A Beautiful Analogy on God

[Grace Seeker]

I'm just glad that so many of the Muslims on this board liked the initial story about the barber. I too have seen it before and always enjoyed it. It is a point that Muslims and Christians have in common.

 

[KAding]

Re: Do Barbers exist?

<snip>
"exactly!" affirmed the customer. "that's the point ! Allah, too, does exist! That's what happens when people do not go to him and don't look to him for help. That's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world."

I'll be honest. I don't get it.

Is he saying that bad things (poverty, pain, suffering) only happen to people who do not 'go to Him', in other words do not believe in God :/.

But that clearly isn't true, right? There are plenty of pious people who encounter all kinds of hardship.

What am I missing exactly?

 

[- Qatada -]

Re: Do Barbers exist?

I'll be honest. I don't get it.

Is he saying that bad things (poverty, pain, suffering) only happen to people who do not 'go to Him', in other words do not believe in God :/.

But that clearly isn't true, right? There are plenty of pious people who encounter all kinds of hardship.

What am I missing exactly?

Yes.

The difference is that those who seek God's reward through calamity are rewarded for their patience and their reliance on God, whereas those who do evil and ungrateful to God are being punished.

 

[KAding]

Re: Do Barbers exist?

Yes.

The difference is that those who seek God's reward through calamity are rewarded for their patience and their reliance on God, whereas those who do evil and ungrateful to God are being punished.

Are you talking about the afterlife? Or in 'this' life?

If the afterlife, then I still don't understand how the analogy makes sense, since the barber is clearly talking about suffering in 'this' life, not 'the next'.

Or do you really believe religious people experience less hardship in life?

 

[- Qatada -]

My post is referring to this life.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: Do Barbers exist?

I'll be honest. I don't get it.

Is he saying that bad things (poverty, pain, suffering) only happen to people who do not 'go to Him', in other words do not believe in God :/.

But that clearly isn't true, right? There are plenty of pious people who encounter all kinds of hardship.

What am I missing exactly?

The barber had used proof of bad things happening as proof that there is no god.

The customer pointed out that he could likewise show that there are people with bad haircuts, by the same logic the barber was using this could be seen as proof that there were no haircuts.

It is in saying such a silly, fallacious thing that the fallacy of the barber's own comments come to light. Bad exists not because God does not, but because people don't turn to God. (Just as bad haircuts exist not because barbers do not exist, but because people fail to turn to barbers.)

 

[qweretyq]

Re: Do Barbers exist?

The barber had used proof of bad things happening as proof that there is no god.

The customer pointed out that he could likewise show that there are people with bad haircuts, by the same logic the barber was using this could be seen as proof that there were no haircuts.

It is in saying such a silly, fallacious thing that the fallacy of the barber's own comments come to light. Bad exists not because God does not, but because people don't turn to God. (Just as bad haircuts exist not because barbers do not exist, but because people fail to turn to barbers.)

What KAding was trying to say was that not all people who turn to God are problem-free (no misfortune), yet all people who turn to barbers have good haircuts.

There are a few problems with this analogy. We cannot compare anything to God really. He is just something you accept or reject given (or despite) the evidence around you.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: Do Barbers exist?

What KAding was trying to say was that not all people who turn to God are problem-free (no misfortune), yet all people who turn to barbers have good haircuts.

You have been to some of the barbers I have. But then there isn't much they can do with my head when the hair has mysteriously disappeared from the top of it. :-(

 

[qweretyq]

Re: Do Barbers exist?

You have been to some of the barbers I have. But then there isn't much they can do with my head when the hair has mysteriously disappeared from the top of it. :-(

Now you are going off-topic and arguing semantics.

The point is in the given example a barber's existence can be proven by one with bad hair going towards a barber and coming out with good hair (every time). However, one going towards God does not bring one fortune (every time).

Therefore, either God does not exist or God doesn't always bring fortune to those who come towards him (in this world). I believe the latter and that is why the analogy does not work.

 

[Beardo]

That Barber store is AWESOME! Masha'Allah ! Rep deserving.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: Do Barbers exist?

Now you are going off-topic and arguing semantics.

The point is in the given example a barber's existence can be proven by one with bad hair going towards a barber and coming out with good hair (every time). However, one going towards God does not bring one fortune (every time).

Therefore, either God does not exist or God doesn't always bring fortune to those who come towards him (in this world). I believe the latter and that is why the analogy does not work.

I was just being silly. But you want me to be serious again, I think the analogy works for what it was intended to communicate. All analogies break down, but one shouldn't ask an analogy to representative of every detail of that which it illustrates. For it to do that it would no longer be an analogy it would be the actually thing again, including that which is complex and confusing to some and thus defeat the whole point of using an analogy to simply the point.

I think the only point of the barber analogy is to communicate that just as there is a barber even if you see people with bad haircuts, so to the existence of people have unhappy lives does not disprove the existence of God. To make it be a character analysis in which God and the barber are compared is asking of it more than it seeks to illustrate. But, just for the moment I will say that I have known people who have gone to barbers and left looking worse than when they went in, so maybe there is more similarity than you think?

 

[qweretyq]

Re: Do Barbers exist?

I was just being silly. But you want me to be serious again, I think the analogy works for what it was intended to communicate. All analogies break down, but one shouldn't ask an analogy to representative of every detail of that which it illustrates. For it to do that it would no longer be an analogy it would be the actually thing again, including that which is complex and confusing to some and thus defeat the whole point of using an analogy to simply the point.

I think the only point of the barber analogy is to communicate that just as there is a barber even if you see people with bad haircuts, so to the existence of people have unhappy lives does not disprove the existence of God. To make it be a character analysis in which God and the barber are compared is asking of it more than it seeks to illustrate. But, just for the moment I will say that I have known people who have gone to barbers and left looking worse than when they went in, so maybe there is more similarity than you think?

I see. Ok then, it is just weird when anything is being compared to God (or his existence).

 

[Zafran]

Salaam

Great

peace

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Kading, you're right the story is bad.
I think I might have mentioned this in this thread before but the analogy is flawed since it simplifies the situation and overlooks the diversity of things that are generally considered evil. this is also why I dislike these man-made stories that try to explain religion. I find it much better to just explain the principles in plain logic like this:

The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the argument from evil.
There exist many variations and spins on this but the original riddle goes like this:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

The weakness obviously lies in slippery slope deduction on the second premise. It completely leaves out the possibility that there might be a deeper underlying motive for an able God not want to ban evil without him being considered malevolent.

First we nee d to understand there's different types of evil. Many evil things comes from mankind's free will. The problem is freedom of Choice. If you believe -like I do- that life is a test; then God would defeat his own purpose by preventing evil! Stopping evil would prevent free will.
Of course, not all evil of the world can be traced back to human choices. There is a second type, which I'd like to call relative evils. Because their "evilness" is relative to one's perspective. Death for example, gets a whole new perspective if seen as a transition rather then an end. These are evils that serve a purpose. It can be a practical purpose, like death in order to transit from one world to the next. Hardship can also have practical benefits, it can teach people. Ever noticed how generally speaking, people who had little or no hardships in their life have a higher tendency to be arrogant? Punishment could be another practical evil. As controversial as some of these might be, the point remains that we can imagine alternative motives, without resorting to judging our creator as malevolent for allowing these "evils".

And then finally a third type of evil, in general all sorts of hardships and suffering that do not serve a direct purpose in this life. However even these can gain a new perspective if seen in the context of life being a test. There's a huge difference between a poor man who doesn't steal and a rich man who doesn't steal. From that perspective one could consider being poor as a blessing rather then a curse, as it can increase one's reward in the hereafter.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I don't find the barber story even making an attempt to explain the existence of evil. It merely says that the existence of evil, even as a given, is simply not sufficient as a proof for the absence of God. That's all it tries to say, nothing more, and of course to try to make it say more than it is actually saying would produce a less than satisfactory result. So, don't go there with it; it doesn't intend for anyone to, for it doesn't actually address the problem of evil at all.