Are we trying too hard?

[wayfarer91]

Assalam o Alaikum

Recently, there has been vast scale discussion on qadr on this platform. I would like to present my two cents on the topic as well. We need to have faith in Allah, and I feel like often when we are tying to understand the logic of qadar and its relation with dua is nothing but waswas. There are somethings in Islam that we believe without doubting for a single second. For instance, the story of Sulaiman and how he got hold of the throne of the Queen Saba in the blink of the eye. Human logic thinks it to be impossible. Nevertheless, we believe it happened because it is mentioned in the Quran.
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If we study the tafseer by Maulana Modoodi, he mentions clearly that not all the Wahis by Jibraeel were Quranic verses. It implies that definitely Allah granted Prophet Muhammad saww with exceptional knowledge, which was not meant for us to understand, like the Haroof - Muqataat. We do not know the meaning of these letters, except for Allah. Thus, the Hadith in Tirmidhi that states "nothing fights qadr like dua"is nothing but filled with absolute truth, as well as ghaib knowledge that our human minds can never comprehend.

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What is required of us is belief in Qadr, and the power of dua. Conviction is elemental, and we need to make dua with the belief Allah will answer. I know someone who came down from a 1000 to a zero, I have never seen them complain. Even after all the troubles they said that Allah has never rejected any of their duas. So faith is what is needed of us. Getting into these irrelevant questions might not be good for us. If we question this today, tomorrow we might question something else, under the guise that ït will only increase our faith and bring us closer to Allah.


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I have seen many knowledgeable people who went astray because they started from innocent questions and wanted to get logical answers. Their knowledge in Islam is unmatched, with quranic verses and hadith numbers stored in their brains like computer chips. Still, their constant questioning about certain things, did lead them away from Allah.

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And lastly my friends, we are here on the platform to help each other, through our experiences etc. Your words can go a long way. We have all heard of stories of online bullying leading to suicides. Many turn to the internet when their real time resources do not bear any fruit. Our single word can go a long way, that is why the hadith stated that "What will cause people to be thrown onto their faces in Hellfire except the harvest of their tongues?" [At-Tirmithi].

so always be kind to each other, Even if you don't agree with them. Know that, Islam preaches tolerance. Your one word can break someone or make them.


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Appreciated

 

[Ümit]

Aleykum selam.

With all respect wayfarer, you keep claiming that this subject could not be understand with human minds, it just needs belief...but till a certain level it is perfectly logical and totally makes sense. both Abdullah as Risinglight have shown that they also have understood how it work and they offered explanations.

I agree with you that certain things are not worth examining because it is irrelevant at this moment but the example you gave about the jews asking questions which cow to slaughter describes a whole different situation. they were ordered to slaughter a cow...so any cow would be sufficient, but they had to ask about its age, color, size, etc, etc.
If they had recieved answers to their questions, That would make their task much more difficult than originally ordered.
I do not know that story very well but if they were to slaughter a cow every year, than that would not only make their task nearly impossible but also for future generations.
That is why those questions were inappropriate.

In this case however, I asked a question to understand my religion better. the answer I recieve will make my life easier. There is a question mark less in my head which can be quite a burden.

Allah gave us reason and logic to learn and develop ourselves. that is our duty. you just need to distinguish what questions are worth investigating and what isn't. About the throne of Saba...you can investigate it...but you know beforehand it is useless because jinns have powers that are out of this world. it is a complete different dimension and the laws of nature as we know it does not apply to them. so you just have to accept that as a fact and let it go.

But please let everyone decide for themselves what to investigate and what not...your limit of what is still understandable and what not is not the same as that of somebody else.
The answer "because Allah wants it that way" can be given to every question:
Why do winds exist?
because Allah wants it that way
Or
because high pressure areas and low pressure areas cause a current of air which we call winds

Why do high and low pressure areas exist?
because Allah wants it that way
Or
because the air gets warmed up by the sun at some locations and it gets cooled down at other locations, warm air rises, cold air descends, so there is a continuously dynamic in the atmosphere causing high and low pressure areas which cause winds.

etc. etc.

You can take this as far as you want to go...or when you reach your limit of your logic you accept the answer "because Allah wants it that way" and you move on.

Please do not see this as a critique towards you but take it as a piece of advise.

And I am still interested about the book you have read about a woman who got her qadr changed with dua and allah answered to Musa as "she made so much dua, that it exceeded my will, so I changed what i had decreed.''

There is one more story about Musa as which is much more known to people where he mediates about the amount of daily prayers that need to be offered. Thanks to Musa as the amount of daily prayers is reduced from 50 to only 5.

 

[wayfarer91]

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That's what happened, the story of Qaum Thamud is mentioned in the Quran. In the end they made it difficult for themselves. Erstwhile they could have slaughtered any cow, instead every time they kept asking for details resulting in more boundaries,

And yes, but science doesn't believe in the jinns, have you seen them for urself? This is what I mean, our logic comes from the Quran. If we were to summon jinns that would go against our limits, which we are not allowed to cross. Have you not read the story of the people who excelled their limits and God destroyed them only because they were crossing boundaries, to an extent that a normal farmer could tell about the whereabouts of Jibraeel.

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You are totally getting my point wrong.


There are certain limits we are not meant to cross. The winds blowing are scientific facts. But tell me, we know jinns exist, why do we not summon them when ever we want? why is black magic haram? Because that is crossing limits given to us by Allah. Why don't we know the meaning of the abbreviated haroof? Why don't we know when the day of Judgement will arrive?

Logically a woman cannot give birth without having intercourse with a man, but Mariyam A.S did. Should we say because it doesnt make sense as per science and human logic, we should believe the story of mariuyam to be false as well (God forbid).

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We are told at the time of taahjud Allah descends to the lowest level of heaven. But isn't it always time for tahajjud some where in the world. For instance, Pakistan is half hour behind Nepal, so when its tahajud time in Nepal, it isn't in Pakistan. (emphasis on the last third of the night). KSA is two hours behind Pakistan. So when it is fajr time in Pak, it is time for tahajud in KSA. Does that mean Allah is always on the lowest level of heaven?


I hope you get my point.

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And yes, I am looking for the reference, will share asa i find it.

 

[Ümit]

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That's what happened, the story of Qaum Thamud is mentioned in the Quran. In the end they made it difficult for themselves. Erstwhile they could have slaughtered any cow, instead every time they kept asking for details resulting in more boundaries,

And yes, but science doesn't believe in the jinns, have you seen them for urself?

this makes no sense.
of course science doesn't believe in jinns. science does not follow any religion. it is nothing more than a tool we use to understand the world we live in. A hammer is also a tool...you can use it to hang a picture of Jesus on your wall or a framing with the 99 names of Allah. science follows the laws of nature to explain everything. it needs to be observable. the laws of nature are created by Allah...the Quraan is literally Allahs word...so therefore true science must be parallel to Quraan.
however, the laws of nature do not apply to jinns...and therefore the tool science is useless to investigate jinns...just like the hammer is useless when you need to tighten a screw.

This is what I mean, our logic comes from the Quran.

no. the Quraan does not have a different kind of logic. the Quraan is simply logical...something is logical or not...and not different kind of logic. again...true science and Quraan have the same source...which is Allah...and therefore completely compatible.

If we were to summon jinns that would go against our limits, which we are not allowed to cross. Have you not read the story of the people who excelled their limits and God destroyed them only because they were crossing boundaries, to an extent that a normal farmer could tell about the whereabouts of Jibraeel.

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You are totally getting my point wrong.


There are certain limits we are not meant to cross. The winds blowing are scientific facts. But tell me, we know jinns exist, why do we not summon them when ever we want? why is black magic haram? Because that is crossing limits given to us by Allah. Why don't we know the meaning of the abbreviated haroof? Why don't we know when the day of Judgement will arrive?

completely different topic. jinns are beyond science because they do not follow the same laws of nature as we know it. besides, it is haraam for jinns to seek contact with us...therefore, the jinns who choose to have contact with us are usually the wrong kind of jinns.
so that could be quite dangerous. about predicting future...we cannot do that because we simply do not have that information...and there is no way that we could obtain such information about any future. the ones who claim that they can predict the future are simply lying. they just put on a show...mumble some general words that can mean anything or make just wild guesses about the future.

Logically a woman cannot give birth without having intercourse with a man, but Mariyam A.S did. Should we say because it doesnt make sense as per science and human logic, we should believe the story of mariuyam to be false as well (God forbid).

no. you should make a difference between that what is logical...and miracles...this is clearly a miracle...it is beyond logical...but it is mentioned in the Quraan as a miracle and therefore should be accepted as true.

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We are told at the time of taahjud Allah descends to the lowest level of heaven. But isn't it always time for tahajjud some where in the world. For instance, Pakistan is half hour behind Nepal, so when its tahajud time in Nepal, it isn't in Pakistan. (emphasis on the last third of the night). KSA is two hours behind Pakistan. So when it is fajr time in Pak, it is time for tahajud in KSA. Does that mean Allah is always on the lowest level of heaven?


I hope you get my point.

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And yes, I am looking for the reference, will share asa i find it.

no. again you are talking about something which is not observable by humans. Allah is beyond his creation. you cannot apply science to pinpoint Allahs location. we are to limited to understand that.

you are repeating your arguments, so I am going to do that too.
one verse speak about trees and mountains prostrating in front of Allah. we all know that trees and mountains do not have hands and foreheads...how are they going to prostrate? they do not even live.
do you think one stupid person made an attempt to scientifically explain how they prostrate? do they do that when we do not look?

of course not...everyone knows it is meant in a different way than we can understand. not prostration like we humans do...not observable...not explainable using science....but mentioned in the Quraan and therefore true.

 

[amnasheikh99]

U just proved her point by sayin one cannot use logic to pinpoint Allah's location. Because Allah is omnipotent.

 

[Ümit]

U just proved her point by sayin one cannot use logic to pinpoint Allah's location. Because Allah is omnipotent.

no I didn't. her point isn't even clear...she is all over the place. It looks like she does not know when logic can be applied and when not. I agree there are some grey areas but the examples she is giving are crystal clear.

 

[keiv]

Yea there are definitely people who try too hard. It's in some people's nature to find the details and question every little thing. The problem with that, as you mentioned, is there are some things that are beyond our comprehension and for those people who have to have the answers to it all, not being able to understand something can be a hard pill to swallow. Some people are able to accept the reality of the unknown. Others believe if there is no sufficient answer to their questions, then they start heading down the path of doubt.

The whole issue with the qadr topic, as I mentioned in the other thread, is basically to make dua and whatever happens, happens. Ultimately, our reliance is on Allah and whatever happens, happens for a reason. If people feel inclined to leave the religion because of their lack of understanding about the subject or because they can't accept the answers they're given, I don't see how that will help them.

 

[wayfarer91]

exactly brother.. This is the gist of my verbose essay :

 

[wayfarer91]

IT does make sense, I don't know how to enter those quotes like you do, mind telling me, so i can clarify my points as well

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You asked about air, and explained it through the scientific logic. Didn't you? Either you fully use science to explain your arguments, or you use religion. Our knowledge comes from the Quran and Sunnah, and when it has been said in the sunnah that Dua does change Qadr, then why are you getting into the nitty gritty of qadr, how it works etc. There is a possibility that your bright mind might not be made to understand it.

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Ilm e Ghaib. Science does not believe in Ilm e Ghaib. Us Muslims do. We haven't seen Allah yet we believe in Him. We haven't seen Jinns but we know they exists, so on and so forth. In the same way we have to believe that somethings related to Qadr are beyond our understanding.

. Because science can't explain the instance of miraaj, should we reject it? Or because it will help you get closer to religion we should start questioning how Allah made the Prophet saww ascend to the heavens, visit Him, the prophets and also lead them in prayers in masjid aL Aqsa.? Logic says it is impossible, just like logic says Qadr cannót be changed.

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There are people who can accurately predict the future by summoning the jinns, or get knowledge unknown to us. Again, my point exactly, we are not allowed to cross our limits and interact with the jinns. But just because you think it might bring yu closer to Allah does it make it okay to do so?





In another post someone wrote that the dua of people with haram income is not accepted, does that not mean that Allah had preordained for them to earn through unlawful means.
Similarly, before taking a jabb at amnasheikh91 you said that people who make efforts get their duas/qadr effected, but is it not already preordained whether a person would work or not?
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I didnt repeat a single argument, you are just unable accept a simple logic that iam presenting. THAT NOT EVERYTHING IS MEANT TO BE UNDERSTOOD BY US....
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And yest, the tahajud thing, you are constantly proving my point but are not willing to accept that I am right. We are not meant to understand Allah's logic. We cannot understand His power, His plans, or His concept of Time even. For us humans, time is linear. For Allah it isnt. In the same way, we cannot understand the crux of qadr, the difference between the two in the true sense because Allah has not made our minds like that.....
But what ever keeps you happy.




Don't think of it as criticism but you really need to start studying the quran and its tafseer (faheem) to get a better understanding of what I am trying to convey here. Kiev got my point. you didn't it is okay.

 

[amnasheikh99]

yes you did. she is constantly saying there are things that people are not supposed to explore or do not have the ability to do so, and you agreed, but yu are too full of yourself to accept it.
She keeps making one point.
pEople are not supposed to know each and everything, because when we start to get logical, we would keep getting to the essence of everything. Today you are asking about qadr, tomorrow, may be about the stories of the prophets etc.

 

[Ümit]

IT does make sense, I don't know how to enter those quotes like you do, mind telling me, so i can clarify my points as well

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You asked about air, and explained it through the scientific logic. Didn't you? Either you fully use science to explain your arguments, or you use religion. Our knowledge comes from the Quran and Sunnah, and when it has been said in the sunnah that Dua does change Qadr, then why are you getting into the nitty gritty of qadr, how it works etc. There is a possibility that your bright mind might not be made to understand it.

That question pops up in my head automatically when something doesn't seems to add up. And in this case it didn't feel logical because dua that can change qadr did not add up with Allah being all knowing...but we are sure that both are true...so there is something that I was not seeing yet....and that is why I asked.

Of course there is a possibility that my limited mind might not understand...but there is also a possibility that it DO might understand...wouldn't that be great? and besides, if I see that it does get more complicated than I can handle...I always have the option to let it go...but at least I tried...

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Ilm e Ghaib. Science does not believe in Ilm e Ghaib. Us Muslims do. We haven't seen Allah yet we believe in Him. We haven't seen Jinns but we know they exists, so on and so forth. In the same way we have to believe that somethings related to Qadr are beyond our understanding.

here we go again. science is a tool. it doesn't need to believe...just like you do not have muslim hammers. and it turns out that what I was asking was perfectly understandable...I'm glad I asked...so why are you still trying to claim that it is beyond our understanding?

. Because science can't explain the instance of miraaj, should we reject it? Or because it will help you get closer to religion we should start questioning how Allah made the Prophet saww ascend to the heavens, visit Him, the prophets and also lead them in prayers in masjid aL Aqsa.? Logic says it is impossible, just like logic says Qadr cannót be changed.

again...these are miracles you are talking about. I already explaind that miracles are beyond logic so we have to accept them as true and believe in them. Why are you just ignoring everything?

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There are people who can accurately predict the future by summoning the jinns, or get knowledge unknown to us. Again, my point exactly, we are not allowed to cross our limits and interact with the jinns. But just because you think it might bring yu closer to Allah does it make it okay to do so?

no there aren't. because even jinns have no information about the future...they can pass on other information to humans...thats how some palm readers and astro-people and other imposters work...but absolutely no accurate information about someones future.

and where did I claim to interact with jinns? the whole jinn aspect doesn't even exist in science.

In another post someone wrote that the dua of people with haram income is not accepted, does that not mean that Allah had preordained for them to earn through unlawful means.
Similarly, before taking a jabb at amnasheikh91 you said that people who make efforts get their duas/qadr effected, but is it not already preordained whether a person would work or not?

a jabb at amnasheik91? just a minute before I started reactiing to this post she posted:

There is no free will if Allah has already preordained everything..

After all the discussion we had about preordainment, qadr and free will, this is her conclusion. how can you say something as a muslim?

That woman is trying her best to get insulted, and when she does, she plays the victim card.

preordained? of course Allah knew long before that that person would earn his money from unlawful means...but it was that persons personal decision to do that.
similarly, the fact that Allah sees and knows everything does not affect your decision to work or not to work. you still have full control about your free will. Allah just knows your decision before you do...that is all.

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I didnt repeat a single argument, you are just unable accept a simple logic that iam presenting. THAT NOT EVERYTHING IS MEANT TO BE UNDERSTOOD BY US....

You are still repeating your arguments in this very post multiple times. just read back and see for yourself...and I literally said multiple times that some things are beyond our logic and we must accept them as true...which is exactly what you are saying right now...but that is not the real problem. The real problem is that you do not seem to understand when you can use logic and science and when not.

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And yest, the tahajud thing, you are constantly proving my point but are not willing to accept that I am right. We are not meant to understand Allah's logic. We cannot understand His power, His plans, or His concept of Time even. For us humans, time is linear. For Allah it isnt. In the same way, we cannot understand the crux of qadr, the difference between the two in the true sense because Allah has not made our minds like that.....
But what ever keeps you happy.

no one said we could understand Allahs power or his plans etc. about time being linear...that idea is outdated since Einsteins theory but Okay. A lot of people here have tried to you and to amnasheik that it is perfectly understandable...but you keep repeating that it can't....
But what ever keeps you happy.

Don't think of it as criticism but you really need to start studying the quran and its tafseer (faheem) to get a better understanding of what I am trying to convey here. Kiev got my point. you didn't it is okay.

I get Kievs point. and I totally agree with Kiev... You however...I do not know what your point is...you are all over the place...mixing things up...got confused about stuff...ignoring answers...and stubbornly repeating stuff...whatever you are trying to say...is not the same as Kievs point.

 

[wayfarer91]

No no, It is my fault, I tried explaining it to you, when clearly you rmind can't comprehend simple things, my point is the same since day one. There are things we don't understand, and we should not get in the nitty gritty of because our minds are not designed that way, which i explained by quoting several examples, again which ur mind is not able to understand,

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[MENTION=46043]amnasheikh99[/MENTION]
How does her comment make her any less of a muslim? Just because she asked a question? You know the poet she keeps quoting, wrote a poem Shikwa in which he told God that it is us who made your religion, etc etc, and the mullahs branded him as a kafir, he then had to write jawab e shikwa (answer to my complain) to tell the mullahs what he really meant. and that happened in the 20th century.

Hazrat Umar used to question islam, sohail bin omr as well, but they turned out to be one of the best muslims of their time.
Just like u questioned about qadr, she questioned about free will, no need to take ur inability to understand logic and take it out on others.....

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Again, in simple terms


there are things we should not get into Allah's power is beyond our understanding. I quoted examples, u didnt get them so i won't write them again.
Quran/Sunnah is the truth .IF it says dua can change qadr, then it certainly can, regardless of lthe types of qadr there exists.


Allah knows best

 

[wayfarer91]

Einstein propounded a theory, not a law, do you know the difference or should i explain it to you..
Science also says we evolved from homo erectus into homo sapiens.

You are mixing two poles. its okay. don't blame you, recite quran, i will make dua for u,

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Okay, answer me this

I know somebody, in her late 40s. unmarried. Trying for the past 25 years to get married. made every kind of effort and dua, but still, invain. A very religious lady, one of the best women ive known in my life.
So is it pre-ordainment? or free will?

I know another couple, who tried their level best to have kids, but now in their 60s, they know it is not possible, but still keep praying.
what should they think it is?

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you wayfarer91;

so always be kind to each other, Even if you don't agree with them. Know that, Islam preaches tolerance. Your one word can break someone or make them.

Thanks for the reminder.

Blessings,
Eric

 

[Abz2000]

I would like to add a few clarifications that are my opinion - see if it makes sense.

Science doesn't say anything.
It is simply a study and attempt to understand phenomena.
I hope we don't get fooled into making it an idol/false god who some worship and others deny.

Miracles are logical - those of us who accept that - Allah :swt: sets laws and uses those laws to make things happen as He wills - accept this logic.

Jinns are not unscientific, they are bound by laws. Magic is a science, and many magicians (especially those who are immersed in usury and kaafir intelligence services) study these laws and utilise them for worldly gain -at the price of their own souls and those of others (through acceptance of hell and unlawful sacrifices respectively).

Qadr is logical in the sense that Allah :swt: has infinite knowledge, wisdom, and power, however, i belive that it's impossible for humans - even Prophets, angels and jinn- to fully comprehend it.

Aal-e-Imran 3:179

مَّا كَانَ ٱللَّهُ لِيَذَرَ ٱلْمُؤْمِنِينَ عَلَىٰ مَآ أَنتُمْ عَلَيْهِ حَتَّىٰ يَمِيزَ ٱلْخَبِيثَ مِنَ ٱلطَّيِّبِۗ وَمَا كَانَ ٱللَّهُ لِيُطْلِعَكُمْ عَلَى ٱلْغَيْبِ وَلَٰكِنَّ ٱللَّهَ يَجْتَبِى مِن رُّسُلِهِۦ مَن يَشَآءُۖ فَـَٔامِنُوا۟ بِٱللَّهِ وَرُسُلِهِۦۚ وَإِن تُؤْمِنُوا۟ وَتَتَّقُوا۟ فَلَكُمْ أَجْرٌ عَظِيمٌ

Allah will not leave the believers in the state in which ye are now, until He separates what is evil from what is good nor will He disclose to you the secrets of the Unseen . But He chooses of His Messengers (For the purpose) whom He pleases. So believe in Allah. And His messengers: And if ye believe and do right, ye have a reward without measure.

get Quran App:https://goo.gl/w6rESk


There is much scientific research on phenomena which humans are yet unable to comprehend - that doesn't make them illogical, it simply means that we are unable to comprehend the logic.

 

[wayfarer91]

exactly...Thnku my brother

 

[M.I.A.]

It's all about who you are with..

Losers in the hereafter or the successful.

Same applies to the dunya, who and what you do today.. Comes back to you tomorrow.

Unfortunately the more you claim to know the more constrictive the world becomes.. A small place.

And it ain't ever meant to be that way.

The mind is such a thing that you could convince yourself of anything, it's character defining.

 

[wayfarer91]

whaaaaaat?