could not compromise His messianic mission by preaching outside Israel.
After Jesus had accomplished His work, He handed His ministry to the disciples and He sent the disciples out into the world to baptize all people and speak to all people. As Augustine shows, the disciples themselves fulfilled part of Jesus messianic mission because they were the Jews going out into the gentiles… they were fulfilling their duty as a nation of priests.
Dios te bendiga
Last edited by Jayda; 12-29-2006 at 04:44 PM.
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
It's not actually, judaism and islam are more similar than christianity is according to my understanding.
The reasons where they may be similar is because the message sent to Moses was a similar message sent to Jesus, and the message of Jesus was also a similar message which was revealed to Muhammad (peace be upon them all.) All prophets called to the worship of the Creator, the One God, without ascribing associates to God. Why would a messenger than claim that he is God himself, or that the people should worship him?
Peace.
gracias keltoi,format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
you might still be right, i do not know... i am just assuming the best. if i am wrong and these are just rhetorical questions mean to make scripture sound foolish then i am exactly what Matthew 7:6 warns us not to do... and i am committing blasphemy...
i hope ironbeard does not want to make me commit blasphemy
so i think maybe we are just finding out how naive i am...
gracias
You may be right that Judaism an Islam are closer in some respects - namely how to approach God by obeying food restriction, cleanliness and other laws.format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
But Pygoscelis makes a good point:
For every refutation between the two faiths there is a counter-refutation.
For every argument a counter-argument.
For every 'proof' in one holy book a counter-proof from the other holy book.
Hey, after 9 months of being a member her I finally came across sites such as answer-christianity ... only to find that there are also sites such as answer-islam ...
It is all out there! The debates are as old as our faiths! The discussions have been had by scholars and theologians for over a thousand years!!!
That should tell us something - namely that there is no easy conclusion.
Whatever it is that makes each of us choose one faith over another, it is more and beyond what people can capture in logic, refutations and human rationale.
peace
salam all, if anyone reads the gospels one will notice that each gospel account has a different version of one story of jesus, for instance a story in mark is found in the later gospels of matthew and luke to be changed, by changed they become better. mark was the source, and both matthew and luke borrowed from mark and simply changed things around, there is no such thing as matthew and luke being 2 different eye witness accounts, thats not true they simply borrowed from mark and changed stories around:
http://muslim-responses.com/The_Evol...tion_of_Jesus_
Hola again ironbeard,3. Why did Jesus prohibit the Gospel from being preached to the Gentiles during his ministry (Matthew 10:5, 7:6, 15:24-26) but after his 'resurrection' tell them to preach the Gospel to the whole world? (Mark 16:15)
If Jesus really had made the latter statement, why was there such a fierce debate within the early Church (and particularly between Peter and Paul) as to whether the Gospel should be preached to the Gentiles? (Acts 15:6-30)
These are the passages you mentioned
Matthew 10:5 “These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: "Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the (B)Samaritans;”
Matthew 7:6 “Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.”
Matthew 15:24-26 “But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, "Lord, help me!" And He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs."
Mark 16:15 “And He said to them, "(A)Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.” (The Great Comission)
And Acts 15:6-30 (this is very long so here is a link to a proper Catholic translation)
I think it is fairly obvious at this point that because you asked all of these questions at once… (which I am not saying is a bad thing) some of your misinterpretations of scripture have already been answered… Matthew 7:6 we discussed in my answer to your second question (link), is not referring to the Great Commission, it is about giving the gospel to those we know will deliberately degrade it, and if we do this we are committing blasphemy (see Cyprian’s answer found on my post in that link). Matthew 15: 24-26 we also discussed in my first answer. This too is not relevant for the question you are asking since it is not about bringing the Word it was a test of faith to a woman who requested Jesus help.
So that leaves Matthew 10:5, Mark 16:15 “The Great Commission” which requires further explanation, and Acts 15: 6-30 “The Council of Jerusalem”
Thank you for bringing up Matthew 10:5, you are correctly interpreting this scripture that it is Jesus telling the disciples not to preach to people outside Israel. Also I would like to add unlike the last two questions the first part of this question is based on something you correctly understand… Jesus did tell the disciples not to preach to the gentiles during His ministry, but after His Resurrection He told them to go out and make disciples of all nations.
Matthew 10:5 has a context, it is the gathering of the disciples for Jesus Ministry you may read the entire Chapter 10 entitled “The Twelve Disciples, Instructions for Service” with this link (otherwise it is too long for me to post)
What I want you to see is that Jesus is telling them that they have a journey ahead of them and they will do and see amazing things, “Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give.” That the journey will not be easy “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be (Y)shrewd as serpents and (Z)innocent as doves.” He tells them that the meaning of their discipleship is that they must sacrifice everything for him “And (BD)he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.” And he tells them their reward “And (BI)whoever in the name of a disciple gives to one of these little ones even a cup of cold water to drink, truly I say to you, he shall not lose his reward."”
The narrative continues from there with Matthew 11 “When Jesus had finished giving instructions to His twelve disciples, He departed from there (B)to teach and preach in their cities.” And onward into the story of Jesus and His disciples during His ministry.
So what I want you to see is that this is the beginning for Jesus and His disciples… now they are told exactly what Jesus, the Messiah, expects from them and what they can expect from this new life walking through Israel with Jesus. They are now servants of the Messiah, the Messiah who was sent to only one group, the lost sheep from the nation of Israel, the nation of Israel is meant to be a priestly nation, bringing God to all the gentiles.
This is exactly what Jesus did, he went to the Jews with a special message for them to bring to the World, and he chose Jews to fulfill their covenant with God by delivering His Word to all mankind… but only after His Messianic mission was complete. If he were to go and preach to all nations during the time of His life He would not be acting like the prophesied Messiah, who was supposed to come only to the Nation of Israel. So His message, Life and Teachings are for all people, but he came to the Jews first and he brought the message to the Jews in order for them to bring it to the rest of mankind… only after His messianic mission was complete did he order them to go and preach to all nations… He was physically leaving to go back to heaven, but the Jewish disciples he taught remained and he sent them out to bring His light to the rest of the world.
St. Augustine has a Sermon about this I will post the relevant sections.
The answer to the question that St. Augustine leaves you with is “the Jewish people,” Peter and all the disciples came from the Jews… they were Jews. The sermon continues with discussing Paul, who was also called and was also a Jew and then St. Augustine says this:Here arises a question out of these words; "If He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel, how came we from among the Gentiles into Christ's fold? What is the meaning of the so deep economy of this mystery, that whereas the Lord knew the purpose of His coming—that He might have a Church in all nations, He said that 'He was not sent, but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel'?" We understand then by this that it behoved Him to manifest His Bodily presence, His Birth, the exhibition of His miracles, and the power of His Resurrection, among that people: that so it had been ordained, so set forth from the beginning, so predicted, and so fulfilled; that Christ Jesus was to come to the nation of the Jews, to be seen and slain, and to gain from among them those whom He foreknew. For that people was not wholly condemned, but sifted. There was among them a great quantity of chaff, but there was also the hidden worth of the grain; there was among them that which was to be burnt, there was among them also that wherewith the barn was to be filled. For whence came the Apostles? whence came Peter? whence the rest?
So here is the First part of your question again:For to the Gentiles He went not Himself, but sent His disciples. And in this was fulfilled what the Prophet said; "A people whom I have not known has served Me." See how deep, how clear, how express the prophecy is; "a people whom I have not known," that is, to whom I have not exhibited My Presence, "has served Me." How? It goes on to say, "By the hearing of the ear they have obeyed Me:" that is, they have believed, not by seeing, but by hearing. Therefore have the Gentiles the greater praise. For the others saw and slew Him; the Gentiles heard and believed. Now it was to call and gather together the Gentiles, that that might be fulfilled which we have just now chanted, "Gather us from among the Gentiles, that we may confess to Your Name, and glory in Your praise," that the Apostle Paul was sent. He, the least, made great, not by himself, but by Him whom he once persecuted, was sent to the Gentiles, from a robber become a shepherd, from a wolf a sheep. He, the least Apostle, was sent to the Gentiles, and laboured much among the Gentiles, and through him the Gentiles believed. His Epistles are the witnesses.
The answer is that during His time on Earth Jesus was the Messiah promised to be sent to the Jewish people, when the disciples followed Him it was His ministry and He personally led it. It was not meant for Him to take His ministry beyond the confines of Israel since that is not what God had promised… He promised a Messiah to be sent to the Jews, to rekindle their purpose as Gods Priest nation to be sent out into the world and preach and be an example to all people.3. Why did Jesus prohibit the Gospel from being preached to the Gentiles during his ministry (Matthew 10:5, 7:6, 15:24-26) but after his 'resurrection' tell them to preach the Gospel to the whole world? (Mark 16:15)
When he completed His mission and gave His ministry to His Jewish servants the disciples He then gave them the command to go and take the message to all people… since His words and His works truly were for all people (that is why Jesus never turned down a Non-Jew that came to Him, it simply was not the time for Him to go to them) This was their Cross and this was the part that they had to take up and carry. The Messiah had come and gone and now the Ministry was in the hands of the disciples, as St. Augustine beautifully answers “For to the Gentiles He went not Himself, but sent His disciples”
Okay the second part of your question concerns the Council of Jerusalem… the issue there was not whether they should preach to gentiles it was where the gentile converts had to observe Jewish customs and things associated with that covenant (circumcision, diet, etc) the biggest issue was circumcision: “But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses." (Acts 15:5)
The Apostles decided that the gentiles did not have to keep all of the traditions and commandments of the Jews, including circumcision.
(Acts 15:19-21)format_quote Originally Posted by ”Apostolic Decree”
So you see as for the second part of your question which is:You misunderstood the nature of the argument between Paul and Peter…the argument was whether gentile converts had to keep certain traditions that Jews did… the Council decided that they did not. This was not about preaching the gospel to gentiles.If Jesus really had made the latter statement, why was there such a fierce debate within the early Church (and particularly between Peter and Paul) as to whether the Gospel should be preached to the Gentiles? (Acts 15:6-30)
gracias
Brother Sami, I have an excellent link for you:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...811332,00.html
Assalmualikum warhmathullahi warbarakathuhuformat_quote Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk
i don't wana argue but am sure brother IRONBEARD's intention was NOT like that! he is not like a person whom insults other religion's he has got respect brov!
Ma'assalama
Catholic Church no longer swears by truth of the Bible
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...811332,00.html
Another blow to Christianity indeed!THE hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church has published a teaching document instructing the faithful that some parts of the Bible are not actually true.
The Catholic bishops of England, Wales and Scotland are warning their five million worshippers, as well as any others drawn to the study of scripture, that they should not expect “total accuracy” from the Bible.
“We should not expect to find in Scripture full scientific accuracy or complete historical precision,” they say in The Gift of Scripture.
The document is timely, coming as it does amid the rise of the religious Right, in particular in the US.
Some Christians want a literal interpretation of the story of creation, as told in Genesis, taught alongside Darwin’s theory of evolution in schools, believing “intelligent design” to be an equally plausible theory of how the world began.
But the first 11 chapters of Genesis, in which two different and at times conflicting stories of creation are told, are among those that this country’s Catholic bishops insist cannot be “historical”. At most, they say, they may contain “historical traces”.
The document shows how far the Catholic Church has come since the 17th century, when Galileo was condemned as a heretic for flouting a near-universal belief in the divine inspiration of the Bible by advocating the Copernican view of the solar system. Only a century ago, Pope Pius X condemned Modernist Catholic scholars who adapted historical-critical methods of analysing ancient literature to the Bible.
In the document, the bishops acknowledge their debt to biblical scholars. They say the Bible must be approached in the knowledge that it is “God’s word expressed in human language” and that proper acknowledgement should be given both to the word of God and its human dimensions.
They say the Church must offer the gospel in ways “appropriate to changing times, intelligible and attractive to our contemporaries”.
The Bible is true in passages relating to human salvation, they say, but continue: “We should not expect total accuracy from the Bible in other, secular matters.”
They go on to condemn fundamentalism for its “intransigent intolerance” and to warn of “significant dangers” involved in a fundamentalist approach.
“Such an approach is dangerous, for example, when people of one nation or group see in the Bible a mandate for their own superiority, and even consider themselves permitted by the Bible to use violence against others.”
Of the notorious anti-Jewish curse in Matthew 27:25, “His blood be on us and on our children”, a passage used to justify centuries of anti-Semitism, the bishops say these and other words must never be used again as a pretext to treat Jewish people with contempt. Describing this passage as an example of dramatic exaggeration, the bishops say they have had “tragic consequences” in encouraging hatred and persecution. “The attitudes and language of first-century quarrels between Jews and Jewish Christians should never again be emulated in relations between Jews and Christians.”
As examples of passages not to be taken literally, the bishops cite the early chapters of Genesis, comparing them with early creation legends from other cultures, especially from the ancient East. The bishops say it is clear that the primary purpose of these chapters was to provide religious teaching and that they could not be described as historical writing.
Similarly, they refute the apocalyptic prophecies of Revelation, the last book of the Christian Bible, in which the writer describes the work of the risen Jesus, the death of the Beast and the wedding feast of Christ the Lamb.
The bishops say: “Such symbolic language must be respected for what it is, and is not to be interpreted literally. We should not expect to discover in this book details about the end of the world, about how many will be saved and about when the end will come.”
In their foreword to the teaching document, the two most senior Catholics of the land, Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O’Connor, Archbishop of Westminster, and Cardinal Keith O’Brien, Archbishop of St Andrew’s and Edinburgh, explain its context.
They say people today are searching for what is worthwhile, what has real value, what can be trusted and what is really true.
The new teaching has been issued as part of the 40th anniversary celebrations of Dei Verbum, the Second Vatican Council document explaining the place of Scripture in revelation. In the past 40 years, Catholics have learnt more than ever before to cherish the Bible. “We have rediscovered the Bible as a precious treasure, both ancient and ever new.”
A Christian charity is sending a film about the Christmas story to every primary school in Britain after hearing of a young boy who asked his teacher why Mary and Joseph had named their baby after a swear word. The Breakout Trust raised £200,000 to make the 30-minute animated film, It’s a Boy. Steve Legg, head of the charity, said: “There are over 12 million children in the UK and only 756,000 of them go to church regularly.
That leaves a staggering number who are probably not receiving basic Christian teaching.”
BELIEVE IT OR NOT
UNTRUE
Genesis ii, 21-22
So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept he took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh; and the rib which the Lord God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man
Genesis iii, 16
God said to the woman [after she was beguiled by the serpent]: “I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”
Matthew xxvii, 25
The words of the crowd: “His blood be on us and on our children.”
Revelation xix,20
And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had worked the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshipped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with brimstone.”
TRUE
Exodus iii, 14
God reveals himself to Moses as: “I am who I am.”
Leviticus xxvi,12
“I will be your God, and you shall be my people.”
Exodus xx,1-17
The Ten Commandments
Matthew v,7
The Sermon on the Mount
Mark viii,29
Peter declares Jesus to be the Christ
Luke i
The Virgin Birth
John xx,28
Proof of bodily resurrection
Refutations of the Bible/Christianity
Biblical Errors in Genesis
Genesis, the first book of the Bible, supposedly written by Moses, who had direct communication with God. Makes sense, because some of the events in there are supposed to have happened when only God was around, so we might expect this book to be correct. NOPE!
Genesis 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
Genesis 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.
Genesis 1:11-12, 26-27 Trees were created before man was created.
Genesis 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created.
Genesis 1:20-21, 26-27 Birds were created before man was created.
Genesis 2:7, 19 Man was created before birds were created.
Genesis 1:24-27 Animals were created before man was created.
Genesis 2:7, 19 Man was created before animals were created.
Genesis 1:26-27 Man and woman were created at the same time.
Genesis 2:7, 21-22 Man was created first, woman sometime later.
Genesis 1:28 God encourages reproduction.
Leviticus 12:1-8 God requires purification rites following childbirth which, in effect, makes childbirth a sin. (Note: The period for purification following the birth of a daughter is twice that for a son.)
Genesis 1:31 God was pleased with his creation.
Genesis 6:5-6 God was not pleased with his creation.
(Note: That God should be displeased is inconsistent with the concept of omniscience.)
Genesis 2:4, 4:26, 12:8, 22:14-16, 26:25 God was already known as "the Lord" (Yahweh or Jehovah) much earlier than the time of Moses.
Exodus 6:2-3 God was first known as "the Lord" (Yahweh or Jehovah) at the time of the Egyptian Bondage, during the life of Moses.
Genesis 2:17 Adam was to die the very day that he ate the forbidden fruit.
Genesis 5:5 Adam lived 930 years.
Genesis 2:15-17, 3:4-6 It is wrong to want to be able to tell good from evil.
Hebrews 5:13-14 It is immature to be unable to tell good from evil.
Genesis 4:4-5 God prefers Abel's offering and has no regard for Cain's.
2 Chronicles 19:7, Acts 10:34, Romans 2:11 God shows no partiality. He treats all alike.
Genesis 4:9 God asks Cain where his brother Abel is.
Proverbs 15:3, Jeremiah 16:17, 23:24-25, Hebrews 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees everything. Nothing is hidden from his view.
Genesis 4:15, Deuteronomy 32:4, Isaiah 34:8 God is a vengeful god.
Exodus 15:3, Isaiah 42:13, Hebrews 12:29 God is a warrior. God is a consuming fire.
Exodus 20:5, 34:14, Deuteronomy 4:24, Exodus 5:9, 6:15, 29:20, 32:21 God is a jealous god.
Leviticus 26:7-8, Numbers 31:17-18, Deuteronomy 20:16-17, Joshua 10:40, Judges 14:19, Ezekiel 9:5-7 The Spirit of God is (sometimes) murder and killing.
Numbers 25:3-4, Deuteronomy 6:15, 9:7-8, 29:20, 32:21, Psalms 7:11, 78:49, Jeremiah 4:8, 17:4, 32:30-31, Zephaniah 2:2 God is angry. His anger is sometimes fierce.
2 Samuel 22:7-8 (KJV) "I called to the Lord; ... he heard my voice; ... The earth trembled and quaked, ... because he was angry. Smoke came from his nostrils. Consuming fire came from his mouth, burning coals blazed out of it."
Ezekiel 6:12, Nahum 1:2, 6 God is jealous and furious. He reserves wrath for, and takes revenge on, his enemies. "...who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? His fury is poured out like fire, and rocks are thrown down by him."
2 Corinthians 13:11, 14, 1 John 4:8, 16 God is love.
Galatians 5:22-23 The fruit of the Spirit of God is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.
Genesis 4:16 Cain went away (or out) from the presence of the Lord.
Jeremiah 23:23-24 A man cannot hide from God. God fills heaven and earth.
Genesis 6:4 There were Nephilim (giants) before the Flood.
Genesis 7:21 All creatures other than Noah and his clan were annihilated by the Flood.
Numbers 13:33 There were Nephilim after the Flood.
Genesis 6:6, Exodus 32:14, Numbers 14:20, 1 Samuel 15:35, 2 Samuel 24:16 God does change his mind.
Numbers 23:19-20, Isaiah 15:29, James 1:17 God does not change his mind.
Genesis 6:19-22, 7:8-9, 7:14-16 Two of each kind are to be taken, and are taken, aboard Noah's Ark.
Genesis 7:2-5 Seven pairs of some kinds are to be taken (and are taken) aboard the Ark.
Genesis 7:1 Noah was righteous.
Job 1:1,8, 2:3 Job was righteous.
Luke 1:6 Zechariah and Elizabeth were righteous.
James 5:16 Some men are righteous, (which makes their prayers effective).
1 John 3:6-9 Christians become righteous (or else they are not really Christians).
Romans 3:10, 3:23, 1 John 1:8-10 No one was or is righteous.
Genesis 7:7 Noah and his clan enter the Ark.
Genesis 7:13 They enter the Ark (again?).
Genesis 11:7-9 God sows discord.
Proverbs 6:16-19 God hates anyone who sows discord.
Genesis 11:9 At Babel, the Lord confused the language of the whole world.
1 Corinthians 14:33 Paul says that God is not the author of confusion.
Genesis 11:12 Arpachshad [Arphaxad] was the father of Shelah.
Luke 3:35-36 Cainan was the father of Shelah. Arpachshad was the grandfather of Shelah.
GE 11:26 Terah was 70 years old when his son Abram was born.
Genesis 11:32 Terah was 205 years old when he died (making Abram 135 at the time).
Genesis 12:4, Acts 7:4 Abram was 75 when he left Haran. This was after Terah died. Thus, Terah could have been no more than 145 when he died; or Abram was only 75 years old after he had lived 135 years.
Genesis 12:7, 17:1, 18:1, 26:2, 32:30, Exodus 3:16, 6:2-3, 24:9-11, 33:11, Numbers 12:7-8, 14:14, Job 42:5, Amos 7:7-8, 9:1 God is seen.
EX 33:20, John 1:18, 1 John 4:12 God is not seen. No one can see God's face and live. No one has ever seen him.
Genesis 10:5, 20, 31 There were many languages before the Tower of Babel.
Genesis 11:1 There was only one language before the Tower of Babel.
Genesis 15:9, Exodus 20:24, 29:10-42, Leviticus 1:1-7, 38, Numbers 28:1-29, 40 God details sacrificial offerings.
Jeremiah 7:21-22 God says he did no such thing.
Genesis 16:15, 21:1-3, Galatians 4:22 Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac.
Hebrews 11:17 Abraham had only one son.
Genesis 17:1, 35:11, 1 Chronicles 29:11-12, Luke 1:37 God is omnipotent. Nothing is impossible with (or for) God.
Judges 1:19 Although God was with Judah, together they could not defeat the plainsmen because the latter had iron chariots.
Genesis 17:7, 10-11 The covenant of circumcision is to be everlasting.
Galatians 6:15 It is of no consequence.
Genesis 17:8 God promises Abraham the land of Canaan as an "everlasting possession."
Genesis 25:8, Acts 7:2-5, Hebrews 11:13 Abraham died with the promise unfulfilled.
Genesis 17:15-16, 20:11-12, 22:17 Abraham and his half sister, Sarai, are married and receive God's blessings.
Leviticus 20:17, Deuteronomy 27:20-23 Incest is wrong.
Genesis 18:20-21 God decides to "go down" to see what is going on.
Proverbs 15:3, Jeremiah 16:17, 23:24-25, Hebrews 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees everything. Nothing is hidden from his view.
Genesis 19:30-38 While he is drunk, Lot's two daughters "lie with him," become pregnant, and give birth to his offspring.
2 Peter 2:7 Lot was "just" and "righteous."
Genesis 22:1-12, Deuteronomy 8:2 God tempts (tests) Abraham and Moses.
Judges 2:22 God himself says that he does test (tempt).
1 Corinthians 10:13 Paul says that God controls the extent of our temptations.
James 1:13 God tests (tempts) no one.
Genesis 27:28 "May God give you ... an abundance of grain and new wine."
Deuteronomy 7:13 If they follow his commandments, God will bless the fruit of their wine.
Psalms 104:5 God gives us wine to gladden the heart.
Jeremiah 13:12 "... every bottle shall be filled with wine."
John 2:1-11 According to the author of John, Jesus' first miracle was turning water to wine.
Romans 14:21 It is good to refrain from drinking wine.
Genesis 35:10 God says Jacob is to be called Jacob no longer; henceforth his name is Israel.
Genesis 46:2 At a later time, God himself uses the name Jacob.
Genesis 36:11 The sons of Eliphaz were Teman, Omar, Zepho, Gatam, and Kenaz.
Genesis 36:15-16 Teman, Omar, Zepho, Kenaz.
1 Chronicles 1:35-36 Teman, Omar, Zephi, Gatam, Kenaz, Timna, and Amalek.
Genesis 49:2-28 The fathers of the twelve tribes of Israel are: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Zebulun, Issachar, Dan, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Joseph, and Benjamin.
Revelation 7:4-8 (Leaves out the tribe of Dan, but adds Manasseh.)
Genesis 50:13 Jacob was buried in a cave at Machpelah bought from Ephron the Hittite.
Acts 7:15-16 He was buried in the sepulchre at Shechem, bought from the sons of Hamor.
salam all, Jesus in the bible said he had a god, if this is not CLEAR PROOF THAT hes not god then what is!
http://muslim-responses.com/Jesus_ha...sus_has_a_God_
This is such a joke. People who copy and paste are such losers. Think for yourself, and watch me refute your points. I can't take the bashing of others using lies:
So... Are you saying God cannot make light without the sun?Genesis 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
Genesis 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.
No, in Chapter 1:11-12:Genesis 1:11-12, 26-27 Trees were created before man was created.
Genesis 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created.
11And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
It does not say every tree was created, God in Ch. 2 creates more trees.
G2:4-9
4These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
5And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
The passage says:Genesis 1:20-21, 26-27 Birds were created before man was created.
Genesis 2:7, 19 Man was created before birds were created.
19And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
It is saying that God out of the ground created them earlier and now is bringing them to Adam to be named.
See above for the differences of Ch. 2 descriptions of events from before and then what happend.Genesis 1:24-27 Animals were created before man was created.
Genesis 2:7, 19 Man was created before animals were created.
Read this:Genesis 1:26-27 Man and woman were created at the same time.
Genesis 2:7, 21-22 Man was created first, woman sometime later.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith#...27s_first_wife
Encouragement, and the fact that it is a sin is unrelated.Genesis 1:28 God encourages reproduction.
Leviticus 12:1-8 God requires purification rites following childbirth which, in effect, makes childbirth a sin. (Note: The period for purification following the birth of a daughter is twice that for a son.)
He was pleased with Adam and Eve and the first creations, there offsprings are the sinners and therefore are the ones who he is unpleased with.Genesis 1:31 God was pleased with his creation.
Genesis 6:5-6 God was not pleased with his creation.
(Note: That God should be displeased is inconsistent with the concept of omniscience.)
The verses in question:Genesis 2:4, 4:26, 12:8, 22:14-16, 26:25 God was already known as "the Lord" (Yahweh or Jehovah) much earlier than the time of Moses.
Exodus 6:2-3 God was first known as "the Lord" (Yahweh or Jehovah) at the time of the Egyptian Bondage, during the life of Moses.
2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
Your examples make no sense:
In Genesis 12:8 is says:
8 And he removed from thence unto a mountain on the east of Bethel, and pitched his tent, having Bethel on the west, and Hai on the east: and there he builded an altar unto the LORD, and called upon the name of the LORD.
Nowhere is he called Jehova. The name he calls upon is "God almighty" obviosuly.
No where does it say he will die the day he eats the fruit:Genesis 2:17 Adam was to die the very day that he ate the forbidden fruit.
Genesis 5:5 Adam lived 930 years.
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
You sho your lack of brain power because what it says is basically "when you eat this the day you do, you will surely die" as in YOU WILL DIE AT A POINT IN TIME.
Adam did die, because he ate from the tree. Many say Adam would not have died ever is he did not eat from it.
Can it not be both wrong and immature?Genesis 2:15-17, 3:4-6 It is wrong to want to be able to tell good from evil.
Hebrews 5:13-14 It is immature to be unable to tell good from evil.
It can be dangerous and stupid to jump off a cliff... Is that a contradiction?
God likes his offering better. He likes both of them equally. As you said he likes the OFFERING. Not the person.Genesis 4:4-5 God prefers Abel's offering and has no regard for Cain's.
2 Chronicles 19:7, Acts 10:34, Romans 2:11 God shows no partiality. He treats all alike.
The point of asking is not because he does not know, it is because he wants Cain to admit his wrong doing.Genesis 4:9 God asks Cain where his brother Abel is.
Proverbs 15:3, Jeremiah 16:17, 23:24-25, Hebrews 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees everything. Nothing is hidden from his view.
God is everything in Christian belief so God can be all those things.Genesis 4:15, Deuteronomy 32:4, Isaiah 34:8 God is a vengeful god.
Exodus 15:3, Isaiah 42:13, Hebrews 12:29 God is a warrior. God is a consuming fire.
Exodus 20:5, 34:14, Deuteronomy 4:24, Exodus 5:9, 6:15, 29:20, 32:21 God is a jealous god.
Leviticus 26:7-8, Numbers 31:17-18, Deuteronomy 20:16-17, Joshua 10:40, Judges 14:19, Ezekiel 9:5-7 The Spirit of God is (sometimes) murder and killing.
Numbers 25:3-4, Deuteronomy 6:15, 9:7-8, 29:20, 32:21, Psalms 7:11, 78:49, Jeremiah 4:8, 17:4, 32:30-31, Zephaniah 2:2 God is angry. His anger is sometimes fierce.
2 Samuel 22:7-8 (KJV) "I called to the Lord; ... he heard my voice; ... The earth trembled and quaked, ... because he was angry. Smoke came from his nostrils. Consuming fire came from his mouth, burning coals blazed out of it."
Ezekiel 6:12, Nahum 1:2, 6 God is jealous and furious. He reserves wrath for, and takes revenge on, his enemies. "...who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? His fury is poured out like fire, and rocks are thrown down by him."
2 Corinthians 13:11, 14, 1 John 4:8, 16 God is love.
Galatians 5:22-23 The fruit of the Spirit of God is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.
What stupidity, very simple... Cain went away and Lords presence was gone, not because he could not be found or was well hidden but because God had no concern for him.Genesis 4:16 Cain went away (or out) from the presence of the Lord.
Jeremiah 23:23-24 A man cannot hide from God. God fills heaven and earth.
The verse says:Genesis 6:4 There were Nephilim (giants) before the Flood.
Genesis 7:21 All creatures other than Noah and his clan were annihilated by the Flood.
Numbers 13:33 There were Nephilim after the Flood.
33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.
They were sons of Anak. Who were really big. Not Nephilim.
Genesis 6:6 says: 6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.Genesis 6:6, Exodus 32:14, Numbers 14:20, 1 Samuel 15:35, 2 Samuel 24:16 God does change his mind.
Numbers 23:19-20, Isaiah 15:29, James 1:17 God does not change his mind.
Exodus 32:14 says: 14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Numbers 23:17-19 shows God did not contradict. Balak did!
17 And when he came to him, behold, he stood by his burnt offering, and the princes of Moab with him. And Balak said unto him, What hath the LORD spoken?
18 And he took up his parable, and said, Rise up, Balak, and hear; hearken unto me, thou son of Zippor: 19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
The verses refer to two of each to be taken and then another verse says 7 of a certian kind are to be.Genesis 6:19-22, 7:8-9, 7:14-16 Two of each kind are to be taken, and are taken, aboard Noah's Ark.
Genesis 7:2-5 Seven pairs of some kinds are to be taken (and are taken) aboard the Ark.
For example, I say bring 2 pairs of shoes, and then say bring 5 more pairs of the first pair you brought.
God asks him to save more of a certain kind after ordering him to get some more. No contradiction, just God saying brin more of that. Thanks.
I often ask for a refill.
Romans 3:10 says: 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:Genesis 7:1 Noah was righteous.
Job 1:1,8, 2:3 Job was righteous.
Luke 1:6 Zechariah and Elizabeth were righteous.
James 5:16 Some men are righteous, (which makes their prayers effective).
1 John 3:6-9 Christians become righteous (or else they are not really Christians).
Romans 3:10, 3:23, 1 John 1:8-10 No one was or is righteous.
That means as he is writing there is not one righteous. That does not mean there was never righteous.
The two quotes refer to before and after a huge amount of rain has come. sigh...Genesis 7:7 Noah and his clan enter the Ark.
Genesis 7:13 They enter the Ark (again?).
So God can hate people who do something and still do it. God in Christian tradition is all powerful.Genesis 11:7-9 God sows discord.
Proverbs 6:16-19 God hates anyone who sows discord.
In Islam Allah hates other pretend God or "idols" yet Allah is a God. Therefore, he hates other humans things that emulate Allah.
Very simple. He can do it, but you can't.
He is not the author the people brought it upon themselves and wrote there own fates by there actions.Genesis 11:9 At Babel, the Lord confused the language of the whole world.
1 Corinthians 14:33 Paul says that God is not the author of confusion.
Should I go on or not? Most of the New Testament says it is a New covanent of God so according to Christians the Old Testament laws do not matter, so they aren't contradictions but changes according to Christians.
Therefore, I will stop since I don;t have the time or energy to continue refuting your claims.
Please respond if you wish to mine, but since all you are usefull for is copy and pasting, i'm not sure you ahve the capacity to respond.
Last edited by ManchesterFolk; 12-29-2006 at 09:22 PM.
Excellent article.
Bible is not a scientific book about an evolution. Or chemistry. Or law. Or medicine. Or driving cars. It is a book about God and us. There is nothing shocking or new (at least for most Christians) in this statement.
I have already refuted half of your "bible errors" post. Go check.format_quote Originally Posted by Yaqub Sulayman
I don;t have the time to refute the other half, nor the caring to since you did nothing more than copy and paste and there is no point in convincing an ignoramus.
In another thread, someone (a Christian) said that Muslims don't fully appreciate God's mercy and forgiveness. That got me thinking.
Correct me if I'm wrong anywhere below; I'm no scholar.
In Christianity, all your sins are forgiven if you say you believe in the Christian concept of Isa (Jesus). Looking at this from one angle, it 's quite attractive, the idea of such a Forgiving God (assuming you choose to ignore the question as to why such a forgiving God would need to sacrifice an innocent son - na'aaoozobillah - to forgive mankind's sins) . Indeed, this concept brings many to Christianity, and is one of the main reasons many devout Christians are devout (I probably shouldn't say that - how would a devout Muslim know? - but what the heck).
But looking at it from another angle, isn't God, along with being extremely Merciful, Absolutely Fair and Just? I'm pretty sure that's what Christianity preaches.
How is it fair that someone who's raped and murdered all his life, can say and believe in a couple of sentences, and end up in the same heaven as the nun who's abstained from many of the world's pleasures throughout her life? Does the nun not deserve to be rewarded for her devoutness? Although it seems all warm and nice and forgiving if you look at it from the murderer's point of view, but it's very unfair if you look at it from the nun's point of view.
The Qur'an clearly speaks about levels of heaven (in Surah Waqiah (number 55), for instance). The more good deeds you perform in this world, the higher the heaven you gain entry to. This to me seems to be the just way.
Does the Bible speak about, directly or indirectly, levels of heaven? If not, how do you solve the above conundrum?
Extending that, if someone rapes my daughter, and escapes punishment in this world, is it fair that he should get away scot-free in the Hereafter as well and end up in the same Heaven as me just by saying and believing in a few sentences? Again, looking at it from the rapists point of view, it's all warm and fuzzy, but from my point of view, it's extremely unjust.
Islam, like Christianity, teaches that Allah is Extremely Merciful and Forgiving. Yet, Islam also teaches that inspite of this, if I wrong someone, I will not be forgiven until and unless that person forgives me. Again, to me, this seems to me to be the just way.
Isn't is unfair that people are given blanket forgiveness for the wrongs they've done to other people?
Sorry for the long post. Maybe there are obvious answers to these that I'm overlooking.
Hide
Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks