A problem with Budhhism

[Marwan]

The whole thing with Buddhism is that this life is a life of suffering and misery. This comes because of desire. By removing desire, you will remove suffering and misery. Your desire can be removed by following The
Eight Fold Path. I find 4 problems with this belief:

1) Why would God create you, then bring suffering and misery upon you, and then tell you how to remove this suffering and misery? Or let you figure it out by yourself? Its just illogical, and absurd.

2) If it was not God, as many Buddhist believe, because many buddhist are Atheists, then why do it? Why if I will not get anywhere after I die, should I spend my whole life trying to remove my suffering and misery? I at least would have lived my life. There is no reason for me to spend my life by removing my misery and suffering, and after all that, all I have left is me without any suffering and misery. Fine, its good to remove your suffering and misery. Everyone wants to be happy etc, but what happens after that? I have lived my whole life getting my suffering and misery to go away by following some rules, and I don't get nothing out of it. Yes, I don't have suffering and misery upon me anymore, but nothing big has really happened. I am still here in this evil world and will go nowhere (or become a animal as Buddhists or some Buddhists believe) after I die. So all this is just for this one and only life that I have. I would have done it, but just if I will get a reward for it, like eternal paradise. If not, I would rather live my only life instead of spending it on something meaningless. If no God and no after life, then spending you entire life on this Buddhist thing, is just ridiculous. You will maybe (not all buddhist doing this do in fact become without suffering or misery, and I doubt any do in fact) get your suffering and misery away, but you can do it in many ways. You don't have to be a Buddhist to remove your desire. You can be a Muslim too, because Muslims also believe in doing good deeds and not let your desire (Satan) trick you. Or you can just take a happy pill (joke). Not everybody will get their suffering and misery removed by following Buddhism. Many will find it not doing nothing with their suffering and misery, and on the other hand, many will. Buddhism isn't a cure for suffering and misery. It tells you how to remove it, but its "how" may not work for everybody. Its basically just a philosophy. Many people have different "how" to remove suffering, misery and getting happy etc, but none if these are facts. You have to see for yourself what is working for you. If Buddhism removes your desire, then that is what is working for you. If it is traveling then that is what is working for you. There is nothing which works for everybody. If 1 million people who have a lot of suffering and misery upon thems try out Buddhism as their cure, do you think everybody would be happy? Of course not. If it where, then you will not see so many Buddhists coming to Islam etc. I know many Buddhist who left their faith. If it really did remove their suffering and misery, then why did they leave it? Probably because Buddhism isn't the complet answer to suffering and misery, but just a "how" meaning, which can work for someone, but not all.

3) Many things can't be done away just by removing your desire. For example cancer and in fact every other sickness. So Buddhism can't remove every suffering and misery, because its "how" to remove it, can't remove all of it. If you can just remove some suffering and misery, but not all, then what's the point? Buddha told us that desire is what removes suffering and misery, but if he meant ALL suffering and misery then he must have been very unintelligent, because desire can't remove every suffering and misery. If it could, people wouldn't try to still find a cure for chancer. So Buddhism doesn't remove or give answers how to remove all of your suffering and misery, just some of them. And if not removing all of it, but just some of it, why live all your life following i
4) If you say that you in fact will get a reward for this after you die, that is by spending your life by getting your suffering and misery away, then another problem arise: Why would God create you, then bring suffering and misery upon you, then tell you how to remove it or let you figure it out, and then when you have done it and died, you will get a reward for it? Seems like God didn't have much to do. It's like he created us just for fun or something. It's like this: I make a Pizza, then put a bad thing inside of it, and before I give it to my friend, I tell him how to remove thid bad thing from the Pizza, and when you have successfully removed that bad thing, you can eat this good Pizza. Do you see the illogicality in this? Why would I put a bad thing inside that Pizza at the first place? And if you say that doing this will get you to become a animal, then God is just cruel! First he brings this suffering upon you and after you have removed it, he let you become a Animal?

I am not a expert on Buddhism, but my logic and understanding of this teaching says that it's absurd. I may be wrong. I would like a Buddhist here to answer me this. And I'm soory if this hurted any Buddhists, because my intention was not to hurt anyone, just to tell you my problem with this belief, which may be wrong, but which I would still believe is right until someone proves me wrong. This is basically a challenge to Buddhists, and I will accept that I was wrong, if you really can prove me wrong.

 

[ardianto]

Assalamualaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh to Muslims. Greeting and peace to non-Muslims.

I am not a Buddhist, I am a Muslim. But let me give a little explanation about suffering and misery in Buddhism, and how removing desire can remove suffering and misery, from what I know.

There is a misunderstanding about suffering and misery in Buddhism. Non-Buddhists always interpret this suffering and misery in a general sense. They assume, in concept of Buddhism, everyone will be unlucky, like born ugly in very poor family, will be failed in every attempt, or will get disaster. It raise a question among non-Buddhists, how can removing desire remove this bad luck?.

Actually Buddha did not say "suffering and misery" (in general sense), but "dukkha". And what is "dukkha"?. Simply, "dukkha" is dissatisfaction with what someone have. Everything in the world is not really meet with people expectation, and people always feel dissatisfied. In example, someone has a fairly prosperous life, but he is always dissatisfied with what he has. And a complain arising out of his heart "why is it that I just had? Why I do not have more?". This dissatisfaction will makes him unhappy, or in another word, makes him suffer.

Could removing desire remove this suffer?.

This is not so different than concept of thankful/grateful in other religions. If we feel grateful for what we have, then we will be happy. If we are always complaining and controlled by the desire, then we would not be happy.

This is what I know about "dukkha" in Buddhism. I hope if a Buddhist read this thread he/she will gives better explanation and also correcting me if I am wrong.

But bro, why Buddhism becomes a problem for you?. As a Muslim you are living in Islam, not living in Buddhism. And Buddhists people do not force us to follow their way.

Read again surah Al-Kafirun ayaah 6 "For you is your religion, and for me is my religion".

 

[Marwan]

Aleikum salam brother

It was not "dukkha" I talked about. I do not know if you are saying that there is really dukkha I'm talking about or what I said about Buddhism is completely wrong, or that this teaching isn't really a part of Buddhism. My problem is the teaching of Buddhism that says that this life is just suffering and misery, and that you can remove the suffering and misery by removing desire. Do not know if you tried to say that this lesson is not in Buddhism or if I exaggerated it, but this teaching, I heard from the master of comparative religion, Dr.Zakir Naik. In his website irf.net he describes this doctrine as follows:

"The Principal Teachings of Gautama Buddha can be summarised in what the Buddhist call the 'Four Noble Truths':

First - There is suffering and misery in life.

Second - The cause of this suffering and misery is desire.

Third - Suffering and misery can be removed by removing desire.

Fourth - Desire can be removed by Following the Eight Fold Path.

B. The Noble Eight Fold Path:

(i) Right Views

(ii) Right Thoughts

(iii) Right Speech

(iv) Right Actions

(v) Right Livelihood

(vi) Right Efforts

(vii) Right Mindfulness

(viii) Right Meditation"

This particular doctrine of Buddhism as exactly described by Dr. Zakir Naik, is what I talked about, and which I have problems with. I do not know what "dukkha" is, but it's not what I'm talking about. But I don't have any problem with this "dukkha" thing as you described it. You can find it in most religion, and must people (Jews, Christians and Muslims) will have no problem with it. It's a easy and pure teaching which I think is very true and which no Muslim can deny, because it is not against Islam in any way. But again, this is not the teaching I am talking about.
And I have no problem with Buddhism and respect their way of life, but it is allowed to criticize another religion and it's teachings. I just want a normal and polite discussion on this. Just wanted to say what my problem was with this doctrine, and why I think it's wrong. And I may be wrong, because I am just a human with limited logic and knowledge. Has nothing to do with not respecting Buddhism. Just criticism, that all in here make of other religions. Muslims and non-Muslims. I don't have any problem with any religion, including Buddhism, I just don't agree with them. With all respect brother, I think you make conclusions to fast. Try to understand me first.

 

[GodIsAll]

I have always looked at Buddhism as being more of a philosophy than a religion.

 

[ardianto]

I have always looked at Buddhism as being more of a philosophy than a religion.

Honestly, me too.

Is very difficult, and even impossible, to understand Buddhism if we look at it with Abrahamic faith point of view. But would be easier if we look at it with philosophical point of view.

 

[ardianto]

@brother Marwan

I am really sorry. Yes, I made conclusion too fast. It's because I often found Muslims who said "problem with ......" and they attack other religions. I hope you understand.

Okay, back to topic.

I know, it's not easy for you to understand Buddhism concept: Life is suffering and misery, and removing desire will remove suffering and misery. It's because you did not empty the cup before you fill it with tea. And you were focus to the finger that pointing to the moon, not the moon itself.

Confused?. Read my reply to brother GodIsAll. Is impossible to understand "Four Noble Truths" and "The Noble Eight Fold Path" if we use Islamic point of view.

 

[Marwan]

It's completely fine, brother. What you did is misunderstanding me, because what I meant with "problem with Buddhism" is that I had a problem with it, that I so it as a problem (i,c The suffering and misery teaching of Buddhism). It was nothing more than my opinion on this teaching. And again, this may be wrong, because I am not a expert on this. I was doing som comparative studies and came across Dr. Zakir Naik's website. When I was reading about Buddhism there, this suffering and misery teaching came up, as I showed you above. This teaching didn't make sense to me and I thougt maybe if I postet it at this forum, someone would explain it or understand it for me. I wanted only to give you my view about this doctrine. I want to know what Buddhists have to say of this, and God willing, we can have a good discussion on this. But as I see it, this doctrine of Buddhism as described by Dr. Zakir Naik, is absurd.


And I would say that I am not using the Islamic point of view. I don't even know what the Islamic view point of view, if it's one, is on this issue. I used my own view point, my own logic and undertanding of this teaching. I agree with you that it is impossible to undertand Buddhism from Islamic view points, like it is with all religions. But I used just my own view point on it. I would be very happy if someone could give me the Buddhist view/answer to this. But just because a Buddhist view or answer on this is being said, doesn't make it true. The Buddhist view or answer to this can be wrong and illogical. I may not agree on it, if it is illogical. Like the trinity. We Muslims don't think it is logical, and having a Christian giving a Christian answer to it, doesn't make it right. If the answer is illogical then you may still believe that it is wrong.

 

[ardianto]

A farmer found a golden sculpture of an arahant, one of 18 arahant in Buddhism. It's enough to makes him rich if he sell it. However, he doesn't sell this golden sculpture, but start crying. It makes people around him so confused. they ask him "What happen with you? don't you happy?, this golden arahant could makes you rich if you sell it". The farmer silent for a moment, then he replies "This golden arahant is just one of 18 golden arahant. I don't know how to find the other 17. It's makes me sad"


The farmer in this story is an example of person who suffer. He has turn into rich after he found that golden arahant, but his desire to find the other 17 golden arahant makes him sad and cry, makes him suffer. If the farmer in this story could remove his desire to find the other 17 golden arahant, he would be happy. So, suffering in the Four Noble Truth actually is spiritual suffering, not physical like poverty.

I guess, you have a conception that those suffering and misery are physical suffering and misery. This is what I mean with "you did not empty the cup before you fill it with tea".

Look at Buddhist monks. Physically they are suffer because they have no anything. But spiritually they are happy because they can remove their desire to have more than their basic need of life. They have been free from "I want to have ...." that could makes them suffer.

 

[Marwan]

If it is just spiritually as you say, then I have
misunderstood the whole thing. As you described it, I don't have any problem with it, but as Dr. Zakir Nakir described it, I have. But maybe Dr. Zakir Naik only meant spiritually. In the way he writes it, it seems very literal. He doesn't say that it is just spritually, so you can understand why I tought different about this teaching. But if this teaching in fact is in Buddhism, not only spiritually, then I would still think it is illogical. If it is not, but just spritually, as I think you try to say, then I have misunderstood this teaching, and I am soory for that.

P.S: My English may not be so very good, because it is my third language, after Norwegian and Arabic. And I am still trying to get better at English

 

[ardianto]

Actually more than just spiritual, but it can not be separated from sprituality.

Like I have said, I am not a Buddhist, I am a Muslim, and my my knowledge of Buddhism is like a drop of water in the ocean. But I live in Eastern and familiar with Eastern wisdoms that synchronous with "Four Noble Truths" and "The Noble Eight Fold Path".

Eastern wisdoms and spirituality are absurd in Western people point of view that require everything should be logic. That's why, not easy for you to understand. But I hope a Buddhist can explain your question about Buddhism with words that easy to understand.

I am sorry too.

Wasalamualaikum.

 

[GodIsAll]

The way I've interpreted some of the few readings I've done on Buddhism is as follows:

Suffering exists in the human experience. This suffering can be physical, emotional, etc. We suffer because we have desires.

Simple example: When we are very cold, we are miserable; however, Buddhism would argue that the cold doesn't cause our suffering, rather, it is the desire to be warm. If we can train our thoughts to be rid of any and all desires, suffering ceases to exist in the human experience.

There is much more, of course, but this was always how I have interpreted one of its many facets.

 

[Marwan]

On a spiritually level it may be true. You can stop suffering in many cases, spiritually, if you win over your desire. But I don't agree with it in a physical level. You cannot remove physical suffering just by desire, like for example cancer. After being bit by a snake or spider you will feel physical miserable and suffer. How can desire remove this? Try to think that the snake didn't in fact bite you? That you are just dreaming? It is also not the desire that caused this suffering, it was the snake. To say that it isn't the cold, snake, cancer etc, which makes you miserable and suffer, but your desire, is absurd. To say that all suffering is in fact a desire, and you can remove this suffering by just removing desire, is completely wrong. I can take many examples where physical suffering is not from desire and cannot be removed by desire.

To train our thoughts to be rid of all desire, would not get all suffering gone, because of the simple fact that not all suffering is from desire. That is, in a physical level. It may rid of some suffering, but to say ALL, is completely false. You can for example, if you really think that you are warm, be a little warmer when you in fact are cold. But this is just one case. Let me give a example where desire cannot remove physical suffering: A person which are blind is miserable. Desire cannot remove this blindness. If you start thinking very hard that you would be able to see again, would it make you see? Or are you blind because your desire to see? That's absurd. At a spritually level, you can remove this suffering due. You just stop thinking that you will see again. Stop your desire to be able to see again, and you will find peace. Accept that you are blind and live with it, simple as that.
This was not directed at you, GodIsAll, but Buddhism's teaching as you desribed it above. I know that you as a Muslim don't agree with Buddhism.

 

[GodIsAll]

Alas, Marwan, I am not Muslim. I don't know what you'd label me as...perhaps loving, peaceful, patient, and trying to do our one God's will with every breath?

I guess I didn't relay my understanding of Buddhism very well or my example was flawed. Let me try one of yours:
Of course you would remain to be cold, but if you could eliminate the desire or yen to be warm, suffering ceases to exist. In Tibet, Buddhist acolytes will soak themselves down with water and spend the night outdoors with little to no clothes on, meditating.

In regards to cancer....I don't think Buddhism would claim the ability to heal oneself. Instead, it would be written off as "karma". A Buddhist would rid himself of the desire to feel healthy or well.

Surely someone on here can do a better than I am doing. Then again, I doubt too many Buddhists lurk here.

Let me see what I can find out...

 

[ardianto]

I am back again.

Simple example: When we are very cold, we are miserable; however, Buddhism would argue that the cold doesn't cause our suffering, rather, it is the desire to be warm. If we can train our thoughts to be rid of any and all desires, suffering ceases to exist in the human experience.

With the right concentration and right breathing you can raise your "inner energy" and turn it into heat. So, you will be warm. Or you can focus that heat on your palms and transfer it to someone else. Shaolin monks can do it.

I am not kidding about inner energy. This is real, although not really same like in kungfu movies, and basically this is "body electricity". I have done few test about this, including test with avometer.

But actually meditation to raise inner energy is not originally from Buddhism, but founded and developed by Chinese, especially in Shaolin monastery.

Okay, back to Buddhism.

There's something unique, Buddhism was born in India. However, it did not survive in India itself, but popular in Far East. Might be because it did not synchronous with India's wisdom but synchronous with Eastern' wisdom.

Frankly, I often forgot a fact that Buddhism originally from India. Image of Buddhism in my eyes is Chinese belief. Might be because I am familiar with Chinese (Far East) stories like "the legend of Sun Wu Kong (Journey to the west)", that full of Buddhism.

In Tibet, Buddhist acolytes will soak themselves down with water and spend the night outdoors with little to no clothes on, meditating.

Have suffered to cleanse the soul maybe look weird in the Western people eyes. But for those who familiar with Eastern wisdom, this is logic.

 

[CosmicPathos]

many people of South Asia have always been mysticism oriented. There are more than 1 million hermits in India. Buddhism also arose in India. Gautam Buddha was an Indian Prince and was born into a Hindu Kshatrya case (warrior caste).

So if you study Buddhism in that context, it makes perfect sense that Buddhism, as well as Hinduism, are all about mysticism, and some times illogical. Jainism is another Indian religion.

Islamic Sufism in South Asia has been hugely influenced by the mysticism of Hinduism and Buddhism.

I dao agree with Four Noble Truths to some extent. But I am not sure Buddha really said them or not. As the first account of Buddha was written 400 or so years after his death.

Desire is suffering, even the desire to live a normal life is suffering. Ask a person born with genetic metabolic disorders.

 

[Marwan]

I'm soory for have believed that you where a Muslim, maybe I should look at the profile before saying that he is this or that. But anyway, you shouldn't have any problem with being called Muslim, because a Muslim is basically someone who submit his will to God. So I will label you as a Muslim, because you submit yourself to God. So in that sense... you are a Muslim.


To your example of that cold thing: There are some things which you can remove by desire. What I am saying is that you cannot remove ALL of it. You may be more warmer if you think that you are warm, when you in fact are cold. I so some people do it at National Geographic once, and I know this can be true. But just because desire can remove coldness by desire, doesn't mean that desire now can remove all suffering. And I can give many examples of that, but I have done it here above before, so I will not spend my time giving more examples. Every logical person knows that desire cannot remove all suffering. That is, physical suffering. And to say that you are cold because of your desire to be warm, as someone here said above, is impossibe. You first have to be cold before you can desire to be warm. The first come before the second. So your desire to be warm cannot be the reason behind your coldness, because your coldness come before your desire to be warm. Just like you have to be hungry before even thinking of eating, so your desire cannot be the reason behind your hunger in the first place.

 

[ardianto]

"The universe contains tamarind seed inside. A tamarind seed contains the universe inside".

@brother Marwan
I am sure you know why the universe contains tamarind seed inside. But do you understand why a tamarind seed contains the universe inside?.

I give you a clue.

One student of Zen who known as "the 1000 books" because he had read many books, asked his teacher
"I understand if the universe contains a tamarind seed inside. But how can a tamarind seed that very small contains the universe inside?"
His teacher answer with a question
"people call you The 1000 books. Now tell me, how can your brain that very small accommodate these 1000 books inside?"

Still do not understand?. It's means you are not familiar with Eastern Wisdom that familiar with listen to the unspoken words, read the unwritten text. If you are familiar with Eastern Wisdom, you would be easier to understand what Buddhism means with suffering, misery, and removing desire.

But bro, it's better if you focus to learn Islam. Questions about other religion probably will 'shake' your iman.

 

[GodIsAll]

But anyway, you shouldn't have any problem with being called Muslim, because a Muslim is basically someone who submit his will to God. So I will label you as a Muslim, because you submit yourself to God. So in that sense... you are a Muslim.

No problem or offense taken in any way!
I am glad and proud to be considered a brother in our worship of our kind and awe-inspiring Creator!

 

[Marwan]

That's very good to hear. You are the first person I have talked to who have said that being called a Muslim is something which you will be glad for. All others say things like "No, of course I am not a terrorist!" etc And I am soory for not being able to respond to you at privat message. Because I have not posted 50 posts yet, I cannot send private messages.

ardianto: Maybe it's just because I don't understand Buddhism that I have a problem with this, or maybe the problem is Buddhism itself. Anyway, as I understand it, this teaching doesn't make sense to me, but maybe I am just misunderstanding the whole thing. And brother, you don't need to think of my iman being shaked, I will be fine and so will my iman It's important to ask Questions about your own religion and understand it, but it's also important to learn about other religions etc. Doing so have just maked my iman bigger, and having seen must other religions and compared them to Islam, I have just been more convinced that Islam is the truth.

 

[lojong1]

Well, Marwan has not posted in quite a while, but this will be fun for me and insha'allah I can use his questions to learn about this community. The OP is far too big for a single thread, and my screen keeps resetting, deleting reply text which won't restore fully, so small chunks at a time...

The whole thing with Buddhism is that this life is a life of suffering and misery.

The 4NT (4 noble truths) as written in the OP are not so problematic, unless they lead to confusion, in which case they should definitely be clarified and cleaned up. Big up the poster who mentioned dukkha. Marwin was happy with this and recognized it as fully Islamic, so I won't say any more about it unless someone asks. Dr. Naik translated this adequately, and it is expected that he would not dedicate too much time explaining buddhist thought on his website.
Before going over the rest of the 4NT... Marwan's first problem...

I find 4 problems with this belief: 1) Why would God create you, then bring suffering and misery upon you, and then tell you how to remove this suffering and misery? Or let you figure it out by yourself? Its just illogical, and absurd.

I thought that this was answered in the Quran, since certainly in my brief exploration of the last few weeks, more than one Muslim has told me that we are here to be tested, and what Allah wills, Allah gets, and we will likely understand very little of Allah's plan for us.
Are others here puzzled by this?