Can Germany learn to live with Islam?
By Roger Hardy
BBC Islamic affairs analyst
Lale is 32 and wears a bright pink headscarf. She studied law, but has had to take a job in a call-centre - where a woman with a headscarf can be heard but not seen.
She would like a better job, she says, but many employers just don't want to know.
"It's very difficult," she told me. "You never really feel part of society. You feel alienated."
Lale is one of Germany's 3.3 million Muslims - about 4% of the population.
Most are, like her, of Turkish descent.
Look at the German media, and the issues which come up in relation to Muslims are no different to those elsewhere in Europe.
Headscarves. "Honour" killings. Education. Unemployment. Security fears. German-ness
Yet Germany has its own characteristics which set it apart from its neighbours.
One is a conception of "German-ness" based on blood and ethnicity. This has meant that, for most of the last 40 years, immigrants from Turkey have found it hard to gain German citizenship.
Another is the Verfassungsschutz (Office for the Protection of the Constitution).
This is the rough equivalent of Britain's MI5 and the American FBI.
It monitors extremists, including Islamist groups.
Claudia Schmid, who runs the organisation's Berlin branch, told me why even non-violent Islamists are deemed to be a threat.
"Our task is to inform the public and the state institutions about groups which are trying to change the fundamental values of our constitution.
"These groups can function and promote their ideas. But they can't expect to get money from the state if they want to destroy essential, fundamental elements of our constitution."
The Verfassungsschutz - part of the interior ministry - keeps a close eye on Islamist groups such as the Muslim Brotherhood and its Turkish counterpart, Milli Gorus.
To belong to these groups, or even associate with them, is to risk being denied German citizenship or access to government funding - as Lale discovered to her cost.
When she is not at the call-centre, Lale works as a volunteer with a Muslim youth group.
Because it worked with Arab and Turkish Islamist groups, its state funding was cut off.
It needs a new generation to change things - maybe you need twenty years
Lale, German Muslim
"We are doing a good job," says Lale. "The problem is that there is always suspicion from the politicians. They say, 'We like your projects - but can we really trust you?'"
The 'Muslim Test'
Trust, or lack of it, lies at the heart of the problem.
Take, for example, the way some of Germany's provincial states set tests for citizenship.
A test introduced in the state of Baden-Wuerttemberg is popularly known as the "Muslim test".
One sensitive question - says journalist Erkan Arikan, himself a second-generation German of Turkish descent - is about gay rights.
"You've found your son is homosexual and he comes to you and says, 'Dad, I want to marry a German homosexual guy'. So how do you react?
"Do they expect that I will beat up my son, or do a kind of 'honour' killing? This is really ridiculous." Dialogue
Change is in the air, and not soon enough for young German Muslims like Erkan or Lale.
In September last year, the government organised the German Conference on Islam.
This high-profile event in Berlin was hosted by Interior Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble and brought together state officials and representatives of the main Muslim organisations.
Riem Spielhaus, a young German Muslim academic - daughter of an Egyptian father and a German mother - is a member of one of the working groups which the conference set up.
"I think the conference is very important for Germany and for Germany accepting Muslims as part of the citizens of Germany.
"The interior minister started the conference by proclaiming that Muslims are part of Germany - and I think that was a very, very important signal that we hadn't had for forty years."
The conference set in train a process of dialogue.
It also served to put pressure on Muslim groups to sink their differences.
Four Muslim organisations - including two Turkish groups which for decades have been bitter rivals - are creating a new umbrella body.
Lale wants to believe all this is a step in the right direction. But she is not expecting quick results.
"It needs a new generation to change things. Maybe you need twenty years."
It is a tricky situation from the average German's point of view.
On the one hand you don't want to discriminate. You want all to feel welcome.
But on the other hand there is the very real fear that the Muslims will try to change things and force their ways. The fear isn't completely unfounded, given how often you hear Muslims plainly stating domination (through peaceful means usually, but not always) as their goal.
Why do Turkish immigrants want to go to Germany? Shouldn't they rather go to I don't know... Turkey.
If you are going into a community largely dominated by another culture, you should expect a lot of fanatical racism and intolerance. That's why you should be focused with rebuilding your own country rather than moving to another one and allowing yourself to become the victim.
North and South America should have the only countries that should be tolerant of other cultures since they were founded by immigrants from other countries.
attention seekers.makes them feel important by bashing Muslims.ever since the 9/11 attacks people will believe anything against Muslims.I refuse to believe every 4 million Muslim in the Fatherland is like the way they describe.
wannabes ,EU nations are.attention ******.that includes the Dutch,the Danes and the ****ed Aussies.
attention seekers.makes them feel important by bashing Muslims.ever since the 9/11 attacks people will believe anything against Muslims.I refuse to believe every 4 million Muslim in the Fatherland is like the way they describe.
wannabes ,EU nations are.attention ******.that includes the Dutch,the Danes and the ****ed Aussies.
Don't want hate then don't cause hate. Don't want to be associated with terrorism, then don't associate with terrorists. Words of wisdom my friend.
By the way it actually wasn't muslims that bombed the Twin Towers? It was actually the Republican Regime that paid and made a deal with al-Queda operatives to bomb the Twin Towers. This is sort of like the hitman thing. Al-Queda is the hitman paid by Cheney to attack America in only certain valueless areas to get America and the rest of the world to attack al-Queda. What else could explain why Bush and Cheney aren't even interested in what al-Queda has been doing in Afghanistan? All their forces are primarily in Iraq, right? Seems a lot of conspiracy work is being dealt behind the American people's back like before.
The reason why Bush is taking little interest with Afghanistan right now is because of his Vice-President's pact with Bin Laden.
Don't want hate then don't cause hate. Don't want to be associated with terrorism, then don't associate with terrorists. Words of wisdom my friend.
By the way it actually wasn't muslims that bombed the Twin Towers? It was actually the Republican Regime that paid and made a deal with al-Queda operatives to bomb the Twin Towers. This is sort of like the hitman thing. Al-Queda is the hitman paid by Cheney to attack America in only certain valueless areas to get America and the rest of the world to attack al-Queda. What else could explain why Bush and Cheney aren't even interested in what al-Queda has been doing in Afghanistan? All their forces are primarily in Iraq, right? Seems a lot of conspiracy work is being dealt behind the American people's back like before.
The reason why Bush is taking little interest with Afghanistan right now is because of his Vice-President's pact with Bin Laden.
This is exactly the kind of stuff that creates Islamaphobia.
This is exactly the kind of stuff that creates Islamaphobia.
Actually this is the sort of thing that gets rid of Islamaphobia.
By associating Cheney as the cause for terrorism in the United States, you have eliminated the strict muslim factor, which would make Islam less violent than it is associated. The real threat is Cheney himself, who isn't a muslim.
Your response is the same as saying validating the existence of extraterrestrials makes you an extraterrestrialaphob.
Actually this is the sort of thing that gets rid of Islamaphobia.
By associating Cheney as the cause for terrorism in the United States, you have eliminated the strict muslim factor, which would make Islam less violent than it is associated. The real threat is Cheney himself, who isn't a muslim.
Your response is the same as saying validating the existence of extraterrestrials makes you an extraterrestrialaphob.
It is not Cheney who "Makes Islam Violent" as you imply.
It is interesting that you know he isn't a Muslim. You and the rest of the world.
So what is your point?
This is exactly the kind of stuff that creates Islamaphobia.
It depends which way you look at it - to some people, it may appear that muslims are making a desperate attempt to avoid the finger of blame, while to others, it would maybe take away their own islamophobic feelings harboured inside them, as Darkseaid said.
It is not Cheney who "Makes Islam Violent" as you imply.
You are right. Cheney doesn't openly speak about Islam as a violent religion. That's active conservative christian groups, angry muslim activity, and Fox News.
Each one has its own part in making Islam violent.
Angry Muslims storming after cartoon images makes the direct association of violence.
This is then increased by active conservative christian groups that continue to play down on Islam.
And then you have Fox News which is fueled by those conservative christian groups to continue the spreaded tone and to make it publically acknowledge throughout the country.
But you see this is a doggy dog world and when you do something it can bring down your entire religion, community, culture, nation, or family (depending on how it is associated when it is brought out on the public).
It is sort of like how certain chemicals can boast the reaction of other chemicals make, thus making them more powerful.
It is interesting that you know he isn't a Muslim. You and the rest of the world.
It is interesting to know that you aren't taking any medication to tone down that anger of yours.
So what is your point?
You weren't paying any attention, because that is what you say when you type out that statement.
"So what is your point?" (Translated) = "I have no idea as to what you are talking about."
Perhaps I should rephrase my statements so you can understand them better.
format_quote Originally Posted by omar_2133
It depends which way you look at it - to some people, it may appear that muslims are making a desperate attempt to avoid the finger of blame, while to others, it would maybe take away their own islamophobic feelings harboured inside them, as Darkseaid said.
I am just saying that we shouldn't be so quick to blame muslims for 9/11 when it was the government that prepared, insisted, and paid for the whole event to take place.
You don't blame the hitman for the kill. You blame the guy that paid the hitman for the kill.
And besides if muslims were trying to actually attack America. They would have bombed the white house, the capital, and then the Pentagon (without the pentagon knowwing in advance). They could have done it if they had wanted. The reason why they didn't was because they were paid to attack specific targets or make an attempt to attack specific targets with one target being an exact are to officially struck.
The United States government had advance warning and it could have kept all suspected people off board or launch fighters to follow those airplanes and strike them down if anything unexpected would have occured. That is what Clinton would have done.
But you see Bush and Cheney want us involved in a war. And the only way for them to get the American people involved in a war is to have at least one building officially struck in a manner that would anger the world and insure their supremacy over the world. And that's exactly what took place when the twin towers were struck.
There is no advantage to striking them for al-Queda. What advantage could there be in striking America and then having America attack and liberate their control over Afghanistan. They would lose more than they could gain. Militarize people that can cordinate an attack like they can aren't that stupid. They are stupid not to have tried on attacking the white house. But they aren't stupid to have realized the result wouldn't benefit them? So why did they do it? Because they were paid. People around the world are greedy and so with the right price anyone would do just about anything.
It's very difficult, You never really feel part of society. You feel alienated.
This, I am sure, is a true statement. If she chooses to adhere to religious practices (like wearing a hajaf) which will immediately distinguish her from the greater German society, she will "never really feel part of society". Duh. That seems a foolish complaint to me.
Is anyone even remotely surprised by this considering the history of Germany in the 20th Century? It is a bit like playing soccer in a cow pasture then complaining when you step on a cow pie.
Now, if she shed the social and religious practices of her homeland, dressed like a local, spoke fluent German, ate German food, drank German beer, understood all the inside jokes, went to a public school and still didn't feel a part...that would be a legitimate complaint, because that would imply naked racism.
You are right. Cheney doesn't openly speak about Islam as a violent religion. That's active conservative christian groups, angry muslim activity, and Fox News.
Each one has its own part in making Islam violent.
Angry Muslims storming after cartoon images makes the direct association of violence.
This is then increased by active conservative christian groups that continue to play down on Islam.
And then you have Fox News which is fueled by those conservative christian groups to continue the spreaded tone and to make it publically acknowledge throughout the country.
But you see this is a doggy dog world and when you do something it can bring down your entire religion, community, culture, nation, or family (depending on how it is associated when it is brought out on the public).
It is sort of like how certain chemicals can boast the reaction of other chemicals make, thus making them more powerful.
It is interesting to know that you aren't taking any medication to tone down that anger of yours.
You weren't paying any attention, because that is what you say when you type out that statement.
"So what is your point?" (Translated) = "I have no idea as to what you are talking about."
Perhaps I should rephrase my statements so you can understand them better.
I am just saying that we shouldn't be so quick to blame muslims for 9/11 when it was the government that prepared, insisted, and paid for the whole event to take place.
You don't blame the hitman for the kill. You blame the guy that paid the hitman for the kill.
And besides if muslims were trying to actually attack America. They would have bombed the white house, the capital, and then the Pentagon (without the pentagon knowwing in advance). They could have done it if they had wanted. The reason why they didn't was because they were paid to attack specific targets or make an attempt to attack specific targets with one target being an exact are to officially struck.
The United States government had advance warning and it could have kept all suspected people off board or launch fighters to follow those airplanes and strike them down if anything unexpected would have occured. That is what Clinton would have done.
But you see Bush and Cheney want us involved in a war. And the only way for them to get the American people involved in a war is to have at least one building officially struck in a manner that would anger the world and insure their supremacy over the world. And that's exactly what took place when the twin towers were struck.
There is no advantage to striking them for al-Queda. What advantage could there be in striking America and then having America attack and liberate their control over Afghanistan. They would lose more than they could gain. Militarize people that can cordinate an attack like they can aren't that stupid. They are stupid not to have tried on attacking the white house. But they aren't stupid to have realized the result wouldn't benefit them? So why did they do it? Because they were paid. People around the world are greedy and so with the right price anyone would do just about anything.
<fake British accent> You're having us on...right? </fake British accent>
I am part British and I hate the British. There are so many wrongful things they have done.
1) Establishing the 13 colonies that would later become the United States. And the United States in return would retain much of its British culture (another Britain if you will).
2) Establishing colonies in Africa like South Africa. These colonies as they became countries would establish their own problems.
3) Attacking the United States as it began its war towards independence instead of just giving the Americans their seats in Parliament.
4) Establishing the dominion that would later become Israel.
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