Allow me a simple question.

Please show them.

Please provide some links for any myths

Embryology, and Geocentric Astronomy, were taught, more
than 400 years, before the first Koranic revelation, and
Heliocentric Astronomy, 60 years before it. (links to articles)

As an interesting footnote, Galen was born, and died in Turkey,
as did Ptolemy, in Egypt. And the teachings of Aryabhata were
translated, and brought to Arabia, during the Sassanid Empire.

Without arguing the nuances or semantics of the matter,
the fact remains, that such knowledge had already been
discovered, long before it was ever revealed in the Koran
.

This issue, is not one of scientific accuracy.

It is one of divine inference, purportedly anteceding all
discovery, and ostentatiously assuming progenitorial status.
 
We came of our own choice, simply because we came to the realization that the Qur'an is true.

I do not have a glimmer of a doubt that the Qur'an is true. Although I did fight it and believed it to be mere literature for the first 65 years of my life.

If you feel it's appropriate, would you please briefly elucidate how you came to that realisation?

Also, could you recommend any writings, that would give an unbiased account of the prophet's life.
Preferably, not contemporary, but rather, written close to his times, ergo 6th, 7th , 8th centuries.

Thank you.
 
If you feel it's appropriate, would you please briefly elucidate how you came to that realization?

I would say it is probably very individual and different tor each person. so speaking just for my self. I am a fairly recent revert having reverted just a little over 2 years ago, March of 2005, Just a few months before my 65th birthday.

I was familiar with Islam in an academic sense. But, I was pretty much of an agnostic although I preferred to call myself a Buddhist. i was also familiar with Arabic as a language. I had spent a number of years in the North African and Mid-Eastern countries in my younger days. I had a Qur'an written only in Arabic. At the time I did not know that a non-Muslim should not have a pure Qur'an unless they had been taught how to respect it. For nearly 40 years I had that Qur'an as an academic guide. I saw it simply as a piece of literature and a very interesting study in the Arabic Language. I had never had any desire to accept Islam and nobody had every asked me to. I had never spoken to an Imam or ever even discussed Islam with a Muslim to any extent.

At the time of my reverting I was living in a small town in Anderson, county Texas. I was not aware of any Mosques in Anderson County and did not even know if there were any Muslims in Texas.

I was a semi-church goer, even being agnostic. In small town Texas, a person is pretty much expected to, at least a few times each year, put on your Sunday go to meeting duds, and mingle with the folks at church. That was my limit on organized religion.

Anyhow I was cleaning up the house, and came across my Qur'an. I had been alone for 2 years and living the life of an old bachelor out in the middle of no place. My car had been dead for a few weeks and I was pretty much on foot.
Was semi-courting the widow lady down the street, we would have coffee together at her house a few times a week. Did occasionaly have some fleeting thoughts that perhaps I would remarry. she was/is a good woman with some nice values and at the time, we had some serious discussions about marriage.

Anyhow that particular day after coming across my Qur'an I thought I'd try to refresh my Arabic and began reading it. For some reaso as i read it it, I was overcome with a feeling of deep comfort. I had always known I could not read the Qur'an properly as I did not understand the proununciation marks so my pronounciation was very colloquial and not Qur'anic. But, even reading it simply as literature and viewing it as a language tool, This particular day, it was like a bell rang. The words made sense and were not just poetry. the more I read the more relaxed I became. The more relaxed, the more comforting it was. I read through the Qur'an non-stop until I had read the entire book, and then started over again. I don't really know how many hours I read and could not stop. I know it was at least 2 full days.

After reading it, I knew I was Muslim, it was as if I had found my way home. I said the Shahadah. (Yes, I knew what the Shahdah was, from having studing religions, and yes I knew how to say it. That came from old military days. When I was in North Africa, it was general Barracks hogwash talk, that if we ever got into a war with any Arab nations and got captured by Arabs we would not be killed if we said the Shahadah so many of us had learned it by heart)

After saying the Shahdah, I just sat and reflected for a while. I had said the Shahdah with full intent and sincerity. I knew I was then Muslim for the rest of my life. I slept for awhile. work up and decided to walk down to the convenience store about a mile down the road. When I was in the store a stranger came in. For some reason I got talking with him. I learned he spoke Arabic. We carried on a brief conversation in Arabic. I was surprised he could understand my broken, mispronounced speaking. I found out He was Muslim, I told him I had just said the Shahdah. He immediatly invited me to go with him to the Mosque on Friday. I did not know there was one in Texas. Turns out there was one in Tyler about 60 miles away. We went to the Mosque for Jummah that Friday. We got there early spoke with the Imam. I repeated the Shahadah publicaly and My life has changed. Besides being Muslim I met a life long friend, who was the first Brother I met in Islam.

So how I came to the realization that Islam is the truth, i can not fully say. It was not a planned thing. Everything just fell into place and I am very gratefull for what I gained. i also gained much, much more. But that is a seperate story.

Also, could you recommend any writings, that would give an unbiased account of the prophet's life.
Preferably, not contemporary, but rather, written close to his times, ergo 6th, 7th , 8th centuries.

The first early books I read about Muhammad(PBUH) were from the 10th Century, written from the Christian perspective. Not very flattering quite biased against him.

I have recently begun trying to search for early writings about Muhammad(PBUH). So far no luck. The only books I know of about him are the Hadith, which do contain a lot of information about the last 20 years of His life written by people who were close to him. I believe you would consider the Hadith to be biased and not valid from a historical view.

Thank you.

Your Welcome
 
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Dear sabachthani,
I didn't quite understand :)
Without arguing the nuances or semantics of the matter,
the fact remains, that such knowledge had already been
discovered, long before it was ever revealed in the Koran.
I accessed the links, they are general information about books and science .. well, no one ever denies the presence of science (By Greeks for example), but was their science correct or complete? :)
They thought the earth is flat no spherical .. they never recorded the sounds of the pulsars! .. God says in the Holy Quran "I swear] by Heaven and the Tariq (The Knocker) ! And what will convey to you what the Tariq is? The Star Piercing [the darkness]! (Qur'an, 86:1-3)"
Let me provide some links about the pulsar; here's a link with sound and here's the official page on NASA. Also, a list of pulsars sounds
(sorry for taking much time to reply, it took me a day to search for the official pages :) )

I remember also in the Quran (70:40) where Easts and Wests are mentioned frankly in Arabic, and even some translations put it like this "the Lord of all points in the East and the West" .. this translation of points was made because people didn't know there are places with more than 1 east and 1 west, so they put what they could explain in English .. that's the Alpha Centauri
:)
 
:sl:
Simply because Arabic is the language of the Quran and prophet Muhammed was Arabian who speaks Arabic :)
I agree, would it have made sense for the Quran to have been revealed in a language that Prophet Muhammad (saaws) could not understand?
 
I agree, would it have made sense for the Quran to have been revealed in a language that Prophet Muhammad (saaws) could not understand?
Even if Muhammed PBUH understood that other language, the people around him wouldn't understand :)

Brother Woodrow, I am happy for you :)
 
I didn't quite understand
If no one denies the presence of science, and the Koran did not reveal any unknown facts,
where does it stand as a miracle? The accuracy of the pre-existing science, is irrelevant.
Advocates of the Koranic miracles, including Al-Shafy, have long insisted on the precedence
of its revelations, predating modern science by leaps and bounds. This is just not true.

Even chapter 86, verses 1 to 3, describe nothing more than a shooting star, clearly visible
with the naked eye. To suddenly translate tariq as knocker, when prior translations have
cited it to mean visitor, comer, or night star, is another example of how the Koran,
standing behind the wall of Arabic ambiguity, can evolve itself to mean anything.

I'm not trying to explain these so called miracles away. They're simply explainable.
 
We do live in a physical world and all things of this world do obey the natural order of the sciences. there is no denying that.

However, the universe is not limited to that which can be measured by the current tools of science.

I became a psychologist, while psychology was still in it's infancy. It had only been about 50 years before I was born that psychology was separated from philosophy and became a recognized science. this came about because Freud had discovered that analytical non-material testing, is a duplicable, definable form of testing. Perhaps one day science will realize that Faith can be measured and that it it can be used a a test to verify the influence of God(swt)

Theism does not deny science, it explains the why of science. this is where the Qur'an fits in. It just strikes me as odd that a scientist uses things such as clocks and thermometers and accepts as fact that they are constant for all time. The permenance of matter can not even be proven or accurately measured. We can not determine if the universe is a continuous continuum or if it is a discontinuous quanta continuum. It can not even be shown that if 2 accurate clock are set at the same time, that the time on both is still the same if the clocks are move 1 cm apart. Scientist have faith they do. But, it can not be proven nor accurately measured. Workably measured yes, but proven, no.

This is where the Qur'an becomes the feasible tool of measurement. But, like all tools you need to learn how to use it and how to read the results.
 
If no one denies the presence of science, and the Koran did not reveal any unknown facts, where does it stand as a miracle?
The presence of science doesn't mean Quran doesn't reveal unknown facts :)

Even chapter 86, verses 1 to 3, describe nothing more than a shooting star, clearly visible
with the naked eye. To suddenly translate tariq as knocker, when prior translations have
cited it to mean visitor, comer, or night star, is another example of how the Koran,
standing behind the wall of Arabic ambiguity, can evolve itself to mean anything.
It's not the matter of language here! :)
How do we expect people to explain the idea of the knocker when no one ever imagined there will be a pulsar that makes sound? .. when I read that verse before knowing this scientific evidence, I was wondering "who is knocking in the sky??" :D
 
Divine revelation should be easily distinguishable from progressive, perchance, discoveries.
Case in point, the tariq argument. Had it not been for Al-Shafy's purposeful search, for
evidence of modern scientific correlations with the Koran, we wouldn't have thought about it.

And in cases where such revelations were actually spelt out, i.e. embryology, we find that
it was in fact, not a revelation at all, as such knowledge had already been discovered.

Theism may not deny science, but it also does not explain the "why". It only narrates.

Nostradamus, in all his quatrains, had more accurate prophecies, than the Koran thus far.
Even so, experts dismiss them, as results of deliberate misinterpretations or mistranslations,
to purposefully correlate with world events, and claim the prophecies as fulfilled.

Sounds familiar?

Being in the field of psychology, I'm sure you know, that reading inspirational literature, can
induce an overwhelming sense of awe, especially if it is in a foreign language. Add to it,
a preconception of possible divinity, and one might just jump to the wrong realisations.

Bottom line, besides the miracle factor, what supports the Koran in its claims of divinity?
As this is the very foundation of Islam, I think that it is quite an important question.

Without vague justifications such as "I believe...", "I know in my heart...", etc, and
without re-trying the miracle factor, and most of all, without bombarding this board with
a barrage of supporting articles, or studies, by experts who are infidels to begin with,
CAN ANYONE SATISFACTORILY SAY, WHY THEY THINK THE KORAN IS THE WORD OF GOD?
 
Divine revelation should be easily distinguishable from progressive, perchance, discoveries.
Case in point, the tariq argument. Had it not been for Al-Shafy's purposeful search, for
evidence of modern scientific correlations with the Koran, we wouldn't have thought about it.

That works the same in both directions. No matter how something is revealed, the revelation will be explained by some, as not being a true revelation.



And in cases where such revelations were actually spelt out, i.e. embryology, we find that
it was in fact, not a revelation at all, as such knowledge had already been discovered.
That is a very subjective view. I can agree there was some knowledge of embryology. But, i doubt if that which was not seen until the advent of the microscope would have been known.

Theism may not deny science, but it also does not explain the "why". It only narrates.

true, however the source of the narration is the important factor.

Nostradamus, in all his quatrains, had more accurate prophecies, than the Koran thus far.
Even so, experts dismiss them, as results of deliberate misinterpretations or mistranslations,
to purposefully correlate with world events, and claim the prophecies as fulfilled.

true

Sounds familiar?

Yep, I see people saying the same about the Qur'an almost daily. But, what is true for one does not equate as being true for the other.

Being in the field of psychology, I'm sure you know, that reading inspirational literature, can
induce an overwhelming sense of awe, especially if it is in a foreign language. Add to it,
a preconception of possible divinity, and one might just jump to the wrong realisations.

That is true. It is a very big danger and can easily mislead people. Islam is quite adamant in demanding that we accept not only from faith but also through knowledge. we are required to Read, read and read. Our faith is good, but it is best to be a faith backed with knowledge.


Bottom line, besides the miracle factor, what supports the Koran in its claims of divinity?
As this is the very foundation of Islam, I think that it is quite an important question.

The only acceptable answer would be one that would give you reason to revert immediatly. I doubt if i have the knowledge to provide that. I can only give my own reasons.

1. Matter had an origin. the evidence for this is the age of the known universe can be traced back to a finite beginning. Our calculations may still be off but the evidence supports a beginning.

2. Matter either occurred spontaneously or it was created uniquely. If it occurred spontaneously the same conditions should have happened before and will should happen again. so far i have not found any evidence of matter existing prior to this universe nor any sign that any new matter is in the process of former. This is evidence that matter did not occur spontaneously.

3. If God(swt) does exist, there should be evidence of his existence some evidence is the existence of matter. There is also the many reports of Prophets(PBUT) that did have some form of communication with him. some may be false, but that does not rule out that some are true. the existence of Prophets(PBUT) is evidence of God(swt)

4. God(swt) would either have an interest in us or we are without purpose. If he gave us purpose he would have needed to give us a means of understanding that purpose. the Qur'an shows us how to understand that purpose.



Without vague justifications such as "I believe...", "I know in my heart...", etc, and
without re-trying the miracle factor, and most of all, without bombarding this board with
a barrage of supporting articles, or studies, by experts who are infidels to begin with,
CAN ANYONE SATISFACTORILY SAY, WHY THEY THINK THE KORAN IS THE WORD OF GOD?

to our own satisfaction yes. To the satisfaction of a non-believer? No, I can't However, I can tell why I believe and a person can evaluate my words and the words of others as they feel best. It is eventually up to each of us as individuals.
 
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Bottom line, besides the miracle factor, what supports the Koran in its claims of divinity?
As this is the very foundation of Islam, I think that it is quite an important question.

Without vague justifications such as "I believe...", "I know in my heart...", etc, and
without re-trying the miracle factor, and most of all, without bombarding this board with
a barrage of supporting articles, or studies, by experts who are infidels to begin with,
CAN ANYONE SATISFACTORILY SAY, WHY THEY THINK THE KORAN IS THE WORD OF GOD?
to our own satisfaction yes. To the satisfaction of a non-believer? No, I can't However, I can tell why I believe and a person can evaluate my words and the words of others as they feel best. It is eventually up to each of us as individuals.
I agree with what Brother Woodrow wrote.

I believe in a Creator, that I know as Allah (swt), of the universe and of all life forms. I believe in a resurrection for all humans from the grave, a Judgement Day and I believe in Heaven, the Heights, and Hell. I believe that Allah is Just and that He would not send people to eternal torment without providing guidance as to how to avoid it. I believe that prophets have been sent from Allah to guide mankind. I believe that Muhammad (saaws) was a Prophet and Messenger of Allah and that Allah (swt) revealed the Quran through him as a guidance for all of mankind.

Howver, I can never convince you of this because it is a belief that comes from within and cannot be imposed from without.
 
CAN ANYONE SATISFACTORILY SAY, WHY THEY THINK THE KORAN IS THE WORD OF GOD?
I can, but let me ask you first .. do you believe in God? :)
If you are atheist, there is a book called "A conversation with my atheist friend" by Dr. Mostafa Mahmoud.

Here's the table of content of it:
tocvp4.jpg

Are you interested in any chapter of it? because I'm working in translating it to English to be launched in the form of e-book.
 

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