THis time i would like to highlight on the fact that the world wasnt created by some "BANG" or sum kind of chemical crap.... which doesnt make sense at alll!!!! Science says that the BIG BANG occured because of two chemicals-im not sure which onez though but my point is that how did the chemicals gets there? Someone must have made the chemicals? and by the way ISLAM SAYS THAT THEIR WAS NO BIG BANG!!!!!!!!!
One little story:
A Shaykh (Im not sure if it was Shaykh Hamza Yusuf) once was talking with this guy...who didn't believe in God and all he believed was in nature and humans. So the guy who i believe was an atheist (NO OFFENCE) invited this Muslim Scholar Shaykh Hamza Yusuf to a debate about this topic of how the world was created. So Shaikh said that come on this day, meet me at this place and at this time.
THe atheist guy got their b4 time, but shaikh wasn't their yet for the debate. So the guy got a bit mad because it was like an hour passed from the time which Shaikh fixed. After some time Shaikh arrived, and the guy told shaikh like everyone else that wouldv'e done... that dont u have any sense of how precious time is... and SHaikh explained that it wasnt my fault i got here late. You wont believe wot had happened on my way to this debate.
THe guy asked "Wot Happened?"Shaikh said that "the bridge which connected that part of the town and this part of the town was broken. So i went down near the shore to see if their were any boats their... but it was really quite and hardly saw anyone. All of a sudden i heard sum funny noises from behind me, and i looked back and saw that a tree is cutting it's own branches and saw that the wood which dropped one after the other was forming a sort of a shape, and then I saw that the tree had made a boat for me to sail on and the amazing bit is that as soon as i sat in the boat it started rowing itself till i got to this part of the town."
The Guy then said "I dont believe you, how can that be?"
THe Shaikh then said: "Well you know wot? I just told u that a small thing like one single tree created a boat for me but u believe that the whole world was created by itself- now u tell me how can that be possible?"!!!!!!!!!!!![/ :applaud:[/B]
Last edited by Taalib-e-'Ilm; 01-08-2005 at 12:00 PM.
The Prophet said, "Nobody who enters Paradise likes to go back to the world even if he got everything on the earth, except a Mujahid who wishes to return to the world so that he may be martyred ten times because of the dignity he receives (from Allah)."
That;s very interesting brother but how do you explain this verse from our holy Qur'an?:
In Surah AL-ANBIYA chapter number 21 verse number 30
30. Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?
Doesn't this imply the big bang? I've heard that story before. I agree that the world wasn't created by itself but Allah (SWT) made the big bang happen and thus the universe was created.
Hey, don't sweat I was just pointing that out. Perhaps I'm wrong anyway and I interpreted the verse in the wrong way.
Indeed Allah (SWT) knows best.
"I spent thirty years learning manners, and I spent twenty years learning knowledge."
Science says that the BIG BANG occured because of two chemicals
Not true, All the matter in the universe is made up of two chemical compounds hydrogen and helium. And it is suspected that this came as a result of the big bang (Not Proven). We do not yet know what caused the big bang.
and by the way ISLAM SAYS THAT THEIR WAS NO BIG BANG!!!!!!!!!
Then Islam is wrong. Or, was reffering to a different "Big Bang". It is a proven fact that the big bang occured (indeed it's rewarding find won the two scientists who discovered it the Nobel Peace Prize). Science had long worked on the equation E=Mc Square. It was taken that Energy could create matter and visa versa. Science predicted to support this Matter a big bang must have occured. World religions said "No", not just Islam. After all you yourself are made up of millions of atoms, yet if we took just a small handfull and "destroyed" them, a nuclear explosion would occur. If you account for the ammount of matter in the universe, you, mankind, tables, Planets, TV, Dirt, rain, Stars everything you can touch and feel. It is all made up of the same atoms. That is the same matter. So, if a few atoms can create a nuclear explosion the energy required to make the matter in the universe must be phenominally beyond our understanding. This said, you would hear the echoes of such a massive explosion. And we can both hear it and see it.
A Shaykh (Im not sure if it was Shaykh Hamza Yusuf) once was talking with this guy...who didn't believe in God and all he believed was in nature and humans. So the guy who i believe was an atheist (NO OFFENCE) invited this Muslim Scholar Shaykh Hamza Yusuf to a debate about this topic of how the world was created.
Calling someone an Atheist is not offensive, unless he is a religous person then I would agree.
and this part of the town was broken. So i went down near the shore to see if their were any boats their... but it was really quite and hardly saw anyone. All of a sudden i heard sum funny noises from behind me, and i looked back and saw that a tree is cutting it's own branches and saw that the wood which dropped one after the other was forming a sort of a shape, and then I saw that the tree had made a boat for me to sail on and the amazing bit is that as soon as i sat in the boat it started rowing itself till i got to this part of the town."
The Guy then said "I dont believe you, how can that be?"
THe Shaikh then said: "Well you know wot? I just told u that a small thing like one single tree created a boat for me but u believe that the whole world was created by itself- now u tell me how can that be possible?"!!!!!!!!!!!![/
now u tell me how can that be possible?"!!!!!!!!!!!![/
Because Shaikh was claiming to have been 1 hour late. This is not enough time for the evolutionary process. Additionally, it is impossible to evolve from a tree to a boat, since a boat is not a living organism in it's own right. An interesting note to add, is that he probably would have produced 2 or 3 mutated cells, a living organism in it's own right. If this living cell succesfully reproduces itself and continues to reproduce, we would call this cancer. Similarly, a singel celled "bacterium" every once in a while creates a "mutation", again, some mutations go on to become recognised as a bacterium given time to continue reproducing every 20 minutes, 2, 4, 8, 16, 24, 48, etc etc. Within a few weeks we are talking a phenominal ammount, but still every 20 minutes the figure will double. Who "created" this new bacterium? This is not a question, please don't try to answer it.
Despite the fact that the Qu'ran is not an book of science but a book of guidance, it still contains some scientific realities and it encourages us to reflect on them if we doubt the Word of Allah SWT.
One of these scientific signs is the creation of the Heavens & earth.
"Haven't the unbelievers seen that the heavens and the earth were joined together (in one singularity), then we clove both of them asunder.” (21:30)
This is also known as the Big Bang model. So brother Taalib-e-'Ilm, -- sayin' that the Qu'ran rejects the Big Bang theory is incorrect.
It's interestin' that root accepts the Big Bang theory since the Big Bang theory is more bendin' towards the existence of God than old concept of materialist philosophy, "it's created from non-existence".
The renowned atheist philosopher Antony Flew said: Notoriously, confession is good for the soul. I will, therefore, begin by confessing that the Stratonician atheist has to be embarrassed by the contemporary cosmological consensus. For it seems that the cosmologists are providing a scientific proof of what St. Thomas contended could not be proved philosophically; namely, that the universe had a beginning. So long as the universe can be comfortably thought of as being not only without end but also without beginning, it remains easy to urge that its brute existence, and whatever are found to be its most fundamental features, should be accepted as the explanatory ultimates. Although I believe that it remains still correct, it certainly is neither easy nor comfortable to maintain this position in the face of the Big Bang story
just to verify abt the BIG BANG THING I SAID COZ BEFORE I WROTE IT I ASKED AN AALIM CLASS STUDENT WHO LEARNT IT FROM HIS USTADH THAT BIG BANG WAS HARAAM-- or i think he probably meant that to believe that it all happened by itself is haraam-- we all make mistakes
It's interestin' that root accepts the Big Bang theory since the Big Bang theory is more bendin' towards the existence of God than old concept of materialist philosophy, "it's created from non-existence".
It's interestin' that root accepts the Big Bang theory
Sorry, I accept the big bang. Not the theory of a Big Bang! to which their are a few, including creation. I only subcribe to the fact that we know their was a "Big Bang", a loud noise!!!
Why is it we expect the "end" of the universe to be a single point! How has it come to be. many moons ago we thought their was only 1 planet, their's an infinate number. Then one Sun, same thing Infinate, 1 Solar System, 1 Galaxy billions upon billions of em. Everytime we predict one unique expectation within the universe we find infinate numbers. So who's to say we don't live in 1 universe amongst infinate numbers of universes, Maybe our universe is like a bubble in bathtub of soapy water, bubble a universe. open\Close\multi\ universes are all "theory" one subscribes to a theory as the most probable. Until Science proves it as a fact, such as the big bang. (In that all we know their was a big noise and it comes from a central point)!
The renowned atheist philosopher Antony Flew said:
Atheism is not a club! It is a word to describe a person who One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods. As to why that is, Allah as a word: Muslim name for the one and only God. We simply don't subscribe to your theory of God. Not that in the end we will not find a creator, it is still a probabilty. A long shot, but still possible. Like death, The atoms of my body cannot be destroyed, they will turn to dust withn the planet . My DNA lives on (for now). Only a few billion years from now, if man has survived as a species, the planet will be boiled up and my atoms may well head off back into the universe from where my atoms came from in the first place. And no doubt Muslim's will be re-united with loved ones. (I presume).
Sorry, I accept the big bang. Not the theory of a Big Bang! to which their are a few, including creation. I only subcribe to the fact that we know their was a "Big Bang", a loud noise!!!
Peace,
So accordin' to you; you only acknowledge the fact that there was a 'big crunch' but do not speculate the origin of that bang?
Why is it we expect the "end" of the universe to be a single point! How has it come to be. many moons ago we thought their was only 1 planet, their's an infinate number. Then one Sun, same thing Infinate, 1 Solar System, 1 Galaxy billions upon billions of em. Everytime we predict one unique expectation within the universe we find infinate numbers. So who's to say we don't live in 1 universe amongst infinate numbers of universes, Maybe our universe is like a bubble in bathtub of soapy water, bubble a universe. open\Close\multi\ universes are all "theory" one subscribes to a theory as the most probable.
There is not even one scientific evice that supports the multiverse theory. It's only a scenario cast upon the waters. Our universe contains a large amount of evidence in favour intelligent design which is the most plausible theory thus far. More sensible than the pseudo-science "Evolution".
Until Science proves it as a fact, such as the big bang. (In that all we know their was a big noise and it comes from a central point)!
Even though you do not believe in the elobrated version of the Big Bang theory, it's however, the most acceptable theory
today about the creation of the universe. And since you professed to be a man of science, I cannot see the logic why you reject it?
Atheism is not a club! It is a word to describe a person who One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods. As to why that is, Allah as a word: Muslim name for the one and only God. We simply don't subscribe to your theory of God. Not that in the end we will not find a creator, it is still a probabilty. A long shot, but still possible. Like death, The atoms of my body cannot be destroyed, they will turn to dust withn the planet . My DNA lives on (for now). Only a few billion years from now, if man has survived as a species, the planet will be boiled up and my atoms may well head off back into the universe from where my atoms came from in the first place. And no doubt Muslim's will be re-united with loved ones. (I presume).
Nor did I claim to be. From my observation, the vast majority of atheists tend to believe in any theory that contradicts the existence of God (i.e. evolution, multiverse etc). I think I've to agree with the famous french philosopher named Francis Bacon who siad: "a little knowledge of science makes you an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes you a believer in God."
So accordin' to you; you only acknowledge the fact that there was a 'big crunch' but do not speculate the origin of that bang
?
No not according to me, but Scientific proof
Of course I speculate upon theory, I just don't call theory fact....
The theory of creationism is that you are already here, thus proof you was created - Sorry, I don't buy this as scientific fact you are wrong to assume that intelligent design is in anyway accepted as fact, for it is not. We just don't know. Even more so Science knows something is wrong, in fact it's predicting the discovery of "Dark Matter" which has every potential in discovering some home truths, some of which we don't like on both sides.
Our universe contains a large amount of evidence in favour intelligent design
Utter nonsense, you have no more evidence to support intelligent design, than multiverse theories. You have no or little knowledge upon dark matters effects and laws within the universe.
Even though you do not believe in the elobrated version of the Big Bang theory, it's however, the most acceptable theory
today about the creation of the universe. And since you professed to be a man of science, I cannot see the logic why you reject it?
Oh, I beleive a few theories and all as plausable as the next including creationism. You just won't find me quoting theory as fact. Crationism is a science by which you try to prove your theory by disproving rival theories. I don't consider this science....... And a hypthosis upon theory is not factual today, tomorrow or next year. I personally beleive that when Science discovers it's predicted find of dark matter, and since it predicts it this will change and disprove a lot of theories out their.
Of course I speculate upon theory, I just don't call theory fact....
The theory of creationism is that you are already here, thus proof you was created - Sorry, I don't buy this as scientific fact
This is simply incorrect and demonstrates your inadequate knowledge regardin' Islamic creatonism. Don't confuse Biblical creatonism with the Islamic creatonism.
Dr. Maurice Bucaille has covered and compared the Biblical creatonism and the Islamic creatonism with Science. And you might be suprised with the findings.
you are wrong to assume that intelligent design is in anyway accepted as fact, for it is not. We just don't know. Even more so Science knows something is wrong, in fact it's predicting the discovery of "Dark Matter" which has every potential in discovering some home truths, some of which we don't like on both sides.
Nor did I claim that ID was accepted as a fact. I specifically stated "theory" that is supported with a vast amount of scientific evidence.
Fact remains that ID is the most logical theory of the phenomena in nature and that God has created all living things.
on a site note, do you believe in the pseudo-science named Evolution?
Utter nonsense, you have no more evidence to support intelligent design, than multiverse theories. You have no or little knowledge upon dark matters effects and laws within the universe.
Actually, the multiverse theory is not even based on one scientific evidence let alone a few. It's merely an another speculation brought forth by those who proclaim that this universe was created by "chance".
Let's cite a few examples of that support the ID theory:
"Biologists' investigation of DNA has shown, by the almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which are needed to produce [life], that intelligence must have been involved"
Based on his calculations, Led Adleman of the University of Southern California in Los Angeles has stated that one gram of DNA can store as much information as a trillion compact discs. Gene Myers, a scientist employed on the Human Genome Project, has said the following in the face of the miraculous arrangements he witnessed:
"What really astounds me is the architecture of life… The system is extremely complex. It's like it was designed… There's a huge intelligence there."
Modern science has revealed the existence of an "intelligence pervading the universe,
Gerald Hoeder writes in "The Hidden Face of God" :
"A single consciousness, a universal wisdom, pervades the universe. The discoveries of science, those that search the quantum nature of subatomic matter, have moved us to the brink of a startling realization: all existence is the expression of this wisdom. In the laboratories we experience it as information that first physically articulated as energy and then condensed into the form of matter. Every particle, every being, from atom to human, appears to represent a level of information, of wisdom."
Harun Yahya writes:
"Scientific research into both the functioning of the cell and the subatomic particles of matter has revealed this fact in an indisputable manner: Life and the universe were brought into being from nothing by the will of an entity possessed of a superior mind and wisdom. There is no doubt that the possessor of that knowledge and mind that pervade the universe at all levels is Almighty Allah. Allah reveals this truth in the Qur'an:"
Both East and West belong to Allah, so wherever you turn, the Face of Allah is there. Allah is All-Encompassing, All-Knowing." (Qur'an, 2:115)
This is simply incorrect and demonstrates your inadequate knowledge regardin' Islamic creatonism.
No, you cannot say that. True, I hold a different opinion. But please don't tell me my opinion on this is a lack of knowledge regards Islamic creationism.
I dislike the notion of "Intelligent design" being so complex how could it evolve. It's like debating the "Fire cracking beatle". Complexity is not a supporting arguement for scientific facts.
Fact remains that ID is the most logical theory of the phenomena in nature and that God has created all living things.
it was once said that the most logical theory was that life could not exist without oxygen or sunlight. Wrong then, and in the same context of creationism can be just as wrong. I said this before, please don't ask me to swallow scientific theory as scientific fact. It's dangerous. The ONLY credible evidence creationists have is that they exist, the only proof they bring to the table is scientific fact's proving other theories (fire-cracking beatle, Hybrid Species, etc etc.
Let's cite a few examples of that support the ID theory:
"Biologists' investigation of DNA has shown, by the almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which are needed to produce [life], that intelligence must have been involved"
Based on his calculations, Led Adleman of the University of Southern California in Los Angeles has stated that one gram of DNA can store as much information as a trillion compact discs. Gene Myers, a scientist employed on the Human Genome Project, has said the following in the face of the miraculous arrangements he witnessed:
"What really astounds me is the architecture of life… The system is extremely complex. It's like it was designed… There's a huge intelligence there."
Again, your using the "complexity" arguement. When are you going to bring some facts......
A single consciousness, a universal wisdom, pervades the universe. The discoveries of science, those that search the quantum nature of subatomic matter, have moved us to the brink of a startling realization: all existence is the expression of this wisdom. In the laboratories we experience it as information that first physically articulated as energy and then condensed into the form of matter. Every particle, every being, from atom to human, appears to represent a level of information, of wisdom."
Harun Yahya writes:
"Scientific research into both the functioning of the cell and the subatomic particles of matter has revealed this fact in an indisputable manner: Life and the universe were brought into being from nothing by the will of an entity possessed of a superior mind and wisdom. There is no doubt that the possessor of that knowledge and mind that pervade the universe at all levels is Almighty Allah. Allah reveals this truth in the Qur'an:"
Both East and West belong to Allah, so wherever you turn, the Face of Allah is there. Allah is All-Encompassing, All-Knowing." (Qur'an, 2:115)
Let's step aside from your complex words. What this "Muslim Scientist"!! was actually talking about, is the means by which atoms form very complex structures. It is this complex structure of atoms that they are talking about. And again, he is drawing a theory based on "Complexity", this debate of complexity cannot be stated as a fact at this time. Though the subject matter is complex, you can draw a parallel with the "Watchmakers" watch being so complex that it required a creator. IT DOES NOT PROVE CREATIONISM at this point.
All this supposadly "Evidence" does not take into consideration for 1 second "dark matter" and Scientist's and religion would do well to consider this point.
The difference between me and you is that I acknowledge creationism as still a possibility. Do you accept evolution as being possible.
may I ask you a few questions?
How old is this planet?
How long has man been on this planet?
Do you beleive Dinasaurs existed?
Do you see it possble that life was brought to this planet by comets\meteorite?
Just out of interest so we may attempt to measure the divide between our theories?
All this supposadly "Evidence" does not take into consideration for 1 second "dark matter" and Scientist's and religion would do well to consider this point.
The difference between me and you is that I acknowledge creationism as still a possibility. Do you accept evolution as being possible.
Either you deliberately fail to reflect on what I said or you do not want to consider what I stated by lookin' at the references (i.e. Qu'ran, Bible and science book). Unfortunaley, this is also the same method used in the previous thread.
For the sake of argumentation, let's assume that the "dark matter" is considerd as a fact and [exists]. The physicists argue that in the "dark matter", there is a another universe that has its own rules of physics that would appear bizare to us. And that there are other civilizations dwelling in that universe that are maybe similiar to mankind. Strangely enough, this could be talking about the Jinns since they were created before mankind (bear in mind that the [dark matter] theory suggests that it came in to existence beforeo ur own matter)
In addition, the "dark matter" theory suggests that this universe will ultimately collapse because of the gravitational effect caused by the presence of this extra mass. Hmm, interestin' -- accordin' to "dark matter", the universe will someday end!
On that day We shall roll up the heavens like a scroll rolled up for books. As We originated the first creation, so We shall bring it forth again. It is a promise (binding) upon Us. Truly We shall fulfill it (as We promised it). (21:104)
How old is this planet?
The theory of general relativity explains that time passes slower at God's Throne than on Earth.
Your Guardian-Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, then He established Himself on the throne [of authority]: He draweth the night as a veil o’er the day, each seeking the other in rapid succession: He created the sun, the moon, and the stars, [all] governed by laws under His command. Is it not His to create and to govern? Blessed be Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds! (Al-A`raf 7:54)
Say: “Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of [all] the worlds.” He set on the [earth] mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four days, in accordance with [the needs of] those who seek [sustenance]. Moreover, He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been [as] smoke: He said to it and to the earth: “Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly.” They said: “We do come [together], in willing obedience.” So He completed them as seven firmaments in two days and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and [provided it] with guard. Such is the decree of [Him] the Exalted in might, Full of knowledge. (Fussilat 41:9-12)
Interestin', the universe is 13.5 billions old (6 days passed), this places the age of Earth at one third the age of the universe (2 days)
13.5/3 = 4.5
6 days = 13.5 bil
2 days = 4.5 bil
How long has man been on this planet?
Not known, the oldest human skeleton found is give or take 30,000 years old. Not includin' the alleged lucy skeleton who appeared to be a extinct ape specie.
Do you beleive Dinasaurs existed?
Offcourse I do --
Do you see it possble that life was brought to this planet by comets\meteorite?
Nope, another debunked myth perpetuated by the evolutionists.
Someone said to the Prophet, "Pray to God against the idolaters and curse them." The Prophet replied, "I have been sent to show mercy and have not been sent to curse." (Muslim)
Either you deliberately fail to reflect on what I said or you do not want to consider what I stated by lookin' at the references (i.e. Qu'ran, Bible and science book). Unfortunaley, this is also the same method used in the previous thread.
See, I dislike your comments and am desperate to find some middle ground. You say to me:
For the sake of argumentation, let's assume that the "dark matter" is considerd as a fact and [exists]. The physicists argue that in the "dark matter", there is a another universe that has its own rules of physics that would appear bizare to us. And that there are other civilizations dwelling in that universe that are maybe similiar to mankind.
I am sorry, as far as the understanding of "dark matter" goes, I don't agree with your theory of what "dark matter" is. We have to agree on this before we can move forward. This is a bit of a double edged sword, because nobody can prove (yet) the existence of "dark matter". However, And as much as I don't want to do your scientific research for you, we have to agree on some points. I am grateful that you are prepared to for a short time at least accept that dark matter exists. But we need to agree if this is in small particle form (wimps) or large (macho). Or for the sake of argument, allow us to draw on both. You need to let me know if you for a short time are prepared to accept WIMPS, MACHOS or both.
Another issue that I want us to agree on, is the visible origins of the universe in that I want you to accept as a Scientific fact (beyond religous and Scientific differences) that we can see our past, albeit a universe created past for I dont mind which one you use at this current time and place. If you agree that we can indeed see back about 75% of the way back from where the mass is originating, and see the universe and it's matter at various stages of creation. And let's also agree that the "big Bang" can be heard but not seen, since this is the case.
I, in return I will go read this in depth pioneer website that you have linked.
Nope, another debunked myth perpetuated by the evolutionists.
My final comment: Your above reply to my question could life be brought to this planet on the back of a meteor\comet. May I ask why you changed my theory to a myth, and can I ask Scientifically why you dont think it is possible for life to travel around the universe, smashing into planets, amongst other things! What interest me about your answer is that I wonder if you will simply reject it on the basis of Creationist view faith or both because you can't rule it out scientifically.
Peace..........
[b]Before going any deeper into this subject I would like to make a couple of points that I beleive are issues. Firstly, I don't represent anyone or any particular belief. I have my own very personal beleif that is outside the boundaries of religion. I am not here to convert you or in anyway disprove creationism, because even I myself do not rule it out. I really dont want to be treated in pity, or perceived as a "salesmen" or a test of your faith. I am only here to debate current scietific issues of today. In short the "Facts".
Someone said to the Prophet, "Pray to God against the idolaters and curse them." The Prophet replied, "I have been sent to show mercy and have not been sent to curse." (Muslim)
it what you mean by aliens. if you mean those long faced peculiar creatures that you see in blockbuster movies. then no, however there are things that we have no knowledge which is called the knowledge of the unseen. one example that i can remember is the when the Prophet went up the heavens. he was carried by an flying horse with phenomenal speed. he could fly as far as the eye sees in seconds ( so i remember ). existance is not defined by us knowing it, if you we don't know it there doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. e.g. iron was only found the last hundreds of years does this mean it was never there till we found out ?
that what i think it is may Allah forgive me if i said something that is not correct.
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Now thats an interestin One ..
SUMTHING ABOUT PPL WHO BELIEVE IN NATURE (SHORT ARTICLE U WONT GET BORED)
just to verify abt the BIG BANG THING I SAID COZ BEFORE I WROTE IT I ASKED AN AALIM CLASS STUDENT WHO LEARNT IT FROM HIS USTADH THAT BIG BANG WAS HARAAM-- or i think he probably meant that to believe that it all happened by itself is haraam-- we all make mistakes
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